Ethics and Erotica

[AwkwardMD]

Oh, wait, for Asian characters? I guess I didn't catch the cultural nuance.

But, to be fair, it was a far-future setting, and I don't know much about China proper and even less about Singapore, and I skimmed a bunch (pill-driven dicks squick me out, apparently).

It mostly struck me like Firefly at the time, using a few snippets of Chinese profanity for color. Although you used real Chinese profanity and didn't have anyone roasting dog meat, which is miles ahead of Firefly!

It was a fun story, regardless.

More focus on Singapore than China, yeah

 

[TarnishedPenny]

That was an interesting watch, thanks! I'm not big into any fandoms, haven't followed that scene at all, but her info on Evil Lesbians hit home. Just have to remind myself to never kill off any of my villains..

Thank you so much for the recommendations! I'll get to read them tomorrow! But only 1 in 15 years is... shocking.
-
Swapping back to movies and TV, I think the only time I've felt something was really spot on for me, personally, is this scene from King of the Hill. "We're laotian! From Laos! Stupid..."

You could also try Chloe Tzang.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

1. Do you accept the idea that there are ethical limits on what kind of erotica you should publish? Why or why not? What are those limits?

I accept Laurel’s rules on bestiality, snuff, under 18 and so forth, but that’s not an ‘ethical’ choice for me, any more than not running red lights is an ‘ethical’ choice for me to keep my driver’s licence.

Outside of that, I accept that many of the fantasies explored here could indeed have negative consequences where they played out IRL, but I still support the authors being able to publish. For example, IRL incest is almost always sexual assault and generally with a serious power disparity element. Fine, but that’s has little to do with the (IMO quite icky) depiction of mother-and-son sex.

This is a fantasy world. We don’t generally consider pregnancy, STDs, etc, even though IRL such things should be considered by every adult. My point is that we are not bound by IRL consequences.


2. Do you believe that your stories are likely to have an impact beyond the space of this forum? What kind of impact? Why do you believe what you believe on this question?

Impact, yes, of course. It is my hope and desire (backed up by a fair bit of positive feedback) that my works will please people, leave them (for whatever reason) happier in some general sense.

Negative impact is of course possible. I try to avoid triggering negative feelings or emotional upset in people (which I do believe are real) by proper choice of category, with tags and with up-front warnings as applicable. There are also some categories I won’t touch; my limited experience writing bespoke NonCon left me feeling seedy, for instance. (That’s not a judgement on those who read or write N-C, just my personal feelings.)

I am not - not - concerned about my stories tipping some marginally-stable individual, turning them into a serial killer or something. More on that later.


3. Do you have any personal background or knowledge, or professional experience, that bears on the question?

No. Not my field.


4. Do you know of sources of evidence or analysis elsewhere that bear on this question in a significant way?

I am not a trained psychologist or doctor, nor have I done extensive systematic inquiries, but I have done enough reading on the impact of erotica to believe that it poses a minimal threat to ‘safety’ or ‘public order’. Yes, some studies, for instance, link serial rapists with Non-Con porn etc, but these are cross-sectional studies, generally failing to explain why all porn readers are not drawn into IRL rape, etc.


5. Are you open to having your mind changed on this question?

Of course. I am open to having my mind changed on any question, but I’m not going to struggle with it. The onus on me is only to listen and evaluate evidence others may wish to provide. A final point - in this context, somebody else’s unease or hurt feelings do not count as ‘evidence’.


6. When you write stories, do you do so with an ethical purpose in mind?

Does not compute, Simon. Sorry. I write erotic fiction, not polemics intended to teach or sway peoples’ minds or settle age-old philosophical issues. My purpose is light entertainment. As somebody brighter than me has pointed out, looking for depth in porn is like renting a submarine to explore a puddle. (Good set of questions, though. Thanks.)

 

[Bramblethorn]

Even then (and this only applies to erotica) I feel like it's only there to highlight rare characteristics for the purpose of fetishization. If a character is indeed fleshed out with a great identity, then they could be the same person without delving into ethnicity, sexuality, bodytypes et cetera. It takes time to delve into the experiences of living as a minority, both the good and the bad, time that is usually too long for short stories. But maybe I've just read crappy representation so far as I've never really sought it out on purpose. If anyone knows of any well written asian characters here on LE and could share the story I'd greatly appreciate it.

I certainly see where you're coming from here; I agree that there are a lot of stories here where non-white characters do only exist for fetish purposes, and indeed there's an entire category where that's the norm.

But I live in a city where the population's something like 25% Asian, depending on how one quantifies these things, along with various other smaller groups. The single most common ancestry reported here is "Chinese", ahead of "English", "Australian", "Irish" and then "Indian". The places I've worked, and my circle of friends and family, have similar mixes.

When I'm setting a story here, I don't want to whitewash that. I aim for my stories to have a similar racial mix to real life. I know I'm not going to achieve perfection in writing minority characters outside my own experience, but from reader feedback I get the impression that as long as I'm making an effort to get it right, people do appreciate seeing representation.

Sometimes "getting it right" means reading up on a particular culture and maybe asking a friend from that background to assist with the details, sometimes it's drawing on stuff I've encountered second-hand IRL. Sometimes it's just about giving the side characters names that aren't all Western-sounding. I do tend to write longer stories where there's more space to develop characters and to include non-sex-scene characters.

 

[AchtungNight]

1. Do you accept the idea that there are ethical limits on what kind of erotica you should publish? Why or why not? What are those limits?

I accept Laurel’s rules on bestiality, snuff, under 18 and so forth. Snuff, vore and bestiality do not turn me on in the slightest. I should note that I have published underage stories on other sites, but never featured a character under age 16 physically or mentally. I do not like Laurel's insistence that there be no clear depiction of characters under age 18 having sexual thoughts here- it's unrealistic and not true to life. But she and Manu have the right to sculpt their site as they will. I have never tried to re-submit any of the stories they have rejected from me.

I accept that many of the fantasies explored here could indeed have negative consequences where they played out IRL, but I still support the authors being able to publish. I try to keep such negative consequences out of my stories as much as I can. Sexual fantasies should be consensual and enjoyable for the involved characters. I have portrayed negative experiences in a few cases, to keep things realistic or for character purposes (my characters are sexual beings, including the villains, and I do enjoy writing hyper-sexual beings with warts and all), but it has been rough in each case.

I write in a fantasy world. My characters are immune to unwanted pregnancy and STDs. They have been subject to sexual assault but are always able to overcome the aggressor at some point- in the actual event or later through the justice system. I wish real life was this way.

I try to keep the positive sex in my stories consensual and enjoyable for all parties involved. In real life, I am a heterosexual ethical slut who enjoys watching female bisexuals at play and gives platonic respect to gay and bisexual men along with lesbians. I don't have serious hardcore fetishes- I generally avoid stories where such things are depicted. As for incest... well, I have fantasized about my female cousins and siblings, so I understand it. If any of my real-life relatives wanted such a relationship with me, I'd probably give it to them. But they don't and consent is a major thing for me, so the point is moot. I do not find my older female relatives attractive and have self-imposed limits on younger ones. I wish to maintain these limits per the law.

2. Do you believe that your stories are likely to have an impact beyond the space of this forum? What kind of impact? Why do you believe what you believe on this question?

Impact, yes, of course. It is my hope and desire (backed up by a fair bit of positive feedback) that my works will please people, leave them (for whatever reason) happier in some general sense.

Negative impact is of course possible. I try to avoid triggering negative feelings or emotional upset in people (which I do believe are real) by proper choice of category, with tags and with up-front warnings as applicable.

I am not - not - concerned about my stories tipping some marginally-stable individual, turning them into a serial killer or something. My stories with negative characters are intended as cautionary tales and people do have intelligence and freedom of choice. I hope they will make the right decisions.

3. Do you have any personal background or knowledge, or professional experience, that bears on the question?

I am a former aspiring law enforcement officer who still maintains the ethics. My alignment is Neutral/Chaotic Good and I would prefer to go to a diverse afterlife that reflects that alignment if an afterlife exists. But I am also resolved to be a good person because it's right, not because some authority demands it. Hopefully, if there is an afterlife, my life performance will earn a positive one. Hopefully, my time in this world will be well-spent and appreciated by my peers either way. I accept ethical polyamory as the norm of my relationships- I have always practiced it in thought. I have been monogamous in my relationships thus far, but if I ever had the option to be otherwise... well, I have fantasized about group sex and would enjoy it, I am sure.

4. Do you know of sources of evidence or analysis elsewhere that bear on this question in a significant way?

Like other authors, I will say that I am not a trained psychologist or doctor, nor have I done extensive systematic inquiries, but I have done enough reading on the impact of erotica to believe that it poses a minimal threat to ‘safety’ or ‘public order’. Yes, some studies, for instance, link serial rapists with Non-Con porn, etc., but these are cross-sectional studies. I find them geared towards a predetermined viewpoint and generally failing to explain why all porn readers are not drawn into IRL rape, etc. People have the ability to make choices and anticipate consequences. I try to do that. I am also a victim of sexual bullying and do not wish to continue the cycle. This has limited my relationships- but I believe it is an important ethical constraint.

5. Are you open to having your mind changed on this question?

Depends on the method. If you're going to threaten me with real violence, shunning, or other discrimination in order to force me to change my mind... many have tried and it's not going to work. I value the stories I have written and wish to see them continue to be enjoyed. I do not believe writing erotica and ethical polyamory are sins against some imaginary prudish deity either. People have the right to enjoy what they wish to experience and the ability to engage in it for positive reasons with responsible pleasurable consent. I wish I could meet more people who shared this belief and were willing to explore it with me.

If you wish to discuss my viewpoint with me, I am open to that. But I will not change it except by my own choice.

6. When you write stories, do you do so with an ethical purpose in mind?

Sometimes. But I still write erotic fiction, not polemics intended to teach or sway peoples’ minds or settle age-old philosophical issues. My purpose is entertainment and to enjoy things via writing that my real life does not include. It's a rough road sometimes. But I maintain it. I hope my readers will do the same.

 

[XerXesXu]

Swapping back to movies and TV, I think the only time I've felt something was really spot on for me, personally, is this scene from King of the Hill. "We're laotian! From Laos! Stupid..."

Mood music:

STFU

But, what about the characterisation of the 'round-eye'? Are all round eyes that insensitive? Does insensitivity cause mere 'offence' or actual 'harm'?

 

[AG31]

By writing characters that are well rounded people instead of fetishized cardboard cutouts.

How to write fetishization respectfully is a much more difficult question in my opinion. Personally, my kinks don’t require fetishizing other people, so I haven’t put a lot of thought into it.

OK. So let's eliminate the Fetish category.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

OK. So let's eliminate the Fetish category.

Not all fetishes involve fetishizing people.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Not all fetishes involve fetishizing people.

There are plenty of valid fetishes that are tied to race one way or another. BBC is one example. I am certainly not thrilled about them myself, but as long as they are not hate-oriented or racist, we shouldn't get crazy with activism in this sense. Otherwise, a whole category and some additional kinks would get censored, and once you start going down that road...

 

[SimonDoom]

Fetishization of people. Hmmm. I have some personal difficulty with this. I've been working for a long time on trying to write an interracial story, and I find it difficult for me to do it in a way that's satisfying, because part of me wants to play to the fetish, but I don't want people to think I actually believe the stereotypes underlying the fetish, because I don't.

But the truth of fetishes is this. There are educated, well-heeled, well-educated white women who vote Democratic and attend Black Lives Matter rallies and say all the right things when they are with their friends at parties . . . and they have sex fantasies in private about big black cocks. This is just the weird way the world is. If you know anything at all about the porn world, the big black cock thing is HUGE. People have their fantasies. Is it wrong to have them? I can't come up with a good reason why. If they write or read stories about them, are they reinforcing stereotypes out there in the real world? Maybe, but I doubt it. I think people are complex and most people compartmentalize and they come here as their weird little sex fantasy space and I strongly doubt that they take away from it an increased desire to do bad things in the real world. I could be wrong, but I see no actual reason or evidence to believe I'm wrong.

 

[XerXesXu]

But the truth of fetishes is this. There are educated, well-heeled, well-educated white women who vote Democratic and attend Black Lives Matter rallies and say all the right things when they are with their friends at parties . . . and they have sex fantasies in private about big black cocks.

I could be wrong, but I see no actual reason or evidence to believe I'm wrong.

Did you mean to write:

'But the truth of fetishes is this. Without evidence, I believe there are ... etc.' .... I could be wrong, but I see no actual reason or evidence to believe I'm wrong.

See how it works.

 

[AG31]

So I hope we'd all agree that we have no control over what turns us on in our fantasies. What I hear a lot of people saying is that if what turns you on has no redeeming social value, please don't write about your fantasies here on Literotica... True????

 

[SimonDoom]

Did you mean to write:

'But the truth of fetishes is this. Without evidence, I believe there are ... etc.' .... I could be wrong, but I see no actual reason or evidence to believe I'm wrong.

See how it works.

No. I have plenty of evidence. From my experience in reading erotica and communicating with authors and readers I know to a certainty, and from other reading, that there are people who match these descriptions who have these kinds of fetishes. There is no doubt about this.

 

[ElectricBlue]

@SimonDoom
It would be interesting to see some kind of tabular summary of this thread.

It's no surprise to me that there are a bunch of people who have thought about what they write, their own boundaries and limits, and why they have them, but I've not gone through and done a count.

There's obviously a vast silent majority who have said nothing for whatever reason - they've not thought about it, or have but don't care or don't have a stance, or think the whole notion of erotic morality is ridiculous.

Good thread though .

 

[ElectricBlue]

So I hope we'd all agree that we have no control over what turns us on in our fantasies. What I hear a lot of people saying is that if what turns you on has no redeeming social value, please don't write about your fantasies here on Literotica... True????

I think that's a false conclusion - perhaps my suggestion to Simon (my post above) might quantify it.

 

[Bramblethorn]

By requiring erotica to take into account social issues, you deny many people a venue for expressing their erotic lives.

Omenainen isn't a site moderator. She's not in a position to deny anybody a venue. Even for the story event she runs, anybody can submit an entry - even if it doesn't fit with her ideas of what female empowerment is - and the only person who can reject those entries is Laurel.

The example you've posted appears to be of somebody whose stories were rejected by another site. That's not the same thing as Omenainen expressing an opinion that some kinds of stories are bad.

What follows is a post made by a half Asian woman on Lush Stories because it wasn't politically correct regarding Asians. It just happened to be what satisfied her erotically. It's not odd that what satisfies us erotically may often be totally counter to what we stand for in the real world.

Some people get off on being fetishised for their own race, and write stories expressing that. But most of the racial fetish stories on this site aren't that. They're white people writing stereotypes of other races. "Black bulls" who are brutal sex machines, Asian waifu girlfriends who find Asian men unsatisfying and get wet at the sight of a big strong white guy, stuff where the characterisation is about as deep as a carpark puddle.

People are still free to post those here, subject to Literotica's usual rules. But other people are allowed to have opinions about those stories too, and it's not accurate to characterise this as "denying them a venue".

 

[XerXesXu]

No. I have plenty of evidence. From my experience in reading erotica and communicating with authors and readers I know to a certainty, and from other reading, that there are people who match these descriptions who have these kinds of fetishes. There is no doubt about this.

Did you mean to write:
'I have no doubt about this.'

Everybody has culturally acquired beliefs which are not based on evidence, whether it be from the bible, a style guide, anecdote or the literature in which one chooses to immerse oneself. But we winnow our culturally acquired beliefs based on little other than personal comfort levels. You do yourself a disservice if you require a higher, almost experimental scientific level of proof to disprove your culturally acquired null hypotheses, but are unwilling to examine your culturally comforting beliefs with equal rigour.

You'll note that I'm criticising the way you frame your beliefs, not those beliefs themselves. As always, accuracy in framing the question is important.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

Asian waifu girlfriends who find Asian men unsatisfying and get wet at the sight of a big strong white guy

I was shocked---shocked!---recently to read an Asian raceplay story that punched up: Hu's the Boss has the harassed Asian intern blackmailing her boss into some noncon femdom raceplay. It came up as similar to my story Snowed In with a Predator. Now, I don't usually read raceplay, so this could be much less remarkable than I think. But I doubt it.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

(For contrast, here's the sort of thing I imagine when people tell me a story involves raceplay: Social Studies. At least the author there was kind enough to include a content warning so I could decide not to read it.)

 

[vagrantx]

Mood music:

STFU

"Have you seen greys anatomy? You remind me of the one in greys anatomy!" Fuck, I think I love this woman. The musics great too, thank you for this!

But, what about the characterisation of the 'round-eye'? Are all round eyes that insensitive? Does insensitivity cause mere 'offence' or actual 'harm'?

I don't like the phrase, but no, "not all of them are like that." In that particular scene, the storytellers merely used Hank and the Gang as a device to showcase a microcosmos of Kahn's every day life. It wouldn't be interesting to watch him in a flashback of his entire upbringing and showing every time someone asked "wtf is laos?". It's condensed for satire.

Insensitivity in a single instance is usually not harmful; it's the gradual buildup. The 1000th time you hear "ching-chong! haha!" is a lot worse than the first time, even if the person saying it is a child without a racist bone in them.

The point of banning books is to ensure that no one has access to them because the content is considered by some to be offensiv

Or worse, they're concidered to be informative. Can't have a well educated populace, can we?

Other than that I agree 100% with the text you quoted. She speaks from the heart and has every right to write what she writes.

What I hear a lot of people saying is that if what turns you on has no redeeming social value, please don't write about your fantasies here on Literotica... True????

I'm sorry if I came across that way, but no! That's not at all what I was trying to say. We're all deviants here, if people get their rocks of to specific races, then go nuts! I won't read the stories, but that's fine too! What I think is important is to grasp the distinct differences between fetishization and representation. Someone isn't "doing the asians a favour" because they include a horny thai hooker and call the story diverse, but that doesn't mean I don't think they are allowed to write that story.

As I said in my first reply to this thread, I myself write without any ethical guidelines whatsoever. I would never judge anyone else for what they get off to, even if it's a hot pile of steaming racism through ignorance. My shit stinks worse. Getting turned on by <idea> isn't the same thing as perpetuating <idea> in the real world.

 

[AG31]

So I hope we'd all agree that we have no control over what turns us on in our fantasies. What I hear a lot of people saying is that if what turns you on has no redeeming social value, please don't write about your fantasies here on Literotica... True????

I think that's a false conclusion - perhaps my suggestion to Simon (my post above) might quantify it.

Which is a false conclusion, 1) that we have no control or 2) that a lot of people are saying don't publish certain kinds of fantasies?

 

[AG31]

AG31 said:
What I hear a lot of people saying is that if what turns you on has no redeeming social value, please don't write about your fantasies here on Literotica... True????

I'm sorry if I came across that way, but no! That's not at all what I was trying to say. We're all deviants here, if people get their rocks of to specific races, then go nuts!

No, you weren't coming across to me that way.

 

[AG31]

Omenainen isn't a site moderator. She's not in a position to deny anybody a venue. Even for the story event she runs, anybody can submit an entry - even if it doesn't fit with her ideas of what female empowerment is - and the only person who can reject those entries is Laurel.

The example you've posted appears to be of somebody whose stories were rejected by another site. That's not the same thing as Omenainen expressing an opinion that some kinds of stories are bad.

I should have expressed myself differently. I understand that Omenainen can't literally ban anything from this site. I should have said something like "If people who have decision making power agreed with your opinion, then they would end up denying people a venue."

 

[Bramblethorn]

I should have expressed myself differently. I understand that Omenainen can't literally ban anything from this site. I should have said something like "If people who have decision making power agreed with your opinion, then they would end up denying people a venue."

If they agreed with the opinion and felt it appropriate to unilaterally impose their views, that is.

I used to moderate a couple of online spaces. I had plenty of views on what I personally thought people should and shouldn't post there, but I set the rules based on user consensus which often disagreed with my own views.

 

[AG31]

If they agreed with the opinion and felt it appropriate to unilaterally impose their views, that is.

I used to moderate a couple of online spaces. I had plenty of views on what I personally thought people should and shouldn't post there, but I set the rules based on user consensus which often disagreed with my own views.

OK, OK. I'm not trying to talk about how sites set rules. I'm talking about an attitude toward erotic content.