Authors- how do you deal with objectification?

[EmilyMiller]

Em,
I wasn't trying to shame anyone. I wasn't trying to suggest you, or anybody shouldn't write what you want...
I was trying to express my own concerns.
I have written some pretty squiggy shit myself. Squirming uncomfortably... LOL
My view is.... We do, unitentionally add to the quagmire. For the people who sit out on the fringes and read what I write, I wonder. Am I encouraging, or fuelling their unhealthy attitudes towards women???
God, I hope not, but I do wonder, and cringe when I hit submit...
I'm not moralising, or pointing the finger. I am as bad as anybody in here I promise.
Like @onehitwanda said. I'm pervy as well. I like to admire gorgeous sexy women. I'm only human... I try not to be obvious... Sunglasses are great.
Anyway, just wanted to say. I wasn't accusing, or criticizing. Merely pontificating...

Cagivagurl

I didn’t think you were criticizing, hun.

I have two stories that give me pause like you say:

1. Dungeon 101 - which was written as satire / a critique of rape porn, but ended up being enjoyed by some who are fans of women brutalizing men
2. Hood & Hole - which is a quite ugly story with little in the way of characterization or plot - it was me exorcizing a dream / nightmare that I used to have a few times and then had again just before writing it

My problem with the first is that it presents sex negatively - a punishment for a MMC who is admittedly a douche. Though, given what I was satirizing he ends up enjoying it - like that would happen!

My problem with the second is it pushes right up to the non-con line (maybe just past), which isn’t really me.

So why not pull them? For D101 it’s as I liked my use of 1984 as a scaffold - maybe shallow of me. For H&H (i just realized I have two H&Hs - you were kind enough to help with the other one) I think it’s just it feels good to have it out of my skull.

Em

 

[Cagivagurl]

I think, just like anything else, there's good and bad when it comes to porn.

Is there a lot of degradation demeaning, objectifying? Absolutely.

But personally I think a lot of the negativaty surrounding the consumption of porn stems from archaic social structures that still to this day shame us for our sexuality, guilt us into repression, and condemn us for expressing it.

I think so much of the ugliness surrounding, not just porn, but the treatment of women in general, would fade if we as a society could just stop with the guilt and shame of it all.

Teach people sex is normal, healthy. Take away the shame and stigma.

Stop with the double standards. Women aren't whores just because they enjoy sex.

Okay before I rant further...

I see a lot of sex POSITIVE stories here too. Ones that don't objectify. And those are the types I gravitate to.

I don't have a solution for the problems surrounding porn or sexuality views or treatment of women.

I just try to be a decent human being. And hopefully my writing reflects that.

Decent human being is a good place to start.
Love that sentiment.
Cagivagurl

 

[Cagivagurl]

Wh

I didn’t think you were criticizing, hun.

I have two stories that give me pause like you say:

1. Dungeon 101 - which was written as satire / a critique of rape porn, but ended up being enjoyed by some who are fans of women brutalizing men
2. Hood & Hole - which is a quite ugly story with little in the way of characterization or plot - it was me exorcizing a dream / nightmare that I used to have a few times and then had again just before writing it

My problem with the first is that it presents sex negatively - a punishment for a MMC who is admittedly a douche. Though, given what I was satirizing he ends up enjoying it - like that would happen!

My problem with the second is it pushes right up to the non-con line (maybe just past), which isn’t really me.

So why not pull them? For D101 it’s as I liked my use of 1984 as a scaffold - maybe shallow of me. For H&H (i just realized I have two H&Hs - you were kind enough to help with the other one) I think it’s just it feels good to have it out of my skull.

Em

at we write, is a bit like our history.
Nothing should be deleted, they are part of you...
Part of what makes you a wonderful person today...
I have several stories that stepped over the line. I didn't think so when they were written, but looking back. They're awful, and I'm sort of ashamed of them.
I leave them up as a reminder. "I'm better than that."
Like every person who creates something... We aren't always proud.
I just submitted a story which I am proud of, it will score badly, and will be perceived badly. I didn't write it to win friends, or score well.

We write, we create, we ask questions, we hopefully entertain.So long as we extract as much enjoyment as we possibly can from the process.

You write good stories, and I hope they are read by many.

Cagivagurl

 

[MillieDynamite]

One would hope the male worshipers would be hard! Rock fucking hard! Not that it would matter to the goddess.

Why do I suspect that wouldn't be hard...

 

[Djmac1031]

Wh

at we write, is a bit like our history.
Nothing should be deleted, they are part of you...
Part of what makes you a wonderful person today...
I have several stories that stepped over the line. I didn't think so when they were written, but looking back. They're awful, and I'm sort of ashamed of them.
I leave them up as a reminder. "I'm better than that."
Like every person who creates something... We aren't always proud.
I just submitted a story which I am proud of, it will score badly, and will be perceived badly. I didn't write it to win friends, or score well.

We write, we create, we ask questions, we hopefully entertain.So long as we extract as much enjoyment as we possibly can from the process.

You write good stories, and I hope they are read by many.

Cagivagurl

I've got one story I still have mixed feelings on; A Karen Gets Her Comeuppance.

Originally intended as satire, wound up being a dark non con that made me uncomfortable enough to tack on an alternate ending that changed it to consensual role play.

I'm not embarrassed by the story. But not exactly proud of it either. But I leave it up for whatever it's worth.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I believe we can be both subjects and objects, and that there's no necessary conflict between the two. I don't believe there's anything inherently wrong with person A looking at person B as an object of sexual desire or beauty. It becomes a problem if this is the only way we think--if we look at other people only as objects for our desire and fail to recognize their humanity and agency that is equal to our own.

Fucking hell, Simon. Stop posting shit I agree with wontcha!

Em

 

[SimonDoom]

Fucking hell, Simon. Stop posting shit I agree with wontcha!

Em

The interesting question isn't why you agree with me, but why you feel that you SHOULD disagree with me. Think about that.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Even as a smut artist, I cringe every time I see something in the media or comments here about unsolicited sexual advances, objectification of women, or sexism. It really bothers me and sometimes I wonder if I am contributing more to the problem than fixing it by writing smut. My question is- to both male and female writers- do you deal with similar issues and how do you handle it?

It comes up for me now and then, though more often along racial lines than gender. I often write about small-i interracial relationships, which is partly just the world I live in and partly because there's interesting story fodder in different backgrounds. And yes, there are some groups I find visually attractive, and that has occasionally influenced what I write.

But objectifying people via racial stereotypes is a thing (the submissive Asian woman, the sex-crazed Black stud) and that's not something I want to drift into.

Some things I do:

- read stuff written by people from the groups I'm writing about, to get a feel for what they find objectifying
- where possible, get feedback from people in those groups
- make sure that those characters have desires of their own that don't always line up with my protagonist's, and that these desires influence the story

As Fury Road put it:

 

[Zootonius]

One would hope the male worshipers would be hard! Rock fucking hard! Not that it would matter to the goddess.

Perhaps that hardness is a measure of a goddess's godliness.

 

[Blind_Justice]

I think there's a clear line between writing erotica in a respectful way and being sexist. The moment terms like "slut", "whore" or - my personal favorite - "cum dumpster" get thrown around, that line has been crossed and the writer's still accelerating.

For some reason I've been called a transphobe despite my futanari characters being as well-rounded as anyone else I write. Especially "The Rembrandt Legacy" did draw some nasty PMs in that regard. Just because some of my characters have a narrow view on them doesn't mean I have. The age-old "separating fiction from the writer" thing.

 

[Zootonius]

Here I am, trying to finish up a wild sex scene, and I keep coming back to this thread!

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Here I am, trying to finish up a wild sex scene, and I keep coming back to this thread!

Get your priorities straight, and go write naughty things.

 

[EmilyMiller]

The interesting question isn't why you agree with me, but why you feel that you SHOULD disagree with me. Think about that.

Coz it’s fun?

Em

 

[EmilyMiller]

I think there's a clear line between writing erotica in a respectful way and being sexist. The moment terms like "slut", "whore" or - my personal favorite - "cum dumpster" get thrown around, that line has been crossed and the writer's still accelerating.

For some reason I've been called a transphobe despite my futanari characters being as well-rounded as anyone else I write. Especially "The Rembrandt Legacy" did draw some nasty PMs in that regard. Just because some of my characters have a narrow view on them doesn't mean I have. The age-old "separating fiction from the writer" thing.

I self-describe as a cum slut. It’s a badge of honor. I take it as meaning a woman with very few sexual hang-ups. One who will enjoy sex for what it is, a wonderful gift. As ever, words can mean different things to different people and in different circumstances.

I’ve been called a whore by people with real hatred. And been called it by partners with real affection.

Em

 

[Blind_Justice]

I self-describe as a cum slut. It’s a badge of honor. I take it as meaning a woman with very few sexual hang-ups. One who will enjoy sex for what it is, a wonderful gift. As ever, words can mean different things to different people and in different circumstances.

I’ve been called a whore by people with real hatred. And been called it by partners with real affection.

Em

I didn't mean to take away your badge of honor. I was more looking at the bigots labeling women with these terms in a disparaging way while praising men doing the same thing with positive appelations. It's gettin' late.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I self-describe as a cum slut. It’s a badge of honor. I take it as meaning a woman with very few sexual hang-ups. One who will enjoy sex for what it is, a wonderful gift. As ever, words can mean different things to different people and in different circumstances.

I’ve been called a whore by people with real hatred. And been called it by partners with real affection.

Em

I think the challenge with that language is the words are charged, and we don't always know where they are coming from.
George Carlin did an interview where they asked him about the N-word, and his thoughts on how black comedians could use it, but he couldn't.
His answer was that the word isn't the problem, the problem is what's behind it. That when Eddie Murphy uses it, you know there isn't anything behind it, but with him you can't know for sure, because you don't really know him.

I kind of apply the same principle. I'm not a fan of those words, and I don't think I've ever used them in my writing. Knowing what Em just said, seeing them in her stories won't bother me, but if I don't know where it's coming from I'm going to assume the worst.

 

[intim8]

I wonder if I am contributing more to the problem than fixing it by writing smut.

It sounds like you're helping by writing smut, if your smut conveys the values you describe. The world needs more smut of all kinds that has real people in it. More concretely rendered examples of hot sex that comes from treating people as complete people.

As my bio says:
"...a universe where people know, or quickly learn, that intimacy is way more important than getting off, and that the two together are the most powerful force in the world. I try to write stories where the important stuff happens above the neck, the fun stuff happens below the belt, and the two are deeply connected."

I don't always live up to it, but I try.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I think the challenge with that language is the words are charged, and we don't always know where they are coming from.
George Carlin did an interview where they asked him about the N-word, and his thoughts on how black comedians could use it, but he couldn't.
His answer was that the word isn't the problem, the problem is what's behind it. That when Eddie Murphy uses it, you know there isn't anything behind it, but with him you can't know for sure, because you don't really know him.

I kind of apply the same principle. I'm not a fan of those words, and I don't think I've ever used them in my writing. Knowing what Em just said, seeing them in her stories won't bother me, but if I don't know where it's coming from I'm going to assume the worst.

Yeah. At the risk of making myself sound much more important than I am, I think reclaiming words that are used against women is kinda cool.

Much like a black comedian or rapper using the N word. I think it’s OK a woman using slut or whore.

Em

 

[EmilyMiller]

I didn't mean to take away your badge of honor. I was more looking at the bigots labeling women with these terms in a disparaging way while praising men doing the same thing with positive appelations. It's gettin' late.

It’s a term of derision. That’s why I use it, I want to rob it of its power.

Em

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Yeah. At the risk of making myself sound much more important than I am, I think reclaiming words that are used against women is kinda cool.

Much like a black comedian or rapper using the N word. I think it’s OK a woman using slut or whore.

Em

But it hasn't really worked with the N-word. Black comedians have been using it since forever, and rappers since the 80s I think. It's still every bit as charged a word, maybe even more so now.

 

[onehitwanda]

I am a class one letch. I love staring at other women ...

It's just who I am.

Just by way of demonstration, this first section of "Walking with Sam" is almost entirely how I look at other women.

There really was something quite lovely about the woman's legs and bum, clad as they were in the walking trousers she'd pulled on that morning.

I stared appreciatively at her as I meandered closer, enjoying the very many ways in which she did it for me.

The way her muscles moved under the thin fabric, the way the form of her sublime thighs changed as she turned, moved, shifted.

The way the seat of her trousers almost seemed to cup her small, fantastic cheeks like I wished my hands could - even if only for a breath or two.

The way her slender hips swayed subtly from side to side as she stepped, moved, spun...

The wonderful way she kept her knees almost-but-not-quite-together as she crouched to pick up the tennis ball her dog had just brought back to her...

But the best bit, I thought, was that the woman in question probably had no idea just how delicious she was.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Just by way of demonstration, this first section of "Walking with Sam" is almost entirely how I look at other women.

Whoa!!

 

[onehitwanda]

Whoa!!

I'm terrible. I'm also very discrete. But not very discreet. Which can cause problems.

 

[nice90sguy]

a problem shared is a problem halved

 

[ElectricBlue]

I'm terrible. I'm also very discrete. But not very discreet. Which can cause problems.

People bang on about the male gaze as if it's a bad thing, yet your gaze is equally forthright and appreciative. That was (to use your word) as delicious an observation as any I've ever read, or written.