Christianity - Rewiring my Brain

[Bramblethorn]

But society does not have a default moral compass. All you have to do is look at the world around you to see that. Some people think it is acceptable to fly an airplane into a building and kill thousands of people, (9/11) just because they don't like you, or put millions of people they don't like in concentration camps and kill them, (Nazi Germany). Just because you think you have a moral compass, doesn't mean that society does.

Imagine you're an alien scientist, come to study Earth. You send down a probe and it brings back a couple of dozen termites. You give them a battery of intelligence tests, test their ability to solve problems. You'd probably conclude that this is one of the stupidest and least capable creatures in the entire universe, doomed for extinction as soon as something smarter comes along.

Then you travel down to Earth and notice a cluster of buildings, some eight or nine metres tall, intricate as a cathedral, shaped to exploit the sun's movement and air circulation so that they keep their occupants comfortable all year round despite the scorching sun and torrential rain the area can get. The occupants organise to repair their buildings when they get damaged, they go out and forage in very efficient groups, they tend to their children. A group of termites shows behaviour that you'd never be able to predict just by studying a few individual termites - what's known as emergence.

People are like that, but in the reverse direction. ("A person is smart; people are dumb, panicky animals.") We are living in much larger groups than we evolved for, using 21st-century technology with brains that have barely changed from what we had ten thousand years ago. As a result we have some undesirable emergent properties - aka "mob psychology".

So I don't think there's an inherent contradiction between the idea that most individual people are kind and decent folk, and that those same individual people can form organisations (governments, corporations, whatever) that do appalling things to other people.

You can buy a politician, (and subsequently the law), but you can't buy God. When the belief in God, (and church), is strong, society has a moral compass.

Indeed, but not always pointing in the right direction. The 9/11 hijackers believed in God. Ireland has experienced hundreds of years of sectarian violence thanks to Protestant-vs-Catholic conflicts.

When the belief in God and church is weak, you have what you have today: murder/suicides, drug gangs controlling neighborhoods, terrorist threats, etc.

False premise. Media and politics both have an interest in scaring us with the idea that society is becoming more violent and more dangerous, but if you check the numbers, it's not.

The US homicide rate has been steadily declining; the rate for 2012 (most recent data I have) is less than half what it was in 1991. The UK has experienced a similar decline. So has Australia: 2007 (latest data in that source) had the lowest number of homicide victims on record, despite increasing population.

People talk about school massacres in the USA like they started with Columbine, but the worst one in the USA's history was way back in 1927 when Andrew Kehoe murdered 44 people.

 

[FGB]

I am a Christian because I asked God through his son Jesus to come into my life and help me change from the a stupid, worthless, self-centered and evil mother fucker that I was.


I am a Baptist because he Insisted with an irresistible force that I go to this certain church and be baptized.

It was a Baptist church.

Have I experienced miracles and prophesy in action...Yes I have.

Am I happy to be in his family? Yes I am.

Does that mean my life is any better or easier that anybody's else's? HELL no it doesn't.

While it means that I don't always get to do the first thing my instinct tells me to do and sometimes I growl and bitch about not getting to do all the things the heathen seem to enjoy. The peace of mind and the fruits of the sprit are very good compensation for the minute pleasures.

They include love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

Not a bad trade.

 

[jaF0]

^^ Mus' be some really good Ganja ya' got der Mon!

 

[SCcouple1990]

But society does not have a default moral compass. All you have to do is look at the world around you to see that. Some people think it is acceptable to fly an airplane into a building and kill thousands of people, (9/11) just because they don't like you, or put millions of people they don't like in concentration camps and kill them, (Nazi Germany). Just because you think you have a moral compass, doesn't mean that society does.

For example: The 1% today think its perfectly acceptable to pay politicians to change banking and investment laws in their favor so they can control the wealth of nations at your expense. You can't even get interest on a savings account, (where 30 years ago you could), because the Federal banks loan money to the rich at 0% interest. Why should rich investors like hedge fund managers borrow money from you through individual savings accounts when they can get money from the government for free? Because we have no social moral compass, the rich get richer while you have less and less opportunity. Because they have no moral compass, politicians sell their vote for campaign contributions, "at your expense"!

You can buy a politician, (and subsequently the law), but you can't buy God. When the belief in God, (and church), is strong, society has a moral compass. When the belief in God and church is weak, you have what you have today: murder/suicides, drug gangs controlling neighborhoods, terrorist threats, etc. Regardless of whether or not God exists, when you marginalize the church, the only person you hurt is yourself. Politicians can be bought, God cannot: The church IS the moral compass of society. Even the OP suffers because he marginalized the church in his own mind.

Note: For those too stupid to figure out that I quoted another post to make my point and this post is not an intentional jab at anyone's opinion or point of view - - I quoted another post to make my point and this post is not an intentional jab at anyone's opinion or point of view!

Planes into buildings was done in the name of religion, as have many evil actions.

God may not be able to be bought, but one can argue that religious favor has been bought through history.

While I could argue that God is the foundation of society's moral compass, society has a moral compass, even though it may be sliding. Otherwise stealing, killing, and raping would be more common and accepted.

 

[GiggLeGasm]

why do we feel the need to challenge people who use God/church/spirituality as a moral compass?

It strikes me as odd that, of all the strange things people share here, that is the one that bothers people.

 

[NippleMuncher]

I feel like this is a defining moment in my life where I am finding my identity for the first time after 27 years. I guess this is the part where it just gets really hard before it ever gets easier? I dunno...

You are absolutely right, that is exactly what this moment is, for many of the reasons you just stated. If you want an honest opinion, your religious consternation, in actuality, has nothing to do with the core issue, and that is, trying to determine how much of the load of crap you've been fed all your life applies to you.

We are born into this world a clean slate, there is no god, there is no hate, there is no moral code, there are only your five senses. From that very moment, everyone and everything around you shapes your perception of the world and what you should be, feel, believe, and behave within it. The majority of this input are the personal issues of your parents, that is to say that they have foisted their own values, their own beliefs, and their own issues upon you, rather than giving you the tools you needed to make life choices for yourself.

They are Christian, so you will be Christian. They are straight, you will be straight. They are conservative, Republican, southern, redneck, green eyed, purple, meat eating, or whatever other arbitrary absurdity you can come up with . . . ergo, so shall you be too. The point here is, whatever they are, they raised you to be a carbon copy of them, rather than simply giving you love and nurturing, and allowing you to decide who and what you wanted to be.

You now say that you have never identified with the majority of what you were raised with, so set it all aside. Clear you mind, clear your space, and start anew. Begin by analyzing each item that you've set aside on an individual basis. Start with small stuff first, you will have less resistance to looking at it deeply. Determine if this is a belief system that is yours or someone else's, then determine if it is a belief system that you wish to continue with, or do you need to tweak it to reflect your true self or throw it away altogether.

You may wish to seek counsel, whether that be clergy, professional, spiritual, or whatever, having someone to talk with will be helpful. Even just a close friend who can be compassionate about your struggles, yet remain a neutral 3rd party for you, to help you see other facets that you may not see from your current perspective, not being able to see the forest through the trees, so to speak.

 

[NippleMuncher]

why do we feel the need to challenge people who use God/church/spirituality as a moral compass?

Because godless heathens will decay into anarchy!

apparently

 

[sybarite_1]

Three Magic Words

I am reading a book with the title "Three Magic Words".
It's an ebook too now.
Interesting.

 

[jaF0]

At least somebody injected a little pussy into this thread.

Cute one too. Unshaven.

 

[sybarite_1]

At least somebody injected a little pussy into this thread.

Cute one too. Unshaven.

Hahahaaaa

You you

 

[GrrlFriday]

Being Christian has been a part of your identity your whole life before now - it's natural to wonder who you are when you become non-religious.

So, if God doesn't exist, now what?

Setting aside religion, what is important to you?

I would urge you to look after yourself, and in particular to keep up with all your friends, both Christian and non-religious. Going through these growing pains is easier with friends. (And they can tell you when you're going overboard.) Although non-religious friends can understand exactly where you're coming from, some Christians go through a similar struggle of seeing God as vengeful, and they resolve it in a way that makes their faith deepen. Until we live in John Lennon's Imagine, as a non-religious person, it's necessary to engage productively with religious people. (Even if, as a not-completely-random-example, they tell you that "all intelligent people love discussing religion".) Having a variety of opinions around you can help you work out your own, particularly when reworking your faith or lack thereof from the ground up.

 

[Harold_Hill]

'God' is a job title, not a proper name. Or is your lawyer named Lawyer?

If there is only one God, and by logic, there can be only one ultimate omnipotence, (and by the same logic, all other deities would be subservient to the ultimate omnipotence), then God is a proper name: a noun.

 

[Harold_Hill]

I'm not sure if I am understanding you. Are you saying that a religious life automatically equals a life of misery and poverty? Or that choosing a secular existence is the road to riches?

I agree with you in that happiness is not how long you live, but how well. Run my signature quote through Google translate. Roughly, it means he who lives well, lives twice.

However, not everyone defines living well as having a massive house, fancy car, and a Rolex for each wrist. Health, family, good friends, and enough free time to enjoy those things, is to me more important. I would gladly sacrifice material items to be with people I love. That's why I made the choice to stay home with my kids when they were small. It meant less $$$ but the time I had was beyond priceless to me.

Anyway, getting off topic. I am still not seeing the correlation between atheistic capitalist, money loving asshole and poor, poverty stricken, downtrodden yet pious christian.

What I am saying is: Humans by nature are inherently corrupt. If we were not inherently corrupt, we would be able to live together in harmony without any form of government. We would simply treat each other with respect and do the right thing; however, since we are inherently corrupt, we have to have some form of government to set limits so we don't kill or abuse each other. The "catch 22" with governing ourselves is that our leaders being human are also inherently corrupt. Without arguing whether man created God, or God created man, the solution to human corruption is to create a religion based on a perfect God. In theory, any moral compass laid down by a perfect God, also has to be perfect, and man following a moral compass laid down by a perfect God can live in harmony. At least that is the theory. A good example is the 10 commandments. Commandments 5 through 10 are common sense rules to help people live in harmony. Commandments 1 through 5 are the basis of the religion.

The point I was making about whether you would rather be a money loving asshole, (as you put it), or the poverty stricken schmuck was: if there were only two choices, which would you rather be. To understand my point, all we have to do is look at the world around us. For example: Stalinist Russia, (a regime that banned any form of religion), executed an estimated three million people who opposed socialism. Without any form of moral compass, governments become absolute. While Stalinist socialism was touted to be the ultimate way of life, people in Russia during that period suffered more than people living in western nations based on Christian values. Another example is a Zimbabwe. Zimbabwe is a third world country where religion has been weakened by the nation's leadership. The leader of the Zimbabwe, Robert Mugabe, lives in the opulence of a god, while his followers scrape to put food on their table. Where you find weak religion, you find oppression. Where you find a strong Christian church, you find wealth and freedom.

 

[MatthewVett]

why do we feel the need to challenge people who use God/church/spirituality as a moral compass?

It strikes me as odd that, of all the strange things people share here, that is the one that bothers people.

If people were satisfied with guiding only themselves with their compass, they wouldn't get challenged. The problem is how many religious individuals feel the need to compel others to follow their compass.

Do all religious individuals do this? No, of course not. But to have many individuals, including powerful politicians, say that we should all listen to their compass and try to enshrine their compass in law is quite disturbing to anyone with a differing compass.

 

[haha_on_me]

I look at it this way, for as long as man has been here, he has always thought there was a higher being(s). Can, for thousands of years, everyone that believed in a higher being be wrong? I believed, then questioned, and believe again, that's my choice.
Is religion, or the lack there of, something we need to fight over? Dear goodness no. That's the same as if I was going to burn your house down, because you didn't like the same baseball team as I. We're silly little creatures that feel our way is the right way.
Just relax and believe in something. I believe in Christ, that is what I believe is right. Believe in what you think is right. Religion is a personal thing.

 

[Harold_Hill]

Planes into buildings was done in the name of religion, as have many evil actions.

Yes, the attack on 9/11 was done in the name of Islam; however, that attack was a result of a conflict between two religions, Christianity and Islam. While that attack was devastating to us, Islam does set a moral compass in Islamic nations.

God may not be able to be bought, but one can argue that religious favor has been bought through history.

Yes, religious favors can be bought; however, the moral compass created by God cannot be changed by the church.

While I could argue that God is the foundation of society's moral compass, society has a moral compass, even though it may be sliding. Otherwise stealing, killing, and raping would be more common and accepted.

Theft, murder and rape is becoming acceptable in the United States.

As far as theft, in cities like New York City, victims of street muggings often don't even bother to report to the police. Victims just accept that being robbed is part of life in the city.

As far as rape, it is estimated that there are in excess of 70,000 untested rape evidence kits currently in the United States. Apparently, no one really cares if rapists are brought to justice.

While throughout history there have been isolated cases of mass murder, from schools, to movie theaters, to churches, mass murder has become a quite common. We become outraged when we are told about a mass murder in the news, but by the end of the next day, we have forgotten about it and moved on to something more interesting. And murder suicide has become so common that it rarely makes headlines anymore.

 

[Harold_Hill]

Oh and I know you guys have been saying that I can fit this God into my life and live the way I want. That's not cutting it for me either. It's not that I'm stepping away from God. I'm angry, sad, and confused. I don't believe there's a cookie-cutter deity out there to just make me feel better about why life is what my purpose is, giving me hope that divine intervention is incoming. No, I believe that there is an evil being who is jealous, a murderer, without mercy, and it's all for his own joy. We are here to entertain him, to be his friend, to worship him. Nah, fuck that. God sounds like a lonely middle school child who has no friends and is playing with his toys, saying that he will burn them for all eternity if they don't do what he says.

If you are sad, angry and confused, don't blame God for your poor decisions. The purpose of God is to provide eternal bliss for the human soul, not to find you a girlfriend, or make your team win the Super Bowl. God gave humans free will, and because we have free will, it is our responsibility to provide our own happiness. If you are unhappy and angry, then you need to look at yourself, and the decisions you have made that has brought you to this place and life.

 

[Harold_Hill]

Left web site due to censored messages by chargergirl

 

[NightL]

Where you find a strong Christian church, you find wealth and freedom.

Latin America?

 

[Harold_Hill]

Left web site due to censored messages by chargergirl

 

[Bramblethorn]

I think if I were an alien scientist, I would notice that termites aren't the dominant species on this planet.

By what criteria? There are far more of them than us, and they have a pretty good chance of outlasting us.

 

[Bramblethorn]

why do we feel the need to challenge people who use God/church/spirituality as a moral compass?

It strikes me as odd that, of all the strange things people share here, that is the one that bothers people.

Same reason we feel the need to challenge those who don't, I guess. There's been challenging on both sides in this thread

 

[MatthewVett]

Yes, the attack on 9/11 was done in the name of Islam; however, that attack was a result of a conflict between two religions, Christianity and Islam. While that attack was devastating to us, Islam does set a moral compass in Islamic nations.



Yes, religious favors can be bought; however, the moral compass created by God cannot be changed by the church.



Theft, murder and rape is becoming acceptable in the United States.

As far as theft, in cities like New York City, victims of street muggings often don't even bother to report to the police. Victims just accept that being robbed is part of life in the city.

As far as rape, it is estimated that there are in excess of 70,000 untested rape evidence kits currently in the United States. Apparently, no one really cares if rapists are brought to justice.

While throughout history there have been isolated cases of mass murder, from schools, to movie theaters, to churches, mass murder has become a quite common. We become outraged when we are told about a mass murder in the news, but by the end of the next day, we have forgotten about it and moved on to something more interesting. And murder suicide has become so common that it rarely makes headlines anymore.

Sure would be awkward if statistics showed that America's murder rate has been going down per capita recently, huh?

http://thepublicintellectual.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Homicides-1900-2010-2.jpg

Or violent crime in general?

http://wallstreetflaneur.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Violent-Crime-Rates-Per-Capita2.png

 

[MatthewVett]

Where you find weak religion, you find oppression. Where you find a strong Christian church, you find wealth and freedom.

Ah yes, the wealth and freedom of pre-revolutionary France, for instance. And the oppression of the legally secular United States. Let's not forget how oppressive Sweden is!

In fact, if you chart religiosity vs per capita GDP, you get this graph, which shows a clear trend, even with the obvious outlier of the US: http://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/images/issues/200803/secular-graph.gif

 

[Harold_Hill]

Left web site due to censored messages by chargergirl