Difference between subs and slaves

[JMohegan]

I won't call mine more devoted than anyone else's, but I will call her more commited if mine has neither personal limits nor a safeword, and the other does. That level of trust speaks of more commitment to me.



The issue here was not between the good wife of 30 years and a slave. It was between slaves and submissives. What does career, budget, etc have to do with the theoretical question? Is there a useful reason to dilute the question?

And I will note the operative phrase was :more serious commitment", making it a comparative statement, not a declarative one.

I realize that it was a comparative statement. That's why I'm objecting to it.

My point is that there are myriad ways of expressing devotion, trust, and commitment. Willingness to be bound and beaten is just one.

Bringing career, budget, etc. into the discussion doesn't dilute the question. On the contrary, it broadens the scope - from play time to the entirety of life.

 

[Homburg]

You know I love you Homburg, but I do see where some would say that you are waving the "M/s is better" flag. From time to time you say it's different, but most of the time you use more intense or deeper committment to describe it. And to some... that voids the "it's just different" and fills the vacancy with "it's better". When you say that someone has a "more serious committment", then instead of saying someone else's is different, you're saying that theirs is less serious. In most people's perception, more and less are not descriptors of differences but ways of categorizing which one you feel is better.

We're getting caught up in language. I'm really trying to figure out how to say this.

Relationship commitment - supporting career, education, helping raise kids, funerals, pets, etc

Submission commitment - just how serious a pyl is in submitting to the will of his/her PYL

This is how I am using these terms.

There is no particular intrinsic difference in my experience between slaves and submissives vis a vis relationship commitment. I do see an inherent difference in commitment to submission though.

Let's say I commit to a task. I agree to mow the yard. If I simply mow the yard, I have discharged my obligation to the task. If I mow the yard, weed, trim the hedges, etc, I have more than discharged my obigation and shown deeper commitment to the task. In both cases the yard gets mowed, so the obligation is properly discharged. Both ways of handling the task are worthwhile. Both. One simply goes farther.

Initially, viv submitted to me, and we had a D/s relationship. She had a handful of limits that I agreed not to touch, some of which were not in agreement with my interests. When we went M/s, her limits went out the window. Things I was interested in, but did not pursue previously, I could now do. Her submission to my will was thus more commited, more deep. She was willing to do things that she had previously been unwilling to do.

When we were D/s, she had a safeword. She could stop the scene any time she wished. When we went M/s, she gave up the safeword. she declared her turust in my judgement of her ability to handle whatever I wanted her too, and turned complete control of any activities over to me. This showed a more serious commitment to my will, as I now controlled all activities how I wish them.

In both cases, she submitted. In the second case, that of M/s, her submission was more serious business. Is this better? I'm not saying that. I am just saying that it is more serious/committed/whatever word make sense here.

My slave - I can do anything I want to her
My submissive - I can do anything I want to her but those things over there on her limit list

In my world, in my eyes, the person on whom I can exercise my whim however I wish is more commited to her submission to me than the person that tells me various activities are off-limit.

This is my opinion. I am not saying that it has to work for you, or anybody else. And I respect that you, and everybody else, has their own opinion. Seriously, I'm cool with it. I just get a bit widgey when someone says there is no difference when, well, there plainly is in my personal experience. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Homburg]

I realize that it was a comparative statement. That's why I'm objecting to it.

Yes, you object to comparative statements as a matter of course.

My point is that there are myriad ways of expressing devotion, trust, and commitment. Willingness to be bound and beaten is just one.

Bringing career, budget, etc. into the discussion doesn't dilute the question. On the contrary, it broadens the scope - from play time to the entirety of life.

And broadening it dilutes it by bringing in extraneous factors that have no bearing. Is there a difference in the ability of a slave to handle a budget over a that of a submissive? Does it matter?

 

[Kajira Callista]

Yes, you object to comparative statements as a matter of course.



And broadening it dilutes it by bringing in extraneous factors that have no bearing. Is there a difference in the ability of a slave to handle a budget over a that of a submissive? Does it matter?

Thank you darlin'.

 

[Homburg]

Thank you darlin'.

A red silk kinda girl

Rawr.

Ahem.

 

[JMohegan]

17 years together, 8 of which as 24/7 D/s, recently went M/s. Kids, funerals, pets, yep, done all that.

I'm not talking about total relationship commitment. My grandmother blows away all of us, as she was married for 40 years to the same man and stayed true to his memory after he passed. You probably have grandparents that are the same way. And? I was talking commitment to submission/surrender to their PYL. Before you get pissy because I'm saying slaves are more commited, look at the reasons why I say that. They have bupkis to do with bills, family, etc. Those reasons, and that commitment, is mentioned specifically in the limited milieu of the BDSM relationship.

Too many non-M/s people get defensive and cheesed off whenever someone makes a pro-M/s related comment in comparison to D/s. Please tell me that someone who can't abide by caning, won't do pissplay, won't take a spanking, etc is as commited to their submission/surrender to their PYL as someone like osg who gives over her entire existence from one end to the other to her Owner.

I'm not waving the frikken "M/s is better flag". It's different. That's it. But please don't say there is no difference in commitment and devotion. Like I said, it's different.

I can get kink any time at a local club. Like finding a fine piece of ass to fuck, finding someone to cane or piss on just isn't that hard.

To me, commitment and devotion only have meaning in the context of a sustained personal relationship. I am looking at this with a total relationship view, and perhaps that explains our different perspectives.

This is not a defensive or cheesed off response. This is me disagreeing with your assertion.

 

[myinnerslut]

slightly off topic...

Like others, I could not have considered myself a slave while we were LDR.

i'm not singling you out, i know there were other posts of the same general nature, but i.. umm.. couldnt find them

anyway, i thought id add my two cents in here. i am a 24/7 TPE slave in a M/s relationship that is currently LDR (thats almost too many acronyms for one sentence). its not by choice. its not online only. its just the way it is becuase of my family, medical issues, and where i go to school. when college is done for me it will no longer be LDR, but untill then we must be patient. and believe you me, patience isnt easy.

being a slave means Master comes first. how, might you ask, can you do that when you are many many hours away? how do you maintain his position as first priority in your life? the answer for me is more then just communication. its contact. availability. calling him throughout the day. sending letters. picture messages. texts. webcam up anytime im alone in my room and he is in his office where his computer is. keeping him fully involved in my life descisions, such as my medical issues.

i am fond of saying that i am his, always and forver, anywhere. no matter where we are. even though i am not next to him i still wear his collar always, tmy slave ID number is strung on an anklet that has been attached aaround my ankle with no way of removing save breaking it, i have his initial hanging fron the naval piercing i got the day i submitted to him, his initial cut into my right thigh, and a scar on the back of my left knee from a dragon tail.

rituals are important in any relationship. LDR they become especially imprtant, as they help restablish my place daily (or however often that particular ritual takes place). for example, i have a bedtime that Master set, every night. the time varies depending on how early i have to be up the next day. every night i wash up, come back to my room, get naked, put on my leather ankle cuffs (right then left), kneel and switch my day collar for my leather one, out on my linked cuffs around my wrists, and he sings me to sleep.

the biggest reason its still possible is becuase i still listen. i still activly choose him over whatever else is in conflict. i still go out of my way to find ways to please him. this is not always easy, and not always intuitive, but it is just what i do its how i live. Master comes first, whether i am by his side or in NY.

 

[BiBunny]

I don't know. I just don't think devotion is something that can be quantitized. (Yes, that's a made-up word.)

Like, let's say I had a sub/slave/pet/whatever. It doesn't really matter if he would jump off the Empire State Building for me if I never ask him to do it, does it? And if the only thing I ever ask him to do is rub my neck when it hurts, then, to someone on the outside looking in, it'd look like he wasn't very devoted if that's ALL he ever did for me.

But, on the other hand, if that's all I ever asked, who cares, right? A pyl can't help it if he's got a lazy owner. I just don't see the point in making some poor sub prove his devotion to me, especially not just for the sake of argument.

I dunno. Maybe I'm missing the point.

 

[NALA CAYENNE]

I know you and I tend to differ in opinion on language and ideas/ideals (yet still are able to remain friends because of agreeing to disagree ), but I have to give you a hug for this.

This is actually the best explanation I have found so far (outside of Daddy's of course ) to explain the difference between slave and submissive.

Definitely a very apt description of difference in the two.

We're getting caught up in language. I'm really trying to figure out how to say this.

Relationship commitment - supporting career, education, helping raise kids, funerals, pets, etc

Submission commitment - just how serious a pyl is in submitting to the will of his/her PYL

This is how I am using these terms.

There is no particular intrinsic difference in my experience between slaves and submissives vis a vis relationship commitment. I do see an inherent difference in commitment to submission though.

Let's say I commit to a task. I agree to mow the yard. If I simply mow the yard, I have discharged my obligation to the task. If I mow the yard, weed, trim the hedges, etc, I have more than discharged my obigation and shown deeper commitment to the task. In both cases the yard gets mowed, so the obligation is properly discharged. Both ways of handling the task are worthwhile. Both. One simply goes farther.

Initially, viv submitted to me, and we had a D/s relationship. She had a handful of limits that I agreed not to touch, some of which were not in agreement with my interests. When we went M/s, her limits went out the window. Things I was interested in, but did not pursue previously, I could now do. Her submission to my will was thus more commited, more deep. She was willing to do things that she had previously been unwilling to do.

When we were D/s, she had a safeword. She could stop the scene any time she wished. When we went M/s, she gave up the safeword. she declared her turust in my judgement of her ability to handle whatever I wanted her too, and turned complete control of any activities over to me. This showed a more serious commitment to my will, as I now controlled all activities how I wish them.

In both cases, she submitted. In the second case, that of M/s, her submission was more serious business. Is this better? I'm not saying that. I am just saying that it is more serious/committed/whatever word make sense here.

My slave - I can do anything I want to her
My submissive - I can do anything I want to her but those things over there on her limit list

In my world, in my eyes, the person on whom I can exercise my whim however I wish is more commited to her submission to me than the person that tells me various activities are off-limit.

This is my opinion. I am not saying that it has to work for you, or anybody else. And I respect that you, and everybody else, has their own opinion. Seriously, I'm cool with it. I just get a bit widgey when someone says there is no difference when, well, there plainly is in my personal experience. Your mileage may vary.

 

[subbie_333]

Let's fight

Wow, you people are civilized. Usually when i see this discussion, a fight breaks out and everybody has to be sent to their rooms.

i think it might be one of those situations where you know what you are and you know it when you see it.

(Geez, this is gonna take awhile to get to my 100 posts)

 

[subbie_333]

Extraneous

BTW, have i mentioned lately that i think i love BiBunny, but, not sure why?

 

[Homburg]

I can get kink any time at a local club. Like finding a fine piece of ass to fuck, finding someone to cane or piss on just isn't that hard.

Finding it all in one package is a bit more difficult.

To me, commitment and devotion only have meaning in the context of a sustained personal relationship. I am looking at this with a total relationship view, and perhaps that explains our different perspectives.

Probably does, but I also see commitment and devotion that way in the sense of relationship commitment. Just not in the specific look at commitment to submission.

This is not a defensive or cheesed off response. This is me disagreeing with your assertion.

Not particularly aimed at you, JM.

 

[BiBunny]

BTW, have i mentioned lately that i think i love BiBunny, but, not sure why?

LOL, you'd think you'd have figured out the "why" part by now.

 

[Homburg]

I don't know. I just don't think devotion is something that can be quantitized. (Yes, that's a made-up word.)

Like, let's say I had a sub/slave/pet/whatever. It doesn't really matter if he would jump off the Empire State Building for me if I never ask him to do it, does it? And if the only thing I ever ask him to do is rub my neck when it hurts, then, to someone on the outside looking in, it'd look like he wasn't very devoted if that's ALL he ever did for me.

But, on the other hand, if that's all I ever asked, who cares, right? A pyl can't help it if he's got a lazy owner. I just don't see the point in making some poor sub prove his devotion to me, especially not just for the sake of argument.

I dunno. Maybe I'm missing the point.

I have been trying to stay away from devotion for this exact reason. When I mentioned it, I was speaking about a specific group of folks, ie slaves I personally know, and referring to the depths of their devotion. those same individuals may well have been that devoted as submissives and/or vanillas. *shrug*

Commitment, in the specific sense I was referring to, can be looked at a little more quantitatively in my opinion (Fuck, did I spell that right?), and, again, in this specific milieu.

----

I know you and I tend to differ in opinion on language and ideas/ideals (yet still are able to remain friends because of agreeing to disagree ), but I have to give you a hug for this.

This is actually the best explanation I have found so far (outside of Daddy's of course ) to explain the difference between slave and submissive.

Definitely a very apt description of difference in the two.

*hugs*

Thank you, Nala. We usually do disagree on word choice, so I am either doing something very right, or something very wrong here

 

[Homburg]

Wow, you people are civilized. Usually when i see this discussion, a fight breaks out and everybody has to be sent to their rooms.

i think it might be one of those situations where you know what you are and you know it when you see it.

(Geez, this is gonna take awhile to get to my 100 posts)

give it some time. A fight will probably break out.

 

[gingermango]

give it some time. A fight will probably break out.

Not with me. I'm 40 years old and been kinky my whole life. I know what I am, I know what works for me and mine, and I know that the place where idealized fantasy meets the real world is rarely as bright a line as some would have you believe.

Anyone else is free to disagree. They'd be wrong of course . . .

 

[NALA CAYENNE]

Actually, I think you owe this one to Daddy

*hugs*

Thank you, Nala. We usually do disagree on word choice, so I am either doing something very right, or something very wrong here

 

[intothewoods]

Yes, you object to comparative statements as a matter of course.



And broadening it dilutes it by bringing in extraneous factors that have no bearing. Is there a difference in the ability of a slave to handle a budget over a that of a submissive? Does it matter?

I think the point is that a person's devotion to someone else can't be solely measured by whether they have limits with respect to kink. It's not that a slave might be better or worse at handling budgets. It's that devotion in a relationship over the course of many years shows itself in a wide range of ways - from allowing the M to push the s further in kink to taking out the recycling. What did Netzach say once? True love is changing the kitty litter? I get that. I sooo get that. Because a slave doesn't have kinky limits doesn't necessarily translate to increased devotion.

 

[Homburg]

Actually, I think you owe this one to Daddy

Heh, true that.

--

I think the point is that a person's devotion to someone else can't be solely measured by whether they have limits with respect to kink. It's not that a slave might be better or worse at handling budgets. It's that devotion in a relationship over the course of many years shows itself in a wide range of ways - from allowing the M to push the s further in kink to taking out the recycling. What did Netzach say once? True love is changing the kitty litter? I get that. I sooo get that. Because a slave doesn't have kinky limits doesn't necessarily translate to increased devotion.

Meh. I can comparmentalise devotion from commitment, and have largely been talking about cmmitment. I can also compartmentalise commitment to relationship seperate from commitment to submission. They are different animals. My discussion of limits had nothing to do with devotion to the person. My discussion of limits had to do with commitment to submission to that person.

 

[subbie_333]

LOL, you'd think you'd have figured out the "why" part by now.

hhhmmm Well, i just met You Ma'am. And, i would like to think that there is *so* much to You that it will take awhile to find out all of the things i love about You

 

[malinborn]

I have a question for people here and for their ideas and ideals. No argument or otherwise sought just thinking aloud

If someone has a safeword they don't use, are they more devoted than someone who doesn't have one at all, since they don't even have the option of choosing not to use it? By this i mean.. the person has a safeword.. their Dom(me)/Master/Mistress or whatever clearly went passed their limits but they refuse to call out the safeword... would that mean their devotion is that much deeper/stronger/ or whatever word might be considered?

 

[BiBunny]

hhhmmm Well, i just met You Ma'am. And, i would like to think that there is *so* much to You that it will take awhile to find out all of the things i love about You

Heh. You got skills. They could just be ass-kissing skills, but skills nonetheless.

I have a question for people here and for their ideas and ideals. No argument or otherwise sought just thinking aloud

If someone has a safeword they don't use, are they more devoted than someone who doesn't have one at all, since they don't even have the option of choosing not to use it? By this i mean.. the person has a safeword.. their Dom(me)/Master/Mistress or whatever clearly went passed their limits but they refuse to call out the safeword... would that mean their devotion is that much deeper/stronger/ or whatever word might be considered?

I wondered that myself.

 

[JMohegan]

We're getting caught up in language. I'm really trying to figure out how to say this.

Relationship commitment - supporting career, education, helping raise kids, funerals, pets, etc

Submission commitment - just how serious a pyl is in submitting to the will of his/her PYL

This is how I am using these terms.

There is no particular intrinsic difference in my experience between slaves and submissives vis a vis relationship commitment. I do see an inherent difference in commitment to submission though.

Let's say I commit to a task. I agree to mow the yard. If I simply mow the yard, I have discharged my obligation to the task. If I mow the yard, weed, trim the hedges, etc, I have more than discharged my obigation and shown deeper commitment to the task. In both cases the yard gets mowed, so the obligation is properly discharged. Both ways of handling the task are worthwhile. Both. One simply goes farther.

Initially, viv submitted to me, and we had a D/s relationship. She had a handful of limits that I agreed not to touch, some of which were not in agreement with my interests. When we went M/s, her limits went out the window. Things I was interested in, but did not pursue previously, I could now do. Her submission to my will was thus more commited, more deep. She was willing to do things that she had previously been unwilling to do.

When we were D/s, she had a safeword. She could stop the scene any time she wished. When we went M/s, she gave up the safeword. she declared her turust in my judgement of her ability to handle whatever I wanted her too, and turned complete control of any activities over to me. This showed a more serious commitment to my will, as I now controlled all activities how I wish them.

In both cases, she submitted. In the second case, that of M/s, her submission was more serious business. Is this better? I'm not saying that. I am just saying that it is more serious/committed/whatever word make sense here.

My slave - I can do anything I want to her
My submissive - I can do anything I want to her but those things over there on her limit list

In my world, in my eyes, the person on whom I can exercise my whim however I wish is more commited to her submission to me than the person that tells me various activities are off-limit.

This is my opinion. I am not saying that it has to work for you, or anybody else. And I respect that you, and everybody else, has their own opinion. Seriously, I'm cool with it. I just get a bit widgey when someone says there is no difference when, well, there plainly is in my personal experience. Your mileage may vary.

Homburg, your description of the progression of your marriage makes perfect sense to me, and it would be goofy beyond belief for me to question or disagree with your assessment of the relationship that you, as an individual, have with your wife, as an individual.

My disagreement comes when you extrapolate from your personal experience and make generalized comparisons about the level of devotion and commitment in D/s vs. M/s relationships overall.

Bob and Kate's M/s may involve far less devotion and commitment than Tom and Tina's D/s, or even your grandmother's mainstream marriage. It depends on the individuals and the specific circumstances of their unique relationships. That's my point.

 

[NALA CAYENNE]

... Because a slave doesn't have kinky limits doesn't necessarily translate to increased devotion.

I agree with what you're saying here ITW- only one's heart can translate devotion to their Dominant/Owner.

However, in agreeing with Homburg, a submissive generally has the option of imposing limits on their Dominant- I don't think that means they are any less devoted in their submission, but I do think they are less devoted in their mindset.

A slave has surrendered everything they are to the person that owns them. There are no limits, no safewords, a deeper committment to the relationship, like Homburg said. There is no deciding what you think is best for you. There is just the trust that the person they have surrendered to, the person they call Master, their Owner, has their best interests at heart. I don't necessarily think this an increased devotion, but I do think like Homburg in that there's more of a level of committment.

It's kind of like a vanilla relationship really. A boyfriend/girlfriend situation, tends to have less of a committment level than a husband/wife situation. Sometimes even the levels of devotion vary.

Another really good definition I got on slave vs. sub is that a submissive depends on her Dominant's direction in taking care of his/her (the Dominant's) needs and desires. The slave knows her Owner's needs and desires and acts accordingly. Where a submissive may have a list of rules that emcompass everything from what to call their Dominant to what to wear, the slave has only one rule: serve and obey your Master.

 

[subbie_333]

I have a question for people here and for their ideas and ideals. No argument or otherwise sought just thinking aloud

If someone has a safeword they don't use, are they more devoted than someone who doesn't have one at all, since they don't even have the option of choosing not to use it? By this i mean.. the person has a safeword.. their Dom(me)/Master/Mistress or whatever clearly went passed their limits but they refuse to call out the safeword... would that mean their devotion is that much deeper/stronger/ or whatever word might be considered?

If the dominant doesn't push limits to the point that a safeword is needed, then, why should that be a judgment of the submissive/slave? On the other hand, not using a safeword when it is needed most of the time is the sign of a stupid submissive/slave. Or, the dominant doesn't realize that the submissive/slave is too far off into lala land to utter it. Does the relationship require an excessive amount of pain to be *the* way to prove devotion? Or, maybe the submissive/slave is more of a masochist than the dominant is a sadist. Basically, YMMV