Lauren Hynde
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Is dreamed a word?
Svenskaflicka
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It has to be, no? "Last night, I dreamed that..." How else would you put it?
Lauren Hynde
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Last night, I dreamt...
I know that technically they're both correct, but dreamed just sounds so weird... I think it's an American English-only variant, but I could be wrong.
I know that technically they're both correct, but dreamed just sounds so weird... I think it's an American English-only variant, but I could be wrong.
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dr_mabeuse
seduce the mind
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Mhari said:*grabs her Grammar Nazi hat again*
I assume you're asking about the use of mood, not tense. I shall proceed accordingly.
"Were" is used in the subjunctive mood. Ones uses it for wishes and in "if" clauses that express conditions that are contrary to fact:
"If I were she, I'd..."
Turn in your nazi armband. It should be:
"If I were her, I'd..."
More than you probably want to know about the subjunctive mood:
http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/061.html
Websters lists both dreamed and dreamt as past tenses of dream.
---dr.M.
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Pure
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"If I were she..." looks likely to be technically correct, but as the Bartelby grammar points out, the nominative or objective choice is very fluid in many examples.
The grammarian cites, for a somewhat different situation, "All debts are cleared between you and I" from Shakespeare, and notes the wierdness of "Who's there?" "It is we."
'If I were her' sounds like what most would say colloquially.
http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/052.html
(pronoun section of the American Heritage grammar.)
Hey! Is it 'lept' or 'leapt' or the latter *pronounced as 'lept.'
J.
---
dr m said to mhari,
Turn in your nazi armband. It should be:
"If I were her, I'd..."
More than you probably want to know about the subjunctive mood:
http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/061.html
Websters lists both dreamed and dreamt as past tenses of dream.
The grammarian cites, for a somewhat different situation, "All debts are cleared between you and I" from Shakespeare, and notes the wierdness of "Who's there?" "It is we."
'If I were her' sounds like what most would say colloquially.
http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/052.html
(pronoun section of the American Heritage grammar.)
Hey! Is it 'lept' or 'leapt' or the latter *pronounced as 'lept.'
J.
---
dr m said to mhari,
Turn in your nazi armband. It should be:
"If I were her, I'd..."
More than you probably want to know about the subjunctive mood:
http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/061.html
Websters lists both dreamed and dreamt as past tenses of dream.
Gary Chambers
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I can hardly believe this thread is still going.
In a matter of weeks I may be back to teaching again, and will have to bone up on my grammar. The reason I note this is that it's interesting how when I have to, I can give myself a quick refresher and get good enough to pass muster as a university faculty member, but as soon as a contract there ends, I go back to feeling the language more than disecting it. I still say some of the worst writing on Earth is academic writing, technically correct but so formal as to be unreadable, and so boring it couldn't inspire a critical or creative thought if the author's life depended on it.
EDIT (afterthought) : BTW what's all this business about words being weird? To be used improperly, that I can see, but weird? It's just too subjective to be worthy of consideration. If readers like your work, then where does weird enter the picture? Some consider the entire erotica genre weird. If you're Lauren, and you get up every morning, look in the mirror and see what we see in her AV's, the entire world would obviously pale to weirdness. So Lauren is forgiven on the basis that her beauty may be a handicap. But the rest of us have to find more constructive ways to critique than simply trashing words for being 'weird'.
In a matter of weeks I may be back to teaching again, and will have to bone up on my grammar. The reason I note this is that it's interesting how when I have to, I can give myself a quick refresher and get good enough to pass muster as a university faculty member, but as soon as a contract there ends, I go back to feeling the language more than disecting it. I still say some of the worst writing on Earth is academic writing, technically correct but so formal as to be unreadable, and so boring it couldn't inspire a critical or creative thought if the author's life depended on it.
EDIT (afterthought) : BTW what's all this business about words being weird? To be used improperly, that I can see, but weird? It's just too subjective to be worthy of consideration. If readers like your work, then where does weird enter the picture? Some consider the entire erotica genre weird. If you're Lauren, and you get up every morning, look in the mirror and see what we see in her AV's, the entire world would obviously pale to weirdness. So Lauren is forgiven on the basis that her beauty may be a handicap. But the rest of us have to find more constructive ways to critique than simply trashing words for being 'weird'.
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Boxlicker101
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Is, Was and Were
Thank you, Pure, for that grammar citation. As I said about Question 7, any of the answers might have been correct, depending on the coolness or former coolness of the person under discussion. Since we have no way of knowing how cool he is or was, the question must be discarded so the best anybody could do would be nine out of nine.
Thank you, Pure, for that grammar citation. As I said about Question 7, any of the answers might have been correct, depending on the coolness or former coolness of the person under discussion. Since we have no way of knowing how cool he is or was, the question must be discarded so the best anybody could do would be nine out of nine.
Boxlicker101
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Pure Said
If I were she..." looks likely to be technically correct
It is technically correct but in this case, I think I would deliberately use the incorrect and use the subjective pronoun because it reads better. I would still say "were" though.
Either "dreamed" or "dreamt" is correct but the former is preferred. I see nothing weird about "dreamed" it is the past tense of "dream", and it is formed by adding the suffix "ed", just like the past tense is formed for most verbs in the English language.
"Leapt" is barely acceptable. "Leaped" is proper.
Polishes monocle, straightens swastika armband and goose steps away
If I were she..." looks likely to be technically correct
It is technically correct but in this case, I think I would deliberately use the incorrect and use the subjective pronoun because it reads better. I would still say "were" though.
Either "dreamed" or "dreamt" is correct but the former is preferred. I see nothing weird about "dreamed" it is the past tense of "dream", and it is formed by adding the suffix "ed", just like the past tense is formed for most verbs in the English language.
"Leapt" is barely acceptable. "Leaped" is proper.
Polishes monocle, straightens swastika armband and goose steps away
gauchecritic
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Context being the modifier; Dreamt and leapt (along with slept, because there isn't a sleeped, although Yorkshire would be slep, no 't') are more properly read as past tense.
Gauche
Gauche
dr_mabeuse
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Boxlicker101 said:
Well I say it's spinach and I say the hell with it.
No, seriously: Assuming "If I were she..." is correct, than "If she were she..." would also be correct, as would be "If they were we..."
I don't know what the rules say, but my ear won't stand for that.
---dr.M.
G
Guest
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Mab., the quite respectable logic you have used does not apply. There is no simple logisitics to language, e.g., irregular verbs, pronunciation, etc.
It's why I too go by sound, instinct, and guesses oft' enough.
Perdita
It's why I too go by sound, instinct, and guesses oft' enough.
Perdita
SlickTony
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My impression is that "dreamt" is British and viewed as slightly archaic in America:
"There are things in Heaven & earth, Horatio, that are undreamt of in your philosopy," but "Last night I dreamed I stood on my head/stuck in the wall of the Murphy bed."
"There are things in Heaven & earth, Horatio, that are undreamt of in your philosopy," but "Last night I dreamed I stood on my head/stuck in the wall of the Murphy bed."
Boxlicker101
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The Good Doctor M said:
Well I say it's spinach and I say the hell with it.
No, seriously: Assuming "If I were she..." is correct, than "If she were she..." would also be correct, as would be "If they were we..."
I don't know what the rules say, but my ear won't stand for that.
I must agree, Doc. The first one is gibberish in writing but spoken, it could make sense. Point to one woman and say "If she" then point to another woman and say "were she", and then finish the sentence, and it would make sense. Neither my ears nor my eyes would stand for the second one either.
Well I say it's spinach and I say the hell with it.
No, seriously: Assuming "If I were she..." is correct, than "If she were she..." would also be correct, as would be "If they were we..."
I don't know what the rules say, but my ear won't stand for that.
I must agree, Doc. The first one is gibberish in writing but spoken, it could make sense. Point to one woman and say "If she" then point to another woman and say "were she", and then finish the sentence, and it would make sense. Neither my ears nor my eyes would stand for the second one either.
dr_mabeuse
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Now let's discuss "toward" and "towards".
---dr.M.
---dr.M.
Boxlicker101
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Now let's discuss "toward" and "towards".
I always thought of "towards" as a non-word, like "irregardless", but I was surprised to find it listed in my dictionary as a variation of "toward". I'm still not going to use it, though.
Is "thwaps" a word?
I always thought of "towards" as a non-word, like "irregardless", but I was surprised to find it listed in my dictionary as a variation of "toward". I'm still not going to use it, though.
Is "thwaps" a word?
Seattle Zack
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The judge himself, James Kilpatrick, ruled on the was/were matter in his column recently (and he tends to side with the Doctor on this one):
If I Were King ... and Almost Dead Ducks
This is what Sheri Miller said: "Nobody knows that we sometimes spend up to 12 hours working on a single word." She is a director of research for the college entrance test known as ACT. She was being interviewed in June by a reporter for The Associated Press. After a pause she added:
"But if my son was taking the test, I wouldn't want that one word to be vague."
WAS taking the test? Ms. Miller's plain vanilla verb attracted the critical eye of John E. Schaefer of Oak Harbor, Wash. In a letter to the Seattle Times, he suggested gently that the dear lady do some research on the subjunctive mode. In a note to me he asks, "Has the subjunctive become obsolete?"
For anyone in the writing business, this is like asking a chef about salt. Opinions are strongly held. The subjunctive is a verb form often used to express something that is contingent, possible, hypothetical, or simply contrary to fact. We use the subjunctive all the time in such familiar phrases as, "If I were you, I'd go to bed." The king in "Camelot" fell into the subjunctive of wish -- he wished "he were in Scotland fishing tonight."
Dedicated subjunctivists will insist passionately that the "were" should be preserved in every such instance. The trouble is, sometimes "was" just sounds better to some ears: "If I was in your fix, I'd send her flowers." Or, "I wish I was 6 feet tall." Or, "The situation in Iraq might be very different if there was a strong leader prepared to replace Saddam."
Right or wrong, the subjunctive plainly is a topic dear to the heart of our correspondent. How is one to reply? One hesitates to speak unkindly of an affection so deeply felt, but ah, sir, the subjunctive mode is a dead duck. Well, almost a dead duck. As far back as 1926 in "Fowler's Modern English Usage," the Venerable Fowler pronounced it moribund. Except in a few easily specified uses, he said, the subjunctive mode is dying.
Vestiges of the subjunctive remain. Go away! Manners be hanged! God save the Republic from the Democrats! The verb form also survives in hypothetical constructions: If wishes were horses, then beggars could ride. Professional grammarians identify such exotic fowls as the mandative subjunctive, the optative subjunctive, the formulaic subjunctive, and the present and past subjunctives. The only one that still matters significantly is the subjunctive of wish, imagination, demand or proposal: "I wish I were in Pocatello, now that summer's here."
Reader Schaefer is not alone in his concern for the vanishing subjunctive. Gayle Lockwood of Salem, Ore., asks about these examples: "If she was (were) older, she could attend the concert." Or, "If she were (was) older, would she attend the concert?" Rebecca Kilpatrick writes to say that she has been bothered for weeks by "I felt as though I was (were) falling asleep."
In each instance, "were" is the better choice, but be not discomfited. No one will call the language police if you decide on "was" instead.
If I Were King ... and Almost Dead Ducks
This is what Sheri Miller said: "Nobody knows that we sometimes spend up to 12 hours working on a single word." She is a director of research for the college entrance test known as ACT. She was being interviewed in June by a reporter for The Associated Press. After a pause she added:
"But if my son was taking the test, I wouldn't want that one word to be vague."
WAS taking the test? Ms. Miller's plain vanilla verb attracted the critical eye of John E. Schaefer of Oak Harbor, Wash. In a letter to the Seattle Times, he suggested gently that the dear lady do some research on the subjunctive mode. In a note to me he asks, "Has the subjunctive become obsolete?"
For anyone in the writing business, this is like asking a chef about salt. Opinions are strongly held. The subjunctive is a verb form often used to express something that is contingent, possible, hypothetical, or simply contrary to fact. We use the subjunctive all the time in such familiar phrases as, "If I were you, I'd go to bed." The king in "Camelot" fell into the subjunctive of wish -- he wished "he were in Scotland fishing tonight."
Dedicated subjunctivists will insist passionately that the "were" should be preserved in every such instance. The trouble is, sometimes "was" just sounds better to some ears: "If I was in your fix, I'd send her flowers." Or, "I wish I was 6 feet tall." Or, "The situation in Iraq might be very different if there was a strong leader prepared to replace Saddam."
Right or wrong, the subjunctive plainly is a topic dear to the heart of our correspondent. How is one to reply? One hesitates to speak unkindly of an affection so deeply felt, but ah, sir, the subjunctive mode is a dead duck. Well, almost a dead duck. As far back as 1926 in "Fowler's Modern English Usage," the Venerable Fowler pronounced it moribund. Except in a few easily specified uses, he said, the subjunctive mode is dying.
Vestiges of the subjunctive remain. Go away! Manners be hanged! God save the Republic from the Democrats! The verb form also survives in hypothetical constructions: If wishes were horses, then beggars could ride. Professional grammarians identify such exotic fowls as the mandative subjunctive, the optative subjunctive, the formulaic subjunctive, and the present and past subjunctives. The only one that still matters significantly is the subjunctive of wish, imagination, demand or proposal: "I wish I were in Pocatello, now that summer's here."
Reader Schaefer is not alone in his concern for the vanishing subjunctive. Gayle Lockwood of Salem, Ore., asks about these examples: "If she was (were) older, she could attend the concert." Or, "If she were (was) older, would she attend the concert?" Rebecca Kilpatrick writes to say that she has been bothered for weeks by "I felt as though I was (were) falling asleep."
In each instance, "were" is the better choice, but be not discomfited. No one will call the language police if you decide on "was" instead.
Lauren Hynde
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Well, when you have two variations that are correct, when both can be properly used, the only way you can decide which one you are going to use is by how it sounds to your ear. There simply is no other way. What I was stating was that to me, when I read or hear 'I dreamed of bunnies', the first thing that pops in my mind 'illiterate fuck', along with shining examples of the application of English language like 'sleeped', 'catched' and 'mouses' (the noun). After a second I remember 'dreamed' is an acceptable variation, but the damage is already done. That word is going to stick out at me every time I read it and distract from whatever you had to say. Which is weird.GaryBob2 said:
dr_mabeuse
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Lauren.Hynde said:
That's the way I feel about the subjunctive 'were'. I was taught that it's correct, and whenever I come across "If I was you...", I wince. Can't help it.
Patrick O'Brian's characters, who speak a very accurate upperclass British English circa 1805 (he had immersed himself in issues of fashionable magazines from the era to learn the style), appear to never use the subjunctive. (They also use ain't a lot.)
For 'dreamed/dreamt', I think this might be an English/American thing, with either word being more or less acceptable in the US. (Maybe we should blame Martin Luther King for his litany of "I dreamed..." statements in his "I have a dream" speech.)
The same thing seems to be happening to the past tense of 'dive', where 'dove' is being nudged aside by 'dived'.
---dr.M.
