Authors- how do you deal with objectification?

[M_K_Babalon]

I don't think anything I write is adding to the worlds degeneracy- not in the way as described here, anyway. It's beyond my control if it is, I can't govern nobodies thought process.

Personally I don't think there's enough people making me the object of their desire. Or aren't speaking up enough. I think I might be one of few who don't see a problem with such things, with a caveat. Attraction is a thing. whether it's first or second, it's still a factor.

 

[Zootonius]

I'm terrible. I'm also very discrete. But not very discreet. Which can cause problems.

But women have the fallback of, "I was just admiring her pretty outfit!" A line no man could get away with.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

But women have the fallback of, "I was just admiring her pretty outfit!" A line no man could get away with.

I was at the beach with my BF and a couple of girls set up a few feet from us.
BF: Can you do something for me?
Me: Sure what?
BF: I can't figure out what the girl to my left's tattoo says, it's driving me crazy.
I look over, she's got some writing in a weird font on her side just below her breast. Anyone reading it would look like they were staring at her breast, and the font made it hard to read.
My BF was worried he'd look pervy trying to read it, but he couldn't not know what it said.
It's lot less pervy/threatening if I'm looking...

 

[nice90sguy]

But c'mon, a tat just below the breast? Why there? And I'd so look. And call her out on her choice of location if she responded negatively (which she might, or might not)

 

[SimonDoom]

Coz it’s fun?

Em

OK, that's a good reason.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

But c'mon, a tat just below the breast? Why there? And I'd so look. And call her out on her choice of location if she responded negatively (which she might, or might not)

But c'mon, a tat just below the breast? Why there? And I'd so look. And call her out on her choice of location if she responded negatively (which she might, or might not)

It does seem a tad cruel to the male of the species...

 

[Gamblnluck]

Even as a smut artist, I cringe every time I see something in the media or comments here about unsolicited sexual advances, objectification of women, or sexism. It really bothers me and sometimes I wonder if I am contributing more to the problem than fixing it by writing smut. My question is- to both male and female writers- do you deal with similar issues and how do you handle it?

You and I already went round and around about this very issue. But that was geared towards using REAL people in those positions. You called it honoring them, I called it an assault on their integrity.
As far as TOTALLY FICTIONALIZED characters are concerned, I have no inhibitions about creating stories that might be considered outside normal societal approval. Stepping outside those standards if fine. I DO however think that certain ideology (YES a contradiction) where extreme racist attitudes are perpetuated. They should be put over in interracial where they belong. (MY OPINION ONLY) I find those things only mildly less objectionable than bestiality and underage sex. And I would have NO objection if the animal was the one doing the fucking and not on the receiving end.

 

[SimonDoom]

But women have the fallback of, "I was just admiring her pretty outfit!" A line no man could get away with.

It's the equivalent of, "I read it for the articles."

 

[EmilyMiller]

It's the equivalent of, "I read it for the articles."

It’s pretty easy to ogle as a girl. It seems you have to be “one of us” to realize and then it might be reciprocal, if only in a sisterhood way.

I have looked at some girls and seen rather a lot in the way they smile to themselves as they go about their business.

For what it’s worth, I have no problem guys checking me out. It’s if that leads to other behavior that the problems occur. Cat calls are obnoxious. Groups of guys can be quite intimidating and I don’t think all of them get that (some don’t care of course). The ones who follow you are fucking scary.

Em

 

[SimonDoom]

It’s pretty easy to ogle as a girl. It seems you have to be “one of us” to realize and then it might be reciprocal, if only in a sisterhood way.

I have looked at some girls and seen rather a lot in the way they smile to themselves as they go about their business.

For what it’s worth, I have no problem guys checking me out. It’s if that leads to other behavior that the problems occur. Cat calls are obnoxious. Groups of guys can be quite intimidating and I don’t think all of them get that (some don’t care of course). The ones who follow you are fucking scary.

Em

To some degree, I think the fretting about objectification is foolish and pointless. I think we're wired to find things, and people, attractive, and this wiring, appropriately channeled, is part of what makes life wonderful and enjoyable. A woman's body, to me, is the most beautiful thing there is. I'd rather look at it than Yosemite Valley, or a beautiful butterfly, or a sunset on the Pacific Ocean. I'm in my late 50s and I feel as much that way as I ever did. More, maybe. It never gets old.

I recall many years ago having a partner who told me that she believed the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue "hurts women." I don't believe that. I've never believed that, and I never will. We are capable of looking at things in complex ways. It is possible to objectify someone you know as "beautiful" and yet admire and appreciate all the qualities in them that have nothing to do with physical beauty.

There's a lot of objectification in my stories, because they reflect me, and the way I look at women. I'm a visual person and I want in my stories to convey the sense of exquisite joy one can get in looking at a woman. I think it's a good thing. Obviously, if that's the only way you look at women, then you have a problem, but that's not how I feel.

 

[EmilyMiller]

To some degree, I think the fretting about objectification is foolish and pointless. I think we're wired to find things, and people, attractive, and this wiring, appropriately channeled, is part of what makes life wonderful and enjoyable. A woman's body, to me, is the most beautiful thing there is. I'd rather look at it than Yosemite Valley, or a beautiful butterfly, or a sunset on the Pacific Ocean. I'm in my late 50s and I feel as much that way as I ever did. More, maybe. It never gets old.

I recall many years ago having a partner who told me that she believed the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue "hurts women." I don't believe that. I've never believed that, and I never will. We are capable of looking at things in complex ways. It is possible to objectify someone you know as "beautiful" and yet admire and appreciate all the qualities in them that have nothing to do with physical beauty.

There's a lot of objectification in my stories, because they reflect me, and the way I look at women. I'm a visual person and I want in my stories to convey the sense of exquisite joy one can get in looking at a woman. I think it's a good thing. Obviously, if that's the only way you look at women, then you have a problem, but that's not how I feel.

As you say. The issue is when a woman’s appearance is all that matters. Not her intellect. Not her heart. Not her brain.

To put it the other way round. Someone might be beautiful inside while falling short of our silly standards outside.

I’ve said before, I don’t really go on a guy’s appearance. Most I have slept with (look at me using grown up language!) are ones I have got to know and attraction has developed over time. I’ve had hook-ups with girls though.

The other aspect is hooking up with a female stranger feels a lot safer.

Em

 

[countdowntolov3]

I think we should try to build a utopia on earth. I'm positive we won't get there in my lifetime. Maybe we won't even be closer than when we started. But I think that should be our collective goal.

No more war. No more violence, sexual or otherwise. No untimely death or suffering from sickness, if we can swing it.

A perfect, sanitary, utopia.

But, what would we do? It seems obvious to me that we'd make art. And what would that art depict? The same thing our art depicts now. Struggle, conflict, triumph, the highs and lows we've removed from our lives because the reality of them is in fact to awful to be worth the rush.

In my view of the world, people who clutch pearls over acceptable fantasies are fooling themselves. Drawing a line in the sand where their toes happen to be, and saying that if you cross it you're a villain.

 

[SimonDoom]

To address the OP's original question in a "how to" way, I would say deal with it this way: Embrace objectification for beauty or sexually appealing qualities if you want to, but make the person being objectified a person, a subject and not just an object. That will ameliorate some of the concerns you have about going down this path, and it probably will make your story more interesting.

 

[Bramblethorn]

But c'mon, a tat just below the breast? Why there? And I'd so look. And call her out on her choice of location if she responded negatively (which she might, or might not)

Can't answer for that girl, but...

Some years back, an awful thing happened to my family. I'm not going to share the RL specifics, but if you imagine that a runaway eighteen-wheeler ploughed through our family picnic, killed several people, and left others with lifelong injuries and scars, that's the kind of damage it did to us. (The eighteen-wheeler and the picnic are metaphorical; the deaths and scars are not.)

It fucked us up pretty badly, as individuals and as a family. Probably a major factor in my cousin deciding that they liked heroin better than they liked being alive. It took me a long time to get past it; in hindsight I wonder whether I should've been talking to a professional about possible PTSD.

For me, part of healing was getting a tattoo that stood for that event and the people we'd lost. I chose to have it positioned on my ribs, over my heart because... where else do you hold somebody that you love and miss and will never see again? And because I'd heard that the ribs were a painful spot for a tattoo and I needed it to hurt.

It's not a design that would mean anything to most people. I'm not a beach bunny, so normally the only folk who see it are lovers, doctors, and masseurs. But if somebody who didn't know the background to that tattoo were to see it, I guess they might describe it as "a tat just below the breast".

I didn't do it for the attention.

Our bodies don't exist just for other people's gratification, and the choices we make about our bodies aren't always made for the benefit of those who might happen to see them.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Can't answer for that girl, but...

Some years back, an awful thing happened to my family. I'm not going to share the RL specifics, but if you imagine that a runaway eighteen-wheeler ploughed through our family picnic, killed several people, and left others with lifelong injuries and scars, that's the kind of damage it did to us. (The eighteen-wheeler and the picnic are metaphorical; the deaths and scars are not.)

It fucked us up pretty badly, as individuals and as a family. Probably a major factor in my cousin deciding that they liked heroin better than they liked being alive. It took me a long time to get past it; in hindsight I wonder whether I should've been talking to a professional about possible PTSD.

For me, part of healing was getting a tattoo that stood for that event and the people we'd lost. I chose to have it positioned on my ribs, over my heart because... where else do you hold somebody that you love and miss and will never see again? And because I'd heard that the ribs were a painful spot for a tattoo and I needed it to hurt.

It's not a design that would mean anything to most people. I'm not a beach bunny, so normally the only folk who see it are lovers, doctors, and masseurs. But if somebody who didn't know the background to that tattoo were to see it, I guess they might describe it as "a tat just below the breast".

I didn't do it for the attention.

Our bodies don't exist just for other people's gratification, and the choices we make about our bodies aren't always made for the benefit of those who might happen to see them.

Oh, honey.

I’m so sorry. Words are powerless in the face of such traumas. Emojis are not much better. But please take the intent behind these.



Em

 

[Bramblethorn]

Oh, honey.

I’m so sorry. Words are powerless in the face of such traumas. Emojis are not much better. But please take the intent behind these.



Em

I'm okay now, thanks. And I'm not trying to make @nice90sguy feel like he upset me here; I've more or less made my peace with it by now. (Surprising how much the tattoo itself helped with that, in ways I couldn't easily describe.)

I just feel like a lot of people, and it seems to be guys especially, look at things like tattoos and clothing choices and go straight to "what is this meant to say to me?" without stopping to consider the possibility that the message was never aimed at them in the first place.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Can't answer for that girl, but...

Some years back, an awful thing happened to my family. I'm not going to share the RL specifics, but if you imagine that a runaway eighteen-wheeler ploughed through our family picnic, killed several people, and left others with lifelong injuries and scars, that's the kind of damage it did to us. (The eighteen-wheeler and the picnic are metaphorical; the deaths and scars are not.)

It fucked us up pretty badly, as individuals and as a family. Probably a major factor in my cousin deciding that they liked heroin better than they liked being alive. It took me a long time to get past it; in hindsight I wonder whether I should've been talking to a professional about possible PTSD.

For me, part of healing was getting a tattoo that stood for that event and the people we'd lost. I chose to have it positioned on my ribs, over my heart because... where else do you hold somebody that you love and miss and will never see again? And because I'd heard that the ribs were a painful spot for a tattoo and I needed it to hurt.

It's not a design that would mean anything to most people. I'm not a beach bunny, so normally the only folk who see it are lovers, doctors, and masseurs. But if somebody who didn't know the background to that tattoo were to see it, I guess they might describe it as "a tat just below the breast".

I didn't do it for the attention.

Our bodies don't exist just for other people's gratification, and the choices we make about our bodies aren't always made for the benefit of those who might happen to see them.

People get tattoos for a million different reasons, some are intensely personal like yours, and some are the result of a drunken whim. And of course people have the right to put them anywhere they choose on their body.
It's just that I have seen a few unfortunate incidents where someone has a visible tattoo near a more intimate place like the bikini line or breast and when someone looks at it they react negatively.
It's art, and people are naturally drawn to look at it. If it's writing, as in the case I mentioned, people are naturally going to want to read it.
Which is why I mentioned it, tongue in cheek, as being a bit cruel to men. It's yet another thing to draw their eye to that area.

ETA: I don't think most people, male or female, ask what does it say to ME, so much as they wonder why the person chose that. A tattoo in a public place is a means of self expression. People wonder what you are trying to express, particularly when it is a unique or unusual design.

 

[KachinaDoll]

I'm with @onehitwanda here.

I'm never going to apologize for admiring a beautiful woman.

That said: I also try very hard not to be a fucking creep about it.

If a beautiful woman in yoga pants and a sports bra walks past me at the gym, I'll absolutely look.

Not stare, not stalk.

Just look.

Then go about my business.

I wear spandex leggings and a sports bra to the gym. If men and women, look - fine. If they stare - fine. I enjoy it. It turns me on. If it bothered me I'd wear baggy sweat pants and an oversized sweatshirt. But I'd temper that by saying that the gym is in a member-only health club on a 2,000 acre resort. Not sure if I'd feel comfortable dressing that way at the community gym in town.

 

[FeralSmile]

To address the OP's original question in a "how to" way, I would say deal with it this way: Embrace objectification for beauty or sexually appealing qualities if you want to, but make the person being objectified a person, a subject and not just an object. That will ameliorate some of the concerns you have about going down this path, and it probably will make your story more interesting.

I like everything about this but want to quibble about one thing: the word "objectification" doesn't mean what you're describing. Enjoying beauty, admiring bodies as art, or just seeing a person and being sexually attracted to them are all fine and normal and healthy. But you can do all of that without reducing a person to an object; you can still recognize and respect their personhood. Once you dehumanize them, once you see them as nothing more than a collection of body parts for your enjoyment, that's objectification and it's not ok.

 

[FeralSmile]

I wanted to add an example but figured it's better to have it in a separate post.

"She has a great ass" isn't implicitly objectifying. It's just admiring the greatness of her posterior. The rest of what you have to say might make clear that you don't care about anything but her ass, in which case you're not treating her as a person and it's objectifying.

"That's a great ass" is probably objectifying, because the person isn't part of the assessment. Again, context can change this, but taken on its own, that's objectification.

I recognize that this is off-topic in that it's not what the first post was really about, BUT it is what the post title was about.

/pedant

 

[SimonDoom]

I like everything about this but want to quibble about one thing: the word "objectification" doesn't mean what you're describing. Enjoying beauty, admiring bodies as art, or just seeing a person and being sexually attracted to them are all fine and normal and healthy. But you can do all of that without reducing a person to an object; you can still recognize and respect their personhood. Once you dehumanize them, once you see them as nothing more than a collection of body parts for your enjoyment, that's objectification and it's not ok.

I don't disagree with this, but I think you will get some disagreement on what constitutes objectification. I use it in a broad but value neutral sense. Ie, any sort of looking at a woman as an object of beauty is objectifying, but not necessarily bad. Some disagree. Some think porn is inherently objectifying in a bad way. I don't agree with that. I would say that porn objectifies, but not necessarily to the exclusion of other ways of looking at women. To some degree it's just quibbling over word usage.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

Objectification is so subjective and dependent on context. On the one hand, of course we objectify the characters in our stories. They are the tools we use to paint our word pictures, tools to be used as we see fit. Objects, nothing more. I would suggest the deciding factor is the finished tapestry. Does your completed work lift the subject or denigrate it? Are you painting Gerome's Venus Rising, or are you staging a Hustler photo shoot? Both are valid.
On the other, any objectification, whether intentional or not, is honestly purely in the perception of our readers. Even our most pure intent can bee seen as objectification by some, our most depraved, high art by others.
Write from your heart, because you must. The truth will win out in the end.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Objectification is so subjective and dependent on context. On the one hand, of course we objectify the characters in our stories. They are the tools we use to paint our word pictures, tools to be used as we see fit. Objects, nothing more. I would suggest the deciding factor is the finished tapestry. Does your completed work lift the subject or denigrate it? Are you painting Gerome's Venus Rising, or are you staging a Hustler photo shoot? Both are valid.
On the other, any objectification, whether intentional or not, is honestly purely in the perception of our readers. Even our most pure intent can bee seen as objectification by some, our most depraved, high art by others.
Write from your heart, because you must. The truth will win out in the end.

This

 

[Bramblethorn]

People get tattoos for a million different reasons, some are intensely personal like yours, and some are the result of a drunken whim. And of course people have the right to put them anywhere they choose on their body.
It's just that I have seen a few unfortunate incidents where someone has a visible tattoo near a more intimate place like the bikini line or breast and when someone looks at it they react negatively.
It's art, and people are naturally drawn to look at it. If it's writing, as in the case I mentioned, people are naturally going to want to read it.

Agreed. I don't have an issue with people looking and being curious about it, on the rare occasions when it's visible. I get the curiosity, it's something that meant enough to them to get it permanently on their skin. Honestly, there have been times when I've been perving on some attractively naked person and then gotten sidetracked by trying to figure out what their tattoo is.

It's more with people assuming that getting attention is the purpose of the tattoo. The difference between "people are going to look" and "you must've chosen it because you wanted people to look".

ETA: I don't think most people, male or female, ask what does it say to ME, so much as they wonder why the person chose that. A tattoo in a public place is a means of self expression. People wonder what you are trying to express, particularly when it is a unique or unusual design.

The curiosity is fine. But I have seen quite a few discussions about tattoos where people assume the only reason somebody would have one is to attract attention. That's the bit where I get prickly.

 

[nice90sguy]

Both my sons and mybest friend have "secret personal meaning tattoos". I know what they're all about.

There are two reasons I never had one (although my wife loves them on guys): Firstly, I don't want to decalre, even to myself, anything about myself for "all time" -- I want to remain mutable as much as possible. I reserve the right to withdraw any statement I make about myself. And the second reason is that I'm scared shitless of needles.