Defining Love

[Sarojaede]

Sorry for that Cathleen. But what is so scary about that, especially if you can give it? I could imagine the other way around, that people know how to receive but not know how to give.
Me? I can never get enough love and attention, but then again, I give a lot too.

I wouldn't presume to answer for Cathleen, but I understand what she means about receiving love being scarier than giving it. To some extent, you can control the love you give, but receiving it means that you have to open yourself up to the possibility of someone knowing you far too well, even if just as a friend. And knowing you, opens up vulnerability that, sometimes, you just don't want exposed, whether it's to a friend or someone who is more than just a friend.

 

[bobsgirl]

In high school and college, when the talk turned to the subject of men, we always used to laugh about the fact that if a guy was really hot and really nice, and he really liked you, you automatically assumed he had some deeply hidden character flaw. He likes me?? What's wrong with him? We laughed but it's all too true for some of us.

Receiving love is difficult because it's so at odds with how we see ourselves, as very undeserving of love and acceptance. This is an internal dialogue that plays over and over in my brain. I know I've denied others the pleasure of giving because it was just damn uncomfortable to receive.

 

[M's girl]

I wouldn't presume to answer for Cathleen, but I understand what she means about receiving love being scarier than giving it. To some extent, you can control the love you give, but receiving it means that you have to open yourself up to the possibility of someone knowing you far too well, even if just as a friend. And knowing you, opens up vulnerability that, sometimes, you just don't want exposed, whether it's to a friend or someone who is more than just a friend.

I'm still confused. I can only understand attention and such being too much if it's from people you don't care for. As an example I will mention my neigbour, who considered herself to be my best friend from the day we moved into this house; I had never even met her before. She was on my doorstep 24/7 and of course also always asking for "things"... That kind of attention scares me and is something I try to avoid, but I guess we all do.

When I consider people to be my close friends I cannot imagine (or I have never experienced that) that they are too much. That I receive too much attention or (friendly) love. It must be that in my life everything is pretty balanced there then? I don't know.

As for lovers? Of course you can receive too much love, but I call that obsessing or stalking. If someone is overly jealous, wants to know where you are 24/7, can't do things without you.... that's not right. That's not love either: that is called obsession. On the other hand: if M calls me because he wants to hear my voice, know what I'm doing and if I'm having fun or wants to know what time I will be home to decide if he waits up for me or not...., I don't care where I am, what time it is and with who I am at that moment. If it's inconvenient (in meeting or whatever) I will not answer the phone and call back when I can. But I will never feel like he is checking up on me. I can give a few other examples, but you get the point. One more maybe: M can touch me, kiss me, hug me whenever he wants and also indicate he wants sex whenever he wants. As long as he knows when it is appropriate (when we're in a fight it's obviously not, and he can't fuck me in the restaurant ). I do believe (strongly) that those are the sort of 'rights' of a loving relationship, especially when it's monogamous and you both expect that you only get this from one another...

And presents and acts of kindness and consideration? Anything he wants to do or give to show me he loves me, cares for me and appreciates me is fine. I welcome it. The flowers, the dinner he prepares for me or restaurant he takes me to unexpectedly. The new CD from my fav artist or new magazine I always read, but did not pick up yet. When he drives my car through the carwash or lies me down for a nice backrub... it's all good. I want that. I need that from a relationship. I also give it back, big time!

Am I weird then?

 

[M's girl]

In high school and college, when the talk turned to the subject of men, we always used to laugh about the fact that if a guy was really hot and really nice, and he really liked you, you automatically assumed he had some deeply hidden character flaw. He likes me?? What's wrong with him? We laughed but it's all too true for some of us.

Receiving love is difficult because it's so at odds with how we see ourselves, as very undeserving of love and acceptance. This is an internal dialogue that plays over and over in my brain. I know I've denied others the pleasure of giving because it was just damn uncomfortable to receive.

Bobsgirl, honey, that's terrible! Why? You are such a likeable person, who would not want to love/like you? I could very well imagine being your friend from what I know from here and another place (you know what I mean). Of course I can't change how you feel, but I like you a lot and would have a lot to give, as a friend, to you...

Is it insecurity then? Because I am insecure about the way I look sometimes. But I know that I am kind, intelligent and a nice person overall (just like you). I also know that I am capable of giving a lot of love. I give it in all sort of ways. I gladly take it back to, and from some people I even NEED it!

 

[Flyin_Free]

Wow what a great thread.

Actually I can completely relate to this

It is not in the giving, it is the return that scares me. I give love very well, I am lousy at receiving it. There are even times I have trouble receiving friendship love. It's not in the giving at all, it's the receiving. Certainly it is a sad and humongous ability to lack.

and this

Receiving love is difficult because it's so at odds with how we see ourselves, as very undeserving of love and acceptance. This is an internal dialogue that plays over and over in my brain. I know I've denied others the pleasure of giving because it was just damn uncomfortable to receive.

It's easy for me to feel and care for somebody else (even just friendship) but, for me anyway, it's really hard to accept that caring back. Or maybe not the actual caring, but the concept that they DO care. I'm sure it's a self image thing and it's one that I'm really struggling to overcome.

 

[bobsgirl]

It's easy for me to feel and care for somebody else (even just friendship) but, for me anyway, it's really hard to accept that caring back. Or maybe not the actual caring, but the concept that they DO care. I'm sure it's a self image thing and it's one that I'm really struggling to overcome.

I agree. We crave the very thing we feel we don't have a right to accept. How's that for backasswards?

 

[bobsgirl]

Bobsgirl, honey, that's terrible! Why? You are such a likeable person, who would not want to love/like you? I could very well imagine being your friend from what I know from here and another place (you know what I mean). Of course I can't change how you feel, but I like you a lot and would have a lot to give, as a friend, to you...

Is it insecurity then? Because I am insecure about the way I look sometimes. But I know that I am kind, intelligent and a nice person overall (just like you). I also know that I am capable of giving a lot of love. I give it in all sort of ways. I gladly take it back to, and from some people I even NEED it!

{{{{{MG}}}}}

Thank you for those lovely sentiments.

I know, intellectually, I accept that I do have good qualities. But when it's just me, and I'm looking in the mirror (metaphorically speaking), I really do have trouble believing it.

 

[Cathleen]

Wow what a great thread.

Actually I can completely relate to this

and this


It's easy for me to feel and care for somebody else (even just friendship) but, for me anyway, it's really hard to accept that caring back. Or maybe not the actual caring, but the concept that they DO care. I'm sure it's a self image thing and it's one that I'm really struggling to overcome.

I'm glad you found us Flyin and that you've shared some thoughts. Please feel free to add thoughts/ideas and/or pose questions.

 

[Flyin_Free]

I agree. We crave the very thing we feel we don't have a right to accept. How's that for backasswards?

It IS isn't it.

I know, intellectually, I accept that I do have good qualities. But when it's just me, and I'm looking in the mirror (metaphorically speaking), I really do have trouble believing it.

Wow, that is soo me! It's like there's two levels of "knowing". Logically I know that I have good qualities...but really feeling or acknowledging it sometimes is so hard.

I'm glad you found us Flyin and that you've shared some thoughts. Please feel free to add thoughts/ideas and/or pose questions.

Thank you for the welcome. I'm really glad I found this thread too.

 

[Cathleen]

Sorry for that Cathleen. But what is so scary about that, especially if you can give it? I could imagine the other way around, that people know how to receive but not know how to give.
Me? I can never get enough love and attention, but then again, I give a lot too.

I wouldn't presume to answer for Cathleen, but I understand what she means about receiving love being scarier than giving it. To some extent, you can control the love you give, but receiving it means that you have to open yourself up to the possibility of someone knowing you far too well, even if just as a friend. And knowing you, opens up vulnerability that, sometimes, you just don't want exposed, whether it's to a friend or someone who is more than just a friend.

I'm still confused. I can only understand attention and such being too much if it's from people you don't care for. As an example I will mention my neigbour, who considered herself to be my best friend from the day we moved into this house; I had never even met her before. She was on my doorstep 24/7 and of course also always asking for "things"... That kind of attention scares me and is something I try to avoid, but I guess we all do.

When I consider people to be my close friends I cannot imagine (or I have never experienced that) that they are too much. That I receive too much attention or (friendly) love. It must be that in my life everything is pretty balanced there then? I don't know.

As for lovers? Of course you can receive too much love, but I call that obsessing or stalking. If someone is overly jealous, wants to know where you are 24/7, can't do things without you.... that's not right. That's not love either: that is called obsession. On the other hand: if M calls me because he wants to hear my voice, know what I'm doing and if I'm having fun or wants to know what time I will be home to decide if he waits up for me or not...., I don't care where I am, what time it is and with who I am at that moment. If it's inconvenient (in meeting or whatever) I will not answer the phone and call back when I can. But I will never feel like he is checking up on me. I can give a few other examples, but you get the point. One more maybe: M can touch me, kiss me, hug me whenever he wants and also indicate he wants sex whenever he wants. As long as he knows when it is appropriate (when we're in a fight it's obviously not, and he can't fuck me in the restaurant ). I do believe (strongly) that those are the sort of 'rights' of a loving relationship, especially when it's monogamous and you both expect that you only get this from one another...

And presents and acts of kindness and consideration? Anything he wants to do or give to show me he loves me, cares for me and appreciates me is fine. I welcome it. The flowers, the dinner he prepares for me or restaurant he takes me to unexpectedly. The new CD from my fav artist or new magazine I always read, but did not pick up yet. When he drives my car through the carwash or lies me down for a nice backrub... it's all good. I want that. I need that from a relationship. I also give it back, big time!

Am I weird then?

No, of course you are not weird M's girl! Sarojaede's comment mentions a few words that hit home for me. Maybe the following might help (it's in someone's sig line here). I can't remember the exact wording but ...

When you give someone your heart, you give them the power to destroy it but you're trusting they won't.

I wish I could remember it correctly, if I find it I will certainly post it. But in effect to allow someone to have your heart you are opening yourself up to the most intimate vulnerablity I can imagine. I once told someone close to me I imagined it to be like being surgerically opened from the neck down -- and then being spread even wider. Graphic huh? My friend winced. I'm glad to say I don't see it quite that way anymore but honestly, my views haven't changed enough and I still work on it, probably always will.

I've read what you've said and your view is wonderful, but if you don't mind I'll take another shot at explaining what I mean about receiving love.

My fear has nothing to do with giving. As I said, that's easy. Giving is like breathing to me, it just happens. I am a believer -- no, I KNOW that in giving it's the giver that receives more. Years ago, when my mother was dying, we had a lot of wonderful conversations, one of my favorites was about giving and receiving. She was a giver too. The lesson she taught me was without someone to receive my gift, there was no gift to give. She asked me how I felt when I was able to help her and give to her. Of course I said it felt wonderful. I mean what nicer feeling can there be than to give and help another person?

The lesson was simply stated, but it's not simple to do. She said, someone has to have the strength and Grace to receive the gift offered. It is simple on paper, if you won't accept my gift then I cannot give it.

Now, why wouldn't I want to receive love? There are some amazing (and difficult IMO) things that take place. Allowing love in means I have to expose all my hurts, insecurities, faults and ickiness (and of course the good stuff too). That is really tough. While I reveal those things I have to trust you to not use them to hurt me. On top of all that, I have to trust myself, use my gut instinct. It's like giving someone the keys to the kingdom, allowing them to move in and then trusting, hoping, having faith they will not tear the place apart.

So, it isn't giving that poses the problem at all. It is about being brave enough to let someone give to me.

 

[Cathleen]

Wow, that is soo me! It's like there's two levels of "knowing". Logically I know that I have good qualities...but really feeling or acknowledging it sometimes is so hard.

The longest journey in the world is the twelve inches from our head to our heart/soul/spirit.

Intellectually knowing is far easier than emotionally knowing, feeling and accepting. Being human isn't for the faint of heart at all.

It is nice to have you joining in the conversation, I learn a lot from many viewpoints.

 

[wicked woman]

The longest journey in the world is the twelve inches from our head to our heart/soul/spirit.

Intellectually knowing is far easier than emotionally knowing, feeling and accepting. Being human isn't for the faint of heart at all.

Wise words Cate. Took me many, many years to bridge those 12 inches again...but, even through the heartache, I've never regretted taking that journey again.

 

[Sarojaede]

On top of all that, I have to trust myself, use my gut instinct.

I'm short on the time to be able to reply to all of this, but I need to say something about this part.

I think, sometimes, this is the hardest part--trusting yourself, trusting your instinct, trusting your ability to read people. It's especially difficult for some of us who have had the belief in our gut instinct shredded before.

 

[Flyin_Free]

I think, sometimes, this is the hardest part--trusting yourself, trusting your instinct, trusting your ability to read people. It's especially difficult for some of us who have had the belief in our gut instinct shredded before.

Ahh good point. It's hard to trust again isn't it?

I've been sitting here trying to define what love is to me...and I keep typing and hitting delete. Love is hard to define isn't it. Especially being “in love”. It’s so much more than just being willing to do anything for that person, it’s a connection of some sort. I have people in my life that I love and I’d do anything for but I’m not In Love with them. "In Love" or romantic love is somehow different. I think even "In Love" can have different levels to it too. When I was in HS I was "In Love" with my HS sweetheart. I might have been young, but my heart thought I was in love. When I met my ex I was "In Love" too, but it was a different love than with my HS boyfriend. So therefore In Love has to have different levels right?

And I think Sarojaed is right, once you've had your heart shredded it's really hard to let yourself go there again. I think all of our previous experiences with love mold us. Depending on what happens to our hearts we put up walls and it's hard for us to let the next person break through those walls.

 

[redneckgirl]

I've had bad experiences with men all my life. Therefore, it was really hard for me to trust. I still have trouble trusting myself, but I do trust my husband, not fully, but on most part.

 

[Cathleen]

Ahh good point. It's hard to trust again isn't it?

I've been sitting here trying to define what love is to me...and I keep typing and hitting delete. Love is hard to define isn't it. Especially being “in love”. It’s so much more than just being willing to do anything for that person, it’s a connection of some sort. I have people in my life that I love and I’d do anything for but I’m not In Love with them. "In Love" or romantic love is somehow different. I think even "In Love" can have different levels to it too. When I was in HS I was "In Love" with my HS sweetheart. I might have been young, but my heart thought I was in love. When I met my ex I was "In Love" too, but it was a different love than with my HS boyfriend. So therefore In Love has to have different levels right?

And I think Sarojaed is right, once you've had your heart shredded it's really hard to let yourself go there again. I think all of our previous experiences with love mold us. Depending on what happens to our hearts we put up walls and it's hard for us to let the next person break through those walls.

FF, love is damn near impossible to define -- probably why I like to try!

I emphasised the statement you made about levels of ''in love,'' I totally agree. Our life has so many facets, and it seems it never stops (yippy ) that we evolve into 'how much' we can absorb the emotions of a human life.

I just keep thinking about a child asking his/her mother "How can you love me and my little brother/sister?" She replys that love grows. I never 'got that' until my siblings had kids and it was so clear after number two arrived.

I sometimes think I'm like a 'Doubting Thomas' when it comes to love...well receiving love. I can give it, albeit, more caution is used now -- as Sarojaede pointed out, that trust and belief in my gut is more sensitive now. I can relate to redneckgirl about the idea of partial trust. I'm not sure I can allow myself to give complete trust to another. As I typed that I felt a sensation inside, sort of like my internal 'circle of wagons' that 'protect' me let out a sigh that they'll never be 'off duty'... it's a sad feeling.

The key (or problem) is how do I find the right balance of caution and open-ness?

 

[Cathleen]

(Pardon me for not taking better care of the thread.)

I have a question for you all, one of a million. It's really a simple one.

How do you trust love? ​

 

[Phaedre]

How do you trust love? ​

I really don't know. Perhaps at some point it just becomes so much a part of ourself that it becomes possible? Like the opening and closing of a door where eventually you forget to close it.

 

[midwestyankee]

How do you trust love?

Cathleen, I'm not quite sure how you mean this. Could you elucidate for this dense old fart?

 

[bobsgirl]

(Pardon me for not taking better care of the thread.)

I have a question for you all, one of a million. It's really a simple one.

How do you trust love? ​

This is why I don't believe in (romantic) love at first sight. Intense attraction, yes. But love, true love, grows over time as two people get to know each other. At some point though, I think you do just have to take that leap of faith, and hope that you've placed your heart in the hands of someone who will treat it gently.

At this point in my life I've learned that love doesn't come with a lifetime warranty.

 

[Cathleen]

I really don't know. Perhaps at some point it just becomes so much a part of ourself that it becomes possible? Like the opening and closing of a door where eventually you forget to close it.

Hi Phaedre, welcome to Lit.

I think your analogy of the door is good. I think the suspicious part of me can't relax for that eventuality to settle inside.

This is why I don't believe in (romantic) love at first sight. Intense attraction, yes. But love, true love, grows over time as two people get to know each other. At some point though, I think you do just have to take that leap of faith, and hope that you've placed your heart in the hands of someone who will treat it gently.

At this point in my life I've learned that love doesn't come with a lifetime warranty.

I agree about 'love at first sight' or given the Internet Age, IM/Phone/Cyber/Post at first sight too.

Leaping huh? Can I just sort of slide on my belly down that slope, gripping any rock or tree limb to hold on for dear life?

Cathleen, I'm not quite sure how you mean this. Could you elucidate for this dense old fart?

Well, Yank, you are most certainly not dense, the rest you can offer examples or not.

What I'm trying to say is touched on by Phaedre and bg. I suppose what I mean is when someone tells you they love you and shows it with their behaviors, when can I trust it's true? As I write this I'm shaking my head saying what a stupid question. It's different for everyone obviously and maybe believing is directly related to willingness. When do you stop looking for the catch or small print?

I don't think it's a big surprise that those blocks have different shapes, depths, looks etc that are created by the past.

 

[wicked woman]

Well, Yank, you are most certainly not dense, the rest you can offer examples or not.

What I'm trying to say is touched on by Phaedre and bg. I suppose what I mean is when someone tells you they love you and shows it with their behaviors, when can I trust it's true? As I write this I'm shaking my head saying what a stupid question. It's different for everyone obviously and maybe believing is directly related to willingness. When do you stop looking for the catch or small print?

I don't think it's a big surprise that those blocks have different shapes, depths, looks etc that are created by the past.

In reading the responses to your last question and your clarification of the question above Cate, what strikes me is that it's not necessarily a question of past experience. People can have a similar experience (e.g. a relationship that ends and breaks their heart) and yet one will take a long time to deal with this...in the meantime usually forsaking all others during the duration...while the other will fairly quickly get back in the game...searching for love, hoping to find it again.

While experience at having your heart broken might make it a bit easier to handle that someone's first heartbreak, I'm not sure it determines a person's response. I think some people are more positive...more get on the horse right away than others. It's that personality trait that decides your reaction.

 

[midwestyankee]

Thanks for the clarification, Cate. Unfortunately, I just don't have an answer. I guess that the more this happens to you, the more you may learn about hearing your heart accurately when it whispers, "I think it's ok now."

 

[midwestyankee]

I'm not quite sure why I came back here today, though sadness over the madness at the Boston Marathon might have something to do with it. In the end, if I can't believe that love will heal the world, I'm not sure what I can believe in.

And now I think I'm in a better place to answer Cate's last question. It's not love that we have to learn to trust. It's our selves that we question, and our partners. We might question whether a partner sincerely means that he or she loves us, but we might also question whether we can accept love with an open heart.

I read an interesting article recently (sorry, can't find the link at the moment) that suggested something fascinating: we marry in order to learn how to love our partner. I think there's some real truth to that. What matters most early in a committed relationship is the commitment to learn how to love one another. That's what we need to learn to trust: the commitment to learn how to love one another.

 

[NightL]

That's what we need to learn to trust: the commitment to learn how to love one another.

I hope that does not take a back seat again