Don't you agree?

[00Syd]

Not at all!

We understand that you absolutely must do whatever we desire, and we are so willing to hold you to that it's not even funny.

I speak for all Doms, everywhere.

Hahahaha, that made me laugh.

Marquis, your all right in my book.

 

[Marquis]

I mean, you make a living with the power of the all mighty vagina.

woah, i definitely can't cosign that note.

 

[RJMasters]

woah, i definitely can't cosign that note.

lol I don't exprect you to.

Netz is beloved and despite many of the double standards she often embues I still think she is ok, I just don't feel like jumping through her hoops today or her telling me where my boundaries are suppose to be.

If she is going to imply judgemental statements, then I have no problem sending it back.

All I meant by that statement was that she both in her professional and personal life uses the power of being a woman which often amounts to the exact same thing as dickery(with plenty of her own words admitting as such througout threads all over this forum). I don't have a problem with the actual going on of it all, I just have a problem when she makes a statement implyng what she did.

Sry for making a ruckus in your thread.

 

[JMohegan]

So true, personally i get bored with too much nice stuff... leaves me feeling cold and distant, not to mention bratty coz I'm wondering why they have no motivation to really get inside my head.

This is like asking: If he loves me so much, why won't he write beautiful love poetry to express his feelings for me? If your mate is Robert Browning, that would be a very good question! But what if he's an average guy - with neither a capacity for, nor an interest in, composing poems? Then a much better question would be: How does this individual express himself?

I have neither the capacity for, nor an interest in, mindfucks. I am a straightforward, literal, concrete, tangible kind of a guy. This orientation has a major impact on all aspects of my interpersonal relations, including my sadism, which expresses itself in a physical way.

This has nothing to do with lack of motivation, disinterest in a partner specifically or sex in general, etc. It's just the way I am.

The bottom line here has nothing to do with motivation and everything to do with picking a good match. Because if can't imagine a satisfying relationship without great poetry, then you really need to date a Robert Browning. And if you can't imagine great sex without a mindfuck, then you should never even start dating a guy like me.

 

[Marquis]

Sry for making a ruckus in your thread.

Not at all, Marquis like a good ruckus, I just wanted to throw my two cents in!

If anything, I'm hoping Netzach can be lured back in here for more discussion. I often wonder as to her feelings on some of this stuff.

How palatable is it for her to hear about mdom/fsub dynamics all the time without eventually rolling her eyes. I mean, some of the shit just can't translate, but I still think a lot more of it does than doesn't.

One of my favorite BDSM writers is Jack Rinella. He is a leatherman, but I can get behind almost everything he says. Every once in a while he starts talking about tasting your own cum while jacking it and I gotta skip the next few lines, but other than that we're pretty much on the same page.

In the intro to his "Master's Manual" he says:

First, SM is no place (in fact there is NO place) for racism, sexism, ageism, or classism. I have tried to keep my pronouns reflective of the fact that SM is for males and females and those who defy gender categorization. Therefore, I someimes write "he or she", sometimes :"they:", sometimes "master" or "mistress." All the gender-bending semantics can get burdensome, so please bear with me. I mean to include all of you, as you are, and if someimes I sound a little too male, forgive me, but that's me.
My last therapist assured me I was well-adjusted. As such I am a happy gay male. But SM knows no restrictions as to race, creed, color, ehtnic origins, or sexual orientation. Enjoy it, whoever you are.

 

[Marquis]

This is like asking: If he loves me so much, why won't he write beautiful love poetry to express his feelings for me? If your mate is Robert Browning, that would be a very good question! But what if he's an average guy - with neither a capacity for, nor an interest in, composing poems? Then a much better question would be: How does this individual express himself?

I have neither the capacity for, nor an interest in, mindfucks. I am a straightforward, literal, concrete, tangible kind of a guy. This orientation has a major impact on all aspects of my interpersonal relations, including my sadism, which expresses itself in a physical way.

This has nothing to do with lack of motivation, disinterest in a partner specifically or sex in general, etc. It's just the way I am.

The bottom line here has nothing to do with motivation and everything to do with picking a good match. Because if can't imagine a satisfying relationship without great poetry, then you really need to date a Robert Browning. And if you can't imagine great sex without a mindfuck, then you should never even start dating a guy like me.

I'd say I'm a very physical dominant as well. My suspicion is that you might be physically stronger than I, making the kind of physical domination I have in mind a little easier for you. I'm actually in the best shape of my life, but I've never been... like super strong.

I do notice my enthusiasm for some of the more physical aspects of domination to be increasing along with my bench weight, but I think a fixation on elaborate emotional scheming will always be with me.

I remember reading a story about you fucking a young debutante on a bed of her father's expensive suits. I think you have to admit there is more than a little mindfuck going on there. What made it so memorable for me was this idea of taking a girl away from her (biological) daddy. Girls are so attached to their father's generally that forcing them to choose your needs as more important is well...... holds a lot of erotic potential for me.

 

[Homburg]

I'd say I'm a very physical dominant as well. My suspicion is that you might be physically stronger than I, making the kind of physical domination I have in mind a little easier for you. I'm actually in the best shape of my life, but I've never been... like super strong.

I do notice my enthusiasm for some of the more physical aspects of domination to be increasing along with my bench weight, but I think a fixation on elaborate emotional scheming will always be with me.

Do you find that the strength actually helps you in this area, or just the additional confidence?

I ask because I've increased in strength quite a bit over the past year or so, and I am still trying to decide if the strength itself is handy. It probably is, and I've just not noticed it. The enhanced physical competence, and confidence, is dead handy. Just not sure about the strength itself.

Admittedly, this is a bit of mental wankery. You're not going to gain the confidence without gaining strength. I'm just trying to examine the issue in its' aspects.

I will say that the perception of strength certainly helps the power dynamic. That much is true.

I remember reading a story about you fucking a young debutante on a bed of her father's expensive suits. I think you have to admit there is more than a little mindfuck going on there. What made it so memorable for me was this idea of taking a girl away from her (biological) daddy. Girls are so attached to their father's generally that forcing them to choose your needs as more important is well...... holds a lot of erotic potential for me.

I remember that one. Very hot story. The imagery was spot on.

 

[intothewoods]

I remember reading a story about you fucking a young debutante on a bed of her father's expensive suits. I think you have to admit there is more than a little mindfuck going on there. <snip>

I was thinking the same thing - that I recall that story, and also a post in the whimsical dominations thread. Something about reciting something perfectly...or singing.

 

[Netzach]

For what it worth, from a very newbie sub point of view:

The pay off from the sort of mindfuck game that was outlined by Marquis is not that I would then be valued & petted. And I'd also hate to find that he/she was someone who pushed my buttons & then walked away for good. It would hopefully result in the Dom(me) feeling 10ft tall and invincible and because of this becoming the Pig you all mentioned and making even more demands of me.

I personally don't want to be too appreciated (I know I could say that better but my barin isn't working). Any "personal growth" would come form being dominated & used for His enjoyment and have even more limits pushed. Considering that's what he does best it's a win-win situation.

Ideally, once I had pushed a new limit, tell me I did well and even though you're a Pig & don't care about rewarding me all the time, my reward would be you reaching for the lube & having your way with me. Can I help it that what you do just to please yourslef also pleases me?

The world needs more like you.

 

[Netzach]

If you had a dick, don't you think it probably would?

Goals suck.

A guy at a convention once talked about elaborate interrogation scenes. He explained why he would never play with the goal of finding out a particular secret.

Only a sucker plays a game they can't win.

Valid point, valid question. I do have one when I want one, though that's not entirely the same, and Jesus some people get literal. I simply mean that my animal brain 10 foot tall sense of sexual triumph isn't really propped by that other person feeling like this fucking is making him OR HER a better person or is tied to that. The less "about them" the better.

 

[Netzach]

Oh I don't know, I tend to think often that you have a whole palace complete with a throne built on that pedestal Netz. I mean, you make a living with the power of the all mighty vagina.

If you don't want to pay homage to the power of the phallus its no skin off my nose and don't really care, but to say your not up on pedestal of sexual power(regardless of your weapon of choice) is an epic blind spot. We're talking full eclipse here.

Exploits of your dicking is all over this forum and in the cafe.

I guess what your saying is, that when Dominant women share their exploits of dickery of men as if they are nothing more than ego/cocks simpletons, that is perfectly ok, but if Dominant men speak of dickery, we are somehow on a pedestal hatching involved plots to achieve sinister ends?


lol I guess I am guilty as charged.

You can go hunt down some kind of double standard all you want. When I see a FemDom pretending that ramming a dildo up a man's ass makes him a better more refined human being and she's merely a servant of his psychic needs I have to laugh just as hard. You won't have to read things like that much around here, though, because few possible suspects float around.

You don't seem to get it so let me make it clear:

I ram ass because I like to ram ass.

If H feels like I've made a better person of him, I think it has more to do with other activities.

I'm not even going to respond to the completely ad hominem and irrelevant parts of this post here.

 

[closerIam]

So, you make the sub say something that would be very (*very*) hard to admit to, or perhaps something they just disagreed with very (*very*) strongly.
. . . . . . . . .
She should be in tune with you enough now that she is getting closer and closer to saying it almost exactly like you are. Her empathy switches are all flipped and she is channeling your emotions with nary a delay. Move slowly and offer her both pain and comfort to keep her absolutely focused. Wait until she repeats it back to you with more sincere, passioned sincerity than you just said it to her.

6. Ask her to elaborate on the phrase. Use it as a clause in a longer sentence. Insist that the sentence speak positively about the phrase. Resistance is lower here. The atmosphere is now clinical.

7. Ask her to give a short speech, extolling the truth and virtue of the original phrase. Lighten up a bit. Smile. A little humor is fine, but keep the crop close by. Don't lose control in the last leg, just show her how well she's doing, and how pleased you are.

8. Question her. No need to interrogate, just confirm that she really means the statement as much as she now realizes that she does.

I'm so new to the 'idea' of D/s...but am discovering it fits me very well. I've never before even thought the things that are now wandering around in my brain...the things I'm being asked to admit...to say aloud...to agree with. Often times I go totally silent...unable to utter a single word... Ooohhh....shiver, fidget, blush....and yes...He's (sometimes) smiling as He asks me once again to say it aloud...and convince Him I mean it...

The more I read here in the BDSM section of Lit, the more I 'get' it....and the less alone I feel. NONE of my friends would understand. I'm just beginning to understand. Thanks Marquis for this great post and to everyone else for responding...

 

[Netzach]

Not at all, Marquis like a good ruckus, I just wanted to throw my two cents in!

If anything, I'm hoping Netzach can be lured back in here for more discussion. I often wonder as to her feelings on some of this stuff.

How palatable is it for her to hear about mdom/fsub dynamics all the time without eventually rolling her eyes. I mean, some of the shit just can't translate, but I still think a lot more of it does than doesn't.

One of my favorite BDSM writers is Jack Rinella. He is a leatherman, but I can get behind almost everything he says. Every once in a while he starts talking about tasting your own cum while jacking it and I gotta skip the next few lines, but other than that we're pretty much on the same page.

In the intro to his "Master's Manual" he says:

The only eyerolling that occurs is really at times when someone seems to have a huge problem with MY desire and my presence and my begging to differ in the 1/10th of the time that a FDom perspective gets floated around here, not to mention I find it funny because my perspective is one of Sado Asshole more than nice Mommy, and I affiliate better with MDoms on the whole. Probably why I do stick around here.

But it's fine. RJ usually attributes any disagreements I have with him to my genitals and not my brain. The power of being a woman is something I won't deny having, but it's the tip of a much larger iceberg - there are far more feminine people in the world, which may be the problem.

I'm not telling anyone where their boundaries *should* be - I'm doing what RJ did so graciously to BiBunny above him - adding MY perspective to the mix because I feel like it's corrective or additive to the mix.

The assumption that MOST femsubs want a certain kind of Daddying and "training" and modification instead of just being a fuckhole isn't always a safe one. I see femsubs who want the latter more adrift in this culture because many people will not admit that the former is a kink and a variation and not "better than" anything else. The irony is that my persepctive as a FDom with male pets isn't even the one I was thinking about at all here, rather as a Dominant who plays with and has had female ones.

 

[Primalex]

Looks like this is another thing I won't be able to grok.

I can see the fun in the "Tell me how much you are a slut" or other confessional types of interrogation or pushing a sub to her dirty language border. But just using the dominance to get the sub to agree to something? This is as artistic as the inquisition. "You are a witch!" "No, I'm not." "Oh, there goes your first finger. Now confess you are a witch!" "Arrghh"..."Wrong answer, you will be good with three fingers, too, so.. " "Now confess you are a witch or I'll cut off the whole hand..". "Yes, I'm a witch and I live in a gingerbread house!" "This doesn't sound very convincing..next round"

It's just a matter of pressure and this is the reason why torture isn't allowed, because in the end you will confess everything. But being able to change the mind of someone without measly tricks like sleep deprivation or methods of dominance - this is something adorable in my point of view.

*shrugs*

(As a footnote, a narcissist doesn't require someone else. This is the whole point of narcism.)

 

[Marquis]

Valid point, valid question. I do have one when I want one, though that's not entirely the same, and Jesus some people get literal. I simply mean that my animal brain 10 foot tall sense of sexual triumph isn't really propped by that other person feeling like this fucking is making him OR HER a better person or is tied to that. The less "about them" the better.

I read this book about pimping once that had a lot of pimps saying essentially that if you need your dick to control your hos, you ain't exactly a pimp.

The only eyerolling that occurs is really at times when someone seems to have a huge problem with MY desire and my presence and my begging to differ in the 1/10th of the time that a FDom perspective gets floated around here, not to mention I find it funny because my perspective is one of Sado Asshole more than nice Mommy, and I affiliate better with MDoms on the whole.

You can't do this Netzach, this is totally my line! I'm always telling people I affiliate better with FDoms and for the same reason!

You know I respect your right to speak up for your differences and admire your right to do so. Again, my experience with dominant women of any kind is not super high, but my experience with dominant gay men is enough to where I can still laugh hearty when the pronouns don't actually reflect what's going on in my bedroom.

When I write about my experiences, I'm fully aware that my language is reflective of my own world. But being part of the majority, I wish there was a way to express this knowledge to my audience without taking away the rawness of it.

But it's fine. RJ usually attributes any disagreements I have with him to my genitals and not my brain. The power of being a woman is something I won't deny having, but it's the tip of a much larger iceberg - there are far more feminine people in the world, which may be the problem.

I think there is a little bit of that going on here. At the same time, please realize that straight men are so emasculated in the society that we currently live in, it is sometimes difficult not to be a little overprotective of our dicks. This is something we may never be able to see perfectly eye to eye on, but I'm sure you can feel me on this one a bit. Put it this way, at least you're open about what you do and what you're about. Clandestine chauvinistic dogma claims victims on both sides of the gender aisle and maybe more on one side than the other, but tell that to an individual victim, ya dig?

 

[Homburg]

The assumption that MOST femsubs want a certain kind of Daddying and "training" and modification instead of just being a fuckhole isn't always a safe one. I see femsubs who want the latter more adrift in this culture because many people will not admit that the former is a kink and a variation and not "better than" anything else. The irony is that my persepctive as a FDom with male pets isn't even the one I was thinking about at all here, rather as a Dominant who plays with and has had female ones.

I, for one, approve of willing fuckholes. Training and modification happen, but are incidental, not per direct intent. This is probably why I just did not get "Story of O" and the like. If I have to train a sub to fucking kneel, we're not a good match. No, I don't expect them pre-trained, I just expect them to have the proper natural urge that informs the desire to kneel.

Then again, I don't get a lot of verbage used. Teaching someone to submit is just a non-starter for me. Either be a submissive, or don't. I don't have time to decide it for you =P

 

[Netzach]

I think there is a little bit of that going on here. At the same time, please realize that straight men are so emasculated in the society that we currently live in, it is sometimes difficult not to be a little overprotective of our dicks. This is something we may never be able to see perfectly eye to eye on, but I'm sure you can feel me on this one a bit. Put it this way, at least you're open about what you do and what you're about. Clandestine chauvinistic dogma claims victims on both sides of the gender aisle and maybe more on one side than the other, but tell that to an individual victim, ya dig?

*sigh*

nicely done.

Have you considered going into mediation?

 

[Netzach]

(As a footnote, a narcissist doesn't require someone else. This is the whole point of narcism.)

They don't?

In the myth dude had a mirror. I think they make other people into them.

 

[Netzach]

You can't do this Netzach, this is totally my line! I'm always telling people I affiliate better with FDoms and for the same reason!

Well all this does is support my theory that the more interesting schism in SM is not between tops and bottoms not between men and women, but between nurture and destruction as impulses.

 

[TeachMeSir]

......

 

[callinectes]

I was thinking the same thing - that I recall that story, and also a post in the whimsical dominations thread. Something about reciting something perfectly...or singing.

Nods. Don't forget the one where she was ordered to call him a fucking bastard. She called red. IMHO, that qualifies. I think JM is is pulling a mind fuck on us by saying he doesn't do mind fucks.

 

[Netzach]

I also find myself thinking about this with regard to my own Top.

I do have a worshipful and reverent feeling about his body, and his maleness. I do feel that small safe cherished and adored thing that is waxed about all the time.

But in terms of *training* me or *making me better* - that's things like calling him up for his opinion about where the precious metals market is going today, getting my work done around my house, taking care of M - being the best me I can be with him in mind.

Being total hedonists in bed is great bonding, but it's not training, to me. He can make me into whatever kind of animal or not that he likes and it's good by me.

 

[callinectes]

When I first read the OP I thought "what a bunch of crap". Then it occurred to me that this very same thing has been done to me on a couple of occasions..and it worked very nicely. Now that is a mind fuck. lol

sigh..I really need to pay better attention.

 

[Netzach]

Nods. Don't forget the one where she was ordered to call him a fucking bastard. She called red. IMHO, that qualifies. I think JM is is pulling a mind fuck on us by saying he doesn't do mind fucks.

Heh.

Not to speak for him, but there are mind fucks and there's fucking with someone's mind.

I think it seems to me that the bottom in these cases has some general gist of where it's going, nothing is totally out of the blue, and more importantly in this case the rules aren't ever-changing and arbitrary - there's a structure here.

Personally I like both kinds of mind game in their time and place. Just because I do.

 

[Marquis]

The more I read here in the BDSM section of Lit, the more I 'get' it....and the less alone I feel. NONE of my friends would understand. I'm just beginning to understand. Thanks Marquis for this great post and to everyone else for responding...

*sigh*

This sort of thing is really important to me closer.

Thanks.