Disappointments

[estragon]

sr, but when I do say what I mean, you accuse me of playing the vigilante. So which is it? Or doesn't it matter, as long as you can always claim you're always right?

By the way, no, I was not an English major.

 

[lovecraft68]

It's only my own fault, really, but I devoted two-and-a-half hours to providing feedback to an author who requested it in the posted story (even the bad feedback, s/he said). So I quibbled, via "Send Feedback", of course.

I got a lengthy reply, wherein I was politely told that the author neither wanted nor needed an editor, and please to keep my comments to myself. I certainly do not want to go where I am not wanted, much less to spend an evening working (and it is work) to no useful purpose. And I definitely don't want to cause anyone else to spend their time to no useful purpose.

On top of that, the author told me s/he formerly thought me "cool", but now thinks I am "just another English major". I thought I had a fairly thorough catalog of my sins from my friends and family, which I acknowledge, but I plead "not guilty" to that last one.

Understand that when most authors say good/bad they really are only looking for good. HUman nature in general does not take well to criticism.

Trust me if I senty a long glowing feedback to same author I would get a very nice response back.

For me, if I received a critique like yours I would thank you for the time involved whether I agreed or not. Most readers won;t take 2 seconds to vote, never mind send an e-mail.

And as for qualified to edit. Its a free site and everyone is entitled to opinion. Yours was that the story had issues someone else may disagree. But you don't need a degree to know where a comma goes.

 

[lovecraft68]

sr, but when I do say what I mean, you accuse me of playing the vigilante. So which is it? Or doesn't it matter, as long as you can always claim you're always right?

By the way, no, I was not an English major.

Do yourself a favor and do not jack your thread by arguing with that fool.

He comes here touting his credentials and "real word" experience because its a free site populated by people writing for fun and he thinks they think he is something.

He comes here because those in the "real world" know he's a hack and tell him so. He is here to try to be better than. To bad he has not gotten it through his head that many of the "hack" writers here are better than him.

 

[sr71plt]

sr, but when I do say what I mean, you accuse me of playing the vigilante. So which is it? Or doesn't it matter, as long as you can always claim you're always right?

By the way, no, I was not an English major.

When I object to you saying what you mean, it's when you've been a vigilante critique provider--giving criticism where it wasn't requested. In this case, you say it was requested. Apples and oranges.

What you do in this case is expect us to assume you were right in your criticism just because you say you are. I think not. If you want to get support for requested criticism that wasn't accepted gracefully--which is what you have done here by posting on this instance to this thread--you jolly well should show that you were right in your criticism. You still haven't done that.

If you want us to support your criticism, tell us what the issues are and the positions you took. There's no reason for us to assume you are correct just because you posted to the forum and s/he didn't. I'm not asserting your critique was wrong. It's a "who knows?" situation because you don't reveal the issue and your position(s). You are the one who posted to the forum for support/sympathy.

Aren't you the one claiming you're right and expecting that to be accepted without a shred of evidence?

 

[sr71plt]

Sort of speaking out of both sides of your mouth, there, aren't you, Swiftboater?

You weigh in on the side of those railing against negative criticism on stories from "trolls" and at the same time are quick to side with someone who is not only giving unevidenced negative criticism--often unsolicited--on stories but is also giving it in the public forum and also complaining in the public forum when the story's author takes umbrage at the unevidence criticism.

You must get whiplash from trying to keep both of those faces forward.

 

[estragon]

sr, I am not seeking your support, or indeed the support of anyone. As this thread is entitled "Disappointments", I post my disappointments here. Whether my opinion influences you or anyone else does not matter to me. If you do not wish my opinion, don't read my posts; it's a democracy, after all.

As for giving examples in this particular case, since the author in question did not desire my comments in private, I have no intention of posting them (or examples of them) in public. I note my disappointment, and move on. Like big boys do.

 

[sr71plt]

If you weren't seeking support, agreement, attention, and unearned (by any evidence you give) validation of expertise you wouldn't post this sort of stuff to the public forum. You're just trying to puff yourself up as an editorial guru that you won't evidence. There's no other reason why you would impose your negative editorial critiques on story writers--many who didn't ask for a critique--and then show no evidence that you are right in your critiques. And do so so publicly.

I'll stick with supporting the writers until/unless you provide evidence of your claims to be right and them wrong. And if you post to the public forum, so will I.

And I suggest that anyone who gets a comment from you on their story that it needs unspecified editing just delete the comment. Because your activity isn't about helping them--it's about establishing position for you cheaply.

 

[estragon]

Suggest away. It does get repetitive, but once again, say whatever you like, wherever you like, and I will do likewise.

Why you spend so much time and energy denouncing me is a puzzlement, unless you think I have some credibility. If I have none, why bother? Unless it's the vigilante in your soul, of course.

And why you take it upon yourself to belittle me, when you get your intestines in an uproar when LC68 does the same to you, is not merely puzzling, it is laughable.

 

[sr71plt]

Suggest away. It does get repetitive, but once again, say whatever you like, wherever you like, and I will do likewise.

Why you spend so much time and energy denouncing me is a puzzlement, unless you think I have some credibility. If I have none, why bother? Unless it's the vigilante in your soul, of course.

And why you take it upon yourself to belittle me, when you get your intestines in an uproar when LC68 does the same to you, is not merely puzzling, it is laughable.

No comparison whatsover. Swiftboater goes after me because of who I am (and he isn't). I go after you when you display bad behavior toward writers of stories here--just to puff yourself up.

 

[estragon]

"Bad behavior"? Substantiate.

 

[sr71plt]

"Bad behavior"? Substantiate.

Vigilante shoving of your ideas of what is proper editorially in stories on folks who didn't ask for it. Shoving of your unsubstantiated ideas of what is proper editorially in stories on folks who did ask for it--but for views you don't evidence as being better than they wrote. The boorish behavior of giving negative unsubstantiated editorial critique in public fora--both as comments directly on the stories and here in the public forum. Posting about interactions with those you've critiqued here in the public forum, claiming they have failed to bow to your unsubstantiated editorial superiority--without giving a shred of evidence that you were right and they were wrong. Trying to puff yourself up as an editorial guru via the forum without a shred of evidence that you know anything about editing. Cheerleading for your pet authors in contests on a fora open to all authors of stories in contests--and then claiming you aren't doing so.

Most of this is activity that posters to the forum daily identify as trolling of their stories.

Can't substantiate in specifics, of course, because that's at the crux of what you do--pick at folks and destroy their sheer enjoyment of writing stories here for editorial "sins" that you don't bother to substantiate--or show any indication that you have the knowledge and expertise to be providing.

Look around. Who else is maintaining a thread of picking on storytellers here who didn't ask for the criticism and for which you are not backing up evidence that you are any more right than they were to begin with? Doesn't sink in to you on why that's so, does it? duh. Your answer to this before has been that you do it because you can. Well, so could everyone else. But they don't. They don't because it's bad behavior.

 

[estragon]

And who appointed you the thought police?

Those whom you allege I offended are presumably capable of defending themselves, if they think they need defending.

Once again, this BB is here for readers (and authors) to talk about the stories they like and those they don't like.

 

[sr71plt]

And who appointed you the thought police?

Those whom you allege I offended are presumably capable of defending themselves, if they think they need defending.

Once again, this BB is here for readers (and authors) to talk about the stories they like and those they don't like.

I was defending myself. You did it to me (remember) and have done it to my alt postings too. In none of these cases did I ask for editorial critique or did you do any more than assert there was something wrong with the stories without specifiying what, in your self-appointed superior, untrained wisdom you thought was wrong. Just puffing yourself up on hot air and being a vigilante busybody troll.

I knew you would continue the bad behavior.

You have yet to try to justify this boorish behavior with any explanation beyond no one being able to stop you from doing it.

 

[estragon]

I copy edit for some of the best writers on this site.

That said, I need not justify myself to you or anyone else. If the proprietors of the site wanted to ban me, they could easily do so. They have not.

I have nothing further to say to you. If you wish to rant further, that's your problem.

 

[sr71plt]

I copy edit for some of the best writers on this site.

That said, I need not justify myself to you or anyone else. If the proprietors of the site wanted to ban me, they could easily do so. They have not.

I have nothing further to say to you. If you wish to rant further, that's your problem.

That's irrelevant. They are folks who have come to you. (They also are folks, I would guess, who have never had a real editor work on their stories--they thus would not really know what a good copy edit was in comparison to whatever you provide).

But, that's irrelevant to the specific "discussion" here. You posted wanting support/sympathy (or you wouldn't have posted) for a story writer taking umbrage at editorial comments you sent her/him, which they didn't directly ask for. (When people ask for feedback at the tail end of their stories, truth be known, most of them want praise--and most of the rest are thinking of feedback on their story, not on technical issues). You asked for support/sympathy without evidencing that you were right and s/he was wrong in what the writer objected to what you provided.

So, unless/until you do evidence why the writer should not have taken umbrage at what you gave her/him (and knowing the type of unevidenced comments you make on people's stories unasked), than I'm with the writer in telling you you can just get screwed as far as getting any support/sympathy for your behavior.

And again, you make no excuses for your bad behavior other than you can do it until/unless you get banned from the site. That too is irrelevant to it being bad behavior.

 

[estragon]

I have no problem with you or anyone else telling me to get screwed. I simply reserve the right to reply appropriately.

Which, in your case, means I ignore you.

 

[estragon]

Who said I wanted sympathy, from you or anyone else? I can say what I want, and you need not read it, or read into it, or project onto it. Of course, you are at liberty to do all of the foregoing, which you will do whether or not you have my permission or anyone else's.

For my part, I have been told often enough to get screwed, or whatever, so that I am able to decide from whom such a remark is or is not acceptable. In your case, I suggest you really shouldn't hold out any hope.

I leave the task of yanking your chain to Lovecraft68, who is far more proficient than I.

 

[estragon]

It is a disappointment that PatriciaFCartier never finished the Pam Burgin series. I still wonder what happened to Pam's friend after lunch at the taco place.

I wish Ilmonamour would write the rest of her Texas story. San Antonio is a great story city. O. Henry set a couple of his best in San Antonio. And I have happy memories of my very short time in that city. Herself and I spent our 25th wedding anniversary there (no disappointment at all). Or maybe Ilmonamour will bring back Brad and Samantha. A great series. And with Super Bowl around the corner, appropriate.

 

[sr71plt]

For my part, I have been told often enough to get screwed, or whatever, so that I am able to decide from whom such a remark is or is not acceptable. In your case, I suggest you really shouldn't hold out any hope.

Yes, I quite understand that you are totally dense to your bad behavior of peeing in people's Cheerios without a hint of possessing the expertise to give them the editorial guidance you push at them to puff yourself up.

At least Scouries does his self-promotion at the expense of other writers so outrageously and tongue in cheek that he gives the impression that he isn't just a dense dope about it.

Lovecraft seems to have backed off from you here. Perhaps he realized that what you are doing is exactly what he and others rail about on negative comments left on people's stories--except that you do it worse; you post it to the public forum as well. Perhaps if you exhibited that you know what you are talking about in your critiques . . . but you don't.

 

[estragon]

If you spent half the time helping others, given your self-proclaimed credentials and capabilities, that you spend denigrating me, you might accomplish something worthwhile. Right now, if anyone is "peeing in the Cheerios", to use your felicitous phrase (is that the mark of a superior writer?), it is you.

 

[sr71plt]

If you spent half the time helping others, given your self-proclaimed credentials and capabilities, that you spend denigrating me, you might accomplish something worthwhile. Right now, if anyone is "peeing in the Cheerios", to use your felicitous phrase (is that the mark of a superior writer?), it is you.

Pinning you down on your bad editorial critique behavior IS helping others.

And, for the matter of helping, I help a lot of writers here who ask for the help. (Although this isn't about my editorial advice behavior--it all comes your postings.) That's the kicker, they've specifically asked for the help. You go pushing youself without evidence of expertise on others--most of whom haven't asked for the "help." And we haven't determined whether what you give is "help." All I've seen you do is tell folks they need a editor (hint, hint, you). I haven't actually seen you specify what is wrong with what they've written that you could do any better.

I thought I didn't bother you and that you were just going to ignore me.

(As for my credentials--which you, not I, have brought up. Ask around to some of the writers you fawn over here--you'd be surprised how many know what my credentials are.) We haven't really gotten around to comparing any credentials. You won't even exibit any specific knowledge of editing.

 

[estragon]

"Pinning you down on your bad editorial critique behavior IS helping others." Proof?

 

[sr71plt]

"Pinning you down on your bad editorial critique behavior IS helping others." Proof?

This thread.

1. This "discussion" started with you seeking support/sympathy because you gave apparently unwanted/inferior "help" to someone who then told you where to shove it.

2. Where are the testimonials from those wonderful storytellers you edit for? Their own abilities aren't in quesiton, but I'd be happy for them to send me something you edited and let me offer suggestions on how good your "help" to them was. I'd be happy to provide citations from the publishing industry authorities.

Still would like to see any evidence you know squat about editing for anyone. I keep bringing this up. You keep ignoring it. It's OK, buyer beware, when they contact you. It's bad behavior when you impose it on story authors here. (Let's not forget the point.)

Again, I thought you didn't care and were just going to let me rant (although all I do is respond to what you post. If you want it to stop, just stop posting about it. We can wait for the next round when you've peed on some other writer's Cheerios and come here for support/sympathy.)

 

[bronzeage]

I am certain the ingenue writers who come to this forum seeking help are quite impressed by this thread.

 

[lovecraft68]

This thread.

1. This "discussion" started with you seeking support/sympathy because you gave apparently unwanted/inferior "help" to someone who then told you where to shove it.

2. Where are the testimonials from those wonderful storytellers you edit for? Their own abilities aren't in quesiton, but I'd be happy for them to send me something you edited and let me offer suggestions on how good your "help" to them was. I'd be happy to provide citations from the publishing industry authorities.

Still would like to see any evidence you know squat about editing for anyone. I keep bringing this up. You keep ignoring it. It's OK, buyer beware, when they contact you. It's bad behavior when you impose it on story authors here. (Let's not forget the point.)

Again, I thought you didn't care and were just going to let me rant (although all I do is respond to what you post. If you want it to stop, just stop posting about it. We can wait for the next round when you've peed on some other writer's Cheerios and come here for support/sympathy.)

From what I can see there are several authors here Estragon "quibbles" for and they all seem happy with him.

as for your citations of from publishing industry authorities, anyone can copy paste out of a manual. You do it all the time.

Just leave the guy alone. There are people here who have sought him out for editing. No one here seeks you out for anything. Except for me when I'm bored and feel like mocking some one.

And get spell check for Christ's sake. Nothing more annoying than someone questioning another's editing skills with typos in his post.