Do you ever say 'No'?

[Recidiva]

PYL is pick your own label.

Yeah, I hate labels too, that's probably why I'm ignorant Thank you for answering!

 

[catalina_francisco]

We have no forbidden words in our relationship...though I once met with a Dominant who stated the word 'no' was never to be used, even if it was not in relation to him or anything remotely connected to him....I gave him a miss and found out later he was a screw loose according to many people in our local scene, and did have some rather off the wall, unsafe fantasies he hoped to live out. So I have on occasion said 'no', usually in a way he realises it is not so much refusal as a desperate plea for reconsideration at that moment in time.

For us, he will state what he wants, and if it is a problem I will explain why, but as a rule he would prefer the reason to be a physical, psychological, or emotional one as opposed to my putting my wants ahead of his. If I mention I want to do something for myself first which is based on a want as opposed to a need, it just does not go down well and the repercussions come sometime, either then or later after much tension in the air. If I have a legitimate reason, he will listen, and sometimes will grant a reversal of the order, but not always, not even if it is a legitimate and difficult time. Our relationship is based on his needs coming first always, but it isn't always pretty or easy, just is.

Catalina

 

[shy slave]

First, my ignorance is showing. What does PYL stand for? I tried searching, but it's been of no use.

Second, I think this exact concern is why I don't structure my life according to BDSM principles. Life calls the shots a lot more often than any Dom I could have. I have many migraine headaches and they make me useless, petulant and stupid. I don't like being this way, but the only thing you can do is medicate me and leave me in a dark room, checking on me occasionally without making too much noise or rocking the waterbed.

There's no way I could be of service to anyone at this point in time unless they were a twisted fuckhead who really enjoyed torturing someone in pain. Unfortunately there are a lot of people out there who would just love to take a crack at me right at that particular moment in time.

I have a strong personality, I'm married to someone with a strong personality. He makes me weak lots of ways, but life makes me weaker and I need him to care for me. If I were expected to constantly care for him, my children, myself and all the world's ills, I wouldn't survive it.

Ask yourselves how many people fleeing from the hurricanes took their BDSM gear first or made their sub sit in the back seat. They'd better both be up front in the car in sensible clothes, holding hands between switching gears and steering.

I loved this response, petulance could so easily become a way of life for me. It doesnt work but its fun putting in on

Recidiva you make some good points, sometimes it just too much to be expected to care for everyone all the time.

As for your hurricane comment, its a serious thing to have to flee your home for your own safety; but the idea that people would be packing shackles, masks, rope and their favourite leather outfit before they pack the family photo album then making their pyl travel in the trunck of the car made me laugh out loud.
Thanks

 

[Recidiva]

I loved this response, petulance could so easily become a way of life for me. It doesnt work but its fun putting in on

Recidiva you make some good points, sometimes it just too much to be expected to care for everyone all the time.

As for your hurricane comment, its a serious thing to have to flee your home for your own safety; but the idea that people would be packing shackles, masks, rope and their favourite leather outfit before they pack the family photo album then making their pyl travel in the trunck of the car made me laugh out loud.
Thanks

Good! Find someone that makes you laugh every day, the rest is negotiable

 

[shy slave]

We have no forbidden words in our relationship...though I once met with a Dominant who stated the word 'no' was never to be used, even if it was not in relation to him or anything remotely connected to him....I gave him a miss and found out later he was a screw loose according to many people in our local scene, and did have some rather off the wall, unsafe fantasies he hoped to live out. So I have on occasion said 'no', usually in a way he realises it is not so much refusal as a desperate plea for reconsideration at that moment in time.

For us, he will state what he wants, and if it is a problem I will explain why, but as a rule he would prefer the reason to be a physical, psychological, or emotional one as opposed to my putting my wants ahead of his. If I mention I want to do something for myself first which is based on a want as opposed to a need, it just does not go down well and the repercussions come sometime, either then or later after much tension in the air. If I have a legitimate reason, he will listen, and sometimes will grant a reversal of the order, but not always, not even if it is a legitimate and difficult time. Our relationship is based on his needs coming first always, but it isn't always pretty or easy, just is.

Catalina

Catalina, yours and Franciscos take on life always interests me, you have a lifestyle many people only have in a fantasy world. You always make it clear in your posts that its hard work and takes commitment from both of you.
I admire your determination and commitment to each other regardless of lifes curve balls.

I can see how it would not work if you said it was a personal want as oppose to a need. It always strikes me as interesting how people get that balance in life.

I am aware that you have had life jump out at you last year and Francisco was very supportive at that time; but I am curious when things started to return to normal did his needs continue to come first even on those days when you were low or sad' or did he use his role to look after you and help you out of those feelings?

 

[catalina_francisco]

Catalina, yours and Franciscos take on life always interests me, you have a lifestyle many people only have in a fantasy world. You always make it clear in your posts that its hard work and takes commitment from both of you.
I admire your determination and commitment to each other regardless of lifes curve balls.

I can see how it would not work if you said it was a personal want as oppose to a need. It always strikes me as interesting how people get that balance in life.

I am aware that you have had life jump out at you last year and Francisco was very supportive at that time; but I am curious when things started to return to normal did his needs continue to come first even on those days when you were low or sad' or did he use his role to look after you and help you out of those feelings?

LOL, it is certainly something which I still both agonise and marvel at depending on the day, moment, mood, etc. He is on the one hand a man beyond compare with any other I have ever known, but also, as he sometimes says himself, he can be a right bastard (and he reminds me he warned me of that before we met ), and he can get it wrong as easily as I can. Good thing is though we can both talk about those times once the air has cooled and our heads are a little more straight, and the one thing we can be sure of is neither of us ever regret the choice we made, or the love we have for each other. The balance tipples regularly and needs to be looked at again and again, reset a little, fiddled with, but I think that is normal for any relationship of any length of time unless one is going to be a doormat to the other and/or go into denial concerning their real emotions and life impositions.

He was wonderful throughout my trauma last year, and it still raises its head to haunt us even now at the most inopportune or unpredictable times. For the most part he is there for me, always if he is here beside me, and even in my darkest moments has sometimes demanded more of me than I felt ready to deal with. I admit at those times I may not look at him with such starry eyed adoration, but often his decision has been the right one (not always, but mostly), and when I fall he picks me up again and says what needs to be said to get me on track again, or just holds me and lets me rant, cry, complain....whatever it takes. I imagine given we are both highly emotional beings it will always be this way, but then I suspect we would get bored if it all went according to plan and was a 24/7 fairy tale.

Catalina

 

[graceanne]

PYL is pick your own label.

In capitals (PYL) it represents master, dom/me, top, etc. In lowe case (pyl) it's a sub, slave, bottom, etc.

 

[Recidiva]

In capitals (PYL) it represents master, dom/me, top, etc. In lowe case (pyl) it's a sub, slave, bottom, etc.

I love it when I learn things

Don't mind me, I think the dictionary is sexy. I once had a guy ask me if I heard his voice in my head when he sent me online stuff. I said I didn't because I had to get to hear someone say the words first. He said "Remind me to read you the dictionary later."

 

[AngelicAssassin]

In a similiar vein PYL's how do you cope when you have personal issues that hinder your ability to play, plan use or whatever your pyl? Sometimes reality can take up so much head space it leaves little room to make your pyl feel cared for or wanted. Do you play 'just because,' do you explain the situation and promise normal service will resume in due course and in the meantime hope your relationship can cope or do you find an alternative way forward.

Adepts Adapt.

 

[h_i_s]

I am curious about times when PYL's feel they should be using/playing/whatever and yet feel unable to. For example there are threads on here about mental issues such as depression. If your heading into that state of mind and your pyl is feeling neglected how do you go about dealing with this.

i think both PYLs as well as pyls experience those times, sometimes due to depression, sometimes physical illness. Or at least, i KNOW that IYM and i both do .....

There have been times when sinus migraines, stress migraines, chronic sinusitus, or a bad bout with the common cold have left me less than capable of giving my usual 100% as a slave. When i have been ill, i've been well cared for. Master makes sure i get the rest i need, and eat well, as well as take the over the counter meds that i HATE taking. i can't count how many times i have been ordered to go to bed early, or to take a nap. Sometimes i don't take care of myself as well as i should unless i am told to. Many times this is because i am overly concerned with taking care of Him and our children, the cooking, the house, etc ect. Many times He has had to remind me, that seeing that i rest, and eat well and care for myself properly is HIS responsability ... & that's a good thing because many times, i'm the type who can't rest & relax or allow myself to tend to my own needs until i am certain that everyone else is cared for, and everything that i need to do on a daily basis is DONE. He keeps me well balanced in this way.


There have also been times when my Master has been less than 100% capable of giving His all in caring for me and/or 'playing' as He would like to, due to illness. While He has been ill, i've cared for Him very well. i make sure He gets the rest He needs, and eats well, as well as taking His medications, monitoring His blood sugar levels, & taking His insuline. i can't count how many times i have suggested that HE go to bed early, or take a nap. Sometimes He doesn't take care of Himself as well as He should unless i remind Him to. Many times this is because He overly concerned with taking care of myself and our children, the budget/bills, the house, etc ect. Many times i have had to remind Him, that seeing that He rest, and eat well and care for Himself properly is my responsability as His slave ... & that's a good thing because many times, He is the type who won't rest & relax or allow Himself to tend to His own needs until He is certain that everyone else is cared for, and everything that He needs to do on a daily basis is DONE. i do my best in keeping Him well balanced in that way.

IYM's health is the one area in our relationship with which i am FREE to 'take control' and be a bit more insistant when communicating with Him. There has actually been one time in the past year when my taking charge and speaking to Him with a firm tone and actually ordering HIM to do something has been warranted, simply because He was not 100% capable of knowing and deciding what was best for Himself for a moment. It's an area which He has struggled with and felt less than 'happy' about regarding my having to suddenly be in control of Him rather than He having to look out for me as the one in control, and one that we both understand is sometimes nessacary. It's funny how some things outside of the BDSM realm can actually cause the dynamics of our relationship to flip flop a bit. Again, this is an area which i view as another example of how i serve Him.

As a Dominant and a submissive in our relationship, we are sometimes as different as night and day. However, in many ways it is absolutely ironic just HOW similar we are as well.

The differences between IYM and myself when one of us is less than 100% capable of doing for the other as we would like to are really not all that different. He feels guilty for not being able to do for me as He'd wish to. During those times, i remind Him that it's not His fault that He is ill, and my caring for Him when He is ill is part of my job as His slave & is just
another way in which i enjoy being able to serve Him.
i feel guilty for not being able to serve Him as as He'd like me to. During those times, He reminds me that it's not my fault that i am feeling a bit under the weather, and His caring for me when i am sick is part of His job ... it's just another way in which He enjoys taking the best care of His property as He possible can.

And we each feel that guilt regardless of the other's reassurances that we have no reason to ... even though we each know that it's OK, and are greatful for being able to
lean on the other now and then.

 

[Marquis]

LOL

I bet you love to see a poor lil subbie sweat

But how do you say 'No' to them, or do you simply lock them in a cage until you feel like playing ???

Are you sure you read my post right? Sorry for the triple negative.

Ironically, I do love to see a subbie sweat, but not over communication issues.


I don't lock them in a cage until I am ready for them. I ask them to take the reigns and do their best to handle things as I would want them to. I think Jay Davis said it best. I ask them to take care of the property until the time comes again where I can do it for them.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Sorry for the triple negative.

Almost called you on it, but it actually works both ways therefore suitably obtuse. You'll make a great lawyer one day.

 

[Marquis]

Almost called you on it, but it actually works both ways therefore suitably obtuse. You'll make a great lawyer one day.

I only see one way to read it, enlighten me.

 

[Killishandra]

Almost called you on it, but it actually works both ways therefore suitably obtuse. You'll make a great lawyer one day.

Actually, the word "no" in Marquis' quote should be in quotations since he's indicating what someone else would say to him. With proper punctuation, it would be easy to see that the sentance is actually a double negative, not a triple. Anything in quotations is excused from the rule.

And although double negatives are generally frowned upon in English, this one "feels" fine to me. Perhaps because the two negatives are describing the actions of two different people and therefore do not emphasize nor cancel out one another.

 

[shy slave]

Actually, the word "no" in Marquis' quote should be in quotations since he's indicating what someone else would say to him. With proper punctuation, it would be easy to see that the sentance is actually a double negative, not a triple. Anything in quotations is excused from the rule.

And although double negatives are generally frowned upon in English, this one "feels" fine to me. Perhaps because the two negatives are describing the actions of two different people and therefore do not emphasize nor cancel out one another.

I hate when Americans (and Danish) understand the english language better than I do, anyone want a stab at interpretating Killis comment.
I know its clever, intelligent and correct I am just not sure I understand it !



LOL

Perhaps I should re-read some of Pures old post, I almost have some of them worked out

 

[Andante]

I hate when Americans (and Danish) understand ....

And thats 'Danes', not 'Danish'....

 

[shy slave]

I would say 'bloody men' but I know better than to cause even more trouble

 

[Marquis]

Actually, the word "no" in Marquis' quote should be in quotations since he's indicating what someone else would say to him. With proper punctuation, it would be easy to see that the sentance is actually a double negative, not a triple. Anything in quotations is excused from the rule.

And although double negatives are generally frowned upon in English, this one "feels" fine to me. Perhaps because the two negatives are describing the actions of two different people and therefore do not emphasize nor cancel out one another.

Well you spelled sentence wrong, bitch!

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Dissection

Let's start with what might have been the original intent.

i wouldn't trust a sub who could tell me no without breaking a sweat.

i'd say this describes either a warrior submissive, or one of Q-bow's paying clientele. Both know exactly what they want & need, and will not hesitate to remind a partner.

Moving on to your quote worthy of a lawyer,

I wouldn't trust a sub who couldn't tell me no without breaking a sweat.

at first glance, the construction appears to be the counterpart of the first, a submissive that would break out in a sweat if she told you no.

One should be able to rearrange any sentence and come up with the same meaning. Stretch a little and you get the second again, but one that describes a significantly different submissive ... a sub who could, without breaking a sweat, not tell me no. She doesn't cringe at the thought of saying no. It doesn't enter her mind to do so, and thus, without breaking a sweat, would not do so.

So, which do you trust and which do you not?

 

[ZenDragoness]

edited

 

[Killishandra]

Let's start with what might have been the original intent.

i'd say this describes either a warrior submissive, or one of Q-bow's paying clientele. Both know exactly what they want & need, and will not hesitate to remind a partner.

Moving on to your quote worthy of a lawyer, at first glance, the construction appears to be the counterpart of the first, a submissive that would break out in a sweat if she told you no.

One should be able to rearrange any sentence and come up with the same meaning. Stretch a little and you get the second again, but one that describes a significantly different submissive ... a sub who could, without breaking a sweat, not tell me no. She doesn't cringe at the thought of saying no. It doesn't enter her mind to do so, and thus, without breaking a sweat, would not do so.

So, which do you trust and which do you not?

Well, this question is directed at Marquis, and therefore absolutely no business of mine...

But when the hell has that ever stopped someone at Lit from butting into a conversation?

I believe he meant he would not trust a submissive who broke into a sweat at having to tell him "no." Anyone who is that insecure in themselves or that afraid to communicate their own desire or needs is probably untrustworthy. Not on the basis that they are a bad person, necessarily, but because they are wont to say whatever is necessary to avoid confrontation, and that leads to some very confusing and misguided situations. Especially in a D/s relationship where communication is so very important.

Well you spelled sentence wrong, bitch!

I'm also unsure if I spelled "necessarily" correctly up above. I believe the appraisals are seeping all true intelligence from my brain lately.

 

[Marquis]

Moving on to your quote worthy of a lawyer, at first glance, the construction appears to be the counterpart of the first, a submissive that would break out in a sweat if she told you no.

One should be able to rearrange any sentence and come up with the same meaning. Stretch a little and you get the second again, but one that describes a significantly different submissive ... a sub who could, without breaking a sweat, not tell me no. She doesn't cringe at the thought of saying no. It doesn't enter her mind to do so, and thus, without breaking a sweat, would not do so.

So, which do you trust and which do you not?

Are they different?

If she could, without breaking a sweat, not tell me no; then wouldn't it stand to reason that she would break a sweat if she were to tell me no?

Not nesasaralee I suppose, but seems heavily implied.

Please refer to my TA for any further clarifications.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Ka-ching

Especially in a D/s relationship where communication is so very important.

And the reason for my foray into dissection. Congrats on finding yet another shading btw. While the moment a partner says no may not be the most propitious time to ask why, stop what you're doing, and find out later. At the other end of the short stick, if the partner's body language screams no as well, slow down and ask. Better a false alarm than the alternative.

Some think if you have to stop and get the real meaning behind a partner's words, they've built the relationship on shaky ground. Others think partners omniscient. Here's the bullshit flag for one and all.

i don't care if a couple clicks like Ben Wa balls in a hooker's snatch late on Saturday night. Adults make adult decisions. "i didn't know," will get your ass handed to you in your hat.

 

[Marquis]

And it's no excuse in the eyes of the law either.

 

[Killishandra]

Good thoughts on communication, AA, but to get back to the post...

Let's start with what might have been the original intent.

"I wouldn't trust a sub who could tell me no without breaking a sweat."

I agree that sentences with multiple negatives can be misleading, but I disagree that Marquis' sentEnce here was at all ambiguous. Actually, I am wondering why it confused you at all, AA. If Marquis was talking about a sub that could tell him no... why, I believe he would have used the word "could" instead of the word "couldn't."

It's not a big deal. *shrug* I was just trying to clear up a misunderstanding, if there was one. Everyone makes grammar, syntax, and spelling mistakes sometimes, but I found the sentence in question highly readable.

One should be able to rearrange any sentence and come up with the same meaning.

Not necessarily true, AA, and I would expect a self-styled language nazi such as yourself to know that! Context makes a HUGE difference sometimes. Rearranging Marquis' sentence to say "I could not trust a sub who wouldn't tell me no" holds a subtle but pointedly different meaning than his original wording. Just for starters, in this case the sub is apparently capable of saying no but decides not to, as opposed to originally being "incapable" of saying no.

Incidentally, some sentences when rearranged would display an even larger discrepency from the original intent. "My dog eats his poop for dinner and I eat steak." means something quite different than "I eat his poop for dinner and my dog eats steak." One implies some form of scat play which I would much rather not be associated with. It's not my BDSM, thank you.


This thread has made me late for work.... *grumble, grumble* See you all tomorrow!