Being a woman in geek culture

[Keroin]

Recidiva, I understand that you have a lovely corner of the gaming/internet world that you protect with tooth and claw. You've also explained why you choose to filter out life's negativity, which makes your position understandable. For a long time, I would have felt much the same way, with the dreaded "man up" attitude and my usual happy spin on everything.

I still have a happy spin, on my own life, but I've become increasingly aware that there are a LOT of women and young girls out there who, for a multitude of reasons, can't just "man up" or don't want to fight day in and day out. Nor should they have to. In North America, we're becoming more aware of bullying and its devastating effects. Well, a lot of women have spent their lives being bullied in ways large and small. Geek culture should be a refuge, it should be a safe place. From the overwhelming amount of women who are coming out to share their stories, it is obviously not so.

For the record, I don't consider myself a geek. (Fish geek? Sure. I'll take that). But I interact in the community and so I have a vested interest in actively helping to make it better.

Now, as regards the death threats, yes to the comments that have been made by Stella, Satin, and Netz.

If you haven't read this one yet, it's worth a browse:

Plague of game dev harassment erodes industry, spurs support groups

I agree with what Stephen Toulouse has to say about online threats:

"The root cause of the problem isn't in what we do, making games, it's that there are so little consequences to this wildly violent approach of communication that we are simply one audience of many that are subject to this type of focus," he said. "There's no real penalty right now."

Also, for anyone who read the Polygon article, along with death and rape threats, apparently there is now also "swatting", which is not an empty threat and takes the ridiculous fan anger to another letter.

This also happened to Toulouse.

For Toulouse that consequence-free harassment even included swatting, essentially tricking a law enforcement agency to respond to a person's house for what they think is a violent confrontation.

"Even the swatting thing, only now that Justin Bieber gets swatted, do prosecutors go, 'Oh, we should probably do something about this'," he said. "I couldn't get the Seattle police interested to save their lives, in prosecuting the kids who were doing this. I'm like, 'Come on, guys, they're sending your SWAT team out. What if you shot somebody. Don't you have an interest in going after these kids?' And they're like, 'No, because they are kids and at the end of the day it will be a juvenile sentence in juvenile court and that doesn't give prosecutors headlines.'"

Now, let me be clear, I know that these crazies are the minority, but there's also the everyday harassment and threats against women gamers and game developers. And, even if this is still the minority of gamers, (as I'm sure it is), and most gamers are lovely people, (which I'm sure they are), there's obviously a problem that needs to be addressed. I worked in a testosterone-fueled man business for ten years and endured my share of sexism and misogyny but not even close to the level I've heard many female gamers and developers describe.

Again: I'm not saying gaming is bad. It must be a lot of fun or so many people wouldn't enjoy it so much or feel so passionately about it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

One of the problems I have with this theory is this:

Not all men are rapists. But do you know what happens in the brains of male rapists? They think ALL men are rapists...-they just hide it better-. They don't get caught. So when they see rape/death threats being ignored as "harmless" (because no one means it in the general public's opinions) that honest-to-god ENCOURAGES them to act, because the words had no impact so neither will the actions.

Yes, it's not an everyday occurrence. No, not every man that makes a rape or death threat on a woman will do it, but if we ignore it as harmless then we are sending the message that IT IS OKAY TO DO THESE THINGS because NO ONE CARES.

In my opinion, the only way we can show the few people that WOULD carry out these threats that it is NOT okay is to take every threat seriously and act accordingly.

Even just hearing, once in a while, THAT IS NOT OKAY-- makes a difference in a person's mind.

Exactly. Do we really want to ignore a threat that looks no different from one that would be acted upon? There's no way to tell the difference. For all we know, a guy could use some sort of IP tracker to look up the woman in question's address and really assault/murder her.

Easy enough to do, and plenty of these guys have taken to calling women's houses and jobs to harass them.

Back to the everyday-ness of sexism, the gamer girls that I know who say they have no problem with men being pigs-- they have adopted the same gendered language. "Shut your whore mouth" is a phrase I cannot get out of my memory, for instance-- coming out of the mouth of a college aged woman wearing a kilt and a sword on her back. So yeah, she's one of the boys, and it's great for her, but woe betide a woman who doesn't want to be manly.

 

[KoPilot]

Exactly. Do we really want to ignore a threat that looks no different from one that would be acted upon? There's no way to tell the difference. For all we know, a guy could use some sort of IP tracker to look up the woman in question's address and really assault/murder her.

Not to mention that it completely ignores the fact that verbal abuse and harassment actually does damage also.

 

[Recidiva]

Recidiva, I understand that you have a lovely corner of the gaming/internet world that you protect with tooth and claw. You've also explained why you choose to filter out life's negativity, which makes your position understandable. For a long time, I would have felt much the same way, with the dreaded "man up" attitude and my usual happy spin on everything.

I still have a happy spin, on my own life, but I've become increasingly aware that there are a LOT of women and young girls out there who, for a multitude of reasons, can't just "man up" or don't want to fight day in and day out. Nor should they have to. In North America, we're becoming more aware of bullying and its devastating effects. Well, a lot of women have spent their lives being bullied in ways large and small. Geek culture should be a refuge, it should be a safe place. From the overwhelming amount of women who are coming out to share their stories, it is obviously not so.

For the record, I don't consider myself a geek. (Fish geek? Sure. I'll take that). But I interact in the community and so I have a vested interest in actively helping to make it better.

I honor what you're doing and I have no disagreement with the way you're doing it.

In my experience, and again, this is mine, the Universe is a hostile place, the Earth is a hostile place and social interactions have every probability of reflecting that nature. I can do what I can to temper that and help fix what I can, but entropy is the reality and I can't ever get to the point where I think that my opinion will alter that except in a limited, local way where I have influence and power.

I do not have the starting assumptions that you have about social interaction, so my actions and philosophy are different. Cultures evolve in a Darwinian sense and every sub culture becomes competitive and conflict-ridden.

Fish geek?

Geek is a very large and undefined group that encompasses so many topics that it is difficult to focus. I am a gamer geek and a science fiction geek and a fantasy geek and a skeptic geek. (I am, alas, unable to claim fish geek...)

You want to make the world safer for women, so do I. I want to make the world safer for everyone. I am aware that I deal with the world as it is, not the world I would like it to be or think it should be.

I admire your idealism and I don't know where you got the idea that I'm somehow opposing you or opposing women with your approach. I just have a different one and I expressed it.

The title of this thread is..."Being A Woman In Geek Culture" and I was interested in the topic.

I've stated why I know I'm not a feminist, I've stated why I see things differently, but I do draw the line at having the labels "geek" or "woman" taken away from me somehow because I've made it work for me and others haven't.

I do not think that the expectation that sub-cultures that are entirely voluntary should be all-encompassingly welcoming to everyone with no exceptions is a reasonable expectation.

In here I am discussing MY experience in GEEK culture, and it's being misread somehow as if I'm saying ALL people should behave like me in ALL cultures, and it's unfair.

 

[Recidiva]

Another reason I'm not a feminist.

You're as likely to be told you're not being the "right" kind of woman from women as you are from men.

 

[KoPilot]

Jesus, I'm sorry to hear that happened to you. That's horrible and I don't blame you for not wanting to dive in blades glinting if those are the memories it brings to the fore.

I have no history of abuse. I can't possibly advise you on how to navigate that.

I can offer sympathy and honor your struggle and want to punch out anybody who gets in your way. Geek culture would take a hit if you left.

Going back to this... I'm not going to go to someone with no history of abuse to ask for advice on dealing with it. (Sorry, this is a sore spot for me right now-- been getting an inordinate amount of unsolicited advice from various people in various places who only think they know my situation, and it's one of the things to keep in mind when dealing with chronically ill people: no matter what you suggest, they've probably already tried it.)

I'm just saying that there should be no "should"s in regards to inclusion. Nobody should have to claw their way into a space that was supposed to be open to them to begin with. Asking me to do that is asking me to get over my mental illness; nigh impossible.

Even when the community isn't plainly hostile, verbally abusive and all that, it can still be subtly and unintentionally hostile for us "oversensitive" folks.

 

[Recidiva]

Going back to this... I'm not going to go to someone with no history of abuse to ask for advice on dealing with it. (Sorry, this is a sore spot for me right now-- been getting an inordinate amount of unsolicited advice from various people in various places who only think they know my situation, and it's one of the things to keep in mind when dealing with chronically ill people: no matter what you suggest, they've probably already tried it.)

I'm just saying that there should be no "should"s in regards to inclusion. Nobody should have to claw their way into a space that was supposed to be open to them to begin with. Asking me to do that is asking me to get over my mental illness; nigh impossible.

Even when the community isn't plainly hostile, verbally abusive and all that, it can still be subtly and unintentionally hostile for us "oversensitive" folks.

No, and you shouldn't ask me. This is why we need different voices. I'm good at other things, and I know where I'm not an expert and this is one of them. I know enough to know that I don't know.

I think it takes courage to mention it as you did and I hope that results in healing.

I'm not speaking in any way that I know about people with abuse pasts in hostile cultures, nor should you think in any way that I knew you had this past and I'm asking you to do it my way.

People here don't know my struggles with migraines or my son's struggles with autism, and although I mention them as part of my history, I don't expect anybody to have any answers.

I could and do wish that the world were a better place for you to live in, and you have all my hopes that you can bring that about in your space.

I didn't make the world, I call it as I see it. If you can see the world in a different way and make that difference, then I encourage you to do so with all your heart.

 

[Netzach]

Another reason I'm not a feminist.

You're as likely to be told you're not being the "right" kind of woman from women as you are from men.

Right, because you're the wrong kind of woman if you're done shrugging off, being positive, ignoring, twisting, re-inventing the wheel, and you think maybe, you know, half the fucking population should not have to do this to be in a subculture.

Why does someone need to justify not wanting to do that anymore with a history of abuse? Why isn't "because I don't fucking feel like it today, thank you" enough? I'm not expecting geekville to be utopia, I am expecting it to be simply not much MORE insane than it is on the outside, actually. Like shock - this doesn't happen to me at the Museum after hours get togethers. Why does this happen to me at SM events when "geek" is the overriding majority, and why doesn't it happen to me at SM events when it's a prodomme scene, which you would think would be a million times WORSE, right? Instead you have a lot of guys trying NOT to be objectifying slobs when that's the whole point of the outing. It's weird, weird, weird.

 

[KoPilot]

No, and you shouldn't ask me. This is why we need different voices. I'm good at other things, and I know where I'm not an expert and this is one of them. I know enough to know that I don't know.

I think it takes courage to mention it as you did and I hope that results in healing.

I'm not speaking in any way that I know about people with abuse pasts in hostile cultures, nor should you think in any way that I knew you had this past and I'm asking you to do it my way.

People here don't know my struggles with migraines or my son's struggles with autism, and although I mention them as part of my history, I don't expect anybody to have any answers.

I could and do wish that the world were a better place for you to live in, and you have all my hopes that you can bring that about in your space.

I didn't make the world, I call it as I see it. If you can see the world in a different way and make that difference, then I encourage you to do so with all your heart.

Trust me, I wish I had the gumption for loud activism, marching in parades, escorting women to abortion clinics, throwing myself between police and whatever. I do what I can right now, and if I can accomplish something by sending out an email chain to everyone in my company going "hey, maybe we should make a genderless character option", then I can do that. Maybe someday I'll be in better shape and I will be able to go to a convention by myself or march in a pride parade or something.

 

[Recidiva]

Right, because you're the wrong kind of woman if you're done shrugging off, being positive, ignoring, twisting, re-inventing the wheel, and you think maybe, you know, half the fucking population should not have to do this to be in a subculture.

No, not at all.

I mean if I say "Hey, I know lots of positive men and negative women" I get a frowny face as if I'm somehow empowering the "opposition."

If I saw the need to do it and I did it and it worked, why am I given demerits for saying so? It's as if there's an actual way to function and it involves with sometimes cooperating with guys and sometimes dismissing women as being nonproductive, I'm again...empowering the opposition.

Feminism can reward victimhood and give hostility to pragmatic answers.

That's my experience and that's why I'm not one.

Twisting it as if I'm sitting on some throne with a whip is just bullshit, holding down other women and laughing because I cooperated with the enemy and got a pass for it. A shill for Big Cock.

I am a geek in geek culture, I did fine, I kick ass, get over it. You don't need to poke me and prod me to prove I'm a victim somehow and when that fails, disapprove of me when I don't tow the party line and lay out some man as the cause of all my problems.

 

[Recidiva]

Trust me, I wish I had the gumption for loud activism, marching in parades, escorting women to abortion clinics, throwing myself between police and whatever. I do what I can right now, and if I can accomplish something by sending out an email chain to everyone in my company going "hey, maybe we should make a genderless character option", then I can do that. Maybe someday I'll be in better shape and I will be able to go to a convention by myself or march in a pride parade or something.

I think you should heal. I think speaking out and wanting to do better, incrementally, starting with your own brain not pouring toxic memories out to you, takes a huge amount of courage and will and effort.

I don't think you need to fight for anyone other than yourself, but I hope you get there because you would make an eloquent advocate. You have plenty of gumption, I think it's just occupied in an already valiant struggle. You don't need to do more, at least in my opinion. You have a huge load to bear and I know each step you take is much more painful than mine in this realm.

 

[Netzach]

why am I given demerits for saying so? It's as if there's an actual way to function and it involves with sometimes cooperating with guys and sometimes dismissing women as being nonproductive, I'm again...empowering the opposition.

Feminism can reward victimhood and give hostility to pragmatic answers.

Because "look it worked, I kick ass" is a world away from some requisite humility - like "yeah I navigated this thing in a way that works for me"

Believe, me, I've done this. I'm a sex worker. I'm definitely not going to say that sex work is inherently OK and dandy - it's what you make it.

You keep saying you realize you may be an outlier and you're not telling other people what to do, ok, but you also keep acting like you found the secret sauce recipe and it's too bad other people are too bruised or too negative or too flawed to do that. Maybe it's not, you know...them

 

[Keroin]

I honor what you're doing and I have no disagreement with the way you're doing it.

Ditto.

In my experience, and again, this is mine, the Universe is a hostile place, the Earth is a hostile place and social interactions have every probability of reflecting that nature. I can do what I can to temper that and help fix what I can, but entropy is the reality and I can't ever get to the point where I think that my opinion will alter that except in a limited, local way where I have influence and power.

And that's fine. For the most part I agree with you. The world is a hostile place. However, I've seen people who've made it less so in places and I guess that's what I strive for, no matter how naive that may seem.

I do not have the starting assumptions that you have about social interaction, so my actions and philosophy are different. Cultures evolve in a Darwinian sense and every sub culture becomes competitive and conflict-ridden.

Mmm, not sure I agree there. I think sub cultures can become argumentative but they don't necessarily have to become competitive or conflict-ridden. My .02.

Fish geek?

Forever! I will be happy to grant you honourary status if you like.

I admire your idealism and I don't know where you got the idea that I'm somehow opposing you or opposing women with your approach. I just have a different one and I expressed it.

I see you as having a different point of view and philosophy, which is your right. I don't think you're opposing me, or women. I do think our thoughts are not completely aligned but, hey, we're individuals.

This is the statement that I find most jarring:

I don't think geek women should expect to be welcomed. I think they should fucking carve out their space with razor sharp wits and blades and if you don't want to do that, then okay. But don't bitch at me about it for being effective at making the assholes avoid me as if I were Ebola, and that I have fun doing it.

Giving the assholes shit is part of the FUN of it. If you don't like killing things and taking their stuff, don't do it. If you don't like stomping over people who give you shit, don't do it.

I would never bitch at you for being effective at what you do. In fact, I applaud you. It's the part in bold I don't agree with. See, women aren't asking for any special privilege, (and I'm not talking only about gaming here), they just want to not be attacked, harassed, or threatened because of their gender.

But I also think everyone should be welcomed into geek culture, including games. Why? Why not? What are the entry requirements? Who gets to decide who's a geek and who's not? Also, who knows what awesomeness may be driven away when a noob isn't welcomed?

I love the sentiment in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4Rjy5yW1gQ&feature=youtu.be

Again, I understand where you're coming from. When I was in the thick of the stunt world, I looked down my nose at wannabes, I felt as if they should fight and earn their way in. I was pretty ruthless about it. In some ways it was a good thing that we behaved that way (you're doing a job that requires a massive amount of guts and people's lives depend on it, if you can't take a little razzing you're in the wrong business), but in some ways it was just petty and mean and something that tugs at my conscience now and then.

Maybe because of that experience, I try to be a human Welcome Wagon for all the other aspects of my life now.

The title of this thread is..."Being A Woman In Geek Culture" and I was interested in the topic.

It's a good topic.

I do not think that the expectation that sub-cultures that are entirely voluntary should be all-encompassingly welcoming to everyone with no exceptions is a reasonable expectation.

I would ask what the exceptions are. If it's gender, then I disagree. If it's assholishness, I agree. Even so, benefit of the doubt. I'll welcome anyone until they give me a reason not to.

In here I am discussing MY experience in GEEK culture, and it's being misread somehow as if I'm saying ALL people should behave like me in ALL cultures, and it's unfair.

I'm sorry if you feel you are being misread. The part in bold is not my interpretation at all, BTW. I see it as: you're expressing your views, I'm expressing mine. We don't agree on everything. It's cool.

You remain one of my favourite Litizens, even if we only communicate sporadically, and I was thrilled to see you join this thread!

 

[Recidiva]

Why does someone need to justify not wanting to do that anymore with a history of abuse? Why isn't "because I don't fucking feel like it today, thank you" enough? I'm not expecting geekville to be utopia, I am expecting it to be simply not much MORE insane than it is on the outside, actually. Like shock - this doesn't happen to me at the Museum after hours get togethers. Why does this happen to me at SM events when "geek" is the overriding majority, and why doesn't it happen to me at SM events when it's a prodomme scene, which you would think would be a million times WORSE, right? Instead you have a lot of guys trying NOT to be objectifying slobs when that's the whole point of the outing. It's weird, weird, weird.

Where have I been unsympathetic to abuse and in fact advocated verbal and physical and legal recourse?

Because we can't wake up and decide that we want the world to be a certain way or we won't get out of bed. We can't afford to be exhausted enough to make it to be someone else's problem if we can fight one more step. If you're exhausted, DON'T GO. Heal. But don't blame others for managing.

Well...Geekville is where people kill others to grab their stuff, focus on fantasy, rape, kill and steal for fun...I really don't know where you made your calculation that it wouldn't be populated by those who would be at least theoretically not opposed to those things.

Yes, it's weird, it sucks, I sympathize, it would be awesome if it were different. I'll drink tea and give sympathy, but I can't change it for anybody other than for myself, and if what I do works and nobody gives a damn or wants to do it that way, then all I gots is tea and sympathy.

 

[Recidiva]

Because "look it worked, I kick ass" is a world away from some requisite humility - like "yeah I navigated this thing in a way that works for me"

Believe, me, I've done this. I'm a sex worker. I'm definitely not going to say that sex work is inherently OK and dandy - it's what you make it.

You keep saying you realize you may be an outlier and you're not telling other people what to do, ok, but you also keep acting like you found the secret sauce recipe and it's too bad other people are too bruised or too negative or too flawed to do that.

Could you please show me where I said that others should be like me, because I'll go edit it. For myself I have reclarified this over and over and I think people are just intentionally misreading me.

I think you kick ass and if you're tired and irritated and angry about it...you have a pulse.

I do think you're irritated that I have the gall to be...so...fucking...Reci. I get that. You have a pulse.

 

[Netzach]

Well...Geekville is where people kill others to grab their stuff, focus on fantasy, rape, kill and steal for fun...I really don't know where you made your calculation that it wouldn't be populated by those who would be at least theoretically not opposed to those things.

That's fine, except y'all have a total stranglehold on BDSM in public.

Kind of becomes my problem when I like tying people up.

Now I have to deal if I want to go to a con and learn how. That's cool, I am a woman who knows 4390493 ways to say fuck off, but I'm not everyone.

Now my life become a miasma of socially inept bullshit, and so does any woman who is exploring her sex life quietly and in search of information without exclusionary unrelenting sexual attention and innuendo.

I guess I can say "whatever not my problem" but I kind of think that this system of sexuality education and knowledge share could use improving.

Again, my point is - that in superficial ways that may not matter much or may, it is WORSE in geek culture than outside.

 

[Recidiva]

Ditto.

And that's fine. For the most part I agree with you. The world is a hostile place. However, I've seen people who've made it less so in places and I guess that's what I strive for, no matter how naive that may seem.

Mmm, not sure I agree there. I think sub cultures can become argumentative but they don't necessarily have to become competitive or conflict-ridden. My .02.

Forever! I will be happy to grant you honourary status if you like.

I see you as having a different point of view and philosophy, which is your right. I don't think you're opposing me, or women. I do think our thoughts are not completely aligned but, hey, we're individuals.

This is the statement that I find most jarring:

I would never bitch at you for being effective at what you do. In fact, I applaud you. It's the part in bold I don't agree with. See, women aren't asking for any special privilege, (and I'm not talking only about gaming here), they just want to not be attacked, harassed, or threatened because of their gender.

But I also think everyone should be welcomed into geek culture, including games. Why? Why not? What are the entry requirements? Who gets to decide who's a geek and who's not? Also, who knows what awesomeness may be driven away when a noob isn't welcomed?

I love the sentiment in this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4Rjy5yW1gQ&feature=youtu.be

Again, I understand where you're coming from. When I was in the thick of the stunt world, I looked down my nose at wannabes, I felt as if they should fight and earn their way in. I was pretty ruthless about it. In some ways it was a good thing that we behaved that way (you're doing a job that requires a massive amount of guts and people's lives depend on it, if you can't take a little razzing you're in the wrong business), but in some ways it was just petty and mean and something that tugs at my conscience now and then.

Maybe because of that experience, I try to be a human Welcome Wagon for all the other aspects of my life now.

I would ask what the exceptions are. If it's gender, then I disagree. If it's assholishness, I agree. Even so, benefit of the doubt. I'll welcome anyone until they give me a reason not to.

I'm sorry if you feel you are being misread. The part in bold is not my interpretation at all, BTW. I see it as: you're expressing your views, I'm expressing mine. We don't agree on everything. It's cool.

You remain one of my favourite Litizens, even if we only communicate sporadically, and I was thrilled to see you join this thread!

Honorary Fish Geek! *dance*

Awesome video.

Sharp wits and blades are a minimal requirement in many of the games I play. For some context, many games are player versus player, meaning you spend your time killing each other and not just the monsters. A LOT of your time. You develop strategies to sneak, frontal assault, demoralize, shred...

So that's where I'm coming from. I'm not saying if you go to a table at a convention you are an arrogant bitch to everyone. I mean that if, while you are gaming and doing "unfeminine" things such as killing other people and trash talking and roleplaying, do it with style and not an apology.

If you're at that booth and someone insults you, insult them better. Then walk away and forget it.

In reality I'm a fairly polite person and although the characters I come up with run the spectrum of drama, I try to do them well. That means my characters are occasionally evil, occasionally vicious, occasionally insane. I like the people who can do this, exhibit proficiency with weapons and combat and strategy. That's the context.

I tend to not insult people or accept an insult that's gender based. So I can say you're incompetent in a creative way, but not denigrate someone by saying "Put on a dress, princess."

Geek culture has elitism and experience levels and I'm sure so did being a stunt woman. If someone, male or female, wants to have geek cred and starts out with "I like games too, anybody wanna play tic tac toe?" they'll probably get rolleyeyes. Same as someone who wants to be a stunt person might say "Hey, do you think I might break a nail?" might get rolleyeyes. Some people express their "rolleyeyes" with a put down. In the Geek world, your wit is huge. You gotta have it out, you gotta have it ready, you gotta be willing to duel and win or at least be a good sport. That's my experience.

There's "out of bounds" and I tend to try to help people and guide them along, for instance in a game if someone's floundering I will maybe help them join my guild, show them the ropes, answer questions, get them some money or gear. I have the "newbie" channel open and I'll answer the same question every day to help people get started.

But in general I'm not the average person you're going to meet. I do what I can, but I'm aware I'm just a part of a population that also involves people that only want to be there to abuse others, people that want to win at duels and people that just want a ragevent for their crappy day.

They go there to blow off steam, to KILL, to take stuff, to get something. They're not there in a nuanced way, and they're not there to make friends.

I don't make the rules.

Thank you for taking the time and effort to restate, I really appreciate it. This is a passionate concern of mine, and part of my problem here is...this is not a conversation about geeks so far. It's a conversation about feminism.

Satin started the thread and she and I have talked about games for years. If it had said "Safe Place for Abuse Victims, Feminists Only" I would have seriously stayed the fuck out.

 

[Recidiva]

That's fine, except y'all have a total stranglehold on BDSM in public.

Kind of becomes my problem when I like tying people up.

Now I have to deal if I want to go to a con and learn how. That's cool, I am a woman who knows 4390493 ways to say fuck off, but I'm not everyone.

Now my life become a miasma of socially inept bullshit, and so does any woman who is exploring her sex life quietly and in search of information without exclusionary unrelenting sexual attention and innuendo.

I guess I can say "whatever not my problem" but I kind of think that this system of sexuality education and knowledge share could use improving.

Again, my point is - that in superficial ways that may not matter much or may, it is WORSE in geek culture than outside.

And there's nothing that I've said to point to where I've said "Nezatch's life experience is bullshit, don't listen to her."

Do what you do the way you do it. I didn't advise you at all, and I think you're fabulous.

 

[Netzach]

And there's nothing that I've said to point to where I've said "Nezatch's life experience is bullshit, don't listen to her."

Do what you do the way you do it. I didn't advise you at all, and I think you're fabulous.

I never said you said that. I'm not talking about this on a personal level - on the personal level is where there's nuance and subtlety and if you get lost in it you can't actually rely on any generalization about any room with five people in it. I think you're fabulous too!

But there are patterns that go past that.

 

[Recidiva]

I never said you said that. I'm not talking about this on a personal level - on the personal level is where there's nuance and subtlety and if you get lost in it you can't actually rely on any generalization about any room with five people in it. I think you're fabulous too!

But there are patterns that go past that.

And that's pretty much a reflection of different cultures. Geek culture, BDSM culture, Feminist culture...and not everybody is there to profit and forward the group in a socially responsible way that reflects well on the community. They're there to get theirs and that's the nature of the thing.

I'm okay with people being really pissed on the subject and they have every right to be that way.

I've been telling stories about my experience...but in response I get articles and videos and everybody else's media image telling me that my experience is invalid. I'm a person, not a news story. I'm relaying what I have seen and done, because it has mattered to me in my life.

Okay, you know, I can dig that, and maybe it's entirely true that I just don't stack up in any significant statistic. But I'd like to hear where Nezatch started to play Oblivion and got into it and had fun or didn't, and where Keroin went to some CosPlay event dressed as a Mermaid and what happened, and I'd like to hear what you guys DID in geek culture, and that's what was interesting to me when I decided to join this thread.

Not the rank and file and listing of negative articles and being hammered with that reality next to the fact that...gee...I like to be a dark elf sometimes.

But I'm still here and I can still say it, and this is my passion as well.

 

[BiBunny]

No, not at all.

I mean if I say "Hey, I know lots of positive men and negative women" I get a frowny face as if I'm somehow empowering the "opposition."

If I saw the need to do it and I did it and it worked, why am I given demerits for saying so? It's as if there's an actual way to function and it involves with sometimes cooperating with guys and sometimes dismissing women as being nonproductive, I'm again...empowering the opposition.

Feminism can reward victimhood and give hostility to pragmatic answers.

That's my experience and that's why I'm not one.

Twisting it as if I'm sitting on some throne with a whip is just bullshit, holding down other women and laughing because I cooperated with the enemy and got a pass for it. A shill for Big Cock.

I am a geek in geek culture, I did fine, I kick ass, get over it. You don't need to poke me and prod me to prove I'm a victim somehow and when that fails, disapprove of me when I don't tow the party line and lay out some man as the cause of all my problems.

This is pretty much how I feel, too, and why I try not to even bother arguing about it anymore.

 

[Recidiva]

This is pretty much how I feel, too, and why I try not to even bother arguing about it anymore.

I try to avoid certain brands of feminism...but it's a fact lots of feminists are smart and fun to talk to or I wouldn't fall for it over and over.

I try not to argue. But really that can mostly only be accomplished by being offline.

Sometimes I wonder if logging on to Lit is an aggressive act on my part.

 

[Keroin]

Thank you for taking the time and effort to restate, I really appreciate it.

You're welcome.

This is a passionate concern of mine, and part of my problem here is...this is not a conversation about geeks so far. It's a conversation about feminism.

Satin started the thread and she and I have talked about games for years. If it had said "Safe Place for Abuse Victims, Feminists Only" I would have seriously stayed the fuck out.

Yeah, but if you go back and read the OP, it's pretty clear that this is meant to be a discussion about sexism in the geek world and how we experience it, feel about it, think about it, etc.

So, I don't think anyone's been misled and I've just been staying on topic, IMO.

So just in case anyone has missed the recent goings-on on the interbone about women in geek culture, I'm going to link a few articles/pages that will brush y'all up on what's happening lately.

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/07/26/who-gets-to-be-a-geek-anyone-who-wants-to-be/

http://www.examiner.com/article/tim...-facts-women-are-and-have-long-been-geeks-too

http://www.dailyillini.com/opinion/columns/article_90391094-4347-11e2-8805-001a4bcf6878.html

http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2011/11/nerds-and-male-privilege/

As a woman who was introduced to geek culture while still wearing diapers, I feel frustrated that my "geek cred" has been questioned simply due to my gender. I feel frustrated that I cannot identify with many female characters due to their one-dimensional and heavily sexualized portrayals. I feel frustrated that when I speak about this, my concerns are outright dismissed as "hysterical", "irrational", or being told that the way women are portrayed in mainstream geek culture is "just part of the way it is and it's not going to change because mostly men are geeks".

What are your thoughts about this?

Have you experienced sexism in geek culture due to your gender?

How do YOU deal with it?

 

[Recidiva]

You're welcome.

Yeah, but if you go back and read the OP, it's pretty clear that this is meant to be a discussion about sexism in the geek world and how we experience it, feel about it, think about it, etc.

So, I don't think anyone's been misled and I've just been staying on topic, IMO.

What are your thoughts about this?

Have you experienced sexism in geek culture due to your gender?

How do YOU deal with it?

I answered these questions.

 

[Keroin]

What are your thoughts about this?

Have you experienced sexism in geek culture due to your gender?

How do YOU deal with it?

I answered these questions.

Great! And everyone else is continuing the conversation. And it involves sexism, which involves feminism. So...

Not sure of the problem?