Being a woman in geek culture

[Recidiva]

Great! And everyone else is continuing the conversation. And it involves sexism, which involves feminism. So...

Not sure of the problem?

There really isn't one as far as I'm concerned. It's been a great conversation.

As stated, I disagree with things like...

Stella telling me I'm not aware of gear issues in MMO's when Stella doesn't play the game she's criticizing and I've played for 10 years.

You telling me what geek culture should be like when you don't know what it's like or why it's like that, you just want to tell me what it should be like and why I should make it that way.

These are not your experiences in being in geek culture, these are your experiences of being critical of geek culture without being involved in geek culture.

Your criticisms of "geek" culture are really criticisms of overall culture from a feminist viewpoint that only women suffer and only women get bad experiences, and that it must be caused only by men.

 

[Keroin]

You telling me what geek culture should be like when you don't know what it's like or why it's like that, you just want to tell me what it should be like and why I should make it that way.

These are not your experiences in being in geek culture, these are your experiences of being critical of geek culture without being involved in geek culture.

Your criticisms of "geek" culture are really criticisms of overall culture from a feminist viewpoint that only women suffer and only women get bad experiences, and that it must be caused only by men.

Whoa, now that's you putting words in my mouth. Please show me where I said the part in bold?

Women are not the only ones who suffer and it's not always men who are the cause when they do. When have I ever stated differently?

Also, I may not claim the label "geek" but I'm a writer of speculative fiction and have been for ten years, I love sci-fi and always have--books, movies, you name it. I have a published novel, (sci-fi adventure), and another one coming out in September. And three more to follow. No, I don't game or cosplay, but...wait, I have to show you my cred in order to participate in a discussion on geek culture? Nope. You don't get to be the gatekeeper to my experience.

 

[Recidiva]

Whoa, now that's you putting words in my mouth. Please show me where I said the part in bold?

Women are not the only ones who suffer and it's not always men who are the cause when they do. When have I ever stated differently?

Also, I may not claim the label "geek" but I'm a writer of speculative fiction and have been for ten years, I love sci-fi and always have--books, movies, you name it. I have a published novel, (sci-fi adventure), and another one coming out in September. And three more to follow. No, I don't game or cosplay, but...wait, I have to show you my cred in order to participate in a discussion on geek culture? Nope. You don't get to be the gatekeeper to my experience.

If that was hyperbole and was offensive in its content, I apologize. It was direct but not intended to insult. I do not think and nor is there evidence this thread is not that you hate men or you dislike men or that all men cause problems. I was discussing the content of some of the articles, not what I think is in the back of your head.

In this specific sense...you've implied that you are more sensitive to and also more involved in, women's issues and protecting women than I am. You've spoken about men beating women, but if I discuss women beating men, you don't really see the flip side or want to discuss it. And that's fine if there's no response to that bit. That sort of thing.

No, I'm not being a gatekeeper. You are Fish Geek and whatever geek you wish. But I do feel you have invalidated my overall positive experience by throwing negative stories in the media at me as if I were unaware of them, and I do think it's stories from a feminist viewpoint that tend to make men the problem. I see that you're trying to provide balance you think I lack, without asking if I am aware of the issues or if I am involved.

You've also stated you think the world should simply BE better and I should have higher expectations, and I identify that with a feminist viewpoint that I do not share.

Clearer?

 

[Stella_Omega]

I try to avoid certain brands of feminism...but it's a fact lots of feminists are smart and fun to talk to or I wouldn't fall for it over and over.

As long as there's entertainment value, huh? I wish more parts of feminism were more entertaining, feminism would have a much bigger audience.

I try not to argue. But really that can mostly only be accomplished by being offline.

Sometimes I wonder if logging on to Lit is an aggressive act on my part.

Passive aggressive-- I'm seeing a lot of that from you.

Stella telling me I'm not aware of gear issues in MMO's when Stella doesn't play the game she's criticizing and I've played for 10 years.

Stella telling you that unless you acknowledge the gear issues in the game you've been playing, someone else will bring them up.

And I brought them up because that was one of the reasons I didn't become a gamer. That sexism drove me off-- there wasn't any fix back then.

You telling me what geek culture should be like when you don't know what it's like or why it's like that, you just want to tell me what it should be like and why I should make it that way.

Telling you that you can't deny it's that way. Telling you that you need to acknowledge that thousands of women want to see a change. You figure it works for you? You're golden. There will always be a place for women who like the way the boys play. The women who want to play on their own terms are the ones that get rape threats, not you.

Why is it like that, in your opinion?

 

[Recidiva]

As long as there's entertainment value, huh? I wish more parts of feminism were more entertaining, feminism would have a much bigger audience. Passive aggressive-- I'm seeing a lot of that from you.

Stella telling you that unless you acknowledge the gear issues in the game you've been playing, someone else will bring them up.

And I brought them up because that was one of the reasons I didn't become a gamer. That sexism drove me off-- there wasn't any fix back then.


Telling you that you can't deny it's that way. Telling you that you need to acknowledge that thousands of women want to see a change. You figure it works for you? You're golden. There will always be a place for women who like the way the boys play. The women who want to play on their own terms are the ones that get rape threats, not you.

Why is it like that, in your opinion?

Stella, I've really enjoyed speaking with you in the past, but this isn't one of those occasions. I don't want to do more harm than good. We've been over this enough that I feel that neither of us are going to learn anything from hammering at each other and saying the same things.

I'm not ignoring you out of spite or horror or anger, I'm kinda sad about it that we can't have a civil discourse.

I'm going to bow out of arguing with you because I don't think it will accomplish anything other than unnecessary battering that the world doesn't need and if they wanted to see it could just review old threads we've been in together. I don't need to go through it again.

If you want to win, you can win. I just really don't think it's worth it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Recidiva-- I've watched you sidestep and sidle and put words into people's mouths all the way through this discussion, interpret observations about thewords you have said as if they are somehow insults about yourself. I've seen you say things like "feminists think there's only one right kind of woman" which is reductive self-pitying bullshit.

This thread-- 'women in geek culture" is not about "A woman in geek culture." We are talking statistics, not anecdotes.

I have had lots of positive experiences-- in singular circumstances. That does not alter the fact that for an awful lot of geeky women the experience has been unpleasent enough to drive them away, and I have had my share of those as well.

Geekitude is not about being tougher than the boys. It's not about playing by the rules the boys have set up. It's not about being meaner and tougher and countering insult with insult or else you don't deserve to be a gamer. This is how you do it, and it's how a lot of women have done it. But you don't get to sneer at women who want to play by a different set of rules for that, and who get attacked and most especially-- do not get to imply that those women are being attacked by outliers.

 

[Keroin]

If that was hyperbole and was offensive in its content, I apologize. It was direct but not intended to insult. I do not think and nor is there evidence this thread is not that you hate men or you dislike men or that all men cause problems. I was discussing the content of some of the articles, not what I think is in the back of your head.

Thank you for the apology and the clarification.

In this specific sense...you've implied that you are more sensitive to and also more involved in, women's issues and protecting women than I am.

What I'm stating is simply that I am involved in a different way. I don't know how to make that more clear. You have your way of interpreting and dealing with the world and I have mine. Mine is not better, nor do I do expect you to think, feel, or act the way I do. I'm not attacking you or trying to discredit your views by stating my own.

You've spoken about men beating women, but if I discuss women beating men, you don't really see the flip side or want to discuss it. And that's fine if there's no response to that bit. That sort of thing.

Huh? Sorry, I think I missed something. I am completely open to discussing the mistreatment of men by women but not in this thread.

No, I'm not being a gatekeeper. You are Fish Geek and whatever geek you wish. But I do feel you have invalidated my overall positive experience by throwing negative stories in the media at me as if I were unaware of them, and I do think it's stories from a feminist viewpoint that tend to make men the problem. I see that you're trying to provide balance you think I lack, without asking if I am aware of the issues or if I am involved.

I wasn't throwing, I was sharing. I didn't realize I needed to check with anyone before I did that? You've had a positive experience, that's awesome. Other people haven't. Why can't we talk about that?

But this is obviously a sore spot. So any more articles I link to will in no way be directed at you and I'll make that clear. In fact, I'll disengage from discussion completely for awhile. My intention was never to hurt anyone.

You've also stated you think the world should simply BE better and I should have higher expectations, and I identify that with a feminist viewpoint that I do not share.

Yes, I think the world should be better. That's my viewpoint and I think I'm allowed to have it. I have never stated that you, specific you, should have higher expectations. If I have, please show me. I have very general feelings and ideas about how the world should be for women. I have some specific feelings and ideas about how we, general we, can accomplish that change. But no one else has to get on board with that. I put the ideas out there...end of story.

 

[Recidiva]

Thank you for the apology and the clarification.

What I'm stating is simply that I am involved in a different way. I don't know how to make that more clear. You have your way of interpreting and dealing with the world and I have mine. Mine is not better, nor do I do expect you to think, feel, or act the way I do. I'm not attacking you or trying to discredit your views by stating my own.

Huh? Sorry, I think I missed something. I am completely open to discussing the mistreatment of men by women but not in this thread.

I wasn't throwing, I was sharing. I didn't realize I needed to check with anyone before I did that? You've had a positive experience, that's awesome. Other people haven't. Why can't we talk about that?

But this is obviously a sore spot. So any more articles I link to will in no way be directed at you and I'll make that clear. In fact, I'll disengage from discussion completely for awhile. My intention was never to hurt anyone.

Yes, I think the world should be better. That's my viewpoint and I think I'm allowed to have it. I have never stated that you, specific you, should have higher expectations. If I have, please show me. I have very general feelings and ideas about how the world should be for women. I have some specific feelings and ideas about how we, general we, can accomplish that change. But no one else has to get on board with that. I put the ideas out there...end of story.

No, really, I'm not sore and I think you're wonderful and I'm just tweaking small points that seem to zoom off on some tangent I never intended them to be.

and...she can't hear me.

okay.

 

[KoPilot]

But I do feel you have invalidated my overall positive experience by throwing negative stories in the media at me as if I were unaware of them, and I do think it's stories from a feminist viewpoint that tend to make men the problem. I see that you're trying to provide balance you think I lack, without asking if I am aware of the issues or if I am involved.

For me personally, I know that the good, positive stories exist. I know that there are good people and good men in geekdom. I know that. The stories I've always gotten about geeky dudes is that they're awkward and weird, but ultimately harmless. I never got the memo that geeks could be just as violent and mean and hostile as the popular kids, and that I was especially "safe" because I was a social outcast who enjoyed SF/F books and video games too. The message was that I was to be welcomed with open, friendly, aspie arms, and that was that. Geek hostility is portrayed as being more endearing than not. And so on.

I just feel like general anecdotes about welcoming hamlets in geekdom doesn't actually further the discourse in any meaningful way. It's good to hear, but then it's like... "ok, what now".

 

[Recidiva]

For me personally, I know that the good, positive stories exist. I know that there are good people and good men in geekdom. I know that. The stories I've always gotten about geeky dudes is that they're awkward and weird, but ultimately harmless. I never got the memo that geeks could be just as violent and mean and hostile as the popular kids, and that I was especially "safe" because I was a social outcast who enjoyed SF/F books and video games too. The message was that I was to be welcomed with open, friendly, aspie arms, and that was that. Geek hostility is portrayed as being more endearing than not. And so on.

I just feel like general anecdotes about welcoming hamlets in geekdom doesn't actually further the discourse in any meaningful way. It's good to hear, but then it's like... "ok, what now".

I'm glad you have good experiences and memories. I'm married to a kickass geek dude, and no offense, but I won't sell him out for the symmetry of it. I loves him.

I'm so sorry for your experience.

I've never thought any subgroup of people were harmless, and I'm certainly not saying that it's a happy shiny world, and never have. Rest assured I'm not lulling people to their doom. I do go out of my way to help shelter newbies from the worst of it if I can.

 

[KoPilot]

I'm glad you have good experiences and memories. I'm married to a kickass geek dude, and no offense, but I won't sell him out for the symmetry of it. I loves him.

I'm so sorry for your experience.

I've never thought any subgroup of people were harmless, and I'm certainly not saying that it's a happy shiny world, and never have. Rest assured I'm not lulling people to their doom. I do go out of my way to help shelter newbies from the worst of it if I can.

I'm glad that you do that. Once again, I wish I could.

And my husband is a life-long nerd too. Grew up on NES and 80's cartoons. He collects Uncle Scrooge comics. But it was super jarring to have one of his good friends, one of the top dudes responsible for that game Prototype, make a rape joke at me in private (one that was directed at me and at my expense), and then get indignant when I called him out on it. It took a lot to get husband to understand why I no longer approved of him being "a good friend" anymore.

Soooo many little experiences like this I can call on.

 

[Recidiva]

I'm glad that you do that. Once again, I wish I could.

And my husband is a life-long nerd too. Grew up on NES and 80's cartoons. He collects Uncle Scrooge comics. But it was super jarring to have one of his good friends, one of the top dudes responsible for that game Prototype, make a rape joke at me in private (one that was directed at me and at my expense), and then get indignant when I called him out on it. Soooo many little experiences like this I can call on.

Yes, my son has made rape jokes or referred to beating someone in the game as getting raped. It's horrific. And that's not even at my expense, just coming from someone that I'd really hope would know better but doesn't, and has absorbed that crap from the general attitude around him.

I have a very tough skin and a habit of quick riposte, but that's from long practice, not from indifference.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yes, my son has made rape jokes or referred to beating someone in the game as getting raped. It's horrific. And that's not even at my expense, just coming from someone that I'd really hope would know better but doesn't, and has absorbed that crap from the general attitude around him.

I have a very tough skin and a habit of quick riposte, but that's from long practice, not from indifference.

Do you say anything to him about it?

ETA: she probably has me on ignore, but it's a worthwhile question, in the context.

 

[BrightlyGo]

In my opinion, the only way we can show the few people that WOULD carry out these threats that it is NOT okay is to take every threat seriously and act accordingly.

My point was merely that such things don't come from some dismissably-tiny fringe of 'insane' people.

That the less-insane folks engaging in hyperbole with threats they don't mean might encourage those crazy enough to carry them out is a good point, though.

 

[Keroin]

I was thinking on my experience in Geek culture and that made me wonder about the influence of geographical culture.

Anyway, much of my time in geekworld is in my own head thanks to a) the fact that I've lived in pretty remote locations and b) I'm a writer and the very foundation of my job involves being alone most of the time. Because of this, I don't interact with many geeks in any way that would invite conflict.

That may change as I've now entered the promo/marketing/rub-elbows-wth-real-people-at-cons-and-stuff phase of the career.

However, I am a member of a group of speculative fiction professionals--basically the Canadian equivalent of SFWA. This group of men and women have been AMAZING and welcoming from day one. I was super intimidated when I was accepted for membership because there are some real heavy hitters in this group - Cory Doctorow, Robert J Sawyer, etc. I had nothing to worry about, I couldn't have asked for a more supportive and inclusive bunch of folks.

But this makes me wonder about the culture thing. Over at SFWA I know that there is a lot of conflict going on right now around the treatment of female members and staff. The dispute is quite public, people have taken sides, and there's a lot of hate coming out of that. So what is it about that organization that is so different from the one I belong to? Is it the culture? Is it the numbers?

I don't know.

 

[Recidiva]

I was thinking on my experience in Geek culture and that made me wonder about the influence of geographical culture.

Anyway, much of my time in geekworld is in my own head thanks to a) the fact that I've lived in pretty remote locations and b) I'm a writer and the very foundation of my job involves being alone most of the time. Because of this, I don't interact with many geeks in any way that would invite conflict.

That may change as I've now entered the promo/marketing/rub-elbows-wth-real-people-at-cons-and-stuff phase of the career.

However, I am a member of a group of speculative fiction professionals--basically the Canadian equivalent of SFWA. This group of men and women have been AMAZING and welcoming from day one. I was super intimidated when I was accepted for membership because there are some real heavy hitters in this group - Cory Doctorow, Robert J Sawyer, etc. I had nothing to worry about, I couldn't have asked for a more supportive and inclusive bunch of folks.

But this makes me wonder about the culture thing. Over at SFWA I know that there is a lot of conflict going on right now around the treatment of female members and staff. The dispute is quite public, people have taken sides, and there's a lot of hate coming out of that. So what is it about that organization that is so different from the one I belong to? Is it the culture? Is it the numbers?

I don't know.

I really don't know and don't claim to know the actual answers. Nature/nurture. Socialization/indoctrination. Genetics/reason.

I had mentioned that I think the more popular things become, the more competition in an area infiltrates it.

When I began nerd-dom, that meant...playing Wizardry on my dad's computer at 2 a.m. and communicating with Star Trek fans by mail and standing in line to see Star Wars 11 times.

I am essentially a solitary practitioner in the sense that I don't go out much to events, I'm basically a consumer and not a creator, and I am so damned into this stuff that I've never allowed anybody else to make me feel excluded, because I knew this was my place.

I know the common myths, but I always considered them to be "outsider" myths, not things geeks themselves thought about themselves. I dispelled the "geeks aren't normal" myth 20 years ago when I'd have parties bringing people in from all over the country to meet and hang out at my place from a MUD I frequented. (A text group adventure game)

So I can't speak to "professional" geekdom in that sense. I CAN speak to professional performance. I have also been a singer and actress and loved performing all through school, and couldn't stand being around actors in general and dropped out of drama school very quickly. Making it professional completely ruined the fun of it for me. For that reason I'm also an amateur writer. I'm not interested in selling myself or my image or my product. I don't have to be concerned about it, it doesn't affect my bottom line or my survival, therefore very low stress levels on that front. By choice.

So professional concerns are entirely different from amateur concerns.

That said, I've seen competition grow, obviously, because gamers aren't any longer passing around labors of love like "Adventure" on floppy discs. It's big business now, and although that gives the consumers more options, it gives creators more competition.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I was thinking on my experience in Geek culture and that made me wonder about the influence of geographical culture.

Anyway, much of my time in geekworld is in my own head thanks to a) the fact that I've lived in pretty remote locations and b) I'm a writer and the very foundation of my job involves being alone most of the time. Because of this, I don't interact with many geeks in any way that would invite conflict.

That may change as I've now entered the promo/marketing/rub-elbows-wth-real-people-at-cons-and-stuff phase of the career.

However, I am a member of a group of speculative fiction professionals--basically the Canadian equivalent of SFWA. This group of men and women have been AMAZING and welcoming from day one. I was super intimidated when I was accepted for membership because there are some real heavy hitters in this group - Cory Doctorow, Robert J Sawyer, etc. I had nothing to worry about, I couldn't have asked for a more supportive and inclusive bunch of folks.

But this makes me wonder about the culture thing. Over at SFWA I know that there is a lot of conflict going on right now around the treatment of female members and staff. The dispute is quite public, people have taken sides, and there's a lot of hate coming out of that. So what is it about that organization that is so different from the one I belong to? Is it the culture? Is it the numbers?

I don't know.

Well, the men of SFWA always claimed, and firmly believed, that they were inclusive and welcoming of the pretty little ladies.

They've been shocked and hurt beyond belief by the mean responses they have been getting lately, from pretty little ladies who are not, in fact, feeling pretty or little-- or ladylike. Gosh darn it, liberation has just gone too far! Some of those women even claim that their non-hardware sci-fi is as legitimate as the dudely stuff!

I had an enormous box full of old science fiction magazines from the 50's 60's. The writers were all men, and the women the writers wrote were all 50's/60's men's ideas of what women should be, which were a lot like Raymond Chandler's women only not even half as developed because these were short stories, the focus was on the men's doings, and who cared really?

I cared. I didn't know how to handle caring, but I'll tell you-- there's nothing like a chronic case of genital dysphoria to sensitise a girl regarding scorn for the genitals she's stuck with.

 

[intothewoods]

Do you say anything to him about it?

ETA: she probably has me on ignore, but it's a worthwhile question, in the context.

Jesus, I hope so. I would go fucking ballistic if my son ever used the word rape in that way.

 

[KoPilot]

May I present the Mako Mori Test: http://www.dailydot.com/fandom/mako-mori-test-bechdel-pacific-rim/

Basically... my thoughts align with the person who coined the thing. The Bechdel Test has its place, but it's not the end-all be-all of determining a story's feminist cred, and I hate it when it's applied in a really lazy, reductive manner. I mean, I just bristle at the idea of misogynistic lesbian porn passing while Mulan doesn't?

Anyways, this is the Bechdel alternative I've been waiting for.

 

[Keroin]

May I present the Mako Mori Test: http://www.dailydot.com/fandom/mako-mori-test-bechdel-pacific-rim/

Basically... my thoughts align with the person who coined the thing. The Bechdel Test has its place, but it's not the end-all be-all of determining a story's feminist cred, and I hate it when it's applied in a really lazy, reductive manner. I mean, I just bristle at the idea of misogynistic lesbian porn passing while Mulan doesn't?

Anyways, this is the Bechdel alternative I've been waiting for.

I love this. The Bechdel Test bugged me when I applied it to my own work. I have a kick ass female protagonist who has her own "thing" and that was very much a conscious decision. As was the decision to put her in a male-heavy world. One should not negate the other.

Thanks KP!

 

[Netzach]

I think these tests are just kind of general temperatures you can use. You stick a bechdel up a movie's butt and a mori and see if it's running 101 degrees or dead. I think pitting the metrics against each other as definitive is silly.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Jesus, I hope so. I would go fucking ballistic if my son ever used the word rape in that way.

Mine told his friends that the word "gay" wasn't an insult. Most of his friends stopped using it-- at least around him.

 

[KoPilot]

I think these tests are just kind of general temperatures you can use. You stick a bechdel up a movie's butt and a mori and see if it's running 101 degrees or dead. I think pitting the metrics against each other as definitive is silly.

Well yeah, media literacy and criticism requires a jillion more things than this. It's just like having a phillips and a flathead in your toolbox. You can mostly get by with one, but seriously, why not have both?

 

[Stella_Omega]

Well yeah, media literacy and criticism requires a jillion more things than this. It's just like having a phillips and a flathead in your toolbox. You can mostly get by with one, but seriously, why not have both?

because the flathead was the only screwdriver anyone had, for along time, until Henry J. Phillips started making them in 1935.

The Bechdtel test was never meant to be the definitive and only. It was just a casual punchline to a complaint in a comic strip.

 

[Noor]

Cons are changing

Many Guests of Honor are taking the stance of not wanting to be on any panel that does not include women.

In writing about CONvergence 2013, Paul Cornell wrote "I appeared on seventeen panels, only one short of my personal best, all of them featuring at least one woman. The latter feat, still beyond the power of many events, was achieved without seeming effort on the part of the convention."
He also told us that we were the best con in the world