confounding feedback

[sweetnpetite]

I just reread the feedback, and I want to say that it does read a little differently now, that I've gotten some perspective. I definatly want to enphasize that I did NOT mean to indicate in any way that a boy-child is more valuable than a girl-child, and I am reaaaally sorry if it came out sounding like that! (Sorry to myself for innacuratly expressing my feelings.) The idea that this thought could have come accross in what I was writing has gotten me thinking. I'll probably have more to say on this later, after rolling it over in my head for a while.

 

[oggbashan]

Og's rules of Camping Ettiquette ... but is the concubine a Lady?
--Z

Of course the concubine is a Lady. Any female person who helps a King to achieve comfort at night must be a Lady. I tried to ensure that Ladies-in-Waiting didn't have to wait too long.

Og

 

[sweetnpetite]

Ahhhh! A reviewer's nightmare come true, to be analyzed and picked apart line by line in much the same manner as was derided by the talented IcingSugar in his post .

I cannot defend my feelings for that's all they are. I also wrote this to be viewed and discussed by only one other person. If I had written a personal review on one of your works and e-mailed it to you, I wouldn't expect to see it in the Poetry feedback forum nevermind that it's in the AH. Thus the adage from wise Solomon holds true yet again. "Judge not, lest ye be judged."

I am sooooo sorry. I just can't say it enough.

And I just got it, how it could be a 'backhanded compliment' it was like 'ba-dum-bump!" A woman gains value by bearing sons! Oh gosh! That's really not what I meant. It wasn't about a woman's value to society, but about how her son veiws her. Everytime I reread this thread, it's like lightbulbs going off all around me. Eeeks! I may need to re-work this 'poem' to more clearly reflect my meaning. Still thinking...

 

[sweetnpetite]

//]I wasn't going to post to this thread because I had no intention of getting involved in what appeared to be a nice spontaneously organized anonymous bashing group exercise, but if champagne came forth publicly (which was very brave), I need to do it.

The truth is I saw very little wrong with that feedback. "Venemous response"? I'm sorry, but the only thing I see is one interpretation of the poem, and quite frankly, it wasn't an unreasonable interpretation at all. Not mine, but not unreasonable.//

I guess it seemed venoumous becuase she said she pitied my children and wanted to slap my parents. That was pretty personal and felt like an attack. *To me* if felt like she was really angry at me for writing what I did. I think we both misenterpreted each other, but I hope that we will be able to fix that.


//Contrary to popular belief, good poetry isn't good because it comes from the heart or because it rings truth. Your poem is vague and judgmental, two major poetry no-nos. It's more a personal reflexion than a poem, like Ice mentioned, although that's not what he meant. Personal reflexions belong in a diary locked in a drawer. But it is posted as a poem, and so, it must be treated as a poem. And as a poem, every word will be analysed, every verse dissected, and there's nothing you can do about it.//

I have to agree with you here. It wasn't much of a poem, it really was a personal reflection, and one I wanted to share. I disagree however that a peom *can't* be personal reflection, I really don't know why not. Also, you said, good peoty *isn't* good becuasue it rings true or comes from the heart. Which I think overall, is subjective. But I would be interested in knowing why -in your oppinion- good peotry is *good* if not for those reasons stated.

//There are many ways of interpretating any given poem, but the author should be aware of as many of them as possible. Every single word should be the exact word necessary to convey whatever message the author wants to. If the message doesn't come across, it's because you're doing something wrong.//

I agree here. What I was saying was that I couldn't see where she had gotten what she did from my peom, but now that I've looked over what's been said a few times, I *do* see just where the misinterpretation happened. I honestly didn't start this thread to trash her, and it has been very good for me and eye-opening to see this discussion unfold.

//The way it is written now, most readers will look at this poem once, dismiss it, and move on. Champagne was considerate enough to email you her justified interpretation, probably the only independent, thought out feedback you got to it, and this is your response?//

Yes, it's the only feedback I recieved. It was isolated in that way, and so was I. I really needed some imput, so I posted.

//If you're going to post poetry and take it the least bit seriously, you better grow a much thicker skin.//

This is the conundrum. I don't think having a thick skin leads to exceptional peotry, or writing in general. People with thick skin don't need peotry and donn't appreciate peotry. My peotry is sloppy, I'll admit that. there is not form or meter or any of that that 'good' peotry has. But I don't think peotry can be good with *only* these things, and no heart. You can't sing the blues, if you don't know the blues- even if you do know how to play a guitare.

 

[sweetnpetite]

I rarely speak up on the poetry board, or give poetry feedback because as with this particular piece I do not regard it as poetry and it would take a really long time for me to explain why. It's a nice enough train of thought...

Perdita

Yes, I agree. It's not much of a poem. Even the stuff that I write that fits into a more conventional idea of a peom- I do not consider "peotry" I mean, is a dirty limeric peotry? Not by my standard. Is a train of thought peotry? Perhaps not. But I felt that it was the best medium available to express my thoughts, so that's what I did- I made it a peom. As a writer I was simply tryig to express myself- and that self expression *best* fit in the peotry category, even if it did not entirely fit there.

One can read a lot of really crappy peotry onlline, and perhaps I have added to that. But taking risks is how you keep your art- and your person- from stagnating. So I'm ok with it.

 

[sweetnpetite]

This is because if you remove the 'social commentary' side of it, there's simply nothing left. The 'poem' is pure social commentary and personal reflexion.

I don't quite get why a poem can't be "pure social commentary and personal reflection."

Isn't "oh Captain my Captian" social commentary and personal reflection? Isn't Song of Myself and I Hear America Singing? Isn't Emily dickenson personal reflection? Isn't Robert Frost social commentary?

I don't think my 'poem' *is* social commentary, when you read it the way I meant it. It certainly is a personal reflection, but not on society, but on personal relationships. *I* wasn't making a social commentary, that came from a misinterpritation. (Which I agree makes my 'poem' weak, at best.)

 

[champagne1982]

Getting Along With People

I have this hanging beside my terminal here at my desk. I should have read it before I hit the send button on my feedback. You're right, the last line of my message is harsh, but that wording seemed to communicate my thoughts best at that particular time. As raphy so wisely stated,

For better or worse, however, it is now here.

_____________________

Getting Along With People

1. Keep skid chains on your tongue. Say less than you think. Cultivate a soothing voice. How you say it often means more than what you say.

2. Make promises sparingly and keep them faithfully, no matter what the cost.

3. Never lose an opportunity to say a kind word to or about somebody. Praise work well done, regardless of who did it.

4. Be interested in others, their pursuits, their homes and their families. Let everyone you meet, however humble, feel you regard him as important.

5. Be cheerful. Keep the corners of your mouth turned up. Hide your worries and disappointments under a smile.

6. Keep an open mind on all debatable questions. Discuss, but don't argue. It is a mark of a superior mind to disagree and remain friendly.

7. Let your virtues speak for themselves and refuse to discuss the shortcomings of others. Discourage gossip by changing the subject.

8. Have a respect for the feelings of others. Wit and humour at the expense of a friend is never worth it.

9. Pay no attention to destructive remarks and personal attacks on you. Live so that no one will believe them. Remember, a common cause of backbiting is a dissatisfaction with oneself.

10.Don't be concerned about your "just due". Do a good turn for the sake of being helpful.
_____________________

I know I didn't follow many of those rules, I think I'll look around my desk more often, if only to remind myself that I'm not really the centre of the universe.

Thumper's father (you all remember Disney's Bambi I hope) had it right when he said, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."

 

[sweetnpetite]

Well, ok....

But don't be totally silenced by a need to be "nice"

Sometimes ya gotta say what ya think!

 

[sweetnpetite]

*Someone* (who shall remain nameless) told me that if my purpose in posting "mother's and son's" was to get them to think, then I had succeeded. I replied if the purpose of poetry is to create an emotional reaction, then I had obvioulsy succeeded. It may not be poetry, but it's got people thinking and feeling (including myself) and that is somethiing that I can feel proud of.

Lots of things need saying in life, many of them are not nice. Sometimes a good all out fight is just what you need, even with the people you love the most. I think it took a while to sort out exactly what was meant, but I'm glad that you replied to my post, even though what you had to say about it wasn't 'nice.' ANd no, I didn't get it at first- what you were trying to do, and you didn't get what I was trying to do. And if we had both just smiled at each other, and tried to be non-offensive, then we never would have come to even be close to understanding each other.

Now we have both been able to clarify what we meant, and I think that it has made us both better in the proccess. Those *are* good rules, mostly, good for getting along. But then 'getting along' isn't always the goal, or at least it's not always the only goal. Understanding is a good goal too.

Understanding and knowing bring us closer as people, help us to form connections. I think that we connected, what do you think?

 

[Angeline]

One can read a lot of really crappy peotry onlline, and perhaps I have added to that. But taking risks is how you keep your art- and your person- from stagnating. So I'm ok with it.

I agree that writers who don't take risks don't grow. And your point about not being so thick-skinned that you can't feel enough to produce poetic writing is an excellent one, imho.

It's a balancing act, isn't it? If one writes something that doesn't communicate to the reader, what's the point? On the other hand, I believe the one who really has to be satisfied with your poem is you.

And for those who think there is not much in the way of good poetry from Litsters, have a look at the writing samples in today's new poem reviews. Maybe you still won't agree, but (sloppy and/or mediocre writing notwithstanding) what constitutes a poem or a good poem is rather subjective. Art is problematic that way.

 

[raphy]

The idea that this thought could have come accross in what I was writing has gotten me thinking. I'll probably have more to say on this later, after rolling it over in my head for a while.

And thus, even through all of this - The original intent of the feedback - To start conversation between Champagne and SnP - Hopefully, that will now happen

Raph, finding the silver lining! Yay!

 

[DarlingNikki]

sweetnpetite - I replied to the I hate men thread you posed in How To, and was kind of dissapointed that you didn't respond. (although you did respond to a later post of mine.) I would have just posted again in that thread, but it's been moved to the GB along with your other I hate men thread and I really don't like the GB, so I thought I'd try again here.

To save you time, this is what I posted:
I'm surprised to see this from you, sweetnpetite, after the whole discussion of your "Mothers and Sons" poem in the Authors' Hangout. The pedestal you put women on in that poem is the "bright" side of sexism, the side that serves as a justification for those men that do believe a woman is less intelligent and capable. "You're my little princess" is just a very, very nice way of saying "Sit down and shut up, you're a woman, you can't really understand what's going on." If you hate sexism so much and are so hyperaware of it, why do you encourage the sexist and unhealthy roles of the little girl as princess to her father and rival to her mother, and the mother as queen to her son?

I don't know if you just didn't see it or thought it was stupid or what...

 

[Icingsugar]

Darling, in defense of sweet not replying, she was particulaty asked not to fuel that thread in the How To forum, because it didn't belong there.
And it even seems to be removed from there too. At least I can't find it.

That being said, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think it has become clear through the fire and brimstone and mild mudslinging of this thread that the poem in question was not about encouraging those values, but an observation of some very common family dynamics, wether good or bad.

bleep,
/Ice

 

[oggbashan]

The pedestal you put women on in that poem is the "bright" side of sexism, the side that serves as a justification for those men that do believe a woman is less intelligent and capable. "You're my little princess" is just a very, very nice way of saying "Sit down and shut up, you're a woman, you can't really understand what's going on."

I had hoped that my thread on "Og's Rules of Etiquette" would evoke that sort of response from someone. Pedestals are uncomfortable places to live on.

I started to write them on the basis that the terms "Lady" and "Gentleman" could be interchangeable. Courtesy is the art of making other people feel comfortable.

Since the thread has died, I'll leave it dead.

Og

 

[MathGirl]

Since the thread has died, I'll leave it dead.

Well, I liked your thread,Og.
MG

 

[oggbashan]

I like MG's vocabulary thread but dare I admit it?

Og

 

[DarlingNikki]

Darling, in defense of sweet not replying, she was particulaty asked not to fuel that thread in the How To forum, because it didn't belong there.
And it even seems to be removed from there too. At least I can't find it.

That being said, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think it has become clear through the fire and brimstone and mild mudslinging of this thread that the poem in question was not about encouraging those values, but an observation of some very common family dynamics, wether good or bad.

bleep,
/Ice

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear in my post. I thought I said that snp had responded to a post I made in my thread after I made the above quoted one. And I thought I said that I know her thread has been moved to the GB but that I don't want to post in there.

I know there has been a lot said in this thread, but it was not clear to me what the writer's final opinion was. Whatever it is, the poem comes across very much in favor of the values it describes, which appear to me to be part and parcel of the sexism that author claims to despise. I was curious to hear the reasoning behind what to me sounds like conflicting opinions.

But if snp feels she's already explained it and/or doesn't feel like discussing it anymore, ok fine, but I just figured I'd ask.

 

[champagne1982]

What???

I thought I said that [sic ...] had responded to a post I made in my thread after I made the above quoted one. And I thought I said that I know [...]
I know there has been a lot said [...]
[...]I just figured I'd ask.

Did you say, "I said that you said that I thought that you said I said what I'd really said what you said that I know was said what I thought you'd said I'd ask?"

 

[raphy]

My head hurts now.

 

[MathGirl]

Originally posted by oggbashan I like MG's vocabulary thread but dare I admit it?

Dear Og,
Nobody else does. Those 700 plus looks were all done by someone else.
MG