Being a woman in geek culture

[Recidiva]

Do you say anything to him about it?

ETA: she probably has me on ignore, but it's a worthwhile question, in the context.

Ohhhhh yes. Yes. Yes. Very important.

He's Asperger's so I have to say it in a calm manner and repeat it every time he slips, which he did, but he does learn.

We also had a swearing policy. He wasn't allowed to swear, and then he was allowed to say "hell" and "damn" in my presence when he was mid sized, and then at a certain point (when he was taller than me) he was allowed to say fuck.

I explained about "rape" that the word means something truly awful that nobody should be reminded of casually. I said about swearing that people need to swear only with their peers, then swear with consenting adults, and then never swear in front of people like conservative grandparents, and certain words will never be said in my presence without a lecture. He said "Like the "n" word?" (which he'd never said anyway, he is race blind and thinks racism is a sign of idiocy. Good.). Rape never came up before that, but it's used so casually in the gaming world to mean other things that I know where he got it. He's also said things are "gay" in that context, which also is corrected.

Every now and then when he's frustrated he'll take a dig at "women." When we moved, I mostly stayed inside and unpacked and he said something like "No wonder women had a better time in history, they're not outside lugging things around!" To which I said "Oh, you mean being inside, unable to go outside without a man, lugging things around every day instead of when we move, and having babies that probably kill them in childbirth?"

His chin thunked down to his chest. "Sorry."

So if he gets frustrated, he gets out of control, but day to day he knows what not to say and why. I have to repeat some lectures several times, but he at least doesn't say it around me.

Happy to talk to you Stella, just don't want to end up ripping chunks off each other.

 

[Recidiva]

May I present the Mako Mori Test: http://www.dailydot.com/fandom/mako-mori-test-bechdel-pacific-rim/

Basically... my thoughts align with the person who coined the thing. The Bechdel Test has its place, but it's not the end-all be-all of determining a story's feminist cred, and I hate it when it's applied in a really lazy, reductive manner. I mean, I just bristle at the idea of misogynistic lesbian porn passing while Mulan doesn't?

Anyways, this is the Bechdel alternative I've been waiting for.

Great article. I like the thought process and the refinement of the thought process. I complain about stereotypical writing and stereotypical characters.

That's one of the reasons I really like Gillian Flynn and Tana French as authors. I think they have a more measured view of reality and portray the genders more as I see them from my point of view. When a bad guy or a good guy is a woman it is a real woman, when a bad guy or a good guy is a man it's a real man. Sure, I know all about guys because as we've discussed earlier, we're soaking in it.

I do love Joss Whedon and Terry Pratchett, but I see a bias in that sense that they are sympathetic to women and idealize them and ironically under represent real women while trashing the male side of the equation. They can be forgiven by overcompensating, but it's distracting. This is a small criticism of these gentlemen because I really love them and their contributions and they do have female bad guys...but it's...different from when a sympathetic man writes a bad guy that is a woman. There's still some Vaseline blurring on the lens that I can make out.

Female authors can write an un-abashed, un-victimized female villain and get it right. Guys with hearts and consciences get queasy about that and although that queasiness is admirable in its own way...it's so refreshing to get it straight. In that sense a woman can say things that a man can't get away with. Good. Niche.

 

[Keroin]

I think these tests are just kind of general temperatures you can use. You stick a bechdel up a movie's butt and a mori and see if it's running 101 degrees or dead. I think pitting the metrics against each other as definitive is silly.

Oh sure, it's just that when there's only one and that's the only measure people are using, even if incomplete or inadequate, that's annoying.

Well yeah, media literacy and criticism requires a jillion more things than this. It's just like having a phillips and a flathead in your toolbox. You can mostly get by with one, but seriously, why not have both?

Exactly. And it sucks that we even need these tools but it is good to have sort of metrics to show what's wrong out there.

Many Guests of Honor are taking the stance of not wanting to be on any panel that does not include women.

In writing about CONvergence 2013, Paul Cornell wrote "I appeared on seventeen panels, only one short of my personal best, all of them featuring at least one woman. The latter feat, still beyond the power of many events, was achieved without seeming effort on the part of the convention."
He also told us that we were the best con in the world

This is something that baffles me. I've attended a few big writer's conventions. The attendees are overwhelmingly female. Without stats, I'd guess about 70%. The panels don't seem to reflect that, though.

BTW, did you attend this year, Noor? How was it?

I do love Joss Whedon and Terry Pratchett, but I see a bias in that sense that they are sympathetic to women and idealize them and ironically under represent real women while trashing the male side of the equation. They can be forgiven by overcompensating, but it's distracting. This is a small criticism of these gentlemen because I really love them and their contributions and they do have female bad guys...but it's...different from when a sympathetic man writes a bad guy that is a woman. There's still some Vaseline blurring on the lens that I can make out.

I never watched Buffy, I found Whedon through Firefly. Then I was all "WHEDON!". Then I watched Dollhouse. WTH? Ugh, it was vomit-inducing. Never mind the lame plot, acting, etc, what was with the anorexic, highly sexualized women? It's as if he regressed.

Female authors can write an un-abashed, un-victimized female villain and get it right. Guys with hearts and consciences get queasy about that and although that queasiness is admirable in its own way...it's so refreshing to get it straight. In that sense a woman can say things that a man can't get away with. Good. Niche.

I adore a good female villain when the writer/actress/director gets it right. One of the best I've seen recently was Ma-Ma in Dredd. The movie was...okay, but Lena Headey kicked ass!! Mind you, she's equally impressive in GoT in a completely different way.

 

[Recidiva]

I never watched Buffy, I found Whedon through Firefly. Then I was all "WHEDON!". Then I watched Dollhouse. WTH? Ugh, it was vomit-inducing. Never mind the lame plot, acting, etc, what was with the anorexic, highly sexualized women? It's as if he regressed.

I adore a good female villain when the writer/actress/director gets it right. One of the best I've seen recently was Ma-Ma in Dredd. The movie was...okay, but Lena Headey kicked ass!! Mind you, she's equally impressive in GoT in a completely different way.

Dollhouse was AWFUL. Really, really awful. Unforgivable. I usually made sure I was tired when my husband was watching so I could just fall asleep.

Yes! I think Lena Headey was a great reason why I loved Judge Dredd, and I loved the female sidekick that tore someone psychically apart. Yes! That's the kinda rape fantasy I'm into! Lena is also great as Circei and she was great in Terminator and I can't wait to see her in "City of Bones" coming out this week. She plays Jocelyn, a woman who spent her life training to kill demons. Yeeeeeah. Badass.

Thank you ma'am, for no hedging and no apologies. I adore you.

 

[Recidiva]

City of Bones was written by Cassandra Claire, anybody else read them?

I read the first book years ago and thought it was great but nobody else had heard of her. When I saw the movie preview I realized she'd gotten famous and now had a series and I read them all and talked my husband and daughter into doing the same.

She's a smart chick. The movie previews look terribly, terribly serious, but she's very funny and has some kickass unapologetic female characters. I'm looking forward to the movies and was thrilled to see Lena Headey and C. C. H. Pounder as part of them.

Here's one of my favorite Cassandra Claire posts that gives a better idea of her humor, and in the geek theme:

Day One:

Went to Council of Elrond. Aragorn acting all superior as usual. He thinks he's so great because he's shagging that bit of elf crumpet on the side. I mean just because someone has a broad chest, firm, defined muscles, an outdoorsy tan and loads of manly stubble doesn't mean that....what? Got distracted there for a bit.

Seem to have agreed to go on some sort of mission while distracted by Aragorn's enormous...rudeness.

Ooops.

Day Three:

Stupid Ring, stupid Quest, stupid Fellowship.

Day Four:

Frodo dropped Ring today. Picked it up, but Aragorn made me give it back. Arrogant bastard. Wonder how he'd feel with Horn of Gondor shoved right up his...

Stupid Ring.

Day Four:

Is obvious that Aragorn is strangely attracted to Frodo.

Ha Ha! Ha!

Sam will kill him if he tries anything.

Day Six:

Aragorn still into Frodo. "Boromir, give the Ring back to Froooodoo." "Boromir, let *me* carry Frodo up Caradhras." "Boromir, quit trying to cut off Frodo's head while he's asleep so you can get at the Ring."

Blatant favoritism most annoying.

Day Ten:

Why isn't Aragorn into me ?

Day Eleven:

Carried Frodo out of Mines of Moria.

Kind of liked it, actually.

Hope am not turning into pervy hobbit-fancier like Uncle Windermir. Not after what happened to *him.* Merry and Pippin are cute little things, too...

In other news, Gandalf died.

Day 30:

In Lothlorien. Galadriel quite a babe. Feel sure she was attracted to my rugged yet unwashed manliness.

Legolas took a bath in her fountain. Got in trouble. Ha. Ha. Big elfy git. Am quite sure he dyes his hair. Also, he has spot on his nose.

Aragorn suggested we take baths as well. Only realized in nick of time he did not mean with each other.

Stupid Aragorn.

Day 33:

Frodo being all weird about the Ring. Won't even let me look at it. Must admit I had a bit of a tussle with him trying to get a gander at it. Rolled around on him till he went invisible. Resisted urge to have a little cuddle (made easier when he punched me in the face.)

Aragorn would be jealous. Ha!

Day 35:

Killed by orcs.

Stupid orcs.

 

[Keroin]

In other news, Gandalf died.

Ha! *snort*

I haven't read her stuff. Might have to check it out.

 

[Recidiva]

Ha! *snort*

I haven't read her stuff. Might have to check it out.

Cool! She's a lot of fun and it's not Twilighty stuff. The main character girl (Jocelyn/Lena Heady's daughter) isn't valued because she...smells good or is pretty. That was one of my favorite comments when I first read it. She finds a group of people and they give her crap and she has to deal with reality, even though she's pretty. Who cares, they're all damned pretty, can you hold a blade? It has gay characters and bisexual characters.

"How to Come Out to Your Parents," she read out loud. "____. Don't be ridiculous. _____ is not gay, he's a vampire." (names blanked out to avoid spoilers)

It's ruthless and brutal and people die a lot, but it's also funny as hell and has a lot to say about romance and love and conflict.

I hope you like it, if you do, let me know!

 

[Keroin]

Cool! She's a lot of fun and it's not Twilighty stuff. The main character girl (Jocelyn/Lena Heady's daughter) isn't valued because she...smells good or is pretty. That was one of my favorite comments when I first read it. She finds a group of people and they give her crap and she has to deal with reality, even though she's pretty. Who cares, they're all damned pretty, can you hold a blade? It has gay characters and bisexual characters.

"How to Come Out to Your Parents," she read out loud. "____. Don't be ridiculous. _____ is not gay, he's a vampire." (names blanked out to avoid spoilers)

It's ruthless and brutal and people die a lot, but it's also funny as hell and has a lot to say about romance and love and conflict.

I hope you like it, if you do, let me know!

Cool. Will do. I'm about two thirds into Wool by Hugh Howey, right now, and loving it.

 

[Recidiva]

Cool. Will do. I'm about two thirds into Wool by Hugh Howey, right now, and loving it.

Cool, thanks for the recommendation. I've been recommended to read/listen to Anathem, Coming Home and Flags of our Fathers in he last week so I'm going to get through those, but in about two weeks I'll be all set for Wool. Once my new credits come in on Audible. It's like monthly Christmas that I pay for myself. It's on my wish list now. That means no escape.

 

[Keroin]

Cool, thanks for the recommendation. I've been recommended to read/listen to Anathem, Coming Home and Flags of our Fathers in he last week so I'm going to get through those, but in about two weeks I'll be all set for Wool. Once my new credits come in on Audible. It's like monthly Christmas that I pay for myself. It's on my wish list now. That means no escape.

LOL. I soooooo Audible. It is my new favourite thing. I get in so much more "reading" since I signed up.

Fave was Kate Mulgrew reading N0S4A2 by Joe Hill. She rocks.

In fact, in Sept, the writing partner and I are going to run a crowdfunding campaign to raise funds for an audiobook version of the novel. I think audio books are about to explode.

/sidetracked

 

[Noor]

This is something that baffles me. I've attended a few big writer's conventions. The attendees are overwhelmingly female. Without stats, I'd guess about 70%. The panels don't seem to reflect that, though.

BTW, did you attend this year, Noor? How was it?

At the most of the cons I go to there are probably still more men attending than women though they are full of female presenters. When I am more awake I will check the stats. A lot of the usual suspects are women. The writer/cleric Caroline Symcox, married to Paul Cornell, has been presenting at CON the last few years and she is amazing.

Yes, I was at CON this year. It was great! Had a blast. We did our thing, our game, panel and workshops are predominately women, by the way. I highly recommend it and if you do decide to go or have any questions, let me know.

The only bad thing was my friends and I got groped coming out of the Worship the Goddess party on Saturday night, but I did serious damage to the guy's hand.
It was very crowded, we had to walk up some steps through wall to wall people, I heard friend 1 yelp, and then friend 2, so I put my hands where I thought he might go, waited until he grabbed me and twisted his fingers one way, and wrist the other. Friend 1 says should we report this?, the guy screams, friend 2 says no I think Noor took care of it. I did report it but there were so many people I didn't know exactly who did it though there was a guy who kept hiding his hands when I went by on Sunday.

I should be at the second year of Meta con at the end of the month. I be just attending and not working it which will be cool! Steam Power Giraffe is playing and doing panels so I am psyched! It is put on by anime types, though not an anime con, and I am uncertain about the sex ratios. I went to it last year for a day and attended their date auction which was hilarious and not sexist at all.

 

[Recidiva]

LOL. I soooooo Audible. It is my new favourite thing. I get in so much more "reading" since I signed up.

Fave was Kate Mulgrew reading N0S4A2 by Joe Hill. She rocks.

In fact, in Sept, the writing partner and I are going to run a crowdfunding campaign to raise funds for an audiobook version of the novel. I think audio books are about to explode.

/sidetracked

Yes! Me too. And I can do a lot more "vacation" listening that's my favorites, so every year I'll re-listen to all of Game of Thrones and re-listen to all of Tolkein and all of Harry Potter and go through my favorite authors more often while also getting new content. I will never go back to reading Harry Potter if Stephen Fry is available to read it to me. Tina Fey's book Bossypants in her voice? Yes, please! I also use the Overdrive interface to get books from the library that I might not want to buy.

That is a great idea, I think they're a huge convenience and essentially I don't use my cell phone for calls, it's mostly an MP3 player. I'm more likely to go for audio content first and I'm less inclined to get around to it as quickly if it isn't.

 

[Recidiva]

At the most of the cons I go to there are probably still more men attending than women though they are full of female presenters. When I am more awake I will check the stats. A lot of the usual suspects are women. The writer/cleric Caroline Symcox, married to Paul Cornell, has been presenting at CON the last few years and she is amazing.

Yes, I was at CON this year. It was great! Had a blast. We did our thing, our game, panel and workshops are predominately women, by the way. I highly recommend it and if you do decide to go or have any questions, let me know.

The only bad thing was my friends and I got groped coming out of the Worship the Goddess party on Saturday night, but I did serious damage to the guy's hand.
It was very crowded, we had to walk up some steps through wall to wall people, I heard friend 1 yelp, and then friend 2, so I put my hands where I thought he might go, waited until he grabbed me and twisted his fingers one way, and wrist the other. Friend 1 says should we report this?, the guy screams, friend 2 says no I think Noor took care of it. I did report it but there were so many people I didn't know exactly who did it though there was a guy who kept hiding his hands when I went by on Sunday.

I should be at the second year of Meta con at the end of the month. I be just attending and not working it which will be cool! Steam Power Giraffe is playing and doing panels so I am psyched! It is put on by anime types, though not an anime con, and I am uncertain about the sex ratios. I went to it last year for a day and attended their date auction which was hilarious and not sexist at all.

I you.

 

[KoPilot]

because the flathead was the only screwdriver anyone had, for along time, until Henry J. Phillips started making them in 1935.

The Bechdtel test was never meant to be the definitive and only. It was just a casual punchline to a complaint in a comic strip.

Death of the author. Fact of the matter is that too many people use it to measure too much.

Honestly? I do not look forward to the day that someone comes along and tells me that I'm all talk because my (currently in-progress) work isn't sufficiently feminist because it doesn't pass. Then it just brings up the question of whether or not someone AFAB simply being in this industry, making the work they want to make and being beholden to no one, is sufficiently feminist.

 

[Keroin]

Then it just brings up the question of whether or not someone AFAB simply being in this industry, making the work they want to make and being beholden to no one, is sufficiently feminist.

This is also a question for me, even though I'm just your garden variety female. Because while I want a more balanced world out there, both fictional and real, I don't want to only read about strong women who chew gum and kick ass and take names and whatever. And I don't only want to write those stories, either. I love flaws and weaknesses. I want to be free to explore the full spectrum.

 

[Recidiva]

This is also a question for me, even though I'm just your garden variety female. Because while I want a more balanced world out there, both fictional and real, I don't want to only read about strong women who chew gum and kick ass and take names and whatever. And I don't only want to write those stories, either. I love flaws and weaknesses. I want to be free to explore the full spectrum.

I think it's fascinating how these things evolve. I think socially many people are sympathetic to "the woman in distress" for whatever that reason is, I can't say if that's a socializing choice or a genetic choice...but you can reverse engineer the whole "damsel in distress" meme to that.

If you want the audience's sympathy, put a woman in danger. If you want your audience to expect someone to get off their ass and do something about it, put a man in danger. So I see a lot of women in helpless danger, and although I can intellectually understand that it's there because it's a fast way to easy brain chemistry, that's why I dislike it.

Sure, women are in danger sometimes, but I get sick of the trope the same way I get sick of gratuitous shower scenes.

 

[BrightlyGo]

I can't wait to see her in "City of Bones" coming out this week. .

i saw this and thought "Martha Wells got a movie deal?"

Nope. Teased & denied, again.

 

[Stella_Omega]

This is also a question for me, even though I'm just your garden variety female. Because while I want a more balanced world out there, both fictional and real, I don't want to only read about strong women who chew gum and kick ass and take names and whatever. And I don't only want to write those stories, either. I love flaws and weaknesses. I want to be free to explore the full spectrum.

For decades and decades of popular culture, there were no strong women who chewed gum kicked ass and named names, there were only damsels in distress, nagging antagonists, loyal mothers, and wise helpmeets behind the thrones.

I don't think there are many strong women who kick ass and take names in popular entertainment, even still. They do have weaknesses. Buffy had weaknesses and flaws. It was exhilarating to see, just once, a Girl Clint Eastwood. It hasn't been done again. It's like; "Okay, we checked off one feminist request, are we good?"

Joss Whedon is feminist in his own way, not in any universal way. Fuck knows what he was doing with Dollhouse, although I have an inkling of where he wated to go with it-- but it didn't serve as entertainment for the women who were hoping for more woman-led plot, not in the form he was presenting it. But men get the contracts. Women not so much.

 

[Recidiva]

i saw this and thought "Martha Wells got a movie deal?"

Nope. Teased & denied, again.

Sorry for bringing up such an inadvertently painful subject. May your dearest projects all make it past budget committee. *salaam*

 

[Stella_Omega]

Death of the author. Fact of the matter is that too many people use it to measure too much.

Honestly? I do not look forward to the day that someone comes along and tells me that I'm all talk because my (currently in-progress) work isn't sufficiently feminist because it doesn't pass. Then it just brings up the question of whether or not someone AFAB simply being in this industry, making the work they want to make and being beholden to no one, is sufficiently feminist.

Easy; have two of your women talk about something. Just.. stick it in a paragraph in a scene somewhere that you can point to when anyone asks.


I mean.. there are a lot of women in this industry and others who have succeeded by buying in to the mysogyny of their male overlords, so to speak. I've written furious letters to women comedy writers, for instance.

You write a book that is all about men doing the things men like to think men do, and you'll be a woman doing well in a male dominated industry.

 

[Recidiva]

Easy; have two of your women talk about something. Just.. stick it in a paragraph in a scene somewhere that you can point to when anyone asks.

They can even talk about whether or not their conversation is feminist enough, just to make it very meta.

 

[Stella_Omega]

They can even talk about whether or not their conversation is feminist enough, just to make it very meta.

"Pass me that Bechtdel's head screwdriver would you?"

 

[Recidiva]

"Pass me that Bechtdel's head screwdriver would you?"

"Why do I have to hand it to you? Does my demeanor scream "personal assistant" to you? Is it my clothes? it's my shoes. Don't tell me it's my shoes. Here's your screwdriver."

 

[Stella_Omega]

"Why do I have to hand it to you? Does my demeanor scream "personal assistant" to you? Is it my clothes? it's my shoes. Don't tell me it's my shoes. Here's your screwdriver."

"Nothing screams 'personal assistant' like regulation jackboots, yeah. Thanks...

Fuck.

If I ask for the DW40 are you gonna snap my head off about it?"

 

[Recidiva]

"Nothing screams 'personal assistant' like regulation jackboots, yeah. Thanks...

Fuck.

If I ask for the DW40 are you gonna snap my head off about it?"

*turns boots from side to side*

I like the riveting. It's custom, not regulation. At least they said so. What do I know from jackboots? I shall call them...Jillboots.

No. Not unless you ask nicely. But I probably don't know where it is. Besides, manners are social lubrication and that's probably all you need.