confounding feedback

[Icingsugar]

Ahhhh! A reviewer's nightmare come true, to be analyzed and picked apart line by line in much the same manner as was derided by the talented IcingSugar in his post .

For some reason I could not fathom that that feedback had been sent by any regular of these forums, and as such I felt that I could be a bit blunt. Please see the harsh remarks as what they are, rethorics to cheer up a disgruntled poet a bit.

My bad, my apologies.

Still, I stand by my main point. I can't say that I did pick anything apart line by line here. I was asked for the reaction to a piece of critisism. And as a critisism of of her poem...welll...it simply was not. It was a critisism of her views on family realtions. And that was what I pointed out, since the subject was brought up.

 

[Icingsugar]

But it is posted as a poem, and so, it must be treated as a poem. And as a poem, every word will be analysed, every verse dissected, and there's nothing you can do about it.

That's where I have to disagree with you. Saying "you didn't do a goodjob in putting your point of view into words in this poem" is one thing. Saying "I disagree with your point of view, therefore your poetry is bad" is an entirely different one. That is not to treat it like a poem, but to treat it like a social commentary post. Which, again, it is not.

Yes, analyse and dissect every line, every word, every syllable and it's linguistical qualities if it makes you happy, but to lash out at the core message instead is IMO a bit cheap.

If you're going to post poetry and take it the least bit seriously, you better grow a much thicker skin.

That however, is always sound advice.

/Ice - kevlar skinned, I wish

 

[Guest]

The truth is I saw very little wrong with that feedback.
...
good poetry isn't good because it comes from the heart or because it rings truth. ... as a poem, every word will be analysed, every verse dissected
...
Every single word should be the exact word necessary to convey whatever message the author wants
...
The way it is written now, most readers will look at this poem once, dismiss it, and move on.
...
If you're going to post poetry and take it the least bit seriously, you better grow a much thicker skin.

I am with Lauren 100%. She is one of maybe two or three posted poets on Lit. that I regard as a writer who makes real poetry (there a few more getting there).

I rarely speak up on the poetry board, or give poetry feedback because as with this particular piece I do not regard it as poetry and it would take a really long time for me to explain why. It's a nice enough train of thought, obviously utterly personal, but it's crap if judged by minimal poetic standards.

I no longer submit my poetry to Lit. because there were only two fellow poets who ever said anything interesting or helpful in their feedback. I got lots of flattery and praise but I don't need that.

Writing a good poem takes great time, skill, and thought. A poem is not merely blocking out sentences and phrases oddly or using a few words one might not normally speak, or translating the odd thought or painful moment into verse. Poetry can be an amazing (miraculous at times) concision and dynamics of language. I would however recommend the poetry board for anyone very new to working at creating poems. Otherwise I'd tell anyone who wants to write poetry to read about 100 times more of it than they write.

Perdita

 

[Jenny _S]

Ok, taking off my dumb-ass blond personna for a moment let me interject. It doesn't really matter if the feedback is positive or negative. I don't see much wrong with Champ's feedback either after reading the entire piece.

But, Sweet is "invested" in this poem in a way that none of the rest of of are. By that I mean she has spent her time, brain-sweat or whatever to write the poem and have it posted. All of us suffer that same affliction. We are invested in what we have written. That's one of the reasons we are our own worst editors (me at least).

Reading this or any other feedback leaves the writer with impressions. Certain feelings, sentences or phrases tend to stick in their (our) minds when we read. Regardless of how well intended or vile the intention of the feedback, whatever those words and phrases that stick in our minds are the ones that we determine to be the gist of the message, true or not.

I don't see anything wrong with what Champ wrote. I wish I would get more feedback of that quality. Maybe Sweet was a little quick on the trigger, but I can see why too.

Time to kiss and make up, then get back to writting SMUT. Ok?

 

[Lauren Hynde]

That's where I have to disagree with you. Saying "you didn't do a goodjob in putting your point of view into words in this poem" is one thing. Saying "I disagree with your point of view, therefore your poetry is bad" is an entirely different one. That is not to treat it like a poem, but to treat it like a social commentary post. Which, again, it is not.

Yes, analyse and dissect every line, every word, every syllable and it's linguistical qualities if it makes you happy, but to lash out at the core message instead is IMO a bit cheap.

I don't necessarily agree with that. Cores are as lashable as any other element, particularly if the author is foolish enough to do nothing but express personal views. That's not poetry.

Anyway, I don't think that Champagne's feedback could be equated to 'I disagree with your point of view, therefore your poetry is bad'. There's nothing being said about the intrinsic quality of the text.

This is because if you remove the 'social commentary' side of it, there's simply nothing left. The 'poem' is pure social commentary and personal reflexion.

 

[Linbido]

Time to kiss and make up, then get back to writting SMUT. Ok?

Or doing.

"Oh honey, can you come over here for a minute..."

 

[Linbido]

This is because if you remove the 'social commentary' side of it, there's simply nothing left. The 'poem' is pure social commentary and personal reflexion.

This got me thinking. Today an artist can literally put a stool (the version with legs or the vrersion described at lenth in MG's word thread) in the middle of the room floor and call it art, and a certain crowd will follow, and chant "if it is intrended to be art, then it is". Others will disagree and chant "No it's not. It's crap."

I'm just guessing here, but aren't the same dfference in definition present in the world of poerty? Is poerty not art with a different canvas. A generation or two back, the seemingly unstructured free-roaming way that mosrt of today's poerty is written would seem to many crritics as nothing but the jumbled ramblings of a madman, and certainly not poetry. Today, I'm sure that there are all kinds of different ways to approach poerty. I'm sure that there are those who say "Huh? What's this? It doesn't even rhyme.", those that what you say, and those who says "if it's intended to be a poem, then it is".

I'm not trying to be a smarrt-ass herre, I'm just interrested. Where dies thre line beteen poem and non-opem go? How much must a piece of writing differ from prose for it to be called poerty?

Edited to say: Sorry about all the typos. I hope it still makes sense.

 

[Angeline]

Ok, I'ma wade in--wade being the operative word, lol. And feel free to flame away if you don't like the answer.

I know poetry. I write it every day. I've taught it at the secondary and postsecondary levels. I publish it online and off in ezines and journals. I have a book of it coming out soon. I'm not ramming credentials at anyone, nor do I intend to suggest that I know better than you what constitutes a poem. My point is that this is a subject that is near and dear to me.

It's my observation that there are basically two types of people writing poetry here. There are those who simply enjoy writing, enjoy playing with words. They write poems and post them here. They're likely happy with what they're doing. Good for them. Who am I to judge the value of their work? The other poets here see writing poems as an avocation; they study the forms and techniques and try to learn and improve.

If you ask me to review your poem because you want to learn the serious stuff, I'll talk to you about that...at great length, lol. If you just want to be happy with what you write and want a few pointers or light edit, fine. And it's just my opinion, but I would not be overly concerned about criticism of the subject of my poem any more than I would someone saying I'm a dork because I pick chocolate over strawberry. I want to write the best possible poem, but the last thing I'm going to do is change content because somebody has a different opinion.

I used to have over 200 poems here. I got tons of feedback. I heard everything from "your poems suck and you're an ass" to "I love your poems. Write me one in which describe your body" (An unoriginal and failed approach, lol). Much of the feedback though had helpful and concrete suggestions. I took what worked and tossed the rest. It's just another opinion. And Lauren is right--if you put a poem or any art out there for people to see and you take critiques personally, you'll have your art...and an ulcer. It's not worth it.

 

[Madame Manga]

I've had similar crits of a story or two of mine; these people make a career of reading massive general injustices into small, specific, personal observations and circumstances. You can always depend on them to use academic vocabulary like a baseball bat, particularly against other women.

MM

I stand by this, but I'll admit, as I stated above, that literary or artistic critique couched in egregiously political terms invariably gets my hackles up no matter to whom it is addressed. I would back up any critic who concentrated on the structure, wording or artistry of a poem no matter how harsh the analysis was; when the overarching concern is ideology, what kind of *literary* discussion is even possible?

MM

 

[Angeline]

I would back up any critic who concentrated on the structure, wording or artistry of a poem no matter how harsh the analysis was; when the overarching concern is ideology, what kind of *literary* discussion is even possible?

Exactly so. Once you're onto ideology, regardless of whether your point is valid, you're off literary criticism.

 

[champagne1982]

THIS WAS NOT A CRITIQUE. IT WAS FEEDBACK AND A PERSONAL OPINION

 

[Angeline]

Carrie, I'm just stating an opinion as you were. If you look at my original post, a few up, you'll see that I agree with you.

My agreement with Madame Manga pertains to reviewing a poem in general, not to your specific feedback. Actually I think it's kind of bad form to print information shared privately in a public forum, but that's just my personal opinion. I also understand that sometimes a writer is bothered by a feedback message and wants to get others' opinions on it.

 

[Madame Manga]

If you define 'critique' as something offered in public, OK. But I would include 'feedback' and 'personal opinion' as ingredients of a critique in general.

You haven't said so, but was this correspondence posted without your consent? It's not just bad form to do so; it's against the rules of the Lit forum, I believe.

MM

 

[champagne1982]

I also understand that sometimes a writer is bothered by a feedback message and wants to get others' opinions on it.

I, too, understand the feeling and can empathize with the need for something to balance what I had said. sweetnpetite probably needed something positive and sought it in this forum. Though, I am left wondering why she didn't ask me what I meant; instead of soliciting rude and totally disproportionate responses from others.

Originally posted by Madame Manga
You haven't said so, but was this correspondence posted without your consent? It's not just bad form to do so; it's against the rules of the Lit forum, I believe.

Although I wasn't consulted about the posting of the contents of the email I'd sent, I decided to reply and reveal the opinionated, academic, bat-wielding ball player who'd sent it all by myself.

Originally posted by champagne1982
I know I should choose to stay anonymous in all of this but man...
I think you all deserve the chance to attack me personally...

Thankyou to everyone who responded in this thread. I think it was a worthy lesson to all. Don't you?

One last personal justification:
I thought my private email would have initiated some sort of private discussion about feminism and motherhood and all sorts of interesting shit between sweetnpetite and myself, I was mistaken.
Next time I will listen to the little voice that told me, "She won't get it. Don't send it."

 

[OldnotDead]

. . .
One last personal justification:
I thought my private email would have initiated some sort of private discussion about feminism and motherhood and all sorts of interesting shit between sweetnpetite and myself, I was mistaken.
Next time I will listen to the little voice that told me, "She won't get it. Don't send it."

As this thread developed I had one additional thought that I suspect has occurred to others as well. When originally posted I know I assumed that SweetnPetite had received the feedback anonymously. Although when I looked back, it was obvious that it was only an assumption and nothing SnP said should have made me think it. The assumption was born out of my limited experience here that previous posters had shared anonymous feedback before to get other opinions. The harshness of some of the words is common to those who have received negative, anonymous feedback, so I suspect others made a similar assumption. That assumption was possibly reinforced by SnP's carefulness in NOT disclosing the source of the feedback, thereby keeping Champers name out of it, until Champers decided to disclose herself.

Before I say one more word, I want to pause briefly to applaud both SnP and Champers for their correct handling of the rights to privacy and disclosure. Too many people violate personal privacy everyday on the internet. Most of it through casual ignorance. But I am always pleased to see someone being careful how they handle private email.

I think that the feedback NOT being anonymous does show a willingness on the part of Champers to discuss her thoughts. I would suggest that writing harsh words about an author's fitness as a parent is not, however, the kind of thing that encourages a non emotional discussion.

As a long time user of the internet, but a definite newbie here, I would reiterate some comments that I use all the time with my own colleagues and family. Written words are not easily 'taken back'. We can explain, or apologize, or even expand upon our thoughts. Once you put something in writing and send it to someone, it is there, in their own medium, under their control, available to them to play and replay as often as they like. I try to remind myself and others that it is as if your recipient has a tape recorder on which they can replay any of your negative comments over and over again. Last, and most important, is that with the internet, even though it is not right to do, anyone can forward anything you write to anyone at anytime. If you do not want your comments shared, be sure of your recipient before you hit the Enter key.

In summary, yes, Champers, your comments did provoke some meaningful discussion and some excellent guidance by some of the very knowledgable Poetic LITters. Others rightfully pointed out how criticism of thought, content and emotion can eliminate any contructive comments about style and execution. But I do not think the style of your feedback was one that encouraged meaningful discussion. That's my feedback on your feedback.

SnP, by not telling us that you had the email address, you did not allow any of us to suggest that you correspond. Some may have made other kinds of suggestions about comments that you could send directly to the source of the disquieting feedback. The willingness of someone to put their name on harsh statements shows at the very least, an attitude of responsibility that many of us are well aware is often missing.

Cordially,
OnD
http://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=135309

 

[gauchecritic]

I applaud and second everything OnD says with one extra item to add.

I've said this often and to many people with regard to what you write or say. Never apologise.

Taken at face value it is a negative maxim. The underlying thought behind it is; Never commit to paper/screen or your mouth something that you may have to apologise for. I don't mean either that you should qualify everything you say with 'someone said' or 'I read somewhere' or even IMHO. If you're going to say it, be prepared to stand by it or don't say it at all.

Never say anything for which you may later need to apologise, isn't quite as snappy.

And don't take the chicken way out by sitting on the fence. If you don't feel strongly either way, unless someone asks you directly, don't bother saying it.

Gauche

P.S This may be completely at odds with previous posts from my formative year on Lit. All I can say is: Live and learn.

 

[oggbashan]

I agree with OND and Gauche above with a couple of additions:

1. Be tolerant even if any message you receive seems too critical. What you read may not be the meaning that the sender intended.

2. If you are really angry do NOT reply at once. Wait. Go elsewhere - RL, another board, anywhere. Do not come back for at least a couple of hours. Then read the message again. Is there any possibility that you might have understood? If not, should you just ignore the message? If you really want to reply do not say things you might regret tomorrow.

3. Think before writing anything really unpleasant. If you would not want your friends on the board to see it then do not send it at all. Not by posting the board, nor by e-mail nor PM. Do you want your friends to see you with bared fangs, arched back and slashing claws?

4. Remember that what you write can be available for years.

Be careful, please.

Og (who hasn't always followed this advice and has regretted it.)

 

[Guest]

Three wise men: Old&Alive, Gauche, Ogg

thanks, Perdita

 

[OldnotDead]

I know I should be flattered . . . b u t

Three wise men: Old&Alive, Gauche, Ogg

thanks, Perdita

On the day that my wife chooses to remind me that we in different decades, I immediately imagined myself in robes with my traveling companions being Ogg and Gauche. . . .

Now if we can just alter the fantasy and maybe put us in separate tents, camped under the desert stars, attended to by numerous, nubile, nymphomaniacs (there's your alliteration Chickie) . . . ah, yes . . that's better . . .

Thanks, Perdita,

OnD

 

[gauchecritic]

Re: I know I should be flattered . . . b u t

Now if we can just alter the fantasy and maybe put us in separate tents, camped under the desert stars, attended to by numerous, nubile, nymphomaniacs (there's your alliteration Chickie) . . . ah, yes . . that's better . . .

Thanks, Perdita,

OnD

I'll go along with the companionship and the separate tents but in the desert? At night? No thanks. Give me Ilkley moor before sub-zero deserts. Oh and the nubile nymphomaniacs? I'll take the several but have them well past nubile and just once each would be fine. Mature, matronly moaners.

Gauche

 

[Guest]

Not much for camping, but can I take my pick?

Smiling maturely,

Purrdita

 

[OldnotDead]

Re: Re: I know I should be flattered . . . b u t

I'll go along with the companionship and the separate tents but in the desert? At night? No thanks. Give me Ilkley moor before sub-zero deserts. Oh and the nubile nymphomaniacs? I'll take the several but have them well past nubile and just once each would be fine. Mature, matronly moaners.

Gauche

I believe it is patently clear who will be the wiser one.

OnD <--very partial to moaners, delighted to have mature ones as long as they don't expect HIM to act mature <G>.

 

[oggbashan]

Been there, done that - 3000 odd years ago.

Properly designed tents can be warm at night. If not just cover yourself with another concubine or two. As a giant it took several concubines to make a blanket.

Modern tents can be very warm even on cold nights. In my present incarnation I've used one in six inches of snow. I was warmer than my friends in the nearby Youth Hostel - and that was without concubine blankets.

Og

 

[Seattle Zack]

Og's rules of Camping Ettiquette ... but is the concubine a Lady?

To me, camping is room service on the balcony.

--Z

 

[sweetnpetite]

I've been offline for a few days...

There are many posts which I would like to respond to, I cant even think of everything I want to say right now, but I would like to appologize to champagne and all for my breach of nettiquette in posting her e-mail. It had left me sort of realing as if from a suckerpunch, and I just didn't know what to think and felt that I needed some perspective, discussion, support- you know a big group hug I guess. I'm sorry that I led some of you to believe that it was annonymous feedback. And I did purposley not post who the feedback was from. Champagne, it was very brave and admirable of you to jump in and claim that feedback considering the hostil attitude toward it. My intent wasn't to attack you, it was just that it was the *only* feedback I had gotten and I wondered if there was something in that peom that everyone could see but me. I guess I was just feeling kind of isolated at that moment, needed some back-up, some clarity.

I never did get your return letter, although I have been looking for it. I too was hoping that maybe a discussion about motherhood, feminism and so forth would develope. I sincerely appologize if my posting of your feedback left you feeling violated in anyway, but I am glad that it brought you here. I think that I did misunderstand the intent of your letter, but the last line was very harsh and really really took me back.

I hope that you will write me back. (Rest assured I will not post any more of your correspondence) Or even continue the discussion, either here, or perhaps in a new thread. I won't know until you post again, but I hope that I have not completely alienated you by posting your words in the manner that I did.

I'm not quite sure why your response letter has not reached me. PM me if you'd like to make sure you have my address right. I would like to straigten this out personally, and again I appologize.