Difference between subs and slaves

[graceanne]

What's the difference between a sub and slave depends on who you ask.

For me a slave has little or no power over anything. A sub does - I have equal control over anything regarding the kids (mostly cause i'm the one with child raising experience). I also have safety 'rules' around our D/s exchange. Like if I think he's throwing a temper tantrum he is not allowed to punish me for 24 hours. If, after 24 hours, he still thinks he's in the right and I'm in the wrong, then he can. Or if he starts verbally abusing me, I get to defend myself as I see fit. (In other words he doesn't get to pick a fight with me, and then be pissed when it works.)

 

[the captians wench]

It's funny that this came up when it did as Jounar and I sort of were discussing this and realized that we draw the line in different places.

It really got me to thinking where do I draw that line. Then it hit me, when we are playful and teasing and things are very light hearted I don't keep a slave head. When I'm in trouble and things get serious, my thought process changes and I slip into slave mode. I think this is part of why that line is so blurry for me. We've agreed that, for us, a slave/master relationship needs to have a lot less distance for it to work. Idealy a 24/7 situation.

but I'm still wondering why my mind switches gears so much in those two situations. Seems interesting to me that I see submission as light and playful and slavery as serious shit.

 

[rida]

I had to think about it not too long ago when talking with someone outside of Lit.

So this is my personal definition. Ultimately it came down to the fact, for me, that you can only be a slave in a 24/7 TPE arrangement. To that I also add that you can only be owned if you are a slave. Now the 24/7 does not necessarily mean you live together, but that you are 24/7 available to your Master.

I think that MIS expressed it very well when she said that the difference is that as a submissive Sir was one of the priority and as a Master he is THE priority. At all times.

You can still have a slave mind set and be a slave during the scene or in the bedroom (no limits and what not), but the fact that it is limited in time &/or space makes you not a slave.

I do not find there is any inherited hierarchy of value between being a submissive or a slave. It is relate to different personalities, different needs, and at times to different life circumstances that do not permit one to be a slave.

 

[EmpressFi]

I think this is one of the "downsides" (for lack of a better word) of BDSM. There are too many labels and too many people trying to fit perfectly in each label. I, for one, am guilty of this.

I think BDSM at its core and what makes it great is all about the feelings and not about the labels. It's something that can't be explained or even labeled.

It's like if I tried to explain to someone I am in a D/s relationship all they will understand are the labels. They won't get the why. Only people in the lifestyle understand the why.

I sometimes wonder, is my SO my slave or more my sub? In the end it shouldn't matter. Because she is Mine. And that is the most important thing.

I agree with this so much. Master would get so frustrated with me because I'd read on here about what a sub should be or what a slave would be and then I'd go to him full of worry that I wasnt doing it right. Then he told me something that I've been trying to follow... although I do forget sometimes and fall back into the pattern of doubt.

What he told me is that it doesnt matter.

It doesnt matter that to some, I'm a bottom, and to some, I'm a submissive, all that matters, all that should matter is that he calls me slave. He considers me his slave, an I know I am his. Being "his" is the only "label" I need. I am whatever HE says I am. I am his slave.

 

[Homburg]

It's funny that this came up when it did as Jounar and I sort of were discussing this and realized that we draw the line in different places.

It really got me to thinking where do I draw that line. Then it hit me, when we are playful and teasing and things are very light hearted I don't keep a slave head. When I'm in trouble and things get serious, my thought process changes and I slip into slave mode. I think this is part of why that line is so blurry for me. We've agreed that, for us, a slave/master relationship needs to have a lot less distance for it to work. Idealy a 24/7 situation.

but I'm still wondering why my mind switches gears so much in those two situations. Seems interesting to me that I see submission as light and playful and slavery as serious shit.

Slavery can be light and playful as well. It is just serious shit a bit more often. Honestly, most of the slaves I know are more playful and less serious than the majority of submissives I know. Submissives take themselves seriously, while slaves take Master seriously and don't worry quite so much about themselves. I've been told more than once that it is freeing.

----

I had to think about it not too long ago when talking with someone outside of Lit.

So this is my personal definition. Ultimately it came down to the fact, for me, that you can only be a slave in a 24/7 TPE arrangement. To that I also add that you can only be owned if you are a slave. Now the 24/7 does not necessarily mean you live together, but that you are 24/7 available to your Master.

I think that MIS expressed it very well when she said that the difference is that as a submissive Sir was one of the priority and as a Master he is THE priority. At all times.

You can still have a slave mind set and be a slave during the scene or in the bedroom (no limits and what not), but the fact that it is limited in time &/or space makes you not a slave.

I do not find there is any inherited hierarchy of value between being a submissive or a slave. It is relate to different personalities, different needs, and at times to different life circumstances that do not permit one to be a slave.

This post is spot on.

 

[LadyC]

Some times, I will refer to Billy-boy as my sub and other (perhaps most of the time) I refer to him as my minion. Being quite new to my role as a Dominatrix I never gave it much thought. All I do think about is the pleasure I derive from my position and how I might intensify those lovely pleasures.

 

[ecstaticsub]

I had to think about it not too long ago when talking with someone outside of Lit.

So this is my personal definition. Ultimately it came down to the fact, for me, that you can only be a slave in a 24/7 TPE arrangement. To that I also add that you can only be owned if you are a slave. Now the 24/7 does not necessarily mean you live together, but that you are 24/7 available to your Master.

I think that MIS expressed it very well when she said that the difference is that as a submissive Sir was one of the priority and as a Master he is THE priority. At all times.

You can still have a slave mind set and be a slave during the scene or in the bedroom (no limits and what not), but the fact that it is limited in time &/or space makes you not a slave.

I do not find there is any inherited hierarchy of value between being a submissive or a slave. It is relate to different personalities, different needs, and at times to different life circumstances that do not permit one to be a slave.

I agree with this except I consider myself a owned submissive. For us the fact that he considers me his property makes me owned. If I was a unowned submissive than it would be more like a bottom in a committed relationship. Hmmm...that's not quite right either. **ponders for a minute**

Once again , I suppose it goes back to mindset. I am owned because my body belong to him. I can not give away what does not belong to me. I can not allow someone to touch, kiss, fondle, fuck etc what does not belong to me. My body and mind belong to him, so he decides who is allowed to fuck me and who isn't. Along with a multitude of other decisions.

(Plus the whole concept of being owned gets me very wet )

I am not a slave. I don't think it is possible for someone who is married to someone other than their PYL to be a slave. Also for me personally, especially in this relationship I am uncomfortable with the word "slave". I could never place it on any relationship of mine no matter what the dynamics were.

Of course, all the above is my own personal opinion about my own person relationship.

 

[the captians wench]

Slavery can be light and playful as well. It is just serious shit a bit more often. Honestly, most of the slaves I know are more playful and less serious than the majority of submissives I know. Submissives take themselves seriously, while slaves take Master seriously and don't worry quite so much about themselves. I've been told more than once that it is freeing.

.

I realize this, but it's just how my brain computes.

Most of the time, things are light and playful and I think of myself and he will call me his "subbie". Everything is "yes love" or "no love".

When things get a serious tone it's "no sir" and "yes sir" and I've even been known to slip into third person speak at these times. This is what I call my slave head. A place where I loose my since of self, and insted think only about what he's saying and how he wants me to react.

It's just how my mind wonders in the midst of our interactions.

I agree with this except I consider myself a owned submissive. For us the fact that he considers me his property makes me owned. If I was a unowned submissive than it would be more like a bottom in a committed relationship. Hmmm...that's not quite right either. **ponders for a minute**

Once again , I suppose it goes back to mindset. I am owned because my body belong to him. I can not give away what does not belong to me. I can not allow someone to touch, kiss, fondle, fuck etc what does not belong to me. My body and mind belong to him, so he decides who is allowed to fuck me and who isn't. Along with a multitude of other decisions.

(Plus the whole concept of being owned gets me very wet )

I am not a slave. I don't think it is possible for someone who is married to someone other than their PYL to be a slave. Also for me personally, especially in this relationship I am uncomfortable with the word "slave". I could never place it on any relationship of mine no matter what the dynamics were.

Of course, all the above is my own personal opinion about my own person relationship.

This fits for me as well, in that he thinks of me as his owned submissive. I am his property to do with as he sees fit, but because I am a submissive and not a slave, he's deemed that some of the more degrading acts he would like to persue are not apropriate.

It's interesting to peak into his mind and see where he draws the line. What's even more interesting is that that line is just a blurry for him as it is for me sometimes.

Perhaps insted of worrying so much what is slave behavior and what is submissive behavior, we should focas more on the progress of my "training" and our relationship. Where we want the goal to be set, and how close we are to it, rather than trying to fit it to some deffinition that neither one of us are sure what it really is.

 

[gingermango]

I don't think it is possible for someone who is married to someone other than their PYL to be a slave.

I think that is a workable limit on the term for me as well. I am a slave to my Goddess/wife, but I have been a submissive (noun) to others in the past, due to my submissive (adjective) nature. In fact, we are supposed to play with another femdom couple this weekend where I will be one of the submissives to be played with, but even when the other Domme is playing with me, I will still only be the slave of my Goddess/wife.

Slight aside: too often we get caught up in a simplistic label for a thing rather than just appreciating the thing itself in all its complexity.

 

[clearshooter]

I read this thread with interest, and thought I would give my opinion from the Dominant/Master side of the bathroom door.

The label is not the important thing to focus on, who or what you are is determined from within.

Someone not in the lifestyle would be shocked to know that a man or a woman would identify themselves as a submissive or slave. They don't understand that they derive pleasure and satisfaction in living this way.

I own carolyn (sinn0cent1) completely, she understands this, and made a conscious choice to live this way. After she made that single choice, labels were not needed, she fits her role, and finds her place easily (typically at my feet!) because of who she is within. I do not want a doormat, or a mindless dolt. What I have is a vibrant woman that gets all her pleasure from the pleasure she provides me. I make the maority of decisions regarding her dress, food, etc, but she also deals with her children in an authoritative way that the label MOTHER should.

My initial attraction to carolyn was I knew that she had submissive/slave tendencies, what made me truly love her is who she is, creative, smart, obedient, eager to learn, and beautiful. (it didn't hurt that she wasn't afraid of snakes either!) If I stifled any of these attributes, she would not be who I chose to have submit to me, which is just as much a conscious choice as submitting.

In accepting carolyn as my property (and sorry, I do not subscribe to the gift of submiision theory) I accept the enormous responsibility of the trust she has given to me. The fact that she is so willing to blindly give of herself, it is my mandate to keep her safe. The goals of who you identify in your own relationship should be far more important than the label.

Don't get stuck on trying to put a label on who or what you are, it's like putting a round peg in a square hole. Celebrate the feelings you get, either from obeying the one you love, or being the obeyed!

"Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges!"
Alfonso Bedoya in The Treasure of the Sierra Madre

Well said!

I might add that trust is no small thing.

 

[nh23]

I agree with this except I consider myself a owned submissive. For us the fact that he considers me his property makes me owned. If I was a unowned submissive than it would be more like a bottom in a committed relationship. Hmmm...that's not quite right either. **ponders for a minute**

Once again , I suppose it goes back to mindset. I am owned because my body belong to him. I can not give away what does not belong to me. I can not allow someone to touch, kiss, fondle, fuck etc what does not belong to me. My body and mind belong to him, so he decides who is allowed to fuck me and who isn't. Along with a multitude of other decisions.

(Plus the whole concept of being owned gets me very wet )

I am not a slave. I don't think it is possible for someone who is married to someone other than their PYL to be a slave. Also for me personally, especially in this relationship I am uncomfortable with the word "slave". I could never place it on any relationship of mine no matter what the dynamics were.

Of course, all the above is my own personal opinion about my own person relationship.

I pretty much felt the same way. Which is probably another reason I never identified as a slave when I was still with my husband. Now that I'm in a 24/7 TPE relationship..well..lol Now I have to call a spade a spade.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Like others, I could not have considered myself a slave while we were LDR. I was his sub and he was my Sir. We were new to the lifestyle and therefore it would have been weird to call him 'Master' when he was still in the process of learning how to dominate me safely and effectively. Similarly, submission was a learning curve for me. Our progression to 24/7 TPE was a gradual one. I'm glad we took the approach we did because I am completely secure in my role of slave.

I tend to view a 'sub' as someone who either does not submit exclusively to one other (or only submits to others on the direction of a PYL who has dictatorial authority) and who retains limits and caveats on their submission. It also describes those who only submit sexually and prefer to be equals outside the bedroom. Online relationships without any real life contact seem odd to me but many claim to be 'slave' to a PYL they've never met face to face.

Slavery to me suggests a long term commitment to one PYL who holds all the power within the relationship. There are no sexual limits imposed by a slave and safewords are often discarded. Personally, I have my safeword purely for medical reasons.

I would write more but RL calls me. I may expand on my thoughts later.

 

[BiBunny]

Back in the day when I wore a collar, I just circumvented the whole discussion by calling myself a pet.

 

[madetotakeit]

I agree that the essential difference is time and retaining certain rights. To me being a slave would include 24/7 TPE. While I could devote myself to just one man (truthfully that is in my nature) I could not accede all rights on a constant basis. I'm much too independent and stubborn. A slave can be submissive. A submissive can be slave-like for a period of time. They are related to a great degree but vary in extent. The differences do not extend however to the devotion or commitment felt or expressed.

 

[Jack_Slade]

Back in the day when I wore a collar, I just circumvented the whole discussion by calling myself a pet.

That might be the best answer yet

One question for the slaves, Do you feel that you still need a "safeword" or do you feel that your Master knows you well enough to go without one?

 

[gingermango]

Do you feel that you still need a "safeword" or do you feel that your Master knows you well enough to go without one?

I have one by default, for a number of reasons. First, my Goddess knows me better than anyone else but she also likes to inflict pain. A LOT of pain. Sometimes I can take it and sometimes I cannot. Like most people my own mood and tolerance for pain can vary from day to day. If I am blindfolded and she cannot read my eyes, or if I am restrained in a way that prevents enough movement for her to read, she needs to know when I've had enough.

Also, we occasionally play with other dominants who don't know me as well as she does. Staying in the habit of using a safeword makes sure that when I'm deep in sub-space I can always remember to use it if necessary without having to stop for a second and "surface" enough to remember where I am and who's using me. It also serves as a reminder for her to come check on me if she's with another submissive and hears me use it.

 

[LadyC]

Back in the day when I wore a collar, I just circumvented the whole discussion by calling myself a pet.

Ideal....though it could mean any type of animal, to me it feels like a kitten or some other cuddly, perhaps feminine creature; I might consider a male as a curr or mongrel.

 

[rida]

I agree with this except I consider myself a owned submissive. For us the fact that he considers me his property makes me owned. If I was a unowned submissive than it would be more like a bottom in a committed relationship. Hmmm...that's not quite right either. **ponders for a minute**

Once again , I suppose it goes back to mindset. I am owned because my body belong to him. I can not give away what does not belong to me. I can not allow someone to touch, kiss, fondle, fuck etc what does not belong to me. My body and mind belong to him, so he decides who is allowed to fuck me and who isn't. Along with a multitude of other decisions.

(Plus the whole concept of being owned gets me very wet )

I am not a slave. I don't think it is possible for someone who is married to someone other than their PYL to be a slave. Also for me personally, especially in this relationship I am uncomfortable with the word "slave". I could never place it on any relationship of mine no matter what the dynamics were.

Of course, all the above is my own personal opinion about my own person relationship.

Honestly I've been struggling with the "owned" vs "unowned" concept vis the "slave" concept, and at the end settled for the "slave" = "owned submissive" definition.

I can see its limits and flaws, like with any definition and I understand what you mean by you being an "owned submissive", since he makes decisions regarding your body, your body is indeed his property. In that sense, Hubby has pretty much the last word on what I do with my body, but he is does not own me. And if you were to look at my life, you'd see that he is the center of almost everything I do, always in my mind, and yet I am not his slave.

Ultimately what matters is that both the pyl and PYL agree on their definition and terms and on what work for their specific relationship.

 

[Homburg]

I could not accede all rights on a constant basis. I'm much too independent and stubborn.

That is actively funny to me. If you'd met the slaves I've met, and damned good slaves they were, you would never even think to say that you were too stubborn and independent to be a slave. I know slaves that make mules look compromising, and don't need anyone to hold their hand. They are still slaves.

The differences do not extend however to the devotion or commitment felt or expressed.

I completely disagree. Again, I am going by the slaves I own, and the slaves I have had the pleasure of knowing. Nothing in the world approaches the devotion of a good slave for his or her owner, aside from perhaps the devotion shown by a truly good dog. And dog owners will understand why I say that, as a truly good dog will blow you away with devotion. Do a google for Hachiko.

If someone has limits, and those limits are not the same as their PYL's, they are not as commited as someone who decides that he or she will have only those limits that their owner allows for them. Giving up your limits is deep trust and commitment. Same with giving up your safeword.

And, no, this is not dick-waving, and this is not saying that slaves are better than submissives. Just saying that a TPE is a much more serious commitment than a basic submission.

----

That might be the best answer yet

One question for the slaves, Do you feel that you still need a "safeword" or do you feel that your Master knows you well enough to go without one?

Neither of my girls have a safeword. Both voluntarily gave their safeword up, expressing the fact that they trust me to know when they have had to much. in at least one case, MIS wished bitterly for a safeword as she thought she'd reached her limit with a single-tail, and, when I continued, realised that she hadn't. She thanked me later for continuing, as the part that came after that point was truly remarkable for her.

 

[JMohegan]

I agree that the essential difference is time and retaining certain rights. To me being a slave would include 24/7 TPE. While I could devote myself to just one man (truthfully that is in my nature) I could not accede all rights on a constant basis. I'm much too independent and stubborn. A slave can be submissive. A submissive can be slave-like for a period of time. They are related to a great degree but vary in extent. The differences do not extend however to the devotion or commitment felt or expressed.

This is a great post.

The only thing I would add would be to note that on the bell curve of human nature, those who appreciate a sustained, 24/7 M/s arrangement do exist, but they are really far out on one end.

 

[JMohegan]

I completely disagree. Again, I am going by the slaves I own, and the slaves I have had the pleasure of knowing. Nothing in the world approaches the devotion of a good slave for his or her owner, aside from perhaps the devotion shown by a truly good dog. And dog owners will understand why I say that, as a truly good dog will blow you away with devotion. Do a google for Hachiko.

If someone has limits, and those limits are not the same as their PYL's, they are not as commited as someone who decides that he or she will have only those limits that their owner allows for them. Giving up your limits is deep trust and commitment. Same with giving up your safeword.

And, no, this is not dick-waving, and this is not saying that slaves are better than submissives. Just saying that a TPE is a much more serious commitment than a basic submission.

"My bitch is more devoted than your bitch" sure looks like dick-waving to me.

Until the day that god almighty shows up, to peek into the hearts and souls of all humanity and rank everyone accordingly, I call massive bullshit on the idea that either devotion or commitment can be ranked by flavor of relationship, whether M/s, D/s, or mainstream.


For some people, "serious commitment" involves more than what goes in the bedroom or play session.

For some people, "serious commitment" involves devotion and compromise and sacrifice.... in areas both exciting and mundane. The day in/day out co-existence of a sustained life partnership, dealing with sickness and health, budgets and bank accounts, troubles and triumphs, and myriad interactions with family, friends, and careers.

For some people, the measures of devotion and "serious commitment" are taken not in a few titillating months.... but over the course of many years.

 

[Homburg]

"My bitch is more devoted than your bitch" sure looks like dick-waving to me.

I won't call mine more devoted than anyone else's, but I will call her more commited if mine has neither personal limits nor a safeword, and the other does. That level of trust speaks of more commitment to me.

Until the day that god almighty shows up, to peek into the hearts and souls of all humanity and rank everyone accordingly, I call massive bullshit on the idea that either devotion or commitment can be ranked by flavor of relationship, whether M/s, D/s, or mainstream.


For some people, "serious commitment" involves more than what goes in the bedroom or play session.

For some people, "serious commitment" involves devotion and compromise and sacrifice.... in areas both exciting and mundane. The day in/day out co-existence of a sustained life partnership, dealing with sickness and health, budgets and bank accounts, troubles and triumphs, and myriad interactions with family, friends, and careers.

For some people, the measures of devotion and "serious commitment" are taken not in a few titillating months.... but over the course of many years.

The issue here was not between the good wife of 30 years and a slave. It was between slaves and submissives. What does career, budget, etc have to do with the theoretical question? Is there a useful reason to dilute the question?

And I will note the operative phrase was "more serious commitment", making it a comparative statement, not a declarative one.

 

[gingermango]

"My bitch is more devoted than your bitch" sure looks like dick-waving to me.

Until the day that god almighty shows up, to peek into the hearts and souls of all humanity and rank everyone accordingly, I call massive bullshit on the idea that either devotion or commitment can be ranked by flavor of relationship, whether M/s, D/s, or mainstream.


For some people, "serious commitment" involves more than what goes in the bedroom or play session.

For some people, "serious commitment" involves devotion and compromise and sacrifice.... in areas both exciting and mundane. The day in/day out co-existence of a sustained life partnership, dealing with sickness and health, budgets and bank accounts, troubles and triumphs, and myriad interactions with family, friends, and careers.

For some people, the measures of devotion and "serious commitment" are taken not in a few titillating months.... but over the course of many years.

Well said.

Anyone who disagrees, well . . . keep up your 24/7 relationship for more than seven years while living together, maintaining careers, raising children, vacationing with friends and family, attend a few funerals and a few weddings, go to school functions together, bury some pets, and then get back to me about relative levels of "comittment.

 

[Homburg]

17 years together, 8 of which as 24/7 D/s, recently went M/s. Kids, funerals, pets, yep, done all that.

I'm not talking about total relationship commitment. My grandmother blows away all of us, as she was married for 40 years to the same man and stayed true to his memory after he passed. You probably have grandparents that are the same way. And? I was talking commitment to submission/surrender to their PYL. Before you get pissy because I'm saying slaves are more commited, look at the reasons why I say that. They have bupkis to do with bills, family, etc. Those reasons, and that commitment, is mentioned specifically in the limited milieu of the BDSM relationship.

Too many non-M/s people get defensive and cheesed off whenever someone makes a pro-M/s related comment in comparison to D/s. Please tell me that someone who can't abide by caning, won't do pissplay, won't take a spanking, etc is as commited to their submission/surrender to their PYL as someone like osg who gives over her entire existence from one end to the other to her Owner.

I'm not waving the frikken "M/s is better flag". It's different. That's it. But please don't say there is no difference in commitment and devotion. Like I said, it's different.

 

[EmpressFi]

You know I love you Homburg, but I do see where some would say that you are waving the "M/s is better" flag. From time to time you say it's different, but most of the time you use more intense or deeper committment to describe it. And to some... that voids the "it's just different" and fills the vacancy with "it's better". When you say that someone has a "more serious commitment", then instead of saying someone else's is different, you're saying that theirs is less serious. In most people's perception, more and less are not descriptors of differences but ways of categorizing which one you feel is better. It's because I know you as well as I do, that I know you're not waving that flag.. but I can see where the gut instinct is to get defensive