Does/should motivation for a partner's kink matter?

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[half_full]

I'm snippaging...



In many ways, we are our history. I can't think of one person I know of, who doesn't have needs (kink or otherwise) that don't have a foundation in their past. My desire/need to have art and books in my life is (in part) a reflection of my childhood. My desire/need to have a structured environment where I know the consequences of my actions (good and bad)/to please the person I'm involved with is equally grounded in my past.

Yes, agreed, but the motivations behind why you need books and structure should be of little consequence in a realtionship, no? Not necessarily true if you 'needed' to be whipped until you bled? Agree?

Sadists like what they like... masochists like what they like... I'd say (for me) it depends on the motivation. Are the people involved recreating/enforcing negative issues, or being who they are, warts and all?

Do you think it's possible for someone to engage in some of the more extreme aspects of the lifestyle, such as sadism or humiliation, and not be recreating/enforcing negative issues? Do you think someone with 'no' issues or a healthy adjustment to their issues would engage in these activities? Would you 'play' with someone who couldn't tell you why they felt or acted a certain way? I realize that this particular set of questions may not apply to you so I understand if you can't answer it.

BTW, I read the "...psyche of sadists" thread a couple of years ago. I noticed it's been bumped and am re-reading it. I may find some answers there.

IMO, it's important to match the people. Relationships are relationships are relationships. Sometimes that means recognizing that "love" comes in many many different forms...

Yes, I seem to be forgetting this, I think. People are much more than the sum of their kinks.

To me, the "yes I can meet that need"/"no way in hell" point depends on the depth of the relationship and the mental/emotional health of both parties. I thrive on structure, because it liberates me; therefore I feel I can responsibly do the structure thing, without bringing harm to myself or my Lover. I would struggle to suggest it was appropriate to do the structure thing, if my reason for wanting it was based on fear/negative issues/loathing, because (to me) that is more likely to foster an environment in which either dominant or submissive will suffer abuse.

So here you have answered my original question. If the motivation for the kink was unhealthy, you would be unwilling to engage in said activity.

Thanks again for your time.

 

[_kiana_]

With the way you're replying to the answers you have already gotten, it feels like you won't be satisfied with any answers you may still get. It's something you're working out for yourself, and with all the answers in the world that other people give you it won't be your own personal answer.

Yes, agreed, but the motivations behind why you need books and structure should be of little consequence in a realtionship, no? Not necessarily true if you 'needed' to be whipped until you bled? Agree?

I need physical pain occasionally. Regularly would very likely be much better for me. It has become a coping mechanism for life in general. If my partner and I both enjoy it, how is it wrong? Sure, I must be able to make better coping mechanisms but I love it as well as getting the relief and catharsis from it. Sometimes I will ask for pain; that's when I absolutely need it the most to cope. But I also enjoy it when it's not for that purpose.

Do you think it's possible for someone to engage in some of the more extreme aspects of the lifestyle, such as sadism or humiliation, and not be recreating/enforcing negative issues?

I'll ignore the 'more extreme' phrase since that's subjective. I love humiliation and degradation. Make me feel as small as possible, less than human, and I'll be desperately aroused and do anything to please. Having that kind of scene for play, contrasted with the 'regularity' of the relationship - the very obvious love and care that is felt for me, just shows me more that I am not actually worthless. Because I am treated that way at very certain and specific times, it is showing me that as a person, as a whole, I am very worth while etc. And I do know the worry of being worthless is from a bad place inside of me. I no longer believe that but being taken there just helps to reinforce how good I really am as a person.

Would you 'play' with someone who couldn't tell you why they felt or acted a certain way?

Who the hell knows why they do everything they do?? I don't think anyone is self aware enough to tell you their motivations behind everything. Sometimes you just have to stop thinking, stop analyzing, and just live. Just do, and be. Self awareness and introspection are good, but too much of it just leaves you missing out on life.

Ok, where the hell did the philosophical stuff come from? *looks around* I'm certainly not used to that!

 

[half_full]

If we were the way we are because we are fucked mentally from life's travels etc.,, how does that account for those of us who have had our fantasies of SM and D/s as far back as toddler and pre-school years and came from fairly average, middle class backgrounds?

Catalina

Yes! This is what I am trying to understand. I am not making judgements about people in the lifestyle, but for me it is important, and I can't tell you why, but nonetheless it is important for me to understand someone's motivation (and that includes my own) for a behavior that is a little kinked. I am trying not to make judgements about what is normal or abnormal. It is a fact, Cat, that there are alot of maladjusted people in this lifestyle. There is alot of weirdness out there. But that is not to say that everyone in the lifestyle is maladjusted in a truly harmful way. However, intuition tells me that someone who enjoys hurting or humiliating another human being has unresolved issues. My intuition could be wrong and I am open to discussing whether my position is grounded in ignorance or prejudice. But most important, I am not taking a moral or ethical position on the rightness or wrongness of someone's kink. I am only asking whether it is important to understand the motivation for it. Am I making sense?

 

[nh23]

Hello All,

I have a question about something that's been bothering me for a while and as I am still in the early stages of exploring this lifestyle, I would greatly appreciate the opinions and advice of some of the more experienced members of this forum.

I did introduce myself in the "New Faces..." thread so I'll not repost background info here, but it might be helpful to take a look at the earlier posts to help you understand where I'm coming from.

Dom(mes) - if you require a certain characteristic or kink in a sub, such as obedience, masochism, subjection to humiliation or objectification, etc., does it matter to you what his/her motivation is to oblige you? For example, if he/she is a masochist does it matter to you if his/her need for pain stems from past abuse, self hatred, erotic pleasure, or other? I'm looking for insight beyond the obvious. Of course you would not be inclined to inflict pain upon someone who as suffered previous abuse, or humiliate someone who suffers from low self esteem, right? Or no? Would you inflict pain if the primary motivation was service or obedience, even though the sub may have also experienced past abuse or self loathing? Is it more important to just match the kinks - you like to humiliate, sub likes to be humiliated, the rest is irrelevant as long as both partners needs are met?

I suppose the same question can be posed to subs. I stated in another thread that I wish I had a nickel for every time I read a post/blog/article where some sub (and occasionally Doms) mentioned that most/every/quite a few Doms they know have lingering 'issues' with women stemming from abusive maternal caregivers and feelings of emasculation. Could you submit to someone whose motivation for dominance was just this? What if he were also a sadist? Could/would you allow yourself to be humiliated by him? Once again, forget the obvious. I am not talking about a Dom who is also abusive, but it doesn't necessarily follow that every Dom who has at some time felt emasculated by a women becomes an abuser. I'm just curious to know whether the motivation for a kink matters to you.

I recognize that the answers may depend upon whether we are talking about casual play partners vs committed relationships.

Please try not to make this thread about abuse. It's been discussed many times, there are several threads, I've read them all, every post, and I get it.

I know this is alot, but I am just trying to understand, and I have questions...lots and lots of questions...

You know when I first started discovering myself and found that I am a submissive, I went insane trying to analyze my life to see if there were reasons in my past that made me that way. Not because I felt guilty for having these desires, just because I tend to get obsessed over the why's of human behavior. Not only my own. Take a pedophile for example. If I could only figure out what happened to them in childhood to make them like that, then maybe I could understand why they have left so many of us victims. I picked my life apart. Have I found reasons for the way I am? Maybe.. But, what I learned more importantly for me..is that it really doesn't matter. So, I enjoy pain, I love to be dominated. Should I continue to sit around and ponder why I enjoy these..or just sit back, relax, and enjoy the show. I much prefer to just enjoy the show. As far as my partners go, it's the same approach. I'm sure there are reasons for them being Dominant. I may even discuss it with them. But, ultimately the reasons don't matter any more than mine do. If I trust him not to hurt me, and have some type of connection then that's all that matters.

 

[Netzach]

Hypothetically speaking, if there could ever be a 'magic' couch or pill, that would instantly wipe the emotional slate clean - as clean as the day you were born - would you choose this lifestyle?

Yes.

If you could have a Cliff and Claire Huxtable kind of marriage, would you want it?

Not merely no but hell no. For myriad reasons. I do not privilege the institution of hetero marriage and it's because mine is so outside the lines of how it's "supposed to be" that I even entertained the thought for myself.

Is there something this lifestyle offers that goes beyond transference of our issues? Do think someone who is the 'picture of perfect mental health" would find any enjoyment or fullfillment in this lifestyle?

I don't know. Call me if you ever meet one. The people I've met close to that ideal are pretty uninteresting, and tend to function really well in corporate environments and wear ironed polo shirts, but a lot of them have a whole lot more going on behind the scenes, too, I'm sure.

Question: why does it come as a kind of relief to people to feel free of anything that might "make them this way?" Is the person who just popped out into a perfectly happy middle class atmosphere perverted better than the person who has interrogated their dysfunction, embraced it and said "yep, so what, it's me?"

 

[half_full]

It's a process... a little more blunt and up front than your average dating scene, but a process... Within a week of meeting someone new (with potential) I'll have asked how many years they've been involved in power based relationships, why those relationships ended, if they've been more of a "public" participant (done lecture series/munches/events) or private, and they'll ask the same things from me. You get a feel for someone... gradually ask about things like do you enjoy ___, how do you feel about ___, etc. You get to know the person, and sometimes in the process of discussing totally boring things, a kinky question will pop into the conversation or you'll start discussing something D/s based that will give an opportunity to see how their mind operates.

I'm a big fan of meeting for coffee within a week or two. I have to look in a guy's eyes and feel his energy before I'll stop discussing things from a theoretical perspective and discuss things from an "this is what I know about me/what I need" perspective. However, 85% of conversations I have with potential partners are about life. "How'd you get into the field you're in, what are your hobbies, I saw the coolest exhibit the other day, I heard X report on the radio the other day, how was work?" sorts of conversations, with an undercurrent of kink always in the background.

No problems here. I would say this is pretty common sense stuff. I am even aware that there are checklists and questionaires out there that people use to determine capatibility. I personally would not use them, it's not my style. I prefer the old fashion way - talking. I'm just trying to educate myself so that when/if the time comes, I can ask the right questions. Thanks again.

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[half_full]

I don't know. Call me if you ever meet one. The people I've met close to that ideal are pretty uninteresting, and tend to function really well in corporate environments and wear ironed polo shirts, but a lot of them have a whole lot more going on behind the scenes, too, I'm sure.

LOL! It's me, it's me! I am that person you speak of, to a tee! I was an executive for a Fortune 50 technology firm on the west coast a few years ago, boring to everyone else who wasn't also a corporate lackey, wore my Evan-Picone suits and carried my Coach briefcase. I stayed celebate for nearly 14 years climbing the coporate ladder, drinking my mocha lattes, spouting my pompous bullshit about market shares and cap ex spending. It has taken me three years just to admit that I am deeply submissive. God how I have wasted my life. You really hit the nail on the head with this one. Thanks for that.

Question: why does it come as a kind of relief to people to feel free of anything that might "make them this way?"

I don't think this is quite true, not for me anyway. I want to understand what makes me this way, but absolution of responsibility for it, no.

Is the person who just popped out into a perfectly happy middle class atmosphere perverted better than the person who has interrogated their dysfunction, embraced it and said "yep, so what, it's me?"

Not better, no. But for someone like me who admittedly is very naive and inexperienced with relationships in general and D/s specifically, I want to know which of those two types of perverts I'm dealing with. This is not the playground for the weak, stupid, or uninformed, right?

 

[half_full]

Disagree.



Yes, I happen to really enjoy humiliation.



Yes, and I do.



I evaluate the entire person, not his kinks. The men with whom I have developed those sorts of Friendships, are rarely able to explain thair dominant sadistic desires beyond "Because it's hot; because I love it; because I can."

[/QUOTE]
Wow, ok. I am certainly prepared to re-think my position. Do you think you and the Dominants you've known are the exception, not the rule?

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[half_full]

Prove to me that you can't have a "Cliff and Claire Huxtable" kind of marriage/relationship AND be kinky as hell. (hint - there are people who essentially do have that...)

Prove to me that behind closed doors, Cliff and Claire walked a straight and narrow sexual path.

Good point. I accept that it is indeed possible to have a happy healthy kinky marriage. I was posing the question to those individuals who admit and accept that the lifestyle is an extension of their un-resolved issues. I know that doesn't apply to everyone and I should have made that more clear. Sorry.

I wouldn't ID as "the picture of perfect mental health", but I can tell you I have about 90-95% of my shit together, which is a hell of a lot more than a lot of "vanilla" people do. I know how to own my shit, how to communicate, how to set boundaries, how to not get walked over, how to stand up for myself, how to ask for (and expect) my needs to be met, how to be compassionate/empathetic/sympathetic, how to walk away from a bad situation... and yet I choose "the lifestyle", because anything less is a pale imitation of intimacy, for me.

I think a lot of your confusion may stem from not understanding that for some people (possibly the majority) there is a hell of a lot of love, intimacy, adoration, etc in BDSM. As I explain it to the men I date - romance is not a dozen roses with a Hallmark card attached; romance is using me however you see fit, because we both know that is our path to intimacy.

So for you it's about defining and experiencing intimacy. I am aware that submitting to another can be a deeply intimate act. So I don't think confusion is my problem; it's more like fear. Thanks for sharing that with me. It gives me yet another thing to think about.

 

[half_full]

I'm sure there are reasons for them being Dominant. I may even discuss it with them. But, ultimately the reasons don't matter any more than mine do. If I trust him not to hurt me, and have some type of connection then that's all that matters.

You answered my question honestly, and I thank you for that. For me personally, I cannot trust so freely the way you have. Trust without due dillegence is not trust at all for me, it's blind faith. I have not had that much faith in someone in many years. Maybe that's part of my problem, you think? Too much dilligence, not enough faith.

 

[nh23]

You answered my question honestly, and I thank you for that. For me personally, I cannot trust so freely the way you have. Trust without due dillegence is not trust at all for me, it's blind faith. I have not had that much faith in someone in many years. Maybe that's part of my problem, you think? Too much dilligence, not enough faith.

Lol.. Trust is NOT easy for me. Blind faith..never. That being said IF I trust a partner not to hurt me..then we go from there. Knowing the reason someone is like they are has nothing to do with trust. The reasons that make me kinky don't compromise me as a person. They do not make me less trustworthy. They are just events that happened in my past..or the way my brain was wired.

 

[Netzach]

LOL! It's me, it's me! I am that person you speak of, to a tee! I was an executive for a Fortune 50 technology firm on the west coast a few years ago, boring to everyone else who wasn't also a corporate lackey, wore my Evan-Picone suits and carried my Coach briefcase. I stayed celebate for nearly 14 years climbing the coporate ladder, drinking my mocha lattes, spouting my pompous bullshit about market shares and cap ex spending. It has taken me three years just to admit that I am deeply submissive. God how I have wasted my life. You really hit the nail on the head with this one. Thanks for that.
I don't think this is quite true, not for me anyway. I want to understand what makes me this way, but absolution of responsibility for it, no. Not better, no. But for someone like me who admittedly is very naive and inexperienced with relationships in general and D/s specifically, I want to know which of those two types of perverts I'm dealing with. This is not the playground for the weak, stupid, or uninformed, right?

Oh, ok. Cool. I think I feel you on this one. Your whole life you have probably bought the idea that someone can't have this really warped sexuality unless something is indeed wrong with them. Oh, they may be decent people, but there's some trauma or some weird deviant from the norm narrative that makes them the way they are. I bought it too, to an extent, I think, but I've always existed in the art world - warped sexuality is interesting discourse rather than something to be avoided. I definitely don't want someone to be beating on me in the anger of the moment, personally, and I definitely don't want to spend a LOT of time on the parts of myself that want to beat on someone in the heat of anger. Maybe just enough time to see that they're still there, acknowledge them and put them away again.

I've tended to acertain safety from talking as much as I could to people. Bottoms/subs can be plenty dangerous too if set off wrong. But I'll admit, I take risks in my scenes. Emotional and psychological more than physical, because that's what lights my fire.

 

[Netzach]

You answered my question honestly, and I thank you for that. For me personally, I cannot trust so freely the way you have. Trust without due dillegence is not trust at all for me, it's blind faith. I have not had that much faith in someone in many years. Maybe that's part of my problem, you think? Too much dilligence, not enough faith.

Hang onto that and you may not be one of those legions of people boo hooing their loss of Dominant ten minutes into the next rel.

 

[rida]

You answered my question honestly, and I thank you for that. For me personally, I cannot trust so freely the way you have. Trust without due dillegence is not trust at all for me, it's blind faith. I have not had that much faith in someone in many years. Maybe that's part of my problem, you think? Too much dilligence, not enough faith.

I was lucky that the D/s relationship came on top of an existing solid marriage, so didn't need to interview for a Dom at first. But our relationship has changed and is evolving and as part of a search/growth process I am entertaining, with Hubby's approval of course, the idea of exploring D/s outside of the marriage boundaries.
I actually think that it is very important to do due diligence. Blind faith is dangerous even in vanilla relationships, lol! Maybe is just the type of questions that need to be changed a bit?

I'd recommend at least looking at/going over a checklist for your own edification. I don't use checklists with Lovers (we tend to do the million hours of talking thing, instead), but I do run through them once a year for myself, so I can evaluate where my soft limits might have shifted, what I might be interested in now, or see if something catches my attention I'd never though of before. It's just a research tool like any other.

This is very good advise. The first time I was asked to fill the list ... I didn't even want to see it. But I did it and basically everything was either a hard limit or a soft limit. I was not ready to embrace my feelings yet, but it gave me a lot of food for thought and a lot of thing to talk/discuss with my Hubby/Dom.

I am also very new to all of this and understand where you, half_full come from. I too tend to over-analize the why of human behaviours.

Part of accepting to be a submissive, for me, is to let go of the need of over-analizing, questioning every action, word, trying to explain it in a rational contest, etc. Part of the appeal that being submissive have to me is that I can let go. Just being able to feel, and to be ... yes, a bit fucked-up too.
(unresolved issued with my parents? not that I can think off ... beside the fact that I do not understand how they can live with their un-happy marriage ...)

 

[half_full]

The occasional bad night and the truly fucked up are two totally different things. Anybody with half a brain can look at that and tell the difference. The problem is the gray area in between, and there's a LOT of gray area.

First, I'd like to modify our language a bit here. 'Fuck-up' is the term Netzach used in responding to the OP. I understood what she meant, I wasn't offended, and was generally OK with it as it was her assessment. It wasn't the words I used, but as we all know, words matter. This term is now being propogated throughout the thread and is serving no purpose but to inflame people. I'd rather say 'maladjusted' referring only to those people who may have unresolved mental/emotional issues, rather than saying everyone who is kinky is fucked-up. I'm sure you'll agree that this is a more productive approach.

You're obviously not going to ask anybody if they're fucked up the first time you meet them.

true...

I don't have any specific deal-breakers, but the other person has to be somewhat sound of mind. Like Netz said, I'm neither God nor therapist, and I don't want to be.

Netzach said this in a very specific context. She feels that she doesn't want to know nor does it really matter to her the motivations of the men willing to kiss her ass. So I assume you take the same position. There is no right or wrong answer here. I will thoughtfully consider all answers and then determine whether I am flawed in my own thinking or asked the right questions.

I don't know if that answered your question(s) or not....I tried.

It was a good start. I got a sense that this was something you hadn't given much thought to until now. But that's OK, too. It's all good.

 

[FurryFury]

I'm not so worried about why they want or need it as I am about my partner doing something solely to please me and NOT because he wants to.

I think it really is irritating how people want to say, "Oh they must have been abused or something to be gay or into BDSM" and I think that's crap logic.

Yes, some people who are gay or into BDSM have been abused or have mental problems but certainly not ALL of them or even the majority. Take any segment of the population and you will find the same things.

Further while knowing and/or analyzing the why of something can be nice at times, it can also confuse the issue which is they like this NOW for whatever reason. That's the bottom line. That's the is-ness of what we are dealing with.

Now unless you are afraid of them pulling a "Heche" I do see the point necessarily of knowing all that and angsting over it.

Those that try too hard to protect themselves rarely open up themselves to the fullness of what they could have in life and that not only sucks, it's sad.

*wonders if I'm in a bad mood and should soften this message*

Naaaaw

I'm Fury and I approved this message.

 

[BiBunny]

First, I'd like to modify our language a bit here. 'Fuck-up' is the term Netzach used in responding to the OP. I understood what she meant, I wasn't offended, and was generally OK with it as it was her assessment. It wasn't the words I used, but as we all know, words matter. This term is now being propogated throughout the thread and is serving no purpose but to inflame people. I'd rather say 'maladjusted' referring only to those people who may have unresolved mental/emotional issues, rather than saying everyone who is kinky is fucked-up. I'm sure you'll agree that this is a more productive approach.

true...Netzach said this in a very specific context. She feels that she doesn't want to know nor does it really matter to her the motivations of the men willing to kiss her ass. So I assume you take the same position. There is no right or wrong answer here. I will thoughtfully consider all answers and then determine whether I am flawed in my own thinking or asked the right questions.

It was a good start. I got a sense that this was something you hadn't given much thought to until now. But that's OK, too. It's all good.

Wow. Talk about totally missing the point, putting words in my mouth, AND being condescending. Cool points for you!

 

[JMohegan]

It has taken me three years just to admit that I am deeply submissive.

I am curious about two things.

What do you mean when you say that you are "submissive"?

And how do you know?

 

[half_full]

With the way you're replying to the answers you have already gotten, it feels like you won't be satisfied with any answers you may still get.

How so? I've been satisfied with most answers. Sometimes I ask for clarification or have to restate the question or ask a followup question. I am not looking for a right or wrong answer, I am just trying to understand.

It's something you're working out for yourself, and with all the answers in the world that other people give you it won't be your own personal answer.

If you mean by this that I already know the answer and I won't be satisfied unless people agree with me, then I think you have taken too much out of context. It is true that I started with some assumptions, but I was hoping that thoughtful discourse would help me confirm or deny them.

I need physical pain occasionally. Regularly would very likely be much better for me. It has become a coping mechanism for life in general.

OK, so coping is your motivation for your Masochism. I have no problem with that.

If my partner and I both enjoy it, how is it wrong?

Who said it was wrong? I have never made a single statement in this thread about the rightness or wrongness of someones kink. I make no moral judgements about such things, ever.

Sure, I must be able to make better coping mechanisms...

It sounds to me like you are defending your kink. No need, it's not about that.

I'll ignore the 'more extreme' phrase since that's subjective.

You are right, that is very subjective. I should have found a better way to say what I wanted.

I love humiliation and degradation. Make me feel as small as possible, less than human, and I'll be desperately aroused and do anything to please. Having that kind of scene for play, contrasted with the 'regularity' of the relationship - the very obvious love and care that is felt for me, just shows me more that I am not actually worthless. Because I am treated that way at very certain and specific times, it is showing me that as a person, as a whole, I am very worth while etc. And I do know the worry of being worthless is from a bad place inside of me.

This is the motivation I was speaking of in the original OP. A Dom who either didn't want to know this about you or didn't care to know could potentially do your psyche great harm, right? Some degradation/humiliation is endearing, erotic and fun, but some can be hurtful and mean spirited. If a Dom did not care to know your motivation, would you set hard or soft limits to protect your own self? Just curious.

Who the hell knows why they do everything they do?? I don't think anyone is self aware enough to tell you their motivations behind everything.

I would agree, but when it comes to things that could potentially do us or someone else great harm, we have an obligation to 'know thyself'.

Sometimes you just have to stop thinking, stop analyzing, and just live. Just do, and be. Self awareness and introspection are good, but too much of it just leaves you missing out on life.

Agree completely and I can honestly say I've experienced this first hand.

Ok, where the hell did the philosophical stuff come from? *looks around* I'm certainly not used to that!

It's good for you. You should do it more often.

 

[half_full]

I would say for the vast majority of people doing this, your intuition is wrong. You're viewing things from a "vanilla"/traditional modern relationship model, rather than a BDSM model.

Maybe the Dom likes flogging his partner because she enjoys it. Maybe he likes it because he knows it will give her an adrenaline rush/endorphin dump, and she will be happily buzzing for hours. Maybe he likes putting her in a stress position because she looks beautiful that way. Maybe he likes pulling off the nipple clamps at the exact moment of her climax, because he knows it will ramp up her orgasm to spectacular proportions...

Maybe she likes humiliation because it takes her out of her head. Maybe it enables her to look at herself in a way she normally can't. Maybe she finds it liberating. Maybe it fills her need to be of service to her lover.

I know there are purely selfish reasons to engage in kink, and I know there are unselfish reasons, such as the ones you stated above. In an ideal situation, both parties would get something from the exchange. After spending a whole day thinking about this, one of the conclusions I've come to is that when it comes to kink activity that could potentially do me harm, it would be absolutely necessary for me to know what he is getting out of it. How submissive is that really? It sounds to me like someone who still wants to be in control. Ey, yi, yi. It gives me a headache.