Companion to the Five in Five

[Tzara]

You're welcome.

As I'm English — well, originally anyway — I just think the passive voice is being a decent chap and a jolly nice thing to do with/to/under a reader. When Microsoft Word's grammar checker starts complaining about something being in the passive voice I just tell it to go fuck itself and all the rest of its automated siblings. (Ummm, but that's the Orse-strayyan coming out in me.)

In short I see nothing wrong with the use of the passive voice in this poem: it is that combined with the electric imagery (it is passive after all to be shocked) that makes the great word scorched so effective in the end. Passivity is the whole point of the poem: it is about being in the presence of a natural force.

Perhaps.

The problem with passive voice, I think, is that it distances the reader. And what is worse, softens the language.

A distanced reader is probably OK here. What your narrator is, frankly. But softening the language is completely wrong. It should be, on the contrary, amped up.

So, basically, I'm still rethinking this. I had one class that said rewrite the poem from scratch, without looking at your original words and that may be where this one is at.

So, as I've said, the honest and serious responses are helpful. They help to clarify what I think about it.

And ultimately I am the Decider.

Oh, God. Unfortunately.

 

[Sara Crewe]

You're welcome.

As I'm English — well, originally anyway — I just think the passive voice is being a decent chap and a jolly nice thing to do with/to/under a reader. When Microsoft Word's grammar checker starts complaining about something being in the passive voice I just tell it to go fuck itself and all the rest of its automated siblings. (Ummm, but that's the Orse-strayyan coming out in me.)

In short I see nothing wrong with the use of the passive voice in this poem: it is that combined with the electric imagery (it is passive after all to be shocked) that makes the great word scorched so effective in the end. Passivity is the whole point of the poem: it is about being in the presence of a natural force.

Okay. I see El's point about the passivity of the main character's stance in the poem. To be honest that passive voice didn't bother me till the last two lines. I like El's last fix.


I don't agree that the use of the passive voice in a poem is generally a good thing. Passive creates distance from the reader which for the most part is a bad thing.


And T. you should know two things about me by now, I only mess with poems that I believe are very good and have value beyond that moment i.e. I feel other people should read them. And secondly, I am not shy.

Ahem.

 

[Eluard]

And secondly, I am not shy.

Ahem.

Tzara, I think if I were you I'd be scorched all over again.

 

[Tzara]

Okay. I see El's point about the passivity of the main character's stance in the poem. To be honest that passive voice didn't bother me till the last two lines. I like El's last fix.


I don't agree that the use of the passive voice in a poem is generally a good thing. Passive creates distance from the reader which for the most part is a bad thing.


And T. you should know two things about me by now, I only mess with poems that I believe are very good and have value beyond that moment i.e. I feel other people should read them. And secondly, I am not shy.

Ahem.

I'll just briefly point out that we said the same thing:

You: Passive creates distance from the reader which for the most part is a bad thing.
Me: The problem with passive voice, I think, is that it distances the reader.​

OK. Group hug time!

 

[Sara Crewe]

I'll just briefly point out that we said the same thing:

You: Passive creates distance from the reader which for the most part is a bad thing.
Me: The problem with passive voice, I think, is that it distances the reader.​

OK. Group hug time!

I didn't see your post before I posted mine. My bad. Je m'excuse.


Group hug? Okay. I actually want to see any hug that has Tzara and El in it together. I will however, see it from the inside. Better perspective.

 

[Tzara]

I didn't see your post before I posted mine. My bad. Je m'excuse.


Group hug? Okay. I actually want to see any hug that has Tzara and El in it together. I will however, see it from the inside. Better perspective.

Hey. I'd hug, or well maybe, bump knuckles with El. Or at least trade dogeared copied of Feyerabend's Against Method.

I can't really speak for him, but I would be all over hugging you.

Uh. 'Cuz I am affectionate and like polite Canadians.

 

[Sara Crewe]

Hey. I'd hug, or well maybe, bump knuckles with El. Or at least trade dogeared copied of Feyerabend's Against Method.

I can't really speak for him, but I would be all over hugging you.

Uh. 'Cuz I am affectionate and like polite Canadians.

Um ,yeah, I can see the bumpin' knuckles but I dunno if El would be into a full on hug. Guys usually just bump chests and flap their arms once like a bird anyway when they hug each other.

Hugs are good. I can honestly say that I have never been hugged for my good manners. *yay national stereotyping*

Just warnin' you. I am a chronic hug-extender. Don't like to let go of people.

 

[Tzara]

I can stomach it. I've just usually taken stuff I want to have brutalized elsewhere. But you are right when you respond to Eluard that we don't have enough critiquing going on. I think it is possible to work on flaws alone, (and there always are flaws for me; when I fix one I see three more) but it makes it easier to have an outside eye.

Thank you for pointing me in the right direction on where to post in here to get feedback. I would be happy to give feedback to others. So far, the only person who had ever asked me to was Rainman, so I hadn't been. But yeah maybe getting the critique thread active again would be the ticket. I know that's probably easier said than done.

I think if you PM people asking for comment you might get a better response. In some ways that authorizes someone to say what they think.

The problem is, as Sara said somewhere here today, making sure that the person really won't get upset, regardless of what is said.

It's hard to do. I've gotten upset about comments . But after I've thought about it I've always realized the commentor was right and went on with life.

Just as a note: Some people comment more nicely than others, meaning the "I thought your poem sucked" comes out differently depending upon who voices the comment.

Do not be fooled. The message is the same.

Not that any of your poems suck.

Or, for that matter, mine.

 

[Tzara]

Um ,yeah, I can see the bumpin' knuckles but I dunno if El would be into a full on hug. Guys usually just bump chests and flap their arms once like a bird anyway when they hug each other.

Well, Australia has the Ashes, y'know. Of course, that gets confusing. I think El actually is English, so that may be a problem. And hell if I know whether he loves cricket.

Sigh. The Internet. It's so effing international.

Hugs are good. I can honestly say that I have never been hugged for my good manners. *yay national stereotyping*

Just warnin' you. I am a chronic hug-extender. Don't like to let go of people.

Washingtonians are like quasi-Canadians. I mean, we're so close to you, politically. Or maybe not you. Seattle would be like all NDP, I'm thinkin'. Or perhaps Green. Hard to tell.

But latch-on hugs? Hmmph.

 

[Sara Crewe]

I think if you PM people asking for comment you might get a better response. In some ways that authorizes someone to say what they think.

The problem is, as Sara said somewhere here today, making sure that the person really won't get upset, regardless of what is said.

It's hard to do. I've gotten upset about comments . But after I've thought about it I've always realized the commentor was right and went on with life.

Just as a note: Some people comment more nicely than others, meaning the "I thought your poem sucked" comes out differently depending upon who voices the comment.

Do not be fooled. The message is the same.

Not that any of your poems suck.

Or, for that matter, mine.

PG

I think for me, in order to critique someone I have to read a lot of their writing so that I have a sense of their style. So often, critique points are style quibbles. You aren't really pointing out a flaw just telling the poet how reacted as a reader and maybe how that reaction could be improved by making a change. It's easy to tell someone that a poem is really bad and should be scraped. It's harder to get a sense of exactly where a good poem goes wrong for you and how that might be changed so it becomes a great poem.

For me it would be easier if you asked me direct questions about places in your poem you wanted help with as opposed to giving overall comments. That would help me understand where you were coming from and to see what you wanted to keep in your work. Gives me a better sense of your voice. Crtis that confuse or silence the poet's voice are frustrating to receive and hard to handle.



And Tzara, you are obsessed with the word suck. It's kind of an
onomatopoeia-ic word isn't it? Just sayin'.

-SC

 

[Sara Crewe]

Well, Australia has the Ashes, y'know. Of course, that gets confusing. I think El actually is English, so that may be a problem. And hell if I know whether he loves cricket.

Sigh. The Internet. It's so effing international.
Washingtonians are like quasi-Canadians. I mean, we're so close to you, politically. Or maybe not you. Seattle would be like all NDP, I'm thinkin'. Or perhaps Green. Hard to tell.

But latch-on hugs? Hmmph.

I don't think you would be NDP-like. That would mean you have no real platform and if you were actually given power, you would most likely collapse your region of the country with fiscally irresponsible decisions. Green too, are a pretty fringe-like party. I know you guys are on the fringe out there but I still think you would most likely be Liberals (with a big L) if you united with land of moose and well, beaver.

I was hoping for Bohemian Rhapsody. It's longer.

 

[Tzara]

I was hoping for Bohemian Rhapsody. It's longer.

What can I say but that I am more Dr. Brian May, the guitar guy, than Freddie.

And Dr. Brian is an astrophysicist.

So, like, um, my Big Bang is like maybe at most a few seconds.

It's a really, really big bang, though.

 

[normal jean]

I'm sure that's how most people write. What you are describing is what makes your writing uniquely yours. If you tried too hard to write like someone else your writing loses it's power because it becomes an echo.

Knowing what you like is the first step in being able to write. And if all that matters to you is that you like it and appreciate it then you never have to be concerned with what others consider 'good'. It's only when readers are important to you that you have to be prepared to listen to what they like or dislike in your writing. Sometimes you make changes and sometimes you say, "Sara, honey, I think you are whacked and totally wrong," and do whatever ya please.

For the most part, most people don't offer criticisms of other people's writing without knowing if that is something that person is interested in. For me that even goes one step further because I have been yelled at once too often for critiques. I never critique someone's writing unless I am directly asked to do so AND I am totally confident that if I say something that may seem negative that person won't take it personally. That's why I was picking at Tzara's poem.

any time you have ever spoken a word about one of mine, I was honored that you bothered, that you took the time to read me. When a huge host of folks around here quit giving their opinions, I just assumed my work had gotten so bad, I just quit trying. Only recently have I decided that for me, I want to be read. I want it, whether or not I get a critique, well, that is up to the reader. I hope they like it, but if they see a glaring problem, I sincerely hope, that if they don't wish to point it out on the comment section, they would send me a private message or an email.

But that is just me. I am the poetic underdog around here. I am so overwhelmed by the education you all have, I feel small and unimportant and terribly myopic about my work. oh well, fuck it..it is what it is...

right ?



hell, I am just gonna come out and say it--

I got WAY better FB before the damned comment feature came along.

 

[Tzara]

That would mean you have no real platform and if you were actually given power, you would most likely collapse your region of the country with fiscally irresponsible decisions.

Sorry. That does not seem like any New Democratic Party, at least one anywhere near me.

 

[Sara Crewe]

What can I say but that I am more Dr. Brian May, the guitar guy, than Freddie.

And Dr. Brian is an astrophysicist.

So, like, um, my Big Bang is like maybe at most a few seconds.

It's a really, really big bang, though.

Okay, you play guitar and I'll sing.

Yes. But would I feel the earth move beneath my feet?

 

[Tzara]

any time you have ever spoken a word about one of mine, I was honored that you bothered, that you took the time to read me. When a huge host of folks around here quit giving their opinions, I just assumed my work had gotten so bad, I just quit trying. Only recently have I decided that for me, I want to be read. I want it, whether or not I get a critique, well, that is up to the reader. I hope they like it, but if they see a glaring problem, I sincerely hope, that if they don't wish to point it out on the comment section, they would send me a private message or an email.

But that is just me. I am the poetic underdog around here. I am so overwhelmed by the education you all have, I feel small and unimportant and terribly myopic about my work. oh well, fuck it..it is what it is...

right ?

NJ:

We all feel stupid about whatever education we have. I have a degree in psychology. Which means, what, exactly, regarding poetry?

I think we all stoppped commenting because of the combination of (1) you don't always have anything (you think) meaningful to say, and (2) you don't want to say anything the least bit negative.

As to (1), of course you (we) always do. We're readers. But, reference (2).

As to (2), we all want to be liked. Most of us, anyway. So saying even something so mild as "I thought your metaphor X was a little unclear" runs the possibility of some hysteric response. I, as commentor, don't need that, and more to the point, I don't wish to upset anyone.

I mean, why would I?

 

[Tzara]

Okay, you play guitar and I'll sing.

Yes. But would I feel the earth move beneath my feet?

You're thinking of Carole King.

But, boy, if that isn't a lead-in line, I have never heard one in my life.

Oh, trust me. All you have to do is feel the beat.




And it kinda goes ka THUMP ka THUMP ka THUMP ka THUMP

Strangely, almost exactly synchronized with my heart.

 

[normal jean]

NJ:

We all feel stupid about whatever education we have. I have a degree in psychology. Which means, what, exactly, regarding poetry?

I think we all stoppped commenting because of the combination of (1) you don't always have anything (you think) meaningful to say, and (2) you don't want to say anything the least bit negative.

As to (1), of course you (we) always do. We're readers. But, reference (2).

As to (2), we all want to be liked. Most of us, anyway. So saying even something so mild as "I thought your metaphor X was a little unclear" runs the possibility of some hysteric response. I, as commentor, don't need that, and more to the point, I don't wish to upset anyone.

I mean, why would I?

I understand. I try to be nice when I comment. But then there are people here, who say they don't consider themselves poets, like you, like Tzara, like any number of very modest people who are better than people I have read who have BOOKS of poems in libraries.

But just today, I had 2 people tell me something I suspected, that a certain word I used was bad in the poem. How could they have known I struggled with that particular word? They couldn't have,but it came through and they saw it and verified what I thought. I appreciate that, very much.

But in the same token, some people who deny themselves the status "poet" had poems in the competition this year and the ones I voted for won. Congrats, Tz and Tess. But if you don't really consider yourself a poet, what are you? That part baffles me... you're too good to NOT be called "poet".

But I understand and am sorry to have butted into your conversation.

 

[Sara Crewe]

When I am working I am almost never here but when I am off work I do read the threads but not posted poems. Pretty much everyone I want to read posts their work first on the threads. If you post poems on threads like the 30/30 I will read you and if you want fb, I'd be happy to give it to you. You have never been anything less than gracious any time I commented on your stuff.

Tzara is right about education. You can be educated and understand theory all you want but that won't necessarily make anyone a great writer. You have a good heart, a good ear for language, great eyes for seeing and you want to learn. You are not the underdog. When you say that, you know that a part of you let's that be a little more true right? Say, "My name is Julie and I'm fucking brilliant. Nobody has written a better frog poem than me ever in the history of the world."

We all have people in our lives who say negative things about us--don't let one of the be yourself.


T.

any time you have ever spoken a word about one of mine, I was honored that you bothered, that you took the time to read me. When a huge host of folks around here quit giving their opinions, I just assumed my work had gotten so bad, I just quit trying. Only recently have I decided that for me, I want to be read. I want it, whether or not I get a critique, well, that is up to the reader. I hope they like it, but if they see a glaring problem, I sincerely hope, that if they don't wish to point it out on the comment section, they would send me a private message or an email.

But that is just me. I am the poetic underdog around here. I am so overwhelmed by the education you all have, I feel small and unimportant and terribly myopic about my work. oh well, fuck it..it is what it is...

right ?



hell, I am just gonna come out and say it--

I got WAY better FB before the damned comment feature came along.

 

[normal jean]

When I am working I am almost never here but when I am off work I do read the threads but not posted poems. Pretty much everyone I want to read posts their work first on the threads. If you post poems on threads like the 30/30 I will read you and if you want fb, I'd be happy to give it to you. You have never been anything less than gracious any time I commented on your stuff.

Tzara is right about education. You can be educated and understand theory all you want but that won't necessarily make anyone a great writer. You have a good heart, a good ear for language, great eyes for seeing and you want to learn. You are not the underdog. When you say that, you know that a part of you let's that be a little more true right? Say, "My name is Julie and I'm fucking brilliant. Nobody has written a better frog poem than me ever in the history of the world."

We all have people in our lives who say negative things about us--don't let one of the be yourself.


T.

I try to get into the threads, like the ones you mention, but I must have ADD because I can't keep up with them. You are right about the negativity. I have loads of college credits that are doing nothing for me ( degree wise, Ineed 3 math classes to get my "paper" and that is not ever gonna happen.) , yet I send off a check every month, to pay for them.

as for the frog poems, someone from outer space sends them to me. I'm pretty sure about that. They just pop up when they want to and the confines of a 30/30 thread will not dictate when and if they come. I can't write like that, I have tried.

Thank you for being so honest with me. I have always loved that about you. I hope your students realize what a wonderful teacher that have. Truly.

 

[Sara Crewe]

You're thinking of Carole King.

But, boy, if that isn't a lead-in line, I have never heard one in my life.

Oh, trust me. All you have to do is feel the beat.




And it kinda goes ka THUMP ka THUMP ka THUMP ka THUMP

Strangely, almost exactly synchronized with my heart.

I was showing my New Democratic Party prejudices that are based on the actions of an older version of that party. Very bad of me.

I like sports, remember. Means I'm not above volleying up the occassional line for you so you can take it home.

So, you know what I think when I listen to someone's heart beat in their chest?


How can I make that go faster...

 

[Tzara]

But I understand and am sorry to have butted into your conversation.

What conversation? I am usually talking to myself.

(The only person, I might add, who really appreciates me, and who recognizes that I am, in fact, brilliant. )

The feedback thing is a problem, and I don't know how to fix it. I doubt that you want (and I know that I don't want) your basic "Your poem is great" comment. I mean, if someone really thinks that, OK. Yeah. All over it.

But what I really want is something like that recent 5/5 of mine where you get questions. The I did not understand this, it seemed odd kind of thing. Pointing out things you need to think about.

The problem is we are all, or most of us are all, trying to write poems, not think about them, at least about those written by other people. And critiquing a poem is, at least for me, hard work. So I don't much want to do it.

'Cuz writers are selfish, after all.

 

[Sara Crewe]

I try to get into the threads, like the ones you mention, but I must have ADD because I can't keep up with them. You are right about the negativity. I have loads of college credits that are doing nothing for me ( degree wise, Ineed 3 math classes to get my "paper" and that is not ever gonna happen.) , yet I send off a check every month, to pay for them.

as for the frog poems, someone from outer space sends them to me. I'm pretty sure about that. They just pop up when they want to and the confines of a 30/30 thread will not dictate when and if they come. I can't write like that, I have tried.

Thank you for being so honest with me. I have always loved that about you. I hope your students realize what a wonderful teacher that have. Truly.

I looked for your number two poem on the 30/30 all day, chicky. Git-er-done! Or post another number one tomorrow. Don't let the numbers stress you out. we just want to see you write.

You should do what I tell my student to do. Just start. With words,a moment, a feeling--anything. I don't care if it's bad, if it stinks, if it sucks (said that for Tzara) but just get something down on paper and I swear to God, your brain will take over and make something of it. It may be something great, mediocre or crappy but who the fuck cares? You will have the powerful experience of creating and i dunno about you but for me it's second after sex.

Just write, J. It will make you feel so much better. You have to stuff to say.


lol not everyone loves the honesty, including some of my students. For the most part they think I am "bat shit crazy' to quote Bijou but it works.

 

[Tzara]

So, you know what I think when I listen to someone's heart beat in their chest?


How can I make that go faster...

Well, let's see. This should be pretty basic.

Just put your hand there. No, no. There. And do, um, let me show you. Yeah. That.

 

[normal jean]

What conversation? I am usually talking to myself.

(The only person, I might add, who really appreciates me, and who recognizes that I am, in fact, brilliant. )

The feedback thing is a problem, and I don't know how to fix it. I doubt that you want (and I know that I don't want) your basic "Your poem is great" comment. I mean, if someone really thinks that, OK. Yeah. All over it.

But what I really want is something like that recent 5/5 of mine where you get questions. The I did not understand this, it seemed odd kind of thing. Pointing out things you need to think about.

The problem is we are all, or most of us are all, trying to write poems, not think about them, at least about those written by other people. And critiquing a poem is, at least for me, hard work. So I don't much want to do it.

'Cuz writers are selfish, after all.

That last line says it all.

I remember how I felt when that mistymommie person stole some of our work from here and off Clean Sheets. and then after her, there was another one who just stole from poets here, as far as we could determine.

I remember thinking how hard I had worked on mine from Clean Sheets--Bandora's Pox, (her affliction), and knowing how hard it is to complete something are actually proud of, yes, I will agree with you, and call myself selfish in that respect. I was so angry that she accepted what people said about those poems as if she had toiled over every line, sounded out each syllable and pored over every effin word. I hated her for it initially, now I realize what she did is because she is lazy. I really really dislike lazy, you cant be lazy and write poetry. It's kinda hard...

and dammit, you two are poets. you know it, and T, I have always thought you were brilliant, Tzara, and you know it.

see y'all later...I have home made chocolate cake waiting on me.