Disappointments

[sr71plt]

A. That is irrelevant to the points, which is pushing editing advice at those not specificially asking for it and then posting on the open forum for support/sympathy when he is told to cram it.

B. I've already noted both that those who have engaged his services aren't what is relevant to the point--buyer beware to them--and also that they wouldn't know that they should be satisfied with his edits unless they are trained editors themselves.

What I asked him to do was to prove that he was right in the instance he chose to post here. He hasn't done that.

Are you one of his editorial clients, Lovecraft? If not, why are you speaking for them (other than that you often do that)? Let's hear from them. And I've made them an offer they are free to take up. If they choose not too, we go back to they don't know how good an edit they are getting unless they also are trained editors or have gotten extensive comparison edits.

As for Bronzeage's comment, I quite agree. That's why I've continued to respond to estragon's posts. Writers here deserve to know what "buyer beware" means.

 

[TxRad]

I am certain the ingenue writers who come to this forum seeking help are quite impressed by this thread.

I've got the popcorn concession and I'm making a killing.

But I do see SR's point.

If someone tells you to fuck off, that they don't appreciate your advice or whatever, a forum post is no place to take it. It's usually best to fuck off and forget it. Anything else is just ego.

 

[bronzeage]

A. That is irrelevant to the points, which is pushing editing advice at those not specificially asking for it and then posting on the open forum for support/sympathy when he is told to cram it.

B. I've already noted both that those who have engaged his services aren't what is relevant to the point--buyer beware to them--and also that they wouldn't know that they should be satisfied with his edits unless they are trained editors themselves.

What I asked him to do was to prove that he was right in the instance he chose to post here. He hasn't done that.

Are you one of his editorial clients, Lovecraft? If not, why are you speaking for them (other than that you often do that)? Let's hear from them. And I've made them an offer they are free to take up. If they choose not too, we go back to they don't know how good an edit they are getting unless they also are trained editors.

As for Bronzeage's comment, I quite agree. That's why I've continued to respond to estragon's posts. Writers here deserve to know what "buyer beware" means.

You have exposed your own shortcomings, much more than his.

A good mechanic can diagnose the problem with a car and repair. One does not need to be a mechanic to know if the mechanic did a good job.

 

[bronzeage]

I've got the popcorn concession and I'm making a killing.

But I do see SR's point.

If someone tells you to fuck off, that they don't appreciate your advice or whatever, a forum post is no place to take it. It's usually best to fuck off and forget it. Anything else is just ego.

I take your point, but I ran out of popcorn on the first page and just dropped in to read the last couple posts.

 

[sr71plt]

It's only my own fault, really, but I devoted two-and-a-half hours to providing feedback to an author who requested it in the posted story (even the bad feedback, s/he said). So I quibbled, via "Send Feedback", of course.

I got a lengthy reply, wherein I was politely told that the author neither wanted nor needed an editor, and please to keep my comments to myself. I certainly do not want to go where I am not wanted, much less to spend an evening working (and it is work) to no useful purpose. And I definitely don't want to cause anyone else to spend their time to no useful purpose.

On top of that, the author told me s/he formerly thought me "cool", but now thinks I am "just another English major". I thought I had a fairly thorough catalog of my sins from my friends and family, which I acknowledge, but I plead "not guilty" to that last one.

This is the discussion. All side discussions were introduced by estagon to avoid this discussion.

You can't really have it two ways. If you don't like commenters dropping unspecified negative comment on your stories--or e-mailing it to you--and/or bringing the issue to the public forum, then you really can't think that estragon's behavior is hunky dorry. And this isn't the worst. He pushes unspecified negative editorial comment on authors here who didn't ask for it in even indirect terms.

That's bad behavior. We make clucking sounds of sympathy to story authors here four and five times a week who complain about this behavior. Just because estragon posts to the forum, we should be hypocritical about that?

We have no idea how good his editorial opinions are--because he has declined to give them. But there's no reason to accept his claims to be right simply because he posts to the forum.

 

[sr71plt]

You have exposed your own shortcomings, much more than his.

A good mechanic can diagnose the problem with a car and repair. One does not need to be a mechanic to know if the mechanic did a good job.

You might think about checking out the issue rather than just knee-jerk ragging on someone you don't like.

estragon hasn't established (won't establish) he's a good mechanic--and that isn't the point of this discussion anyway. Even if he was a great editor (and there's no evidence either way on that), vigilante ambulance chasing is simply bad behavior. Tons of people posting stories here are doing it just for fun, and/or only want praise for their stories, and/or only want discussion on their storytelling, not their mechanics--and there's no reason why they shouldn't be left the hell alone to enjoy writing on those levels unless they post for help on this thread or specifically ask someone for his/her help.

It's just an added "bad" if the ambulance chaser doesn't know squat about good critique. That's also a possible wrinkle here, as there's no evidence to the contrary.

 

[bronzeage]

You might think about checking out the issue rather than just knee-jerk ragging on someone you don't like.

estragon hasn't established (won't establish) he's a good mechanic--and that isn't the point of this discussion anyway. Even if he was a great editor (and there's no evidence either way on that), vigilante ambulance chasing is simply bad behavior. Tons of people posting stories here are doing it just for fun, and/or only want praise for their stories, and/or only want discussion on their storytelling, not their mechanics--and there's no reason why they shouldn't be left the hell alone to enjoy writing on those levels unless they post for help on this thread or specifically ask someone for his/her help.

It's just an added "bad" if the ambulance chaser doesn't know squat about good critique. That's also a possible wrinkle here, as there's no evidence to the contrary.

Well, I am a mechanic, actually a very good one and if a mechanic with a high school education and a C in Senior composition can edit on Lit, anyone can.

It isn't rocket surgery.

 

[sr71plt]

Well, I am a mechanic, actually a very good one and if a mechanic with a high school education and a C in Senior composition can edit on Lit, anyone can.

It isn't rocket surgery.

No, but you can certainly get it wrong, which is worse than not giving the advice at all. And it isn't the point here (either the substantive one or your knee-jerk one).

 

[bronzeage]

No, but you can certainly get it wrong, which is worse than not giving the advice at all. And it isn't the point here (either the substantive one or your knee-jerk one).

Seriously, it's just not that difficult and there is so little at stake.

What's the worst case scenario? An edited story gets a 1? You act as if all this affected the rent.

 

[sr71plt]

Seriously, it's just not that difficult and there is so little at stake.

What's the worst case scenario? An edited story gets a 1? You act as if all this affected the rent.

This also is irrelevant to the point. Do try to keep up.

But, on this, ask the authors what they think about your post--how well they like getting 1s on their stories.

And why did you comment at all if it doesn't affect your rent?

 

[PennLady]

Seriously, it's just not that difficult and there is so little at stake.

What's the worst case scenario? An edited story gets a 1? You act as if all this affected the rent.

If editing wasn't that difficult, people probably wouldn't need editors because they could do it themselves.

I think the problem here is that people often give unsolicited editorial feedback. I have, although I rarely do anymore. To some extent, it's the risk you run on a site like this; on the other hand, you can't be surprised if someone tells you to stuff it.

 

[bronzeage]

This also is irrelevant to the point. Do try to keep up.

But, on this, ask the authors what they think about your post--how well they like getting 1s on their stories.

And why did you comment at all if it doesn't affect your rent?

You're not the boss of me. I can take any point I choose.

I volunteer(operative word, which means I don't get paid for it) edit because I enjoy it and the writers are appreciative. I tell the writers I work with not to worry about the scores. It simply isn't a valid indicator of quality. I keep it in perspective. It's a leisure activity. There is no reason to get stressed out over what number some anonymous stranger clicks.

There is more to life than worrying about the rent.

 

[lovecraft68]

A. That is irrelevant to the points, which is pushing editing advice at those not specificially asking for it and then posting on the open forum for support/sympathy when he is told to cram it.

B. I've already noted both that those who have engaged his services aren't what is relevant to the point--buyer beware to them--and also that they wouldn't know that they should be satisfied with his edits unless they are trained editors themselves.

What I asked him to do was to prove that he was right in the instance he chose to post here. He hasn't done that.

Are you one of his editorial clients, Lovecraft? If not, why are you speaking for them (other than that you often do that)? Let's hear from them. And I've made them an offer they are free to take up. If they choose not too, we go back to they don't know how good an edit they are getting unless they also are trained editors or have gotten extensive comparison edits.

As for Bronzeage's comment, I quite agree. That's why I've continued to respond to estragon's posts. Writers here deserve to know what "buyer beware" means.

I happen to know one of them quite well, and they are very happy with what he does. In fact that person does quite a bit of editing for me, and as far as I can tell is pretty good.

As for this trained editor thing? Get off your fucking horse. How trained do you have to be to edit basic grammar? the stories here are not pulitzer prize winning material going into a major market.

I'm not a trained mechanic, but I can fix most of what goes wrong in my car.

As for your offers, no one is ever going to take you up on them, because all you do is mock people as it is. besides, you'd probably send it off to someone else and claim you did it anyway.

And going back to Estragon, you would see people mentioning him and giving him credit in their authors notes.

But you would never see those because that would mean you would have to read someone else story, and you would never do that. You don;t read others work or take interest in anything but your own bullshit.

welcome to the new year you pretentious windbag.

 

[sr71plt]

You're not the boss of me. I can take any point I choose.

I volunteer(operative word, which means I don't get paid for it) edit because I enjoy it and the writers are appreciative. I tell the writers I work with not to worry about the scores. It simply isn't a valid indicator of quality. I keep it in perspective. It's a leisure activity. There is no reason to get stressed out over what number some anonymous stranger clicks.

There is more to life than worrying about the rent.

Again, irrelevant to the point (apparently because you want to avoid the point).

We'll just mark you up as seeing ragging on me and estagon's ego as higher priorities than the enjoyment of writers in being left the hell alone to post stories to Literotica without getting questionable writing advice they didn't ask for--and having that dragged into the public forum.

 

[sr71plt]

I happen to know one of them quite well, and they are very happy with what he does. In fact that person does quite a bit of editing for me, and as far as I can tell is pretty good.

Just can't help yourself from speaking for others, can you? I'm sure that person's happiness is based on comparison shopping rather than just blind hope.

As for this trained editor thing? Get off your fucking horse. How trained do you have to be to edit basic grammar?

Well, as a matter of fact, although you continue to need to be irrelevant to the point, it requires different talents and abilities than digging ditches and working in a warehouse. Don't be so stupid about it. (And who has said that only basic grammar is involved?)

We'll just add you to the group giving estragon's ego priority over the story writers here. Guess this will have to come up again the next time someone comes here to complain about this behavior and you turn your other face to them and agree with them.

It's fun to watch you guys bend so far over backward just to rag on me.

 

[CarlusMagnus]

Again, irrelevant to the point (apparently because you want to avoid the point).

Well, no—it isn't.

The current point of this thread seems to have become: "sr71plt is full of shit."

And, except for PennLady, every poster on this page has helped make the point.

 

[TxRad]

Seriously, it's just not that difficult and there is so little at stake.

What's the worst case scenario? An edited story gets a 1? You act as if all this affected the rent.

I disagree with what is at stake.

I've been lucky in I've had two good editors here at Lit over the years and one excellent one in real life. I learned more about the mechanics of writing from them than anywhere else. If the editor isn't capable (and I'm not saying estragon is or isn't as I don't know one way or the other) then it can give the writer the wrong ideas about how things are done. And yes, down the road it can affect the rent if the writer keeps at it.

 

[PennLady]

Here, I'll speak up. Estragon has done some copy editing for me, and I appreciate it. It's always good to have fresh eyes on a story, and there's nearly always a word out of place that I'll miss. I don't use every suggestion he makes, but the suggested changes do make me think about what's there, so even if I don't use his change, I may make another. Of course I thank him in my notes; if nothing else, it's only courteous.

As for training to edit basic grammar, it appears more training is necessary than one might think. One thing I've noticed since reading and writing my own stuff is that a lot of people do not have the grounding in basic rules of grammar and punctuation. I don't attribute this to laziness or anything; in fact, from various things I've read, it seems these elements simply aren't being taught in a lot of places. People I've edited have admitted as much.

When I edit, I'm up front about the fact that I am not a trained editor. I'm going by the rules I know and remember and the experiences I've had in being edited and published. Some of this is not what I learned, and some of it seems to change with the times.

Again, this particular discussion came about b/c estragon posted about getting slammed for offering unsolicited advice. That's a shame, but it is one of the things you have to be ready for.

 

[DG Hear]

I disagree with what is at stake.

I've been lucky in I've had two good editors here at Lit over the years and one excellent one in real life. I learned more about the mechanics of writing from them than anywhere else. If the editor isn't capable (and I'm not saying estragon is or isn't as I don't know one way or the other) then it can give the writer the wrong ideas about how things are done. And yes, down the road it can affect the rent if the writer keeps at it.

Estragon is more than a capable editor. If it wasn't for him I probably would have stopped writing long ago. I have had some of the best Lit editors help me. Four have won 'Most helpful Editor" LadyCibelle, Techsan, MistressLynn and PennLady. I would put Estragon in the same class as the other four.
DG Hear

 

[sr71plt]

Again, this particular discussion came about b/c estragon posted about getting slammed for offering unsolicited advice. That's a shame, but it is one of the things you have to be ready for.

This is the thrust of the issue of this discussion, no matter how much some want to cloud the issue with side discussions (which I think I've also responded to sufficiently anyway). This depiction isn't quite correct, however. Estragon claims advice was solicited in a note with the story. The specific issue here was bringing the response to the advice he gave to the board for support/sympathy without giving any evidence he gave any constructive advice--or that what he gave was really what the writer was open to. (In most cases, it isn't--which is the base of estragon's mistake here. Most of them don't want to hear they misspell words; most of them want praise or some other connection with readers on the story content.)

The bigger issue is that it's all part of his ego puffing ambulance chasing, which is bad behavior regardless of whatever ability he has to give constructive help. He gives unspecified negative criticism directly on stories and e-mails to those who haven't even done what he claims was done in this case--noted they were interested in feedback in notes to the stories. He's done it to me and to my alts and I've seen such comments on stories in numerous other instances. He challenged me to state the extent of his bad behavior in this regard up the line, and I detailed it, so see no reason to detail it here again.

Quite simply, his vigilante pushing of unspecified--and often unsolicited-- negative criticism is more about puffing up his ego and ambulance chasing than it is about helping the writers here--most of whom aren't seeking his help on technical issues or anyone else's. They are just posting for fun in keeping with what this website is designed to provide. This isn't a creative writing school.

Bronze and others here are trying to change the issue here and move me into a corner of saying stories here should be edited by a professional editor or that use of a second set of eyes on the story by someone who isn't trained in editing or who, in a good many cases, isn't as good at it as the original writer is not good enough--when I'm consistently arguing just the opposite.

If a writer wants to post a story here that hasn't been edited at all or betaread by anyone else, that's good enough for me. They should be left the hell alone to do that if they want. They are likely to find appreciative readers, and vigilante critics should leave them just the hell alone. If they want advice, they'll ask for it. If they've asked for it and not gotten the type of advice they thought they were asking for and react badly to what they get, they should be left the hell alone, not dragged into the public forum. If they haven't asked directly for help, either in this forum or directly to another poster, they should just be left the hell alone.

 

[TxRad]

Estragon is more than a capable editor. If it wasn't for him I probably would have stopped writing long ago. I have had some of the best Lit editors help me. Four have won 'Most helpful Editor" LadyCibelle, Techsan, MistressLynn and PennLady. I would put Estragon in the same class as the other four.
DG Hear

I thought I made it clear that i didn't know if he was or wasn't and if he is that good, I will take your word for it. I was disagreeing with bronzeage over the statement that there was little to lose here on this site. And yes, in some cases, this is a training ground for writers so the rent in the long run can be affected.

Sorry for any misunderstanding.

 

[sr71plt]

Fine, Carlus, (although you were technically incorrect) I don't mind you signing up for the list of those seeing ragging on me and estagon's ego as higher priorities than the enjoyment of writers in being left the hell alone to post stories to Literotica without getting questionable writing advice they didn't ask for--and having that dragged into the public forum.

 

[sr71plt]

I thought I made it clear that i didn't know if he was or wasn't and if he is that good, I will take your word for it. I was disagreeing with bronzeage over the statement that there was little to lose here on this site. And yes, in some cases, this is a training ground for writers so the rent in the long run can be affected.

Sorry for any misunderstanding.

I think DG Hear was responding to my note, as PennLady did, that although estagon claimed he edited for some of the best writers on Lit., I'd seen no testimonials. Now I have. I did cover the possibility of being satisfied without knowing what satisfaction was already (which ties into some of what you've been posting), though. And DG Hear responded to that too, saying estagon was as good as four other editors he has used. Having looked over DG Hear's latest story, though, I'd be interested if PennLady or MistressLynn would really give him the same "quality" edit.

This, of course, is a side issue to the point of this discussion--but it seems to be a side issue that won't go away. If either estagon or DG Hear would like to pursue that issue further, I'm certainly game--because it very much does tie into not all "help" being constructive in either the short or the long run.

 

[estragon]

I said before, I won't play.

So now on to my latest disappointment. And no, I neither want nor need sympathy. This is a blog entry. If uninterested, tune out.

As SA Penn Lady said, I do copy edit for her, when asked. She had asked me to do so on one chapter of her latest series the other day. I was unable to meet her desired timeframe, as Herself that day had to spend three-and-a-half hours having her upper jaw worked on to remedy bone loss caused by a very nasty microbe she acquired in Texas (sorry Texans, your State grows some beauties). I had to make sure she got to her appointment, got home, and the insurance company got vanquished in the never-ending battle over payment for medicines.

Then I had to leave her to show up before the Magistrate in US District Court who was superintending discovery in a case where I was helping out. His Honor looks at 5 p.m. as the breaking of the dawn (fortunately), so I got there on time. And we got everything we could have wanted.

I had only one story in the stack ahead of SA Penn Lady's, but it was after 1:30 a.m., when I finished it. I was falling asleep sitting up by that point, so trying to copy edit was doing no one any favors.

I e-mailed SA Penn Lady the next morning, but she had decided to post, not having heard from me. No complaint from me, as (a) what work I proposed do on her story was minimal, and (b) any author is free to accept or reject any proposed edits for any reason or for no reason.

My disappointment? This was the first time I missed an author's deadline. SA Penn Lady's story was excellent, and I'm sure will receive the praise it, and she, deserve. She was Editor of the Year in 2011, a well-earned honor.

 

[estragon]

Another Health-Related Disappointment

From what I can glean from the Valentine's Day Contest Support thread, it looks like LunaEroticaMystica, NT, has health issues that will keep her from entering the contest. I see that, with her generous spirit, she is helping others. I'm sorry we won't get to see another wonderful Romance from one of the best--although hope does spring eternal. Get well soon, National Treasure--we miss you.