Being a woman in geek culture

[SilverbackUK]

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=49339205&postcount=794
http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=49318997&postcount=788
http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=49339497&postcount=795
http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=49342001&postcount=797


These are the posts where you clearly and very obviously have Denied that historical and institutionalized sexism against women wasn't actually sexism, but that we have an "even playing field", "everyone has to prove themselves" and that "some guys are just dicks to everyone".

WTF?!?!?!

I give up. You actually are delusional.

Cheers

 

[SilverbackUK]

Hi, my name is SilverbackUK, and I like to invite myself into people's homes, give them unwanted decorating advice, eat their food, piss in their sink, and then find myself getting surprised and defensive when they tell me I'm being fucking rude.

Misandry!!

Or possibly ailurophobia...

Cheers

 

[satindesire]

This post by writer Robert J Bennett is timely.

On women, and empathy, and con games

That was really powerful. One thing in the article stuck with me in particular:

What prompts this piece, this weirdo and probably significantly pathetic confessional, is a post from John Hodgman’s tumblr, where he quotes Junot Diaz in a speech about how hard it is to teach boys to write girls.

I’ve seen some skeptical reactions to it – Surely this is an exaggeration! – but I look back on 20 year old RJB and I can confirm that, nope, this is no exaggeration. Boys today can blossom and progress and learn to put together prose in a pretty satisfactory manner without ever understanding what the everliving fuck is going on in the minds of half the population.

The lesson some take away from Junot Diaz’s speech is, “Dudes suck,” and this inspires a lot of defensive caterwauling, a mass venting of bruised egos. Many assume Junot Diaz is a woman (he isn’t) or assume he’s some shitty, unknown writer (he won the Pulitzer Prize), or they assume that he is actively blaming them, telling them they are Bad, that they are Bad People and they should feel bad.

He isn’t. He’s saying that you live in a place and a time where, if you’re a guy, your ignorance can run wild and no one will call you on it.

And if you’re a guy, hearing that should anger you.

Because he’s saying that you have had walls built around you, that you have bricked yourself off from the world and been told that it’s okay, that you have been denied knowledge of what so many other people think and feel and do. You have a huge advantage in this world, being a guy, but because of this advantage, there is so much you are blind to, so much you’re actively encouraged not to know or understand. You’re allowed to stagnate and decay and just rot.

And even moreso, you’ve been trained to actually fight being allowed to pull down the very walls you build around yourself! You’ve been taught not just to drink your poison, but to love it! You’ve been programmed, in some ways, not only to harm yourself, but to hate anyone who tries to stop you!

What a fucking con game, right? We’ve been cheated and we didn’t even know it. Sure, we get the privilege, but the cost is one fucking hell of a lot of ignorance, ignorance to the extent that you’re hardly even aware that you’re privileged.

What a fucking con game. And so often we’re the ones conning ourselves, or allowing ourselves to be conned.

I think this almost perfectly describes to a T the issues that I see a lot of men have when confronted with the realities of misogyny/sexism of women and how we are indeed considered "Other" instead of Human. Even decent men can feel threatened, blamed even, when a woman speaks about Feminism, and they'll react one of two ways..They'll try and listen and learn or they'll go on the attack, deny there's a problem because the reality is just too difficult to face. There's a lot of that in this thread, too.

WTF?!?!?!

I give up. You actually are delusional.

Cheers

Every non-troll that has participated in this thread has told you the same thing.

So the whole lot of us are totally delusional, you're the ONLY sane one around here, amirite? Fucking please. Go home, little boy, you are too proud and angry to learn anything here. Also, you don't have to keep signing your posts. This isn't an essay paper, it's a fucking forum, and at this point, your "Cheers" are disingenuous.

 

[KoPilot]

Or possibly ailurophobia...

Cheers

You have nothing to say on third world women having it worse than us?

Wow, I never would have guessed you were using that as a silencing tactic and don't actually know the first thing about non-western feminism beyond being able to spell the word "burqa".

You are literally on par with the creationist going up to a bunch of geophysicists and biologists just to say "You're all wrong but I'm not going to tell you why". And then when they actually try and engage you in a debate that you have nowhere near the intellectual aptitude to participate in, you just start saying random words that you remember from your SAT prep.

We're laughing at you right now.

Cheers!

 

[KoPilot]

So the whole lot of us are totally delusional, you're the ONLY sane one around here, amirite?

"Persons diagnosed with a Narcissistic Personality Disorder are characterized by unwarranted feelings of self-importance. They have a sense of entitlement and demonstrate grandiosity in their beliefs and behavior. They have a strong need for admiration, but lack feelings of empathy. These qualities are usually defenses against a deep feeling of inferiority and of being unloved."

 

[satindesire]

It's caricatures all the way down for these people.

I see what you did there.

God forbid you complicate things by telling them that Rwanda has the highest number of women in parliament than any other country on Earth. Or that Japanese rape laws are some of the more abhorrent of the industrialized nations. Or that a huge number of trafficked sex slaves are from Eastern Europe and all look very white.

"Stop whining white women, because brown women" is the most deluded perspective you could possibly have... unless you're a brown woman and actually know what the fuck you're talking about.

I think it's telling that so many people are CONVINCED that women HAVE IT MADE here in the US when we actually don't.

You have nothing to say on third world women having it worse than us?

Wow, I never would have guessed you were using that as a silencing tactic and don't actually know the first thing about non-western feminism beyond being able to spell the word "burqa".

You are literally on par with the creationist going up to a bunch of geophysicists and biologists just to say "You're all wrong but I'm not going to tell you why". And then when they actually try and engage you in a debate that you have nowhere near the intellectual aptitude to participate in, you just start saying random words that you remember from your SAT prep.

We're laughing at you right now.

Cheers!

There is a mountain of evidence that bigotry exists, anyone who denies it is one of three things: Willfully in denial due to benefiting from it, ignorant, or stupid.

And there IS a difference between ignorant and stupid.

"Persons diagnosed with a Narcissistic Personality Disorder are characterized by unwarranted feelings of self-importance. They have a sense of entitlement and demonstrate grandiosity in their beliefs and behavior. They have a strong need for admiration, but lack feelings of empathy. These qualities are usually defenses against a deep feeling of inferiority and of being unloved."

Maybe.

Maybe it's more of a thing where Silverback went "Sexism doesn't exist!" And then we proved it DID and he went "Oh shit..." *Panics!* "I never said sexism doesn't exist! You're delusional!"

 

[KoPilot]

Maybe it's more of a thing where Silverback went "Sexism doesn't exist!" And then we proved it DID and he went "Oh shit..." *Panics!* "I never said sexism doesn't exist! You're delusional!"

Nah, I pegged him for a narcissist as soon as he kept coming back to tell us how wrong we were because his opinion is ~*~so important~*~ and also that he couldn't own any of his shit.

Or maybe he's actually a masochist that likes getting his ass beat.

Goddammit, I feel like we've been here before.

SilverbuttUK, if you want to keep losing in these arguments, it's gonna be $120/hr from now on. PM me for my paypal.

 

[Recidiva]

Re: Junot Diaz.

I listened to "This Is How You Lose Her" and couldn't stand him.

About where he described the religious women in his mother's apartment (or girlfriend's, really I couldn't wait until it was over) as "The Four Horsefaces of The Apocalypse" I was incredibly grossed out by his inability to describe a woman in any terms other than their willingness to buy into his shit, or their sexual attractiveness or availability.

It is not subtext. It is not subtle. It is TEXT.

I ended up checking in with several people, wondering why they thought Junot Diaz was a genius or what was his place in modern literature.

"He speaks reality, he speaks about how sexuality has run his life and destroyed his life."

...like that doesn't describe how many people in how many cultures...ever?

It really isn't that I don't get it. It's that I do get it. He is not a new, fresh voice. He is the same damned voice.

If he's honest about it, that's great, but I don't see it as coming out of some male closet. It's just offensive.

It perfectly suits my view of him that he'd then turn all his failures as an empathetic being on men too and tell them they're all like him.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I just think it's a shame that such an august and admirable beast should have its name misused so badly by some human.

 

[rida]

What I've learned from this thread:

I was part of the problem and did not know it

I thought I could not possibly be part of the problem because I belong to the oppressed minority (female, mix races) and because my intentions were good

Instead I realized I still bought into the double standards of Western patriarchy's values and way of seeing the world.

For this, I'd like to thank all the relentless unstoppable women on these forums that have helped me open my eyes and see the ugly truth.
I might not agree with each and every point or tactics or even argument. But the truth stays that I too was, as often many men and women are, justifying the privilege, not by altogether denying it, but by minimizing it's effects.

My lesson has been (redux version in the contest of sexism, but easily extended to any form of discrimination): just because I can suck it up and not let it get to me, it is still wrong and women that cannot or do not want to suck it up, should not have to. The fault is never in the sensitivity of the victim, but in the action of the perpetrator, whether aware (oppressor) or not (ignorant)

So: thank you

 

[Recidiva]

What I've learned from this thread:

I was part of the problem and did not know it

I thought I could not possibly be part of the problem because I belong to the oppressed minority (female, mix races) and because my intentions were good

Instead I realized I still bought into the double standards of Western patriarchy's values and way of seeing the world.

For this, I'd like to thank all the relentless unstoppable women on these forums that have helped me open my eyes and see the ugly truth.
I might not agree with each and every point or tactics or even argument. But the truth stays that I too was, as often many men and women are, justifying the privilege, not by altogether denying it, but by minimizing it's effects.

My lesson has been (redux version in the contest of sexism, but easily extended to any form of discrimination): just because I can suck it up and not let it get to me, it is still wrong and women that cannot or do not want to suck it up, should not have to. The fault is never in the sensitivity of the victim, but in the action of the perpetrator, whether aware (oppressor) or not (ignorant)

So: thank you

Yaaaaay! Beautifully put, thank you.

 

[satindesire]

What I've learned from this thread:

I was part of the problem and did not know it

I thought I could not possibly be part of the problem because I belong to the oppressed minority (female, mix races) and because my intentions were good

Instead I realized I still bought into the double standards of Western patriarchy's values and way of seeing the world.

For this, I'd like to thank all the relentless unstoppable women on these forums that have helped me open my eyes and see the ugly truth.
I might not agree with each and every point or tactics or even argument. But the truth stays that I too was, as often many men and women are, justifying the privilege, not by altogether denying it, but by minimizing it's effects.

My lesson has been (redux version in the contest of sexism, but easily extended to any form of discrimination): just because I can suck it up and not let it get to me, it is still wrong and women that cannot or do not want to suck it up, should not have to. The fault is never in the sensitivity of the victim, but in the action of the perpetrator, whether aware (oppressor) or not (ignorant)

So: thank you

It takes a big person...emotionally mature and aware...to admit when they've done something they feel bad for. I'm not saying this in a condescending way, I'm being 100% honest-I'm really proud of you Rida.

 

[satindesire]

When someone says that bigotry doesn't exist, I want them to watch this video.

http://www.upworthy.com/what-does-y...-to-do-with-your-zip-code-everything-2?c=ufb1

 

[KoPilot]

What I've learned from this thread:

I was part of the problem and did not know it

I thought I could not possibly be part of the problem because I belong to the oppressed minority (female, mix races) and because my intentions were good

Instead I realized I still bought into the double standards of Western patriarchy's values and way of seeing the world.

For this, I'd like to thank all the relentless unstoppable women on these forums that have helped me open my eyes and see the ugly truth.
I might not agree with each and every point or tactics or even argument. But the truth stays that I too was, as often many men and women are, justifying the privilege, not by altogether denying it, but by minimizing it's effects.

My lesson has been (redux version in the contest of sexism, but easily extended to any form of discrimination): just because I can suck it up and not let it get to me, it is still wrong and women that cannot or do not want to suck it up, should not have to. The fault is never in the sensitivity of the victim, but in the action of the perpetrator, whether aware (oppressor) or not (ignorant)

So: thank you

 

[BiBunny]

When someone says that bigotry doesn't exist, I want them to watch this video.

http://www.upworthy.com/what-does-y...-to-do-with-your-zip-code-everything-2?c=ufb1

It's not really different in rural areas than it is in urban ones, either.

 

[satindesire]

It's not really different in rural areas than it is in urban ones, either.

I think it's probably worse in predominantly black neighborhoods. The comment about Whole Foods treating kids like walking cacti really hit home.

In poor black neighborhoods like the one I live in now, you'll see 6-10 fast food restaurants and liquor stores per grocery store.

 

[BiBunny]

I think it's probably worse in predominantly black neighborhoods. The comment about Whole Foods treating kids like walking cacti really hit home.

In poor black neighborhoods like the one I live in now, you'll see 6-10 fast food restaurants and liquor stores per grocery store.

I live in what passes for a decent-sized city in this part of the world. My neighborhood is a working class/lower-middle class area that lies just past the so-called ghetto. In order to go anywhere, I pass directly through what's considered the "worst" part of town. It's a very poor area, and this is a very mean town to be no bigger than it is.

I grew up in a spot in the road that we considered "suburbs," but now that I've been places and seen things, I know it's obviously a rural area. What we called "rural" back then is more like the freaking woods. We didn't really have black or white neighborhoods; there were a handful of "rich" people who lived apart from everyone else, and the rest of us were just scattered among each other, regardless of race.

But you know what? Poverty looks the same, black or white, urban or rural. It's brutal. It ages people far more quickly than affluence does and puts people in the ground far before their time. Often, physical and mental health problems can put or keep people in poverty, and the poverty makes physical and mental health problems worse. It's a vicious cycle that throwing a little welfare money at does not help. Even the working class, who live paycheck to paycheck, have the same problems; although most people classifying them wouldn't call them "poor," they are.

I've seen it--and lived it--in both environments. It's no different, except perhaps that urban poverty is simply more visible.

 

[satindesire]

As seen on Tumblr:

“‘Men get raped and molested,’ should be a whole sentence. If you have to tack on the word ‘too,’ then you’re using the experience of male victims to silence females instead of giving them their own space.”

 

[Recidiva]

Hah. Sarcasm. Fighting fire with fire type.

 

[satindesire]

Hah. Sarcasm. Fighting fire with fire type.

I saw that on facebook yesterday and ALMOST posted it, I'm glad you got to it first!


Also seen on facebook: Sexualized avatars affect the real world, Stanford researchers find.

"Bailenson and co-author Jesse Fox published a research paper in the journal Computers in Human Behavior that examined how becoming a sexualized avatar affected women's perceptions of themselves. Participants donned helmets that blocked out the real world, immersing them in a virtual world of 3-D sight and sound. Motion sensors on their wrists and ankles allowed for the lab's many infrared cameras to record their motions as they moved identically in both worlds.

Once in the new world, each participant looked in a virtual mirror and saw herself or another woman, dressed provocatively or conservatively. The avatar's movements in the mirror perfectly copied the participant's actual physical movements, allowing her to truly feel as if she occupied that body.

The researchers then introduced a male accomplice into the virtual world to talk to the participant. What seemed like a normal, get-to-know-you conversation was actually an assessment of how much the women viewed themselves as objects. Women "wearing" the sexualized avatars bearing their likenesses talked about their bodies, hair and dress more than women in the other avatars, suggesting that they were thinking of themselves more as objects than as people.

After their time in the virtual world, the participants filled out a questionnaire rating how much they agreed with various statements. Bailenson and Fox folded rape myths such as "in the majority of rapes, the victim is promiscuous or has a bad reputation" into the questionnaire. Participants rated how much they agreed or disagreed with the statements.

The participants who had worn the sexualized avatars tended to agree with rape myths more than the women who had worn the non-sexualized avatars. Women in sexualized avatars whose faces resembled their own agreed with the myths more than anyone else in the study.

The Entertainment Software Association estimates that across mobile, PC and console platforms, 45 percent of American gamers are female. But few game titles feature female protagonists. In many popular games in this fast-growing industry, female characters are in the minority; more often than not, they are sexualized.

Many female gamers assert that gaming culture is not welcoming to women. The website notinthekitchenanymore.com collects user-submitted accounts of sexual harassment women experience in online platforms such as Xbox Live. When women critique sexism in games and gamer culture, they are often dismissed or even bullied. Pop-culture critic Anita Sarkeesian faced a barrage of cyber-bullying – including threats of rape and death – for announcing a project examining common tropes of female characters in video games."

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2013/october/virtual-female-avatars-100913.html

 

[Recidiva]

I saw that on facebook yesterday and ALMOST posted it, I'm glad you got to it first!


Also seen on facebook: Sexualized avatars affect the real world, Stanford researchers find.

"Bailenson and co-author Jesse Fox published a research paper in the journal Computers in Human Behavior that examined how becoming a sexualized avatar affected women's perceptions of themselves. Participants donned helmets that blocked out the real world, immersing them in a virtual world of 3-D sight and sound. Motion sensors on their wrists and ankles allowed for the lab's many infrared cameras to record their motions as they moved identically in both worlds.

Once in the new world, each participant looked in a virtual mirror and saw herself or another woman, dressed provocatively or conservatively. The avatar's movements in the mirror perfectly copied the participant's actual physical movements, allowing her to truly feel as if she occupied that body.

The researchers then introduced a male accomplice into the virtual world to talk to the participant. What seemed like a normal, get-to-know-you conversation was actually an assessment of how much the women viewed themselves as objects. Women "wearing" the sexualized avatars bearing their likenesses talked about their bodies, hair and dress more than women in the other avatars, suggesting that they were thinking of themselves more as objects than as people.

After their time in the virtual world, the participants filled out a questionnaire rating how much they agreed with various statements. Bailenson and Fox folded rape myths such as "in the majority of rapes, the victim is promiscuous or has a bad reputation" into the questionnaire. Participants rated how much they agreed or disagreed with the statements.

The participants who had worn the sexualized avatars tended to agree with rape myths more than the women who had worn the non-sexualized avatars. Women in sexualized avatars whose faces resembled their own agreed with the myths more than anyone else in the study.

The Entertainment Software Association estimates that across mobile, PC and console platforms, 45 percent of American gamers are female. But few game titles feature female protagonists. In many popular games in this fast-growing industry, female characters are in the minority; more often than not, they are sexualized.

Many female gamers assert that gaming culture is not welcoming to women. The website notinthekitchenanymore.com collects user-submitted accounts of sexual harassment women experience in online platforms such as Xbox Live. When women critique sexism in games and gamer culture, they are often dismissed or even bullied. Pop-culture critic Anita Sarkeesian faced a barrage of cyber-bullying – including threats of rape and death – for announcing a project examining common tropes of female characters in video games."

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2013/october/virtual-female-avatars-100913.html

Unfortunately now with the way my internet is hooked up, you will probably see all the good stuff first and I got it from you first

It is a deeply insidious thing to buy a pig in a poke social culture. It's trickled down throughout a lifetime and many people acclimate without knowing it. I'm comfortable with gamers because of my personality, and because I actually have no problem stomping on someone if they're a deserving candidate. I do however do so without making it about anything but their attitude, and it is applicable to all genders, real or imagined. There's no reason to deny that a lot of times, it's a guy.

I encourage others to find their own way, although agreeing with a douche to get along with that douche is not a good way in my opinion. It is a social and emotional and intellectual mine field to navigate.

 

[Recidiva]

Hah! Yup. That.

 

[satindesire]

Unfortunately now with the way my internet is hooked up, you will probably see all the good stuff first and I got it from you first

I post a shit ton of Feminist stuff, geeky stuff and cats on my Facebook page. I hope you don't get bored with me.

It is a deeply insidious thing to buy a pig in a poke social culture. It's trickled down throughout a lifetime and many people acclimate without knowing it. I'm comfortable with gamers because of my personality, and because I actually have no problem stomping on someone if they're a deserving candidate. I do however do so without making it about anything but their attitude, and it is applicable to all genders, real or imagined. There's no reason to deny that a lot of times, it's a guy.

I encourage others to find their own way, although agreeing with a douche to get along with that douche is not a good way in my opinion. It is a social and emotional and intellectual mine field to navigate.

I actually totally agree with you. I don't buy the whole bullshit Feminine Trope of "Go along to get along". That's fucked and I will call out a douchebag in a second regardless of what happens to me because of it. I fully understand it makes me a target of misogynists and haters and I recognize it's a form of social masochism these days because of the Feminist backlash--but I see the backlash as a positive in a lot of ways because there wouldn't BE a backlash if Feminism wasn't gaining serious social momentum.

So many people skate by in life because their actions are condoned through silence if not downright seen as totally acceptable, without ANYONE ever telling them that they're a douchebag. That has to stop, like yesterday.

 

[Recidiva]

I post a shit ton of Feminist stuff, geeky stuff and cats on my Facebook page. I hope you don't get bored with me.

I actually totally agree with you. I don't buy the whole bullshit Feminine Trope of "Go along to get along". That's fucked and I will call out a douchebag in a second regardless of what happens to me because of it. I fully understand it makes me a target of misogynists and haters and I recognize it's a form of social masochism these days because of the Feminist backlash--but I see the backlash as a positive in a lot of ways because there wouldn't BE a backlash if Feminism wasn't gaining serious social momentum.

So many people skate by in life because their actions are condoned through silence if not downright seen as totally acceptable, without ANYONE ever telling them that they're a douchebag. That has to stop, like yesterday.

Bored? Nevah! Just copying you a lot.

I see you as mommy bear protective of ... well ... everyone.

You want to tell us to not engage the trolls, but it's not because you don't want to engage the trolls. YOU want to engage the trolls only and you don't want us getting bite marks on us.

It's noble, if inconsistent in execution. You're protective of everyone else in this thread...just not yourself. It's endearing in its own way, but I'd rather be out there getting a bite mark at your side than listening to you tell me to not engage or watching you do it yourself 'cause you know you can take it.

It's kinda awesome, if occasionally frustrating 'cause I BELIEVE in feeding the trolls.

 

[satindesire]

Bored? Nevah! Just copying you a lot.

I see you as mommy bear protective of ... well ... everyone.

You want to tell us to not engage the trolls, but it's not because you don't want to engage the trolls. YOU want to engage the trolls only and you don't want us getting bite marks on us.

It's noble, if inconsistent in execution. You're protective of everyone else in this thread...just not yourself. It's endearing in its own way, but I'd rather be out there getting a bite mark at your side than listening to you tell me to not engage or watching you do it yourself 'cause you know you can take it.

It's kinda awesome, if occasionally frustrating 'cause I BELIEVE in feeding the trolls.

It depends on who the trolls are. Primadonna, for example? I have on ignore and will usually never look at his posts or engage with him, but I will talk about him because he stalks me and it infuriates him that I can ignore him so easily but he is incapable of doing the same to me. And with as much of an incompetent misogynist dickhead as he is, he DESERVES to be made as angry as possible as often as possible. Think of me as karma incarnate.

I don't want trolls in here because this is a safe space for women and men that hate women do not fucking belong in here telling us that we're wrong and they're right. We get that everywhere everyday constantly. There needs to be a place we can go and be able to discuss and vent and share without being reminded that it's a man's world. Hence, do not engage misogynists. They will go away if we ignore them hard enough.

Side note: I also hope that EVERYONE on Lit eventually starts calling him Primadonna constantly because I think the fact that it's a gendered word and he's a sexist bastard will enrage him until his pants catch on fire.

Almost every other troll in the world, they can fuck off and die and I'll never talk to them, look at them or engage them in any way. Ignoring them completely will eventually make them go away and do something productive. I'll yell at an asshole until I deem them a troll for the same of trolling, then they are dead to me.