Being a woman in geek culture

[Recidiva]

Fair enough!

My upbringing was the opposite of yours-- my father managed to help turn me into a paranoid, anxious mess. Growing up, he treated me more like a son than a daughter (which is what I wanted), but as soon as I hit puberty he 180'd on me, leaving me feeling lost and confused. Suddenly being true to myself was no longer something he embraced in me, but something that was a source of embarrassment to him. He had no qualms about letting me know. He was emotionally and verbally abusive, and he married someone who encouraged these behaviors. As I was getting close to graduating high school, I was expected to be both a successful business woman who was self-sufficient and making 6 figures, and a housewife whose prime directive is motherhood. And he was militant about enforcing these two conflicting expectations. He's also the guy that said a lot of really creepy sexist and racist bullshit about my endometriosis which didn't make my medical tribulations any easier. He withdrew financial support a year into my college education because his wife wanted to quit her full-time job. And so on.

My mother was always great, even though she was a pushover for much of her mothering career, and married two abusive men. But she always stuck up for me and had no expectations of me other than to just be whoever and whatever I wanted to be.

So I'm a feminist for myself first and foremost. I can't help anyone else if I can't help myself.

I completely understand and support the real fact that you (and everyone) need a motivating force to counter destructive patterns and demotivating experiences. Everybody should be true to their own origins and own patterns and do what they need to do to change them for the better. I'm all for it. I'm not telling anybody here that they are "wrong" in their trajectory and position in space. I express what I do because there are maybe people out there like me that might benefit from the viewpoint. I'm not doing it to invalidate other approaches. I'm not a person of perfectionism that values only those who have "arrived" at perfection. I honor the struggle. Conversations like this help clarify that there is an overall goal for individuals...freedom, strength, peace in self...and as many ways to get there as there are individuals.

 

[Recidiva]

Are we the same person?

Boy I hope so, but I hear that you're a guy

 

[BiBunny]

Boy I hope so, but I hear that you're a guy

Well...shit!

 

[IrisAlthea]

Which kind of feminism are we "not" here? Radfem? I'm shitty at it and I don't live up to it, but they're not WRONG, they're just unrealistic and stringent. La la la slutwalk whee Jezebel feminism? Some usefulness, limited. I think images are important but not as important as they do. Ms. Mag straight white wimmin's problems are the whole world's problems feminism? NYT how to parent on a one-percenter budget woe-is me "feminism?" Too often that's seen as non-threatning - scary. Very scary.

I'm much MUCH more worried about aligning myself with that than with radicalized feminism and womanism and women of color and intersectionality and all that. I'm much more of the mind that radfem goes up its own butt in other ways than "oh it makes men sad" and THOSE are the ways I worry about and can't be down with. OK, they have problems that I'm bi, and a SM freak. Frankly those are low-priority enough issues in the world that I can shut up about them and keep them to myself in context.

I used to get very upset about that, and then I realized that my gramma doesn't have to approve of or know everything I do in order to be wise.

I'm very pleased to consider myself feminist, small f.

I'm allergic to difference feminism.

 

[satindesire]

My parents are okay now that I'm independent and helping THEM out, but they were both pretty awful when I was a kid. Daddy was emotionally distant and had no idea how to talk to an energetic and curious girl (Vietnam, PTSD, then-undiagnosed Depression) and mom was...just sort of there? She never taught me anything or really showed any interest in what I was doing. As long as I wasn't flunking school or skipping classes, she was caught up in her own life too completely to realize she had a child to take care of. I had to teach m yself how to be a grown up...laundry, taxes, checkbooks, cooking, paying bills, the works. I pretty much parented myself from the age of 10--got my first job when I was 16 and been supporting myself as much as possible since then. I don't really think I had a choice in it.

I'm a feminist because I have two daughters that are going to grow up in a world that sees them as "less" just because they're girls. That's unacceptable. They're also mixed race with an obviously ethnic last name, which is another can of worms altogether. But first and foremost, I want to try as much as I can, even though I'm only one person, to make sure they get raised better than I was (with parents invested, supportive and interested in them) and have a structure around them that tells them that the outside world is kind of broken and that means you can't really trust it's messages about women and girls. I want to make sure that they don't get it in their heads that their worth comes from their looks or how much male approval and attention that they get. I want to make sure they feel like they can do almost anything they want, and although they'll get resistance in some things because of their gender, they can't let that tell them anything about their self-worth as people.

 

[BiBunny]

My mother is crazy as a betsy bug and a narcissist to boot. As long as she is the center of the universe and is getting exactly what she wants, she's fine to be around. Anytime the slightest thing does not go her way, it's a meltdown of epic proportions. She changed the "rules" about dealing with her from day to day, so the goal posts were always moving. You never knew what to expect. I grew up walking on eggshells, terrified that the slightest thing would set her off, and I would once more be the target of her narcissistic rage. I suspect that my general distrust of women began with her.

My father, on the other hand, is the strongest and sanest person I know. How in the world he has put up with that batshit crazy woman for 40 years, I will never know. He taught me not to be afraid of anyone and not to take shit off anybody.

While I have a whole lot of weird hang-ups and emotional issues that are a combination of genetics, living with my mother's insanity, and other general life experience, I, like reci, have no fear when it comes to dealing with people in general and men in particular in regards to my personal safety. I grew up with horses and once had to fight my way out of stall (that I had been cornered in by a crazy horse) with nothing but a water bucket. If I can put a 1,200+ pound animal off me with a 4-gallon plastic water bucket, I can hold my own with anybody.

In addition to just being a badass in general, Daddy was drafted into the Air Force back during the waning years of Vietnam. They had pulled most of the troops out by the time he had to do his tour of duty overseas, so he ended up being stationed on a military base in Italy, rather than seeing active combat. He was a staff sergeant (which isn't a super-high ranking or anything, but it did make him the "supervisor" of his department) who worked in intelligence. And the man just does not give a single solitary fuck at all.

He taught me to never, ever start a physical confrontation with anyone and to walk away from it if at all possible. But he also taught me that if I were ever backed into a corner, I should not be afraid to kill somebody if it ever came down to it. He taught me to be wary, to always know my surroundings, how to shoot, how to defend myself with a knife, and how to fight dirty. "It don't matter if he's stronger than you," he said. "I promise you, if you gouge his eye out or cut him open from his chin to his groin so that his guts spill out, he'll go down." (Yes, that's a direct quote.)

I'm not saying any of this shit to sound like some kind of Internet Billie Joe Badass. I know without question that if somebody's got me at point-blank range with a gun or if I'm somehow blindsided, I'm just as vulnerable as anybody else. (There's a reason the shotgun stays by my bedside and never goes anywhere else.)

I don't believe I'm invulnerable, and I know that if I were ever attacked by some super martial artist or whatever, I'd probably be fucked. But I also know that the chances of that happening are pretty slim because most violence and/or rapes are perpetrated not by random attackers but by people you know.

I am not a violent person. I will walk away as long as I'm able to. But I don't look like someone you want to mess with, which tends to cut down on a lot of the face-to-face bullshit. I will not be coerced or threatened into anything I don't want to do, and if anybody ever gets the drop on me, he better hope he kills me--and then skips the country because there will be a price on his head. Like reci says, everybody's gotta sleep sometime....

Again, not saying all this shit to make myself sound big and bad or anything like that. I just wanted to sorta put my perspective into perspective, so to speak. And also to set up a reason to share this video, where Cedric the Entertainer pokes fun at the so-called "white people's creed" vs. the "black people's creed." In this analogy, my creed would be the latter when it comes to anyone, man or woman, attempting violence toward me.

My father taught me things that were very empowering. It wasn't just self-defense, either. I couldn't even begin to enumerate them all here. He'd never think to say so, but I'd say he's definitely a staunch feminist man. I wish other women had been empowered the way I was/am.

 

[Keroin]

Two relevant articles today!

The first is sad and horrible and contributes to my growing leerines toward the gaming community (Sorry Satin, Recidiva, et al, I know you guys are terrific but I keep hearing more and more about these other folks). Also, I know these threats aren't exclusively directed to women but I'm seeing the bulk of the vitriol aimed their way.

BioWare writer quits after death threats to family

The second one is fun. Basically, this was a tables turned, tongue-in-cheek interview where two male authors (Chuck Wendig and Stephen Blackmoore) agreed to answer the kinds of ridiculous questions usually only asked of female authors. Hilarity ensues. But it makes a good point about the sexist nature of these questions.

Interview with Chuck Wendig & Stephen Blackmoore

 

[Recidiva]

Holy Crap, BiBunny, you ARE me. My mom's a narcissist and alcoholic. My dad was an IBM programmer and was a strategy advisor during the war. He also always regretted that he never rode horses but encouraged me to do it instead. I dearly, DEARLY wish they had gotten a divorce at some point so they both could have been free of truly quantum codependent entanglement. My dad brought me to Judo classes and watched NOVA with me.

Kinda bummed we were cloned at birth and I didn't get to know you in a twin sense.

 

[Recidiva]

Two relevant articles today!

The first is sad and horrible and contributes to my growing leerines toward the gaming community (Sorry Satin, Recidiva, et al, I know you guys are terrific but I keep hearing more and more about these other folks). Also, I know these threats aren't exclusively directed to women but I'm seeing the bulk of the vitriol aimed their way.

BioWare writer quits after death threats to family

The second one is fun. Basically, this was a tables turned, tongue-in-cheek interview where two male authors (Chuck Wendig and Stephen Blackmoore) agreed to answer the kinds of ridiculous questions usually only asked of female authors. Hilarity ensues. But it makes a good point about the sexist nature of these questions.

Interview with Chuck Wendig & Stephen Blackmoore

I just read the Bioware thing on a friend's Facebook feed. This is a true outlier though. Granted I can get passionate about the way Bioware handles themselves sometimes, but it's because I care, not because I'm crazy. This is pure crazy and irrational. The decision to quit is of course theirs, but I doubt it will stop the crazy from coming. This is not the reaction of a sane person, gamer or no.

Oh my Gods, that's hilarious. *wheezing*

 

[BiBunny]

Two relevant articles today!

The first is sad and horrible and contributes to my growing leerines toward the gaming community (Sorry Satin, Recidiva, et al, I know you guys are terrific but I keep hearing more and more about these other folks). Also, I know these threats aren't exclusively directed to women but I'm seeing the bulk of the vitriol aimed their way.

BioWare writer quits after death threats to family

The second one is fun. Basically, this was a tables turned, tongue-in-cheek interview where two male authors (Chuck Wendig and Stephen Blackmoore) agreed to answer the kinds of ridiculous questions usually only asked of female authors. Hilarity ensues. But it makes a good point about the sexist nature of these questions.

Interview with Chuck Wendig & Stephen Blackmoore

That last article is hilarious.

Holy Crap, BiBunny, you ARE me. My mom's a narcissist and alcoholic. My dad was an IBM programmer and was a strategy advisor during the war. He also always regretted that he never rode horses but encouraged me to do it instead. I dearly, DEARLY wish they had gotten a divorce at some point so they both could have been free of truly quantum codependent entanglement. My dad brought me to Judo classes and watched NOVA with me.

Kinda bummed we were cloned at birth and I didn't get to know you in a twin sense.

I KNOW, RIGHT?!?!

And ditto on the wishing my parents had gotten a divorce thing. Hell, I remember wishing that when I was, like, 8.

 

[KoPilot]

My mother is crazy as a betsy bug and a narcissist to boot. As long as she is the center of the universe and is getting exactly what she wants, she's fine to be around. Anytime the slightest thing does not go her way, it's a meltdown of epic proportions. She changed the "rules" about dealing with her from day to day, so the goal posts were always moving. You never knew what to expect. I grew up walking on eggshells, terrified that the slightest thing would set her off, and I would once more be the target of her narcissistic rage. I suspect that my general distrust of women began with her.

That's the woman that I currently live with (my grandmother, who was my mom's single parent). She is a toxic bag of bones and I can't wait to cut her out of my life. She will put my pets lives in danger if she thinks its cute and will get her to be the talk of the town again. I always have to remember that my mom never paid attention to the feminist thing (probably because in the 70's and 80's, the message back then was pretty dang hostile to someone like her, who wanted to be a mother and a wife before anything else), so she seems to have a general distrust of women also because of her mom.

And yeah, I was leery around my mom in the first few months I found feminism because of that motherly thing, but... The Thing she wants to do when I finally get around to moving into my own nest is to start taking in foster kids because that's the mother in her. I can't think of much else that is more admirable than that.

 

[KoPilot]

Two relevant articles today!

The first is sad and horrible and contributes to my growing leerines toward the gaming community (Sorry Satin, Recidiva, et al, I know you guys are terrific but I keep hearing more and more about these other folks). Also, I know these threats aren't exclusively directed to women but I'm seeing the bulk of the vitriol aimed their way.

BioWare writer quits after death threats to family

I don't have the link to back it up at the moment, but apparently the employee left not because of the threats, but because she wanted to pursue a freelance career (her explanation, not speculation). It was more coincidence than anything, though I don't doubt the threats wouldn't make one really think twice about the cons of a steady paycheck vs doing your own thing.

 

[Recidiva]

That's the woman that I currently live with (my grandmother, who was my mom's single parent). She is a toxic bag of bones and I can't wait to cut her out of my life. She will put my pets lives in danger if she thinks its cute and will get her to be the talk of the town again. I always have to remember that my mom never paid attention to the feminist thing (probably because in the 70's and 80's, the message back then was pretty dang hostile to someone like her, who wanted to be a mother and a wife before anything else), so she seems to have a general distrust of women also because of her mom.

And yeah, I was leery around my mom in the first few months I found feminism because of that motherly thing, but... The Thing she wants to do when I finally get around to moving into my own nest is to start taking in foster kids because that's the mother in her. I can't think of much else that is more admirable than that.

I think that's something I dislike as an unintended consequence of feminism. That is specifically hanging out with feminists. There is a subgroup of feminists who feel that being "just a mother" is somehow denigrating womanhood and setting the bar very low.

I think being a mom is one of the best things I've ever done, and I can't really be around people who think that I'm doing wrong by making that choice.

I know the more sane view is that you should simply have the freedom to choose from all the options, and that's the view I support and accept as also a feminist ideal, but in practice it doesn't often work out that way.

I'm not a fan of "fight fire with fire" and become a man in a man's world to kick their ass and beat them at their game. I'm a woman, I'm cool with it, I see nothing wrong with being able to sew and cook and nurture and have kids and also be able to kill someone with my thumb if I so choose. I don't want to be a guy, act like a guy, kick a guy's ass to "win." I just wanna be me and if I want to knit and quilt, fuck off before I strangle you with my organic bamboo yarn.

 

[Recidiva]

I don't have the link to back it up at the moment, but apparently the employee left not because of the threats, but because she wanted to pursue a freelance career (her explanation, not speculation). It was more coincidence than anything, though I don't doubt the threats wouldn't make one really think twice about the cons of a steady paycheck vs doing your own thing.

*SPOILER ALERT FOR DA1 and 2 PLOT*

If she's the one that made fucking Anders fucking blow up the fucking Chantry...*cough* No, I won't kill her.

It's funny, I love that game and the original, but I got into serious debates about DA1 with one of the main writers, David Gaider, on the Bioware boards. If you have a romantic relationship with one of the main characters, in the end he will not allow you to kill yourself in a sacrifice. He will override you and make the sacrifice himself. I was absolutely incensed and sure there MUST be a way. I went through every tree response, I tried over and over, and finally went to the boards to make sure there wasn't a way.

David thought it was romantic and I thought it was a load of bullshit, I was the commander, he should have damned well listen to me, it wasn't romance, it was insubordination...on and on.

Finally I asked him if I could mod the game so I could punch out Alastair at the end and have the romance and the heroic ending.

In my case he said I had permission. Someone wrote the mod for me.

So I get my satisfaction through browbeating and cheating.

 

[satindesire]

I think that's something I dislike as an unintended consequence of feminism. That is specifically hanging out with feminists. There is a subgroup of feminists who feel that being "just a mother" is somehow denigrating womanhood and setting the bar very low.

I think being a mom is one of the best things I've ever done, and I can't really be around people who think that I'm doing wrong by making that choice.

I know the more sane view is that you should simply have the freedom to choose from all the options, and that's the view I support and accept as also a feminist ideal, but in practice it doesn't often work out that way.

I'm not a fan of "fight fire with fire" and become a man in a man's world to kick their ass and beat them at their game. I'm a woman, I'm cool with it, I see nothing wrong with being able to sew and cook and nurture and have kids and also be able to kill someone with my thumb if I so choose. I don't want to be a guy, act like a guy, kick a guy's ass to "win." I just wanna be me and if I want to knit and quilt, fuck off before I strangle you with my organic bamboo yarn.

And this is why I have a massive, unmitigated girl crush on you.

Being feminine and doing feminine things should NEVER be looked down on...we shouldn't have to be men or act manly to be "good feminists". I think that's pretty misogynistic, actually. You have to be a man to be good at something? Fuck that, no. I was born and I identify as female and anyone can kiss my shapely behind if they think that's bad.

 

[Recidiva]

And this is why I have a massive, unmitigated girl crush on you.

Being feminine and doing feminine things should NEVER be looked down on...we shouldn't have to be men or act manly to be "good feminists". I think that's pretty misogynistic, actually. You have to be a man to be good at something? Fuck that, no. I was born and I identify as female and anyone can kiss my shapely behind if they think that's bad.

No greater honor and I hope reincarnation is real so I can get a shot someday.

 

[Keroin]

I just read the Bioware thing on a friend's Facebook feed. This is a true outlier though. Granted I can get passionate about the way Bioware handles themselves sometimes, but it's because I care, not because I'm crazy. This is pure crazy and irrational. The decision to quit is of course theirs, but I doubt it will stop the crazy from coming. This is not the reaction of a sane person, gamer or no.

I haven't known much about the gamer community because I've never gamed and I've lived in places where it really isn't a "thing". But since I've become active on social media for book promo purposes, I've delved into various aspects of geekdom, including gaming. (No, I still don't game, no time, no interest). As a complete outsider, I'm shocked at the things I've read, particularly the evil and threatening comments that are made to female gamers and gamer developers. Beyond shocked. Horrified, actually. I'm sure these people are the minority but, wow, what a sick minority.

The other article linked in the one I posted goes into more detail and brings up a lot of good points about the need to start dealing with online threats and harassment.

Oh my Gods, that's hilarious. *wheezing*

That last article is hilarious.

I so Wendig. Loved his novel Blackbirds. I haven't read anything by Blackmoore, but now I'm curious.

I don't have the link to back it up at the moment, but apparently the employee left not because of the threats, but because she wanted to pursue a freelance career (her explanation, not speculation). It was more coincidence than anything, though I don't doubt the threats wouldn't make one really think twice about the cons of a steady paycheck vs doing your own thing.

You are correct. In fact, my source for this article made a point of mentioning that she stated she did not leave because of the threats -- but I'm quite sure they helped make the decision a loooooot easier.

 

[Recidiva]

I haven't known much about the gamer community because I've never gamed and I've lived in places where it really isn't a "thing". But since I've become active on social media for book promo purposes, I've delved into various aspects of geekdom, including gaming. (No, I still don't game, no time, no interest). As a complete outsider, I'm shocked at the things I've read, particularly the evil and threatening comments that are made to female gamers and gamer developers. Beyond shocked. Horrified, actually. I'm sure these people are the minority but, wow, what a sick minority.

I think that's true about any group that you don't belong to that gets bad press. You have no sense of the community and humor and support that goes on, you only see the stuff that makes the news. It's completely understandable that if you aren't part of it, there's no reason to fill in blanks with good stuff. There's no reason for you to join up if you have no inherent interest in the pastime.

I just have a lifetime of good stuff, good friends, game memories with an online community where people turn into real life friends for years, my husband and daughter and son that were fun bonding. I can easily identify an outlier because I am solidly in the heart of the community and have been for 30 years.

For instance, imagine this sentence. "Oh my goodness, I just read a news report about a couple that were involved in BDSM. Such horrors! I can't imagine how you would ever speak to anybody involved in that, it seems like you're risking life and limb!"

 

[Stella_Omega]

Except, Diva darling, it's geek women that talk about the things the gamers say, not outsiders.

And they have direct quotes. And numbers. And even links to where these things are being said, where the proof is right there in the open. Its all public.

Your corner of the gaming world is your corner. It's a lovely friendly corner, and you've spent a lot of time making it so. But don't kid yourself that your corner is anything like the rest of the table, and don't waste your energy defending a culture that really needs to change.

 

[Recidiva]

Except, Diva darling, it's geek women that talk about the things the gamers say, not outsiders.

And they have direct quotes. And numbers. And even links to where these things are being said, where the proof is right there in the open. Its all public.

Your corner of the gaming world is your corner. It's a lovely friendly corner, and you've spent a lot of time making it so. But don't kid yourself that your corner is anything like the rest of the table, and don't waste your energy defending a culture that really needs to change.

I think you're creating some sort of straw gamer here. I'm not invalidating what other geek women have said, and I've brought up the abuses I know of myself. I'm not an apologist.

My gaming corner of the world is a lovely corner. There's no need to invalidate my experience in the way that you're accusing me of invalidating other people's experience.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I think you're creating some sort of straw gamer here. I'm not invalidating what other geek women have said, and I've brought up the abuses I know of myself. I'm not an apologist.

My gaming corner of the world is a lovely corner. There's no need to invalidate my experience in the way that you're accusing me of invalidating other people's experience.

I'm not invalidating your experience, but your experience doesn't qualify you to make the statements you're making-- on behalf of the rest of us.

 

[Recidiva]

I'm not invalidating your experience, but your experience doesn't qualify you to make the statements you're making-- on behalf of the rest of us.

Really? You're trying to strip me of my geek cred? No. You don't have the dice roll for it.

I'm not speaking for anybody other than myself, and I am allowed to speak for myself, even if it's not what you would like to hear from me.

 

[KoPilot]

I think that's true about any group that you don't belong to that gets bad press. You have no sense of the community and humor and support that goes on, you only see the stuff that makes the news. It's completely understandable that if you aren't part of it, there's no reason to fill in blanks with good stuff.

I'm part of it, have been since I developed motor skills--hell, that's where my paycheck comes from every other friday--and I still don't fill in the blanks with good stuff. Trying to do my little part in my little miniscule corner of the industry for however long I'm on board with this project..

 

[Recidiva]

I'm part of it, have been for most of my life--hell, that's where my paycheck comes from every other friday--and I still don't fill in the blanks with good stuff.

Then you don't have my blanks. Why would you?

 

[KoPilot]

Then you don't have my blanks. Why would you?

I think the point is that the bad stuff the makes the news? That's only the tip of the iceberg. :I

Sexism rarely gets reported on anyways... I mean, we're still trying to get over the "geek" being the asthmatic who lives in his mom's basement. "Women in geekdom" is still conceived to be BBT's Penny.