Bits of Poetry Theory

[twelveoone]

I think part of the problem comes from the way poetry is presented in schools.

Prose must be clear and concise and is governed by the rules of grammar. Facts and references are more important than personal opinion.

Poetry is presented as the opposite. There are no rules, with complete freedom of expression. This is fine, except poetry as a form of communication gets lost in the mix. In the rush to express what one feels and sees, the idea of showing these things to other people is given too little attention.

If it is a form of communication , which it really shouldn't be, it is done though a translator. The poem functions as a translator. I forget who said this, "If I wanted to communicate with someone, I'd write 'em a letter." Dated, but.
Half of communication on a personal level is phatic nonsense. This "phatic nonsense" encodes a different message from the surface conversation, sometimes in the opposite direction. Did you ever find yourself thinking " I agree with what this guy is saying, but he's a real asshole" or not agreeing but liking the guy.

Letter writing should be clear and concise, not necessarily prose but a successful prose writer will follow certain conventions, and generally meet audience expectations; the really good ones function in the range of poetry. Comac McCarthy's Blood Meridian, and Mary Shelley's Frankenstein even sound like poetry in parts.

The problem with poetry is it's fucking work, not presented as work, little more presented as "isn't this wonderful, doesn't this make you feel this way". Well no, in most cases- I don't give a damn about John Masefield ma'am. Instead it should be presented as " look what this guy is trying to do, this is the trick he is using - did you hear it, did it work?" Yeah, I hear the horses, that sonofabitch Tennyson is pretty good, I want to do that. "Well you might be able to, but only if you work at it."

Now the poet, not only has to do what the prose writer does, but he also has a whole bag'o'tricks that he has to carry that the prose writer doesn't. Remembering also that he has to be also as concise as the letter writer, not necessarily clear, because that is one of the tricks. And he has to function in that range of that phatic nonsense, that is the bear, how do you be concise there?

Back to Tennyson, did a fine job didn't? Let's you know it was a disaster, some jack-ass ordered a charge, but honoured the 600 hundred. Gotta like him.

Now, me too often I'll reach into the poetic bag'o'tricks and pull out the wrong tool, as does everybody, even the greats.

It's fucking work! And the audience is minimal, half of them don't understand, doesn't really function well as communication.

 

[bflagsst]

I assume poetry began by communicating history, important cultural information to the next generation. That and the pleasure of telling a horror/heroic story to kids, pure entertainment. It's really John Donne, Shakey, Romantics who make poetry into describing God/Question of Being/Seinsfrage. Poetry has little place in communicating cultural information these days and that's likely the reason for the rapid drop in popularity since the 70s. Ginsberg would've been the last, the last important attempt at communicating through the veil; plenty of information in that poem and some others.

 

[mikesaysno]

Hardest game in the world that: the old poetry game. I've seen them come and go with their calluses and sunken faces and I don't know what it is that makes them tick or why they even try. But it seems to me the ones who succeed (the least of them) share a glimmer which is fleeting and all too soon snuffed out, but it's there. And the ones that fail - the most of them - are just like lemmings, stood blathering into the endless night, filling a wet sock full of sloppy cobblers and slipping, lastly, into the abyss. I can't say I envy them. I guess it's a case of there but for the grace of god go I.

 

[twelveoone]

Thomas Love Peacock (1785-1866)

The Four Ages of Poetry (1820)

Qui inter hæc nutriuntur non magis sapere possunt, quam bene olere qui in culinâ habitant. PETRONIUS.

¶1 §1 POETRY, like the world, may be said to have four ages, but in a different order: the first age of poetry being the age of iron; the second, of gold; the third, of silver; and the fourth, of brass.

whence begat the age of Aluminium
whence begat the age of Plutonium

whence beshat the age of Imodium

no reflection on oggbashan but just coming from New Poems, it's obvious Peacock needs updating.

 

[ishtat]

I assume poetry began by communicating history, important cultural information to the next generation.

I find this statement rather depressing because it seems to imply that the process was consciously educative .

I believe that poetry began as imprections to the gods, curses of the enemy, praise for heroes and prayers in times of hopelessness. Initially it was inseparable from art, dance, music, religion and day to day life. The dreamtime of Aboriginal Australians is an extant example.

Now I've forgotten what the damn thread is about!

 

[Epmd607]

I find this statement rather depressing because it seems to imply that the process was consciously educative .

I believe that poetry began as imprections to the gods, curses of the enemy, praise for heroes and prayers in times of hopelessness. Initially it was inseparable from art, dance, music, religion and day to day life. The dreamtime of Aboriginal Australians is an extant example.

Now I've forgotten what the damn thread is about!

You're saying the same thing, methinks. Spontaneity given reason. Put culture in a bag and hand it down...but only WASPs actually put culture and history in a bag and hand it down. An explanation for thunder or an invocation against it are ways of protecting and transmitting important cultural data. Protect ourselves from Zeus when clued into his power via thunder by way of certain spells and sacrifices, make sure sons and daughters are clued into this set of beliefs and practices to avoid unnecessary trauma.

 

[Palba_Noruda]

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I agree with ya'll.

 

[twelveoone]

degraded degree deification

daily daily damn damn damn,
dance, Danish daring dark darkness
darkness Darwin data.
Dated, daughters

I like your poem Palba_Noruda
Excellent alliteration, but it seems like I've seen it before.
+ this line reads better w/o the comma
dance Danish daring dark darkness

 

[butters]

Pablo, it hurts my eyes too much even trying to read your post

i wonder if that was your message to us all...

 

[Palba_Noruda]

Making the familiar strange and the strange familiar is an important bit of theory for me.

The poet uses metaphor (the most important trick of all, imo) to attach the familiar to something more fantastical. Thereby suggesting meaning to that which might otherwise seem quite meaningless.

Likewise, the poet is able to use metaphor to attach the unknown to the well-known, thereby bringing sense or comfort.

The poet can pursue this end in a personal way, writing only for herself, or in a communicative way, for an audience. Two different approaches that will end in two different poems.

Paradox might exist in the poet's intention.

Sometimes, a poet might write for the purpose of establishing an identity as a poet. And for no other reason.

I was reading a book called "Narratives from the Crib."

In this book, they introduce the concept of non-communicative monologues. It turns out some babies babel to themselves before going to sleep, with nobody else in the room.

I think there is an element of poetry to such babel. Or an element of babel to some poetry.





For formal mumbo jumbo about the history of Making the familiar strange and the strange familiar:

http://alistair.cockburn.us/Making+the+strange+familiar,+and+the+familiar+strange#discussion

 

[bronzeage]

Making the familiar strange and the strange familiar is an important bit of theory for me.

The poet uses metaphor (the most important trick of all, imo) to attach the familiar to something more fantastical. Thereby suggesting meaning to that which might otherwise seem quite meaningless.

Likewise, the poet is able to use metaphor to attach the unknown to the well-known, thereby bringing sense or comfort.

The poet can pursue this end in a personal way, writing only for herself, or in a communicative way, for an audience. Two different approaches that will end in two different poems.

Paradox might exist in the poet's intention.

Sometimes, a poet might write for the purpose of establishing an identity as a poet. And for no other reason.

I was reading a book called "Narratives from the Crib."

In this book, they introduce the concept of non-communicative monologues. It turns out some babies babel to themselves before going to sleep, with nobody else in the room.

I think there is an element of poetry to such babel. Or an element of babel to some poetry.





For formal mumbo jumbo about the history of Making the familiar strange and the strange familiar:

http://alistair.cockburn.us/Making+the+strange+familiar,+and+the+familiar+strange#discussion

The metaphor, "theory of poetry" is the problem. Poetry is metaphor and can only be defined with another metaphor.

The term "theory" does not apply to poetry in any useful fashion. In science, a theory is a concept which explains an observed phenomena and predicts the existence of one yet unseen. If someone can state a theory of poetry which meets this standard, I want to hear it. When there is no objective observation, there can be no objective standard.

I once had a neighbor who was playing Arab music on his stereo. To me, it sounded like the death of many cats. I could not understand the words and did not like the melody. I finally had enough and knocked on his door. He opened the door and I saw tears running down his face. I asked what was wrong.

He said he was okay, just that the song was so sad, it always made him cry.

 

[Palba_Noruda]

I forgot to mention:

There is a notion that suggests taking communication as the intention of a poem compromises the integrity of the poem.

The belief is that when you write something in exchange for payment, you are a whore.

So to extend that argument, when a poet writes something in order to communicate, he is seeking to be paid. But instead of being paid with money, he wants to be paid with understanding or at least empathy. He wants his sense of alienation to be relieved or his sins to be forgiven. Does that make him a whore?

It's a harsh argument that I think the art community has gotten past. I mean, now-a-days to make art, one has to address the rampant commercialism that infests every square inch of human existence. The way most artists address said commercialism is to participate fully as johns AND whores.

Or maybe it's because the "I wanna be a whore" role-players have finally made the desire to be a whore a legit phenomenon to the point where being a whore is actually some sort of accomplishment.

 

[Palba_Noruda]

Poetry

The term "theory" does not apply to poetry in any useful fashion.

I agree, theory and poetry are difficult define.

 

[bronzeage]

I forgot to mention:

There is a notion that suggests taking communication as the intention of a poem compromises the integrity of the poem.

The belief is that when you write something in exchange for payment, you are a whore.

So to extend that argument, when a poet writes something in order to communicate, he is seeking to be paid. But instead of being paid with money, he wants to be paid with understanding or at least empathy. He wants his sense of alienation to be relieved or his sins to be forgiven. Does that make him a whore?

It's a harsh argument that I think the art community has gotten past. I mean, now-a-days to make art, one has to address the rampant commercialism that infests every square inch of human existence. The way most artists address said commercialism is to participate fully as johns AND whores.

Or maybe it's because the "I wanna be a whore" role-players have finally made the desire to be a whore a legit phenomenon to the point where being a whore is actually some sort of accomplishment.

I want to be a whore. I want to be a well paid whore.

The real problem is there is no market for whores who try to sell what most people give away.

Real whores sell their talent to someone who really wants it and consumes it on the spot. There is an old liner which goes, "A true friend is the guy who gets two blowjobs and brings one back for you."

When a poet wants to be whore, his customer is someone who thinks they can sell it to someone else.

 

[twelveoone]

So to extend that argument, when a poet writes something in order to communicate, ...

WTF

here it is


Writer



Poem



Reader


A large part of this problem is the readers reaction: This says something...it says something in the same way anything external can. Maybe it's just my def for communication which always implies a two way flow between people. At a reading a certain amount of communication does take place because the feedback loop is there (body language, audience reaction, etc.) but that would be:

Reader



Poem



Listener


I can imagine a poem

Reader: "God, that really says something to me...."


Poem:

Poem:

Poem:

Until some sort of breakthough is reached

Poem: "Good, I exist just for you, but that is vertical communication, we should try horizonal also"


That would be more commonly known as breakdown

 

[twelveoone]

For formal mumbo jumbo about the history of Making the familiar strange and the strange familiar:

http://alistair.cockburn.us/Making+the+strange+familiar,+and+the+familiar+strange#discussion

http://www.poetryfoundation.org/journal/article.html?id=239968

Strange begat stranger

 

[Palba_Noruda]

A large part of this problem is the readers reaction:

Yes, I agree.

I believe the relationship between poet and audience can ultimately be paradoxical.

There is a lovely Korean film called Spring Summer Fall Winter ... and Spring.

In the film, there is a mystic who writes poetry on a rock with a brush and water. By the time he gets to the end of the poem, the beginning is evaporating. And so he composes poems to himself in impermanent loops.

It's poetry, but it needs no audience. It is a practice for right living.

Still, he is getting something from the poetry, so I suppose that still makes him a whore. LOL.

For me, no discussion of poetry theory is complete without acknowledging such a personal practice.

The audience, in this kind of poetry, can be a way to tune the self. Language is such a social phenomenon, the poet wants to check in with others in order to tune the poetry and the self. Is that horizontal communication?

On another note, I was listening to an interview with the poet Louise Gluck, where she says:

"No, not communication of the self. That's not what I want. In fact the issue of ego is very sensitive to me. I think most contemporary poetry is horrifically disfigured by it. There is a territoriality in most poetry that goes out to claim 'my pain,' 'my father,' 'my mother,' 'my past. There's a swagger to it that offends me greatly. I would like to write poetry that is intensely personal but completely devoid of egotism. Dickinson is the easiest example."

Of course, Dickinson had one, maybe two, people she shared her work with in her lifetime?

http://alexanderneubauer.com/category/blog/
(audio of several interviews)

 

[bronzeage]

Poetry which is intended for no one but the author is a form of masturbation. It does need to please or appeal to anyone outside its limited audience.

If it serves it's purpose, there is no reason for anyone else to judge it, or in most cases even read it.

 

[Palba_Noruda]

Poetry which is intended for no one but the author is a form of masturbation.

Perhaps. What do you think about prayer? Masturbation also?

If it serves it's purpose, there is no reason for anyone else to judge it, or in most cases even read it.

If a poem falls down in a forest and no one is there to read it, does it exist?

 

[twelveoone]

In this book, they introduce the concept of non-communicative monologues. It turns out some babies babel to themselves before going to sleep, with nobody else in the room.

I think there is an element of poetry to such babel. Or an element of babel to some poetry.



.

The Gospel of John King James Version
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

This might be an interesting avenue to pursue. Check out: Steven Pinker, The Language Instinct. easy read, but important work on brain development. And how and why it stops.

But imagine the power and infant feels when language starts to work for it; the attention.


continuing....in book after book, I keep finding things like

...getting behind the word
...the words becoming the Word

All I would have to do, is flesh this out, footnote the hell out of it, PHD thesis that no one would read. - too old,
too much time, better spent
fucking with the word
fucking with the audience

But you Palba, may be on to something here.

 

[bronzeage]

Perhaps. What do you think about prayer? Masturbation also?




If a poem falls down in a forest and no one is there to read it, does it exist?

A lot of masturbation concludes with a short prayer.

If a prayer is masturbation, then a prayer circle would be a circle jerk. Certainly, most group discussions about poetry become one, sooner or later.

 

[butters]

one has to consider the upholstery

 

[bronzeage]

one has to consider the upholstery

If there is a choice, I prefer velour or chintz. You can alway tell when someone has been discussing poetry on a leather sofa.

 

[Palba_Noruda]

PHD
too much time better spent

Meh, I would rather spend my time alphabetizing word lists, breaking the words into parts of speech, rewriting all the posts with the same words only differently, creating similes for all my new phrases, creating poems out of the similes, creating stories out of the poems by mixing them with the writing in my notebooks and by stealing plots and such from others.

So yes, time better spent doing something else

If a prayer is masturbation, then a prayer circle would be a circle jerk. Certainly, most group discussions about poetry become one, sooner or later.

Heh heh. Is that an invitation?

we're having fun

You said it, chip.

 

[bronzeage]

Heh heh. Is that an invitation?

Are you right handed or left handed?