Ask The Master

[Saint_Sinner]

WTF?!!!!!!!

I posted earlier in this thread thinking that it was a good idea, that I might be able to learn something, offer something, and help someone.

It has turned into a collosal waste of time..........

I laugh at this.

 

[sigsauerprinces]

i know an extremely wise submissive in her 40's whos mentored quite a few subs and they all turned out beautifully. personally i dont buy this "subs cant mentor" thing. thats like saying subs arent smart enough, or experienced enough...and thats poppycock.

i also personally dont see mentoring as a D/s relationship. D/s is about control, enforcing your own beliefs and guidlines on a sub. Mentoring is more about helping a submissive discover his/her own views and feelings on their submission, and discover what exactly it is that they want, do they want to be a TPE slave, a sub, or just a weekend kinkster, or somewhere in between? a true Mentor will allow the sub to tfind their own answers, while guiding them thru the pitfalls of being new to your submission, such as rushing into D/s relationships without making sure that the Dom/me is safe, or right for them.

 

[ownedsubgal]

i know an extremely wise submissive in her 40's whos mentored quite a few subs and they all turned out beautifully. personally i dont buy this "subs cant mentor" thing. thats like saying subs arent smart enough, or experienced enough...and thats poppycock.

i also personally dont see mentoring as a D/s relationship. D/s is about control, enforcing your own beliefs and guidlines on a sub. Mentoring is more about helping a submissive discover his/her own views and feelings on their submission, and discover what exactly it is that they want, do they want to be a TPE slave, a sub, or just a weekend kinkster, or somewhere in between? a true Mentor will allow the sub to tfind their own answers, while guiding them thru the pitfalls of being new to your submission, such as rushing into D/s relationships without making sure that the Dom/me is safe, or right for them.

personally it would never come from my mouth (or fingers, in this case) that a submissive isn't smart enough, or experienced enough, or wise enough, to do anything. i also disagree with your idea of a D/s relationship. imo D/s relationships are present in some way shape or form in everyone's lives...an employer and their employee, a teacher and a student, etc. i view the mentor/mentee relationship a bit like a teacher/student relationship. the teacher is more knowledgeable and experienced on the subject at hand, and the student's place in the relationship is to learn and to grow into their own from that learning. one person guiding another, one person looking up to another. i just do not see how that relationship can flow naturally between two submissives. although i do know a submissive who mentors other submissives, and who has done so for many years, and many who shout her praise as a mentor, in my eyes, based on her overall personality combined with her absolutely natural skill in leadership positions (and the ease and joy with which she takes up these positions), she is not what i'd consider a "true" submissive in the first place. so, a "submissive" such as the woman i know, would indeed be a wonderful mentor to submissives. but two "true" (by my own definition) submissives...that just would not be logical or fruitful imo.

 

[sigsauerprinces]

personally it would never come from my mouth (or fingers, in this case) that a submissive isn't smart enough, or experienced enough, or wise enough, to do anything. i also disagree with your idea of a D/s relationship. imo D/s relationships are present in some way shape or form in everyone's lives...an employer and their employee, a teacher and a student, etc. i view the mentor/mentee relationship a bit like a teacher/student relationship. the teacher is more knowledgeable and experienced on the subject at hand, and the student's place in the relationship is to learn and to grow into their own from that learning.

and thats what an experienced submissive can give to a novice. the experienced submissive-im talking many many years experience-is more knowledgeable and experienced on the subject at hand-submission, and so is able to mentor and guide the newbie.

if you want to speak in really broad terms, almost any relationship between two ppl can be called a "D/s relationship". that doesnt mean it actually has much in common with a REAL D/s relationship.

one person guiding another, one person looking up to another. i just do not see how that relationship can flow naturally between two submissives. although i do know a submissive who mentors other submissives, and who has done so for many years, and many who shout her praise as a mentor, in my eyes, based on her overall personality combined with her absolutely natural skill in leadership positions (and the ease and joy with which she takes up these positions), she is not what i'd consider a "true" submissive in the first place. so, a "submissive" such as the woman i know, would indeed be a wonderful mentor to submissives. but two "true" (by my own definition) submissives...that just would not be logical or fruitful imo.

i guess it all depends on what you consider a "true" submissive. i personally believe one can be a "true" submissve and also-guess what-have morals..values..exercise moral judgement..and also have the strength, knowledge, and other capabilities neccessary to mentor a new submissive.

besides, no matter how honorable the Master is, for a new submissive, her feelings of submission can be very strong, and it is really easy for a new sub to get attached to the first Dominant she encounters in her life. this can happen with her mentor, too, even if there is no play going on at all. having one submissive (who is qualified of course) mentor another avoids this pitfall, tho i do also think its possible for a male dominant to mentor a female submissive.

i apologize for using the examples male dom and female sub-of course i know there can be female doms, male subs, and about 50 different variations

bottom line, i feel very strongly that having one sub mentor another, like i said, IF the mentor is qualified, can be a wonderful thing.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Have to agree osg, submissives are unique. Does your statement then infer Dominants aren't? I so don't agree with your outlook on submissives not being able to mentor other submissives, or as you put it 'true' submissives. If a true submissive means someone who is so devoid of direction of their own choices they fall at the knees of anyone who commands it, I daresay no amount of mentoring is going to help them, or at the least turn the mentor grey in the process. I have yet to meet a Dominant who welcomes a sub who they know once their back is turned will submit to the next person to walk through the door, without the Dominant's instruction to do so. Tends to devalue the submission significantly, and foster a lack of trust over time. As most here have said in the past, being a submissive does not mean you have no ability to think, nor that you submit to anyone who crosses your path.

D/s is not present in the everyday community, as in teacher/student etc. A teacher/student relationship is just that...one teaches, one learns, and sometimes the teacher will learn from the student....but it is nothing to do with D/s. There is no dominantion, and no submission, and I suggest if there is the teacher perhaps should be investigated and not in a teaching position. Same goes for your idea of employer/employee being a D/s relationship. Ever hear of sexual harrasment legislation etc.? I can only assume your view of the world is coloured very differently than most others, and to some extent skewed by your own experiences.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

RR is handsome, international, and knows where to smoke illegally in bars.

I'd also put forward that we're actually discussing something of merit here, and I do think that submissives/bottoms are qualified to mentor other submissives AND novice Dominants. If I ignored everything told to me with any authority by someone who's bottomed or submitted at some point, I'd still be in the ignorant dark ages of my own Mastery.

Put that in pipe and smoke illegally in front of Bloomberg.

 

[Kajira Callista]

RR is handsome, international, and knows where to smoke illegally in bars.

I'd also put forward that we're actually discussing something of merit here, and I do think that submissives/bottoms are qualified to mentor other submissives AND novice Dominants. If I ignored everything told to me with any authority by someone who's bottomed or submitted at some point, I'd still be in the ignorant dark ages of my own Mastery.

Put that in pipe and smoke illegally in front of Bloomberg.

I have to agree. There are alot of subs who know a whole lot more then alot of Dominants. We should be learning from each other no matter what the role. To add i would like to point out something overlooked. A "seasoned" submissive understands all the mixed up in a rush feelings a newbie has. They have been there and learned from it already. I think in alot of online lit....its called sub frenzy, which also happens when subs are w/out a Dom or have been released. The understanding of emotions involved is what IMHO makes an experienced sub a better mentor. I kind of thing in that type of situation the natural reaction for a Dominant would be to control all that instead of fellow submissive understanding and showing the newbie that we all go thru these things...helping them find their own solutions. A Dominant mentoring is only teaching a sub to be dependant on a Dominant for answers...which im pretty sure will not always be the answer in a subs life being that its not always the case in the begining that we are under a Dominants control. A submissive mentoring helps the newbie become aware of her needs and be dependant on herself till she finds the right One for her to give up that power to. Hope i made a little sense here...waiting for the coffee to be done.

 

[catalina_francisco]

You go, big bro!

Thanks LB.

F.

 

[taipa]

ok, here goes

i first started looking into BDSM over a year ago, joined a community board and listened to talking, introduced myself, ended up talking to a few people and after a while met with one who said he was a Master. i was barely able to walk for the next two weeks as there wasnt one inch on my body that he didnt beat with a cane, from the bottom of my feet to my shoulders.
i take full responsibility for this, for not reading, researching, knowing the right questions to ask, what to look for and to say the least i was careful the next time around...but not careful enough.
The next Dominant turned out to be a gambler and serious drug user. He lost his house, and i became suspicious, i started going in debt, once i tried pulling away, he became more controlling, but it did end on as a positive note as possible for the circumstances.
Taking another break for 5 months, i then looked again, this time being very choosy, asking many many questions, paying attention, watching for any contradictions and when found, picking apart these contradictions.
He contacted me, He was respectful in every way, honest, asking honesty back, questioning and answering ALL my questions, patient. Since then i have met His slave and we have bonded, becoming slut sisters...but even now, i still hold parts of myself back and will. Slowly i am learning to trust T/them more and more, but it isn't the easiest process and i don't think should be. As i told him once, it isn't that i do not believe what his slave tells me, but that i would be loyal to my Master also and expect nothing less from her towards Him.
Nothing has been contradictory so far between the T/two of them or alone, she has been a gold mine of advice and support as well as He and T/they are both very caring people.
Am i being overcautious because of my previous experiences? Perhaps, but then again, not...
taipa

 

[ownedsubgal]

Have to agree osg, submissives are unique. Does your statement then infer Dominants aren't? I so don't agree with your outlook on submissives not being able to mentor other submissives, or as you put it 'true' submissives. If a true submissive means someone who is so devoid of direction of their own choices they fall at the knees of anyone who commands it, I daresay no amount of mentoring is going to help them, or at the least turn the mentor grey in the process. I have yet to meet a Dominant who welcomes a sub who they know once their back is turned will submit to the next person to walk through the door, without the Dominant's instruction to do so. Tends to devalue the submission significantly, and foster a lack of trust over time. As most here have said in the past, being a submissive does not mean you have no ability to think, nor that you submit to anyone who crosses your path.

D/s is not present in the everyday community, as in teacher/student etc. A teacher/student relationship is just that...one teaches, one learns, and sometimes the teacher will learn from the student....but it is nothing to do with D/s. There is no dominantion, and no submission, and I suggest if there is the teacher perhaps should be investigated and not in a teaching position. Same goes for your idea of employer/employee being a D/s relationship. Ever hear of sexual harrasment legislation etc.? I can only assume your view of the world is coloured very differently than most others, and to some extent skewed by your own experiences.

Catalina

my belief is that D/s, and therefore D/s relationships, are present all throughout life, in some form or other. no i did not say that i believe a teacher/student, or employer/employee relationship is precisely like a romantic relationship between a lifestyle submissive and lifestyle Dominant, but i do believe it is a type of Dominant/submissive exchange. a situation where one person not only has more power than the other, but where that person's job/duty is to give proper direction and guidance. however if one's idea of D/s has nothing to do with it simply being the natural order of things, and is rather something one makes a conscious decision to be and do, then obviously such a person would not agree, and that is fine. it's simply my opinion (and nothing more than that) that one who can take a dominant position...and by dominant position i mean guiding, directing, managing, etc...with ease and comfort, is not a person i'd view as submissive in the first place. my own mentor was a Dominant, and it was actually quite some time before i even learned that there were submissives out there being mentored by other submissives. i did not understand it then, i do not understand it now, but as my Master tells me, i do not need to understand everything. one point where i agree with sigsauer, is that there is a chance of a certain type of exploring submissive who can develop a romantic attachment to their Dominant mentor, since it is such an intimate relationship.

as to a true submissive not being able to think, i would never imply such a thing. but that is the way many assume a submissive must be, if she is the type who submits out of instinct and not to any one specific person (or specific people only). she (sorry to be sexist here) must be a mindless, brainless doormat of a person. all i can say is that that is a false assumption. it is also false that an honorable and true Dominant would not desire such a submissive for their very own; likewise it's false that the drive to submit to all devalues one's submission in any way.

 

[catalina_francisco]

as to a true submissive not being able to think, i would never imply such a thing. but that is the way many assume a submissive must be, if she is the type who submits out of instinct and not to any one specific person (or specific people only). she (sorry to be sexist here) must be a mindless, brainless doormat of a person. all i can say is that that is a false assumption. it is also false that an honorable and true Dominant would not desire such a submissive for their very own; likewise it's false that the drive to submit to all devalues one's submission in any way.

With all due respect, is it instinctual or opportunistic? You have mentioned often your Master will not allow you to even go to the shop alone, insisting he or a trusted person accompany you everywhere, because he knows you will be unable to prevent yourself submitting to anyone who crosses your path as that is how you are. IMO this sounds more opportunistic in that he came into your life and took you, and now ensures no other has the same opportunity. I do get confused though because while you say you are incapable of stopping yourself submitting to anyone who asks you to do something, and you really can't protect yourself against those who might take advantage of this, you also say you took time to get to know him and decided as a Master he was right for you. Doesn't that mean you made a choice and exercised your ability to submit or not submit, both to him and to others who must have crossed your path while you were getting to know him?

Catalina

 

[ownedsubgal]

With all due respect, is it instinctual or opportunistic? You have mentioned often your Master will not allow you to even go to the shop alone, insisting he or a trusted person accompany you everywhere, because he knows you will be unable to prevent yourself submitting to anyone who crosses your path as that is how you are. IMO this sounds more opportunistic in that he came into your life and took you, and now ensures no other has the same opportunity. I do get confused though because while you say you are incapable of stopping yourself submitting to anyone who asks you to do something, and you really can't protect yourself against those who might take advantage of this, you also say you took time to get to know him and decided as a Master he was right for you. Doesn't that mean you made a choice and exercised your ability to submit or not submit, both to him and to others who must have crossed your path while you were getting to know him?

Catalina

Catalina, i made the conscious choice and well thought out decision to give MYSELF to my Master. to give him all of me, everything, inside and out. that was something i chose and chose happily. as for the act of submitting to someone, no i do not choose that. but in my world anyway, submitting to someone and belonging to someone are two entirely different ballgames. for you it may be different. could some other man have come into my life and proclaimed me as his and demand that i stay with him, live with him, serve him, etc.? yes, that could have happened. would that man have truly owned me? no. something else i should make clear, my Master and i fell in love entirely by surprise and accident, neither of us was looking for "someone special" at that time, and certainly neither of us looked at the other in "that" way. we weren't each other's types (or so we thought, lol). so there was no period where we were "dating". i actually never dated anyone to be honest. when i was getting to know Daddy, and developing a friendship with him, i was seeing other Dominants (and non Dominants) casually. and i continued to have casual relationships with others right up until the very moment i became Daddy's slave, and of course from that point on my actions and life were restricted to his wishes. as to instinct vs. opportunity, a natural instinct can be restricted. to use an extreme analogy, one may have an instinct to kill, but placed in a cell alone the instinct cannot be acted upon. it is the same with my instinct to submit.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Re: WTF?!!!!!!!

I posted earlier in this thread thinking that it was a good idea, that I might be able to learn something, offer something, and help someone.

It has turned into a collosal waste of time..........

I laugh at this.

Stick around bro; a few gems of wisdom may turn up somewhere in the reams of compulsive verbiage.

 

[rosco rathbone]

why is it bad for her to flirt with someone who pushes her sub buttons?

Just beware. If I could be there to monitor every flirtation and keep every new sub out of trouble, I would...but I can't. So young submissives are unfortunately left to the powers of their own judgement. I think a more experienced sub CAN be a help here, dont get me wrong.

When it comes to mentoring, you are simply misunderstanding the meaning of the term. Never misunderstand me to say that young submissives should not seek help from their sisters....in fact, you couldn't prevent them...it's what women (and submssive women in particular!) do.

WhenI say mentor, I mean "act as a stand-in dominant" with final say on the large, crucial decisions. No real master has time to actually master more than a very very very few slaves. Probably no more than 2 at best, so he doesnt' have the energy to pay attention in detail to all the people who need mentoring. However, he can judge and rule on certain very important issues such as choice of master, that can affect a sub's whole life--for good or ill.

Submissives, the kind that need real total power exchange, are very likely to make bad decisions when their brains are clouded by fogs emitting from the womb and the heart. The reason that an experienced master must act as mentor and not another submissive is that ONE he knows the ways of mastery and can thereby judge another master...looking carefully into his emails and practices, sitting in perhaps on some phone calls, even meeting in person...and TWO (more important) he knows how to ENFORCE the call he makes with the submissive. This is key. WHen she meets someone who has really "got" the patter of mastery without the real "stuff", she may totally fall for him and believe you me, it can take the full force of a master's will and persistence to turn her aside from what is wrong and bad for her. THIS is why I cannot take on more than a couple of mentees. I would be accepting responsibility for biting off more than I could chew.

SO, in summary: go and seek the advice of other experiences submissives...but seek a master for a mentor.

 

[rosco rathbone]

no questions for "the Master", i just wanted to make two comments:

1. Rosco, i dig your avatars ; and
2. i agree with your point about a submissive not necessarily being appropriate to mentor another submissive. for one, all submissives are unique, and with one submissive mentoring another, there is a risk, however unintentional, of the mentor submissive pushing their own unique brand of submission on the mentee. but more worrisome than that, imo, is that the position of mentor is a Dominant position...a mentor advises, leads. a mentee listens, learns, looks up to the mentor for guidance. a D/s relationship in itself, basically. and personally i do not see how that can happen successfully or sincerely between two actual submissives. now a learning submissive having a submissive friend, someone to talk with who can understand and relate, i think that is a wonderful thing. but when it comes to one's mentor, i personally don't feel another submissive would be best. but hey, everyone's different. *shrug*

OSG: You are right on the money. I've noticed that you have a good little head on your shoulders and as I've read your posts over time, I've seen that you know what is what; for the most part, and I urge you to help and counsel other young submissives. (YOu probably already do!)

glad you like the av...I call it "oral servitude" (my fave!! )

rosco

 

[Kajira Callista]

Just beware. If I could be there to monitor every flirtation and keep every new sub out of trouble, I would...but I can't. So young submissives are unfortunately left to the powers of their own judgement. I think a more experienced sub CAN be a help here, dont get me wrong.

When it comes to mentoring, you are simply misunderstanding the meaning of the term. Never misunderstand me to say that young submissives should not seek help from their sisters....in fact, you couldn't prevent them...it's what women (and submssive women in particular!) do.

WhenI say mentor, I mean "act as a stand-in dominant" with final say on the large, crucial decisions. No real master has time to actually master more than a very very very few slaves. Probably no more than 2 at best, so he doesnt' have the energy to pay attention in detail to all the people who need mentoring. However, he can judge and rule on certain very important issues such as choice of master, that can affect a sub's whole life--for good or ill.

Submissives, the kind that need real total power exchange, are very likely to make bad decisions when their brains are clouded by fogs emitting from the womb and the heart. The reason that an experienced master must act as mentor and not another submissive is that ONE he knows the ways of mastery and can thereby judge another master...looking carefully into his emails and practices, sitting in perhaps on some phone calls, even meeting in person...and TWO (more important) he knows how to ENFORCE the call he makes with the submissive. This is key. WHen she meets someone who has really "got" the patter of mastery without the real "stuff", she may totally fall for him and believe you me, it can take the full force of a master's will and persistence to turn her aside from what is wrong and bad for her. THIS is why I cannot take on more than a couple of mentees. I would be accepting responsibility for biting off more than I could chew.

SO, in summary: go and seek the advice of other experiences submissives...but seek a master for a mentor.

i used to almost like you darling. Im now trying to figure out if you started this thread as a way of pointing out to ppl that a Master like you are making yourself seem is one that they should beware of or if you are really like this and they should beware of you.

 

[rosco rathbone]

Re: ok, here goes

i first started looking into BDSM over a year ago, joined a community board and listened to talking, introduced myself, ended up talking to a few people and after a while met with one who said he was a Master. i was barely able to walk for the next two weeks as there wasnt one inch on my body that he didnt beat with a cane, from the bottom of my feet to my shoulders.
i take full responsibility for this, for not reading, researching, knowing the right questions to ask, what to look for and to say the least i was careful the next time around...but not careful enough.
The next Dominant turned out to be a gambler and serious drug user. He lost his house, and i became suspicious, i started going in debt, once i tried pulling away, he became more controlling, but it did end on as a positive note as possible for the circumstances.
Taking another break for 5 months, i then looked again, this time being very choosy, asking many many questions, paying attention, watching for any contradictions and when found, picking apart these contradictions.
He contacted me, He was respectful in every way, honest, asking honesty back, questioning and answering ALL my questions, patient. Since then i have met His slave and we have bonded, becoming slut sisters...but even now, i still hold parts of myself back and will. Slowly i am learning to trust T/them more and more, but it isn't the easiest process and i don't think should be. As i told him once, it isn't that i do not believe what his slave tells me, but that i would be loyal to my Master also and expect nothing less from her towards Him.
Nothing has been contradictory so far between the T/two of them or alone, she has been a gold mine of advice and support as well as He and T/they are both very caring people.
Am i being overcautious because of my previous experiences? Perhaps, but then again, not...
taipa

I'm sorry you had such a painful learning experience. Unfortunately, it's a tell subs tell time and again. YOu were lucky. Recall the 12 step phrase I mention above....jails, institutions and death.

It is so sad to me that young submissives, full of love and the desire to serve and please, must so often take care of themselves without a mentor. It is just the law of the world....submissive women, so plentiful in this world, must force themselves to be strong and to take control of their own lives and many of them are emotionally deformed by this.

There are plenty who are able to play the game of submission in the bedroom, Often they'll tell you that they are in 247 or lifestyle relationships!! These women don't concern me. It's the women who NEED to give up power with every inch of their being; yet who must maintain the upper hand, in relationships with immature and abusive men, who use the nurturung subs as "mommies". THese men are often tied to subs by ties of children and marriage, thus FORCING them, for their own survival into a role for which they are profoundly unsuited.

rosco

 

[rosco rathbone]

RR is handsome, international, and knows where to smoke illegally in bars.

I'd also put forward that we're actually discussing something of merit here, and I do think that submissives/bottoms are qualified to mentor other submissives AND novice Dominants. If I ignored everything told to me with any authority by someone who's bottomed or submitted at some point, I'd still be in the ignorant dark ages of my own Mastery.

Put that in pipe and smoke illegally in front of Bloomberg.

As if I am going to listen to anyone dressed in rubber devil suit with weird antennae like protuberances sticking out of the head of it.

Mentory is mentory and mastery is mastery, end of story.

 

[rosco rathbone]

i used to almost like you darling. Im now trying to figure out if you started this thread as a way of pointing out to ppl that a Master like you are making yourself seem is one that they should beware of or if you are really like this and they should beware of you.

You look like a smart cookie. I'm sure that if ye seek: ye shall find.

Good luck finding a master. They ARE out there!

 

[sunfox]

Au contraire, Pure. I like feisty subs with Annelize's character. The fact that she doesn't know what she is talking about (and can't be blamed for it...how would she know the ways of a Master as a submissive??) doesn't detract from her charm. Hopefully she has a Dominant who knows how to command, "claws in , cat!".

Pure, submissives are basically children who have never grown up. They sometimes function well in the world (although often not--more on this anon), but they are almost always distinguished by a lack of control over deep feelings. These same feelings, stirred by false masters, can rise up and destroy them--I've seen it happen with my own eyes, time and time again. Note that it is this same control...over his OWN feelings...which is the hallmark of the master. I've said it again and I'll say it before: You can never control another....until you can control yourself.

I'm fairly certain that Anelize's Master is well capable of appreciating her spirit, and not being threatened by it, as apparently you are by any sub who doesn't fall at your feet and beg to be immersed in your vast wisdom.

That said, all I can say to the second paragraph here is... wow. That's seriously the biggest, stinkiest, most steaming pile of bullshit I've ever had the fortune to get a laugh out of. And I needed it.

This 'child who has never grown up' and 'can't control her deep feelings' spent the night with a sick child, comforting her, and controlling her desperate urge to wake up every doctor in the city even though she knew it was a simple stomach bug. The fact that someone is submissive does -not- make them a child, or someone in need of a daddy figure, or even someone to make decisions for them. The desire for a Dominant does not in any way make someone incompetent, and I find it not only offensive, but simply false for you to imply that.

Perhaps you can only feel truly Dominant over someone who is too damaged to take care of themselves... but I doubt that is a need that most Dominants share.

Edited because I simply spelled Anelize like rr did. Shame on me. Guess I'll have to let Anelize spank me.

 

[sunfox]

Submissives, the kind that need real total power exchange, are very likely to make bad decisions when their brains are clouded by fogs emitting from the womb and the heart.

I bet this is a big problem for the male submissives. Damn those troublesome wombs.

 

[rosco rathbone]

This 'child who has never grown up' and 'can't control her deep feelings' spent the night with a sick child, comforting her, and controlling her desperate urge to wake up every doctor in the city even though she knew it was a simple stomach bug. The fact that someone is submissive does -not- make them a child, or someone in need of a daddy figure, or even someone to make decisions for them. The desire for a Dominant does not in any way make someone incompetent, and I find it not only offensive, but simply false for you to imply that.

I think you may have written this before reading the other posts I wrote, Sunfox. You need to take a minute and familiarize yourself with my thoughts.

SUbmissive women DO need "Daddy figures" (your term); there you are dead wrong. A "Daddy figure" would have calmed your panic at the thought of your child's illness for instance. THat's what he does...assesses situations calmly and takes control, leading with the brain, not the heart (in a crisis that is).

HOwever, many if not most submissive women (those not lucky enough to have found a dominant master early in the game) have had to fend for themselves and their children and often have had to "mother" the grown men in their lives...the husbands and boyfriends who leeched off of the natural caring qualities of these women while giving nothing in return. Some of these jokers may even have called themselves --gasp--"dominants".

Submissive women are not stupid and not helpless. They take care of themselves and their own. It is merely a tragedy that so many of them have to face this world alone without a stern and loving guiding arm; that would let them relax their vigilance and open up the true nature of their total submission.

I have also seen submissives fall into horrible depressions as they attempted to cope with the arrows of fate without guidance. THEY are not to be blamed for their nature, they do their best. I wish I knew what it is that makes the men of our culture so weak, so eager to pass responsibility to women. If I knew the answer to that, I'd be able to tell you who is to blame.

rosco

 

[rosco rathbone]

I bet this is a big problem for the male submissives. Damn those troublesome wombs.

I am not qualified to speak about male submissives. They exist, but their problems are another realm. I do not know whence they come from or where they are going.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I am not qualified to speak about male submissives. They exist, but their problems are another realm. I do not know whence they come from or where they are going.

Interesting you see submissives as people who have problems. Does that, and your lamenting the fact over and over, you can't help all the submissives in the world make you a people pleaser? Sounds like it, and not in the empathic sense as much as a desperation to be seen as their saviour and guiding light, even though you seem to feel their submission (without your guidance to correct their problems) is the result of being misguided and in need of someone to help them. If that is so, how can any submissive expect to be respected and valued by you, not to mention guided in an appropriate and responsible manner? IMHO it seems more a recipe for abuse.


Catalina

 

[Pure]

Given a natural division of people and leaving aside the 'switch' problem, who is to explain the nature of the service, how A exercizes power over B?

Consider the passengers in an jetliner. They may of course learn from each other. The Frequent Flyer says "You can expect lunch in two hours." Even warns, "This airline doesn't keep track of your luggage." Or "Its attendants are obnoxious."

But even putting all heads together won't render them able to fly(pilot) the jet liner, or understand first hand the dynamics of flying, or what happens in an air emergency. Not only are they without expertise in flying(piloting), but it's obvious they will never gain it.

{Added, 2-24-5:30 pm est}** Should they want to know about the "source" of their experiences, the 'why', the pilot(s) only is in a position to explain [mentor]. Another passsenger can say, "Chew gum, to help your ears adjust," and the flight attendant can say, "A mask will drop, in the event of..." But the fundamentals of the situation--speed, altitude, atmospheric pressure-- are the domain of the pilot to explain as far as he chooses, and the passengers can absorb.

In that sense, the passengers are forever 'dependent.'

This isn't a slur*. It's not a 'failing' of the passengers. It's a fact. They may, in the plane, sit at laptops drafting budgets for or directing million-dollar enterprises, but they, in a crucial respect, are dependents.

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*or 'recipe for abuse'
**my apologies to Francisco, who replied to the early version; but his point is unaffected.