Do you believe spanking is an appropriate discipline for a child?

[Netzach]

I know a wide range of kids, some terribly behaved and some beyond perfect. None of them have ever been known to dart into the street. Mine is no angel, but he's never run into the street. If I had a child who could break free from me and run into the street on a whim, and refused to listen, I'd probably not let him play near the road alone. I don't know. My kid has never been uncontrollable. It's just inconceivable to me. If you haven't yelled at your kid for every little thing, and then you raise your voice a little with a very firm NO DANGER in these big deal moments, most kids go yikes, that's a mommy reaction I don't know, and it sticks with them. That's what child pscyhologists say and it's always held true for me.

That said, I don't think a calmly administered swat will cripple your child for life or anything. I know a few people who spank whom I respect, and others whom I do not. But I certainly don't think it's required to raise a well-behaved child. That's just silly.

I can't remember any of us running into the street - whatsoever, and I'm not talking about a particularly mellow or sane group of kids LOL. I *did* almost get hit by a cab doing 50 down the hill in front of our house ON THE SIDEWALK when I was almost 10 or 11, that was one of my nine lives. Very invigorating.

 

[Netzach]

This is not always so; not every child lives in a residental area. I live in the country; if i ran out in the street and got hit when I was little I would have been hit by a car going 55 or 60 miles an hour. The same goes for my children though we live on a dirt road instead of a state road. So, don't automatically blame the driver, it isn't always their fault.

It seems to me that the lesson of looking both ways would be more useful than your ass is going to get smacked if you go out there. The reason I didn't go off with nice strangers offering me shit in the park was not "because mom'll kill me!" but because I knew the kinds of things that they were liable to be interested in. When my mother wasn't being an idiot she was really good at explanations that instilled *healthy* fear. I have to say, while I probably spent more time being risk-averse than I needed to, I definitely have a highly developed ability to avoid conflict and trim my interactions with strangers down hugely.

I'm not talking about a 2 year old either, because the notion of them being out alone is already a WTF. Again, though, I have no expertise in babies and dirt roads, I just survived the Bronx in the eighties, having been smacked and slapped for myriad reasons, none of them educational or valuable.

 

[sadangel]

There is no option for it depends so I didn't vote. There are times when a swat is necessary. There are many times it is not. Circumstances dictate which.

 

[zarngash]

If you haven't yelled at your kid for every little thing, and then you raise your voice a little with a very firm NO DANGER in these big deal moments, most kids go yikes, that's a mommy reaction I don't know, and it sticks with them. That's what child pscyhologists say and it's always held true for me.

This is my goal with my two boys. However, there are a few times more sever behavior redirection methods have been applied, and ironically I can count the number of applications on one hand and the immediacy of effectiveness I have found cannot be duplicated.

Not appropriate.

I live in a country where every form of spanking your children has been against the law for 30 years now. Based on that and my own experience as a parent I'd say it's definitely not necessary to spank children. Ever. Several has used that term - necessary - in this thread. There are other ways.

Personally I try to raise my kid without punishments, threats, bribes and with extremely few rules. I communicate, we cooperate and muddle through. He's 10 now and has not only survived so far, but is actually really to great to be around.

And I never even smacked him once.

The executive summary version of Sweden, they had huge child abuse issues and finally got it together with law and educational social programs. That is awesome. I know I'd like to know what methods work for them...


click here for information


You could be more forthright with your post.

 

[intothewoods]

I can't remember any of us running into the street - whatsoever, and I'm not talking about a particularly mellow or sane group of kids LOL. I *did* almost get hit by a cab doing 50 down the hill in front of our house ON THE SIDEWALK when I was almost 10 or 11, that was one of my nine lives. Very invigorating.

Yeah, I should note that I was never spanked, and I never ran into the street either. To be fair, I was a complete goody goody.

This is my goal with my two boys. However, there are a few times more sever behavior redirection methods have been applied, and ironically I can count the number of applications on one hand and the immediacy of effectiveness I have found cannot be duplicated.

Honestly, if I got pissed and hit my kid, he would probably hit me back. I know, that sounds terrible, but I've made it VERY clear that we do not hit in my house, and so I think if I were pissed and hit him, it would make him, understandably, quite angry.

When we argue, he usually has no problem telling me he's upset or that I'm making him mad. I encourage him to discuss his feelings and his anger (rather than bottle it up or be physical), and so if I hit him out of rage, he would probably be really mad at me and think, well then, this is anarchy! He's had some issues with hitting (big emotions, what do I do with these?), and I worked with him to knock it the hell out and figure out, ok, take a deep breath, stop and deal with this. Throughout that, I was able to say, excuse me, do I hit you? We don't hit in this house, period, end of story. It was pretty effective.

To be clear, my kid is pretty respectful, and when he's not, I make it clear quickly how I expect to be spoken to. When I do the I AM THE MOTHER I AM NOT YOUR BUDDY WATCH THAT ATTITUDE talk, he sits up and take notice. I feel like if I hit him, I would basically be behaving like a schoolyard bully and I'd lose that instarespect I get from the mommy voice.

The executive summary version of Sweden, they had huge child abuse issues and finally got it together with law and educational social programs. That is awesome. I know I'd like to know what methods work for them...


click here for information


You could be more forthright with your post.

Really? I thought the Swedes were super kid crazy or something.

 

[caela]

I'd say that it depends. My daughter is 15 months old and, while I've never spanked her, I have smacked her hands. She is the type that if there isn't a consequence then a simple "NO" just doesn't stick with her. Doesn't matter how loud or firmly you say it, she thinks it is a game unless there is a consequence.

Example...She has decided that it is fun to push all the buttons on whatever piece of electronic equipment she can get her hands on. Doesn't matter what it is, computer, TV, the heater on my folks porch, etc. I can tell her "NO" til I am blue in the face and she just giggles and keeps doing it. Sometimes distracting her with another toy works (and is always my first course of action) but often she ignores the new toy or game, even when I've taken her into another room, and simply does everything she can to get back to those buttons! When this is the case I smack her fingers just hard enough to make my point but not hard enough to really hurt her. I also pick her up immediately afterward and explain to her that this isn't a toy for P and she can't play with it, or that she could get hurt etc. Being so young I don't know how much of that she understands but it sets up a precedent for explaining why she got punished.

Now when she gets older I intend to shift into time-outs, taking away toys etc when she can understand what those things are for. Right now all she'd know is that I took her toy and a time-out wouldn't work because she doesn't yet have the sense that she is supposed to stay in one place as a type of punishment.

Punishment of any sort should be age appropriate and well controlled. Even now if I am too angry with her over something I will leave the room to take a few deep breaths and calm myself before going back and dealing with whatever she may have done.

 

[lennythelion]

I voted no, which doesn't mean I haven't done it. I was beaten as a child and, unfortunately, all it taught me was that one should give into one's anger and frustration and take it out on someone less able to defend themselves. Every time I have hit my child, it is because I have been frustrated and out of control. I am "in recovery" on the spanking, and working on controlling my yelling now.

The most effective "training" I have used with my child is what I would call "short leash" - you want to walk by yourself? ok, but you walk by the wall and not by the road; you disobey, you hold my hand, and you will not be allowed to do it again until I can see you're ready to be responsible.

Time-outs are also effective and always have been. Since you're supposed to do them for a minute for every year, you can simply hold the child in the time-out place. They do get it. Kids understand a lot more than you think.

 

[rinka]

The executive summary version of Sweden, they had huge child abuse issues and finally got it together with law and educational social programs. That is awesome. I know I'd like to know what methods work for them...


click here for information


You could be more forthright with your post.

I don't think child abuse was more common in Sweden than other countries, but they saw child abuse as a huge problem. It's a matter of seeing children as people and and fullworthy members of community instead of property. You can't hit anyone else in society for not doing things the way you want them to.

Small children are completely dependant on their parents or caregivers. They give us all their love and trust. Our power over them is massive in so many areas. Physical, economical and emotional. We control what they eat, who they interact with, what information they get. This enormous responsibility needs to be handled with respect.

In Sweden almost all small children go to daycare, starting when they're between 1 and 2 years old usually. That means that the preschool teachers see the child and parents regularly. They have a lot of influence and the chance to see problems early on and offer help in different ways. That and the law against corporal punishment lessen parents' powers a little bit. I think that's a good thing.

What would you like me to be more forthright about?

 

[zarngash]

I agree, spanking among other discipline methods are types of bullying. This would include taking away things from your children or giving them certain rewards for behaviors.

The best of parenting times are when reasoning, understanding and negotiating prevail. Anything else really starts a power struggle, and I don't think anyone gains anything from the outcome of that, well, save learning that we don't want to go down that road.

Of all the parents out there, if you use time out techniques with your children, do you use them on yourself? I do, and sometimes I tell them I am taking a time out.

Yeah, I should note that I was never spanked, and I never ran into the street either. To be fair, I was a complete goody goody.



Honestly, if I got pissed and hit my kid, he would probably hit me back. I know, that sounds terrible, but I've made it VERY clear that we do not hit in my house, and so I think if I were pissed and hit him, it would make him, understandably, quite angry.

When we argue, he usually has no problem telling me he's upset or that I'm making him mad. I encourage him to discuss his feelings and his anger (rather than bottle it up or be physical), and so if I hit him out of rage, he would probably be really mad at me and think, well then, this is anarchy! He's had some issues with hitting (big emotions, what do I do with these?), and I worked with him to knock it the hell out and figure out, ok, take a deep breath, stop and deal with this. Throughout that, I was able to say, excuse me, do I hit you? We don't hit in this house, period, end of story. It was pretty effective.

To be clear, my kid is pretty respectful, and when he's not, I make it clear quickly how I expect to be spoken to. When I do the I AM THE MOTHER I AM NOT YOUR BUDDY WATCH THAT ATTITUDE talk, he sits up and take notice. I feel like if I hit him, I would basically be behaving like a schoolyard bully and I'd lose that instarespect I get from the mommy voice.





Really? I thought the Swedes were super kid crazy or something.

 

[zarngash]

I appreciate you elaborating your opinion and that of your background and the social support network of country. Thank you.

I don't think child abuse was more common in Sweden than other countries, but they saw child abuse as a huge problem. It's a matter of seeing children as people and and fullworthy members of community instead of property. You can't hit anyone else in society for not doing things the way you want them to.

Small children are completely dependant on their parents or caregivers. They give us all their love and trust. Our power over them is massive in so many areas. Physical, economical and emotional. We control what they eat, who they interact with, what information they get. This enormous responsibility needs to be handled with respect.

In Sweden almost all small children go to daycare, starting when they're between 1 and 2 years old usually. That means that the preschool teachers see the child and parents regularly. They have a lot of influence and the chance to see problems early on and offer help in different ways. That and the law against corporal punishment lessen parents' powers a little bit. I think that's a good thing.

What would you like me to be more forthright about?

 

[Netzach]

I'd say that it depends. My daughter is 15 months old and, while I've never spanked her, I have smacked her hands. She is the type that if there isn't a consequence then a simple "NO" just doesn't stick with her. Doesn't matter how loud or firmly you say it, she thinks it is a game unless there is a consequence.

Example...She has decided that it is fun to push all the buttons on whatever piece of electronic equipment she can get her hands on. Doesn't matter what it is, computer, TV, the heater on my folks porch, etc. I can tell her "NO" til I am blue in the face and she just giggles and keeps doing it. Sometimes distracting her with another toy works (and is always my first course of action) but often she ignores the new toy or game, even when I've taken her into another room, and simply does everything she can to get back to those buttons! When this is the case I smack her fingers just hard enough to make my point but not hard enough to really hurt her. I also pick her up immediately afterward and explain to her that this isn't a toy for P and she can't play with it, or that she could get hurt etc. Being so young I don't know how much of that she understands but it sets up a precedent for explaining why she got punished.

Now when she gets older I intend to shift into time-outs, taking away toys etc when she can understand what those things are for. Right now all she'd know is that I took her toy and a time-out wouldn't work because she doesn't yet have the sense that she is supposed to stay in one place as a type of punishment.

Punishment of any sort should be age appropriate and well controlled. Even now if I am too angry with her over something I will leave the room to take a few deep breaths and calm myself before going back and dealing with whatever she may have done.

This may seem like a stupid question in that the answer may be "of course she does!" but do you have a non-working keybord, phone, remote or something in the distraction arsenal? This wouldn't be an unsupervised toy, obviously, but some buttons of one's own may be helpful. At 15 months you're not even able to remember the vast majority of things that are happening to you, let alone figure out that this button causes anything or doesn't.

 

[Netzach]

I don't think child abuse was more common in Sweden than other countries, but they saw child abuse as a huge problem. It's a matter of seeing children as people and and fullworthy members of community instead of property. You can't hit anyone else in society for not doing things the way you want them to.

This will take longer here than agreeing that injured and sick people deserve medical treatment. Anything that challenges the "MY" part of "my children" is getting worse, not better, and we're heading toward a property model again rather than a human model, as I see it. The libertarian urges that point people over cliffs but at least it's MY CLIFF - that right of determination and freedom and being let alone never extends toward "people not like me" in this case people under 18. Clearly some decisions can't be made by children. But failing to teach children how to make decisions by imposing your crappy ones on them at every turn isn't some kind of government off my back triumph. There are upsides and downsides to the degree of latitude we have.

FurryFury can probably speak better to this whole issue, I know she has a lot to say about homeschooling. I think the Yoder V Wis. is a GOOD decision, assuming a community IS good and MEANS good, and has the means to actually transmit the skills your kids will need in life as part of an education.

When it becomes a question of the totally blind leading the totally blind because their tin foil hat beliefs about schools are making them paranoid, I don't think it's OK to say "well that's their right, their kids." And believe me, I've seen plenty of secular homeschoolers and unschoolers I would not let teach a puppy class, this isn't just my reactionary nonbeliever rant.

 

[caela]

This may seem like a stupid question in that the answer may be "of course she does!" but do you have a non-working keybord, phone, remote or something in the distraction arsenal? This wouldn't be an unsupervised toy, obviously, but some buttons of one's own may be helpful. At 15 months you're not even able to remember the vast majority of things that are happening to you, let alone figure out that this button causes anything or doesn't.

It's not a stupid question at all and the answer is that yes she does have her own keyboard and cell phone. The problem with that seems to be that they don't DO anything lol. P is actually pretty clever and seems to have figured out that buttons do things. She knows how to turn the lights on and off (she will actually flip the switch in the correct direction if you tell her to turn it on or off) which necessitated moving her crib lol. The buttons on Mommy's remote are more fun than the buttons on her because they make the TV do things and Mommy's phone is more fun than P's because it lights up and makes noise.

She's also figured out what it means when I say "Mommy will smack your hand" and usually that's all I have to say to her now but every now and again she pushes it and then she gets her fingers smacked followed by sitting on my lap and an explanation (most of which she probably doesn't understand yet but she will eventually and I think it sets up a good precedent for both of us if I explain why things are wrong) of what she did that was bad and why. Eventually I anticipate her understanding that I mean it when I tell her "No" without having to get her attention by smacking her fingers (and it's never more than one smack) to make the point and am looking forward to her getting that big because it makes me feel like an ogre when she get's into trouble.

 

[pellso27]

teach cause and effect because people are losing sight of that. If we teach you can do anything without any harm to you then what example is that? Beat those little shits! Make them pay early before it's too late!!!!

 

[FurryFury]

I'm actually not thrilled with the way the Amish treat their kids.

I wasn't aware that kids are not allowed to drop out around 8th grade anyway.

Interesting.

FF

This will take longer here than agreeing that injured and sick people deserve medical treatment. Anything that challenges the "MY" part of "my children" is getting worse, not better, and we're heading toward a property model again rather than a human model, as I see it. The libertarian urges that point people over cliffs but at least it's MY CLIFF - that right of determination and freedom and being let alone never extends toward "people not like me" in this case people under 18. Clearly some decisions can't be made by children. But failing to teach children how to make decisions by imposing your crappy ones on them at every turn isn't some kind of government off my back triumph. There are upsides and downsides to the degree of latitude we have.

FurryFury can probably speak better to this whole issue, I know she has a lot to say about homeschooling. I think the Yoder V Wis. is a GOOD decision, assuming a community IS good and MEANS good, and has the means to actually transmit the skills your kids will need in life as part of an education.

When it becomes a question of the totally blind leading the totally blind because their tin foil hat beliefs about schools are making them paranoid, I don't think it's OK to say "well that's their right, their kids." And believe me, I've seen plenty of secular homeschoolers and unschoolers I would not let teach a puppy class, this isn't just my reactionary nonbeliever rant.

 

[Keroin]

Interesting thread. Complicated.

I have received a total of one spanking, (as *ahem* a child), in my entire life. I'll never forget it, mostly because I was not guilty for the thing I was spanked about, (though my parents were too angry to realize it at the time). I was six. Physically, I don't think it hurt, but emotionally it sure did. Having said that, it wasn't the end of the world and I don't think it damaged me permanently.

After spending time with my nephews when they were young, I can say it's good I elected to forgo having kids because I can see how easy it would be to lash out. Hats off to parents who can manage without any kind of corporal punishment, I think that's the way to go, in theory. But I don't judge parents who deliver a swat on the butt now and then.

Tough job, parenting.

I'll stick to cats and dogs.

 

[caela]

I'd also like to add that, in my opinion, there is a HUGE difference between spanking and beating a child. My own mother employed corporal punishment on rare occasions but it was never abusive. I never feared her or flinched when she raised her hand or came near me. The few times she did spank or slap me it was controlled and came with an immediate explanation as what I had done wrong. Usually it was me running off at the mouth and she knew me well enough to know that a time out, or grounding, or taking away of toys/privileges wasn't going to curb that behaviour. One quick smack however (never truly hard, wouldn't even turn my cheek red) would get my attention and make THINK about what I was doing/saying.

I can't speak for any other kid, but for me, especially in my teens, nothing else was going to have much effect.

 

[Marquis]

Wow, surprised to see so many yes answers.

I say no.

 

[rakess]

Timing is everything

In my opinion, the timing of the spanking is everything. Spanking is best used quickly and sure to make the child remembers why their actions were bad. When I was spanked, it happened immediately and I knew exactly why I was being punished. Once I was spanked, the punishment was done and the bad deed forgotten. I think the bad effects of spanking are seen when spanking is arbitrary and unpredictable. Most children can put two and two together, hit someone = spanking = no fun.

 

[FurryFury]

Spanking when kids are under three (they can't process anything but fear) and over ten (by this time you should have taught them how to control their own actions, not be trying to control them) is completely wrong IMO. Actually, physically hitting your kids for any reason at all simply shouldn't happen.

I was hit a lot under the age of three. Didn't remember it. Didn't know why I had certain fears until that was revealed to me. I hadn't known why I was so afraid I'd hit my kids prior to having them either. Thankfully, my patience level has been far higher with them than I could have ever expected but I was pretty terrified I'd beat them.

I was hit very little over the age of three. Once, while being spanked by my dad, (as opposed to slapped, dragged around the house, knocked down or choked, all of which are MUCH more frightening), I remember thinking, "Is this all he can do to me? I'll go right back to X (I can't remember wtf X was) as soon as he is done and I can. I was kind of laughing in my head. This is NOTHING and thinking. "Big fucking deal big man, bring it!"

When you lose control of yourself, (which I will admit, have done a handful or less times which my kids, usually when I was in immediate fear for their safety,) that loss of control should be followed by an apology to your kid. Said apology shows the kid this is what you do when you fuck up. You admit what you did instead of denying it or blaming someone else. You ask for forgiveness. Then your try HARD to activity change your reactions and actions for the next time.

This should then morph into a discussion about better ways to handle the situation. Which again teaches the child the thought processes you want them to have when they fuck up.

 

[rakess]

I'm actually not thrilled with the way the Amish treat their kids.

I wasn't aware that kids are not allowed to drop out around 8th grade anyway.

Interesting.

FF

There was a supreme court case called Yoder vs. State of Wisconsin concerning the Amish and education. The supreme court ruled in favor of the Amish, but then later revoked the law.

 

[missginger2177]

Wow, surprised to see so many yes answers.

I say no.

One has to wonder that if Marquis said no, just how far from the pack have the rest of us traveled?

 

[Calabama]

Nope. The only thing violence teaches kids is violence.

 

[FurryFury]

There was a supreme court case called Yoder vs. State of Wisconsin concerning the Amish and education. The supreme court ruled in favor of the Amish, but then later revoked the law.

Interesting.

One has to wonder that if Marquis said no, just how far from the pack have the rest of us traveled?

Seriously.

He is a wise young man sometimes.

Nope. The only thing violence teaches kids is violence.

I so agree. To me the only things worse emotionally for a kid than violence is neglect, indifference and/or abandonment.

 

[Homburg]

Nope. The only thing violence teaches kids is violence.

Violence is sometimes useful, and occasionally even downright needful.

No, I'm not saying that I beat my kids so they'll understand violence, but blanket anti-violence statements like this bug me. Every parent on the planet could stop beating their kids and it would not make violence go away.