Introducing Women's Erotica: a new subgenre of Erotica, and a necessary one

[Erozetta]

Well, that doesn't apply here. And since you have no evidence except what you see here, I suggest you re-visit the evidence.

K.

 

[Omenainen]

I believe that we 'just' need a 'new brand' that could appeal to people who usually don't read Erotica.

A part of my confusion is that if the people aren’t usually reading erotica, then they won’t be here to read it no matter what we call it. And I don’t really understand how we would reach them to invite them here.

My event originated from kind of the same place, but I focused on getting the authors that are already here to write stories they would write anyway, but in a way that makes more sense to me. It’s worked well so far.

 

[Cagivagurl]

A part of my confusion is that if the people aren’t usually reading erotica, then they won’t be here to read it no matter what we call it. And I don’t really understand how we would reach them to invite them here.

My event originated from kind of the same place, but I focused on getting the authors that are already here to write stories they would write anyway, but in a way that makes more sense to me. It’s worked well so far.

Literotica, is a very popular website. If information shared in the AH is to be believed, perhaps #1 in the world....
Is there a wider audience that is looking for something? Possibly.
I'm not sure any of us participating in this discussion fully understands what's possible.
Which is why I am interested in seeing what it uncovers and then perhaps offers.
What has been discussed here so far takes nothing away from what already exists. Is there harm in furthering the debate and seeing if we could do something that assists writers here who are looking for something?

Cagivagurl

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Literotica, is a very popular website. If information shared in the AH is to be believed, perhaps #1 in the world....
Is there a wider audience that is looking for something? Possibly.
I'm not sure any of us participating in this discussion fully understands what's possible.
Which is why I am interested in seeing what it uncovers and then perhaps offers.
What has been discussed here so far takes nothing away from what already exists. Is there harm in furthering the debate and seeing if we could do something that assists writers here who are looking for something?

Cagivagurl

I've seen nothing put forth here that would expand the reach that Lit already has.
New titles and categories aren't going to draw in masses of new people.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I've seen nothing put forth here that would expand the reach that Lit already has.
New titles and categories aren't going to draw in masses of new people.

Indeed. And to be honest, I don't know what the point would really be of drawing in people who had no previous need for erotica to a place like Lit. This place is too cumbersome and impractical even for long-time erotica readers.

 

[Cagivagurl]

Indeed. And to be honest, I don't know what the point would really be of drawing in people who had no previous need for erotica to a place like Lit. This place is too cumbersome and impractical even for long-time erotica readers.

I'm not sure either...
I'm not trying to supply answers.
Merely add to the discussion.
Is it possible it might be a good thing?

I don't know, but it is a topic close to my heart, so I'm an interested spectator.
Enjoying seeing different aspects of the discussion.

Writers here in Literotica have been crying out for ways to make their respective genres stand out. It appears that the owners aren't enthusiastic about change. Why should they be? The site works for them...

Will anything happen? Is it even a good thing? I don't know, but I'm certainly interested.

Cagivagurl

 

[MelissaBaby]

I didn't say anything about making it look non-erotic. I said you're relabeling it to make it appear as though it's better than the term "stroker" implies (from your perspective. The majority of us are fine with some, or even all of our work, being labeled a stroker because there's nothing wrong with writing strokers. It is not a lesser art form as you imply by trying to lift your own style above it with a new term.

It's like when people think they are praising a song by calling it poetry. Bullshit. A good song is a good song, it doesn't have to be "poetry" to be good. It should be judged on its own terms.

I think my discomfort with this whole issue is because I just don't believe in the concept of genre. Genre is about marketing, not creativity. Genre is just choosing which box to put the merchandise in.

 

[Cagivagurl]

It's like when people think they are praising a song by calling it poetry. Bullshit. A good song is a good song, it doesn't have to be "poetry" to be good. It should be judged on its own terms.

I think my discomfort with this whole issue is because I just don't believe in the concept of genre. Genre is about marketing, not creativity. Genre is just choosing which box to put the merchandise in.

Can song be poetry?
Can poetry be song?
I think both hold true for some formats. Rap is just the spoken word with music...
I can think of endless songs that grew from poetry.
Some of the greatest songwriters, were also great poets...

However, there are songs, great songs that share nothing but rhyming words with poetry.
They're great because of the music. The lyrics not more than an add on. The two cane be linked, but not always.
Sometimes, it's just about the beat, the hook, the guitar screaming melodically.

Genre, is it just marketing?
Or is it a tool to make work easier to find?
For myself, I write for fun. I carry no baggage, no dreams of becoming a published writer. I'm just having fun.
My interest is as a reader. I have very defined tastes in what I want to read. If there was a way of making them easier to find. I'm interested.
Scrolling through piles of what might be great writing, but of little interest to me. That is painful. If I could open up a file which contained the material I wanted to read. Praise be the lord....
What Nancy is discussing might work... It might not. It could however open doors for other doors, other categories. It doesn't have to stop with WE...
Just my thoughts.

Cagivagurl

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I think my discomfort with this whole issue is because I just don't believe in the concept of genre. Genre is about marketing, not creativity. Genre is just choosing which box to put the merchandise in.

I can agree with that, but so long as the site uses a category system to help people find stuff, it should have all of the appropriate categories. As it is, it does not - far from it. There is no appropriate place for stories that are more character-driven, plot-driven, or emotionally-based as opposed to kink-based (unless they conform to the rigid cookie-cutter of romance).

If we want to just do away with categories altogether and move to a more comprehensive tag system I'm fine with that too, but I'm sure that you'll get far far far more pushback from the general population for that than simply adding some new categories and doing a little shuffling.

The vast majority of book stores sort their wares by ... categories, and while they are far from perfect, they work reasonably well (obviously, tagging isn't very practical for bound trees).

 

[THBGato]

Indeed. And to be honest, I don't know what the point would really be of drawing in people who had no previous need for erotica to a place like Lit. This place is too cumbersome and impractical even for long-time erotica readers.

I never read erotica prior to visiting Literotica. In many ways I still don't. I read Lesbian Romance, which often has erotic scenes in it, though my favourite stories often don't. However, I have become far more open to reading erotica since the beginning of the year.

(I was drawn here by a link to a OneHitWanda story that somebody had posted on BlueSky. There are many things about the site (the objectification of women in the advertising, some of the categories) that make me feel deeply uncomfortable, but I stay here as it is the best repository of quality Lesbian Romance that I know of.)

So, while I agree that:

I've seen nothing put forth here that would expand the reach that Lit already has.
New titles and categories aren't going to draw in masses of new people.

If we could find a way to create a list/tagging system to link together, then advertise that via Social Media, you might draw in more readers like myself. Readers who would never think of visiting an Erotica website but who MIGHT follow a link to a repository of free, emotionally-literate stories. (This is going to sound big-headed but I suspect I am the kind of reader you all want to attract - one who comments, one who writes reviews, one who creates lists, one who writes stories themself, one who contributes to the forum, one who actively promotes writers/stories that they like.)

 

[Bramblethorn]

If we want to just do away with categories altogether and move to a more comprehensive tag system I'm fine with that too, but I'm sure that you'll get far far far more pushback from the general population for that than simply adding some new categories and doing a little shuffling.

I'm not saying you're wrong on this, but I'd be sad if that were the case.

(But then I said that about VHS vs. Betamax too.)

The vast majority of book stores sort their wares by ... categories, and while they are far from perfect, they work reasonably well (obviously, tagging isn't very practical for bound trees).

Pure brick-and-mortar book stores, yes, but as you say that's a limitation imposed by the medium.

For online bookstores, I don't know whether Amazon calls their system "tags" or "categories" or "genre" or something else, but the closest Literotica equivalent would be tags, in that a single book can be listed under several different ones. For instance, 50 Shades is listed under Erotic Romance (Books), Holiday Romance (Books) and Erotic BDSM Fiction. Smashwords likewise lets me list a book in both "Fiction - LGBTQ - Lesbian" and "Fiction - Romance - Contemporary".

For brick-and-mortar stores which have a web presence, books still have to be shelved in a single category, but online they'll often be listed in multiple categories. For instance, this bio of an American missionary in Hawai'i' is listed under Biographies & Memoirs, Philosophy & Religions, Travel, Topography and Exploration.

 

[HordHolm]

I think this discussion has reached a point where everyone understands each others' respective viewpoints (note: I didn't say 'agrees with' ). I would suggest that, if there is to be a next step, it is worth considering the possible, and the impossible. Thus:

It is absolutely possible for an interested group of readers/writers to cooperate to create curated lists and promote those
It is absolutely possible for an interested group of writers to agree to use certain agreed tags on certain submissions and promote those

And for this I would say 'go for it'. I won't be one of those writers/readers, but that doesn't matter. It is within the power of those on this thread who wish to progress this to use these methods (and perhaps others) to do so. And I would suggest that @NancyVeeners contacts those authors who seem favourable and then they can go forward with this. And good luck.

On the other hand....

The site won't give us new categories, almost certainly
The site won't let us submit in multiple categories, almost certainly
The site won't clean up the tag system (seriously, there are 350k plus different tags - not fit for purpose!), removing duplications, tightening definitions, etc, almost certainly

Every few months we have the same discussion about this. Nothing ever happens. We will still be going around in circles in e.g. 2029 having the same discussion and repeating the same viewpoints.

 

[NancyVeeners]

I never read erotica prior to visiting Literotica. In many ways I still don't. I read Lesbian Romance, which often has erotic scenes in it, though my favourite stories often don't. However, I have become far more open to reading erotica since the beginning of the year.

(I was drawn here by a link to a OneHitWanda story that somebody had posted on BlueSky. There are many things about the site (the objectification of women in the advertising, some of the categories) that make me feel deeply uncomfortable, but I stay here as it is the best repository of quality Lesbian Romance that I know of.)

So, while I agree that:

If we could find a way to create a list/tagging system to link together, then advertise that via Social Media, you might draw in more readers like myself. Readers who would never think of visiting an Erotica website but who MIGHT follow a link to a repository of free, emotionally-literate stories. (This is going to sound big-headed but I suspect I am the kind of reader you all want to attract - one who comments, one who writes reviews, one who creates lists, one who writes stories themself, one who contributes to the forum, one who actively promotes writers/stories that they like.)

Dear THBGato (and all the other readers and writers who contributed to this discussion)

I'll skip the thanks this time

Two posts you contributed before were quite illuminating to me

1. You mentioned a theme you cherish: a woman discovers her lesbian self that has been so long hidden. I am not lesbian, but as a writer I am attracted to challenges, so I tried to approach the theme myself. One of my heroines found love in her former classmate she had not seen for a decade. This is a typical WE theme of course, and if it (and not the attached Romance) is the driver of the story this story qualifies as Women's Fiction. So, I guess there are whole themes (not categories) that qualify, including most of (or maybe all) your writings;

2. Second and possibly more important. You suggested I could create a shortlist of WE stories myself. This is a good idea, I am already doing so. But if I propose a list I created myself I guess it could (justly) attract more criticism. This is why I proposed a 'democratic' approach in which each participant in the exploration choses two stories (one of her or his stories, one written by another member of the WE group, so we can discuss with the author (like another colleague suggested in this discussion). Just one of the possibilities of course, but meditating on it helped me clarify to myself that at the core of my proposal there is the emergence of a group of readers and writers who want to explore the opportunity I believe is offered by Women's Erotica (or whatever the group would decide to name it).

This is not happening, the group is definitely not emerging, so I decided to abandon the WE attempt.

I'll answer all the contributors to the discussion, but you are the first one to know the big news (just joking
I am grateful to all the contributors, both the few who supported the idea and those who were critical. Harsh criticism is not pleasurable, but it is very useful, so thanks to the harsh critics as well. Seriously.

Finally, let me thank you again for your contributions, and good luck with your outstanding stories. WE stories

Cheers

NV

 

[Erozetta]

I was harsh, I think. I apologize.

But I want to clarify that I don't think @NancyVeeners idea for curating lists of emotion-driven erotica is a bad one.

My whole issue with your proposal was the "Women's" part having zero actual meaning in regards to the definition and intent you put forward. It works against your goal rather than toward it. It's not inclusive. Many guys who would be interested in your actual intent wouldn't touch this because of the "Women's" title. Some might feel it's off limits to them, some might feel it diminishes their manliness to like such a thing (which is all bullshit, but some guys will still feel that way.)

Your proposal was disjointed, but well intentioned.

Had it been "emotionally driven erotic stories for women" or at least "stories about the emotional journeys of women characters" the proposal would've made more sense and been received a lot better, I'm sure. (And that would've made sense as a category/subgenre.) But removing that element or any actual ties to women made the term pointless and unnecessarily divisive while working against your intended goal.

 

[NancyVeeners]

I was harsh, I think. I apologize.

But I want to clarify that I don't think @NancyVeeners idea for curating lists of emotion-driven erotica is a bad one.

My whole issue with your proposal was the "Women's" part having zero actual meaning in regards to the definition and intent you put forward. It works against your goal rather than toward it. It's not inclusive. Many guys who would be interested in your actual intent wouldn't touch this because of the "Women's" title. Some might feel it's off limits to them, some might feel it diminishes their manliness to like such a thing (which is all bullshit, but some guys will still feel that way.)

Your proposal was disjointed, but well intentioned.

Had it been "emotionally driven erotic stories for women" or at least "stories about the emotional journeys of women characters" the proposal would've made more sense and been received a lot better, I'm sure. (And that would've made sense as a category/subgenre.) But removing that element or any actual ties to women made the term pointless and unnecessarily divisive while working against your intended goal.

Dear colleague

no need to apologize. Strong criticism is part and parcel of the game, and it is welcome when it points out a real problem.
Besides, it was not harsh (or mild) criticism that convinced me to abandon the WE project, but the fact that no group of writers interested in exploring the 'emotional erotica' cross-genre has emerged so far.

About the men's aversion to participating in a 'Women's Erotica' writers group, I am not sure this is the case. We should ask them. By the way, there are a few males in the Women's Fiction Writers Association, a small group of men who write women's fiction and are happy to be part of a two-thousand-women-strong community of writers. Is there any WFWA member reading this post? Maybe we could lure one or more of the WFWA male members to join Literotica and let us know how they feel.

The Patriarchy has oppressed women with gendered language (and worse) for millennia after all, maybe there are men out there who want to make restitution

Best

NV

 

[Erozetta]

Dear colleague

no need to apologize. Strong criticism is part and parcel of the rules of the game, and it is welcome when it points out a real problem.
And it was not harsh (or mild) criticism that convinced me to abandon the WE project, but the fact that no group of writers interested in exploring the 'emotional erotica' cross-genre has emerged so far.

About the men's aversion to participating in a 'Women's Erotica' writers group, I am not sure this is the case. We should ask them. By the way, there are a few males in the Women's Fiction Writers Association, a small group of men who write women's fiction and are happy to be part of a two-thousand-women-strong community of writers. Is there any WFWA member reading this port? Maybe we could lure one or more of the WFWA male members to join Literotica and let us know how they feel.

The Patriarchy has oppressed women with gendered language (and worse) for millennia after all, maybe there are men out there who want to make restitution.

Best

NV

I've no doubt some men would participate quite happily.

I'm saying that some who would want to, if it were proposed under a different, more inclusive term that mirrors your actual intent, wouldn't because of the gendered nature of your suggestion (and likely wouldn't admit to not wanting to participate due to that reason for the same reason many men won't admit that period details in a story ick them out, but will happily anonymously downvote stories with such elements.)

But that's all a moot point because it still boils down to the "women" in "women's erotica" being perfectly meaningless because it has zero to do with women as you've stated many times.

Also, there's been interest expressed in the "emotional journey" aspect of your idea. The only complaint I've seen is finding fault in the term "women's erotica" as a catch-all for emotion based stories that don't even have to feature women in any capacity whatsoever as long as emotions are involved. (Although, how we're supposed to depict men as having emotion, I don't know, since that's clearly only a woman's thing. <-- sarcasm, since it actually needs to be pointed out 'cause someone would absolutely think I believe that.)

As for the part of your comment I bolded. How do you think it comes across when you're trying to shoehorn emotional journeys under the term "women" when men have used the idea of women being overly emotional with such emotion deeming them unreasonable as a way to dismiss them, their ideas, and their agency for, basically, forever?

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I never read erotica prior to visiting Literotica. In many ways I still don't. I read Lesbian Romance, which often has erotic scenes in it, though my favourite stories often don't. However, I have become far more open to reading erotica since the beginning of the year.

(I was drawn here by a link to a OneHitWanda story that somebody had posted on BlueSky. There are many things about the site (the objectification of women in the advertising, some of the categories) that make me feel deeply uncomfortable, but I stay here as it is the best repository of quality Lesbian Romance that I know of.)

So, while I agree that:

If we could find a way to create a list/tagging system to link together, then advertise that via Social Media, you might draw in more readers like myself. Readers who would never think of visiting an Erotica website but who MIGHT follow a link to a repository of free, emotionally-literate stories. (This is going to sound big-headed but I suspect I am the kind of reader you all want to attract - one who comments, one who writes reviews, one who creates lists, one who writes stories themself, one who contributes to the forum, one who actively promotes writers/stories that they like.)

I am not really sure that there are that many "Yous" out there, percentage-wise speaking. And I mean that as a compliment in the sense that you read, write, comment a lot, and participate calmly and constructively in these discussions. That's rare. But you are definitely right that we should all strive to attract such new people. I am just not convinced this is the right way, with something that's being mislabeled at the very start. I also don't think that Literotica will do/change anything to support the effort, but that's a whole separate subject.

It is my opinion that the way it is right now, Literotica can't hope to attract many people who aren't interested in plain smut. The site would need to be organized in a much different way for that to work. Say a system with far fewer categories - categories that wouldn't be kink-oriented, but rather organized in a way that stories are separated by the type and length of the story, or even by the amount and explicitness of sexual content (smut or erotica), rather than whether the story contains anal sex or large breasts.
Also, a good tag system is needed, something much more than what we have right now, but also something far from the absolute mess that AO3 is.

Either way, we can muse here as much as we want, Literotica won't change

 

[AG31]

Did anyone in this thread agree with the OP that the word "women" should be included in the name of this genre?

I know. I could go re-read the whole thread, but I can't face it. We're on page 13!!!

 

[THBGato]

I suspect a lot of potential readers get put off by the fact that this site is called Literotica and, thanks to the adverts, seems like a porn site. (I'm not really sure where that line is to be honest.)

I wonder if having a website (called, say, Emotional Journeys) that sort of sat over Literotica and then linked to specific stories here (and elsewhere - many writers e.g. HelenL or WaxPhilosophic have their own websites) might entice readers who would never click on a pornsite to read some of these stories. You could have an editorial team selecting which stories would be linked to.

Just a thought. It would be a lot of work. I should really get back to doing some writing. Or at the very least starting on supper!

One of my heroines found love in her former classmate she had not seen for a decade. This is a typical WE theme of course, and if it (and not the attached Romance) is the driver of the story this story qualifies as Women's Fiction. So, I guess there are whole themes (not categories) that qualify, including most of (or maybe all) your writings;

2. Second and possibly more important. You suggested I could create a shortlist of WE stories myself. This is a good idea, I am already doing so.

This sounds right up my street @NancyVeeners . Is it published yet? I couldn't find a story matching that description on your profile. I look forward to reading it.

Also, have you made your story lists public? Again, I couldn't see any on your profile.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

About the men's aversion to participating in a 'Women's Erotica' writers group, I am not sure this is the case.

There are a couple of men in this very thread who seem affronted by it. No need to ask. The term "women's erotica" unnecessarily antagonizes them.

If it's not already obvious, I'm with Erozetta: like the idea, just don't like your label for it. It feels like us gals circling the wagons, forming an exclusive club, and that's not in keeping with the spirit of the site. It may not be your intent, but the perception cannot be denied. It's a huge spectre hanging over it.

 

[Cagivagurl]

As a personal note.
I would also like to proffer an apology for not being more supportive.
I certainly felt there was merit in what you were trying to achieve.
Hopefully, you will not lose heart with us.

Cagivagurl

 

[alohadave]

I suspect a lot of potential readers get put off by the fact that this site is called Literotica and, thanks to the adverts, seems like a porn site.

Before I started reading here, the name made me think that the content was literature oriented.

 

[NancyVeeners]

This sounds right up my street @NancyVeeners . Is it published yet? I couldn't find a story matching that description on your profile. I look forward to reading it.

Also, have you made your story lists public? Again, I couldn't see any on your profile.

Hello sis
it is not a short story, Ellen and Alice are minor characters in a complete novel of Women's Fiction. I am exploring Lit and I guess that a complete novel (over 70 KWords, and multi-category) is too long and nuanced to be published as a Series in Lit. I hope my stories are 'public' and visible. You should see nine of them, most of them WE, in various categories (no Lesbian Sex unfortunately but I am considering a try). Please let me know if there is something wrong with the visibility of my works in Lit, I could have missed something.
Cheers!
NV

 

[RoperTrace]

What makes you think I can afford a professional? I use Miracle Whip instead of real Mayo.

Reminds me of my 85 y.o. sister who would be triggered by mentioning Miracle Whip was a satisfactory substitute for Mayo.

 

[THBGato]

Hello sis
it is not a short story, Ellen and Alice are minor characters in a complete novel of Women's Fiction. I am exploring Lit and I guess that a complete novel (over 70 KWords, and multi-category) is too long and nuanced to be published as a Series in Lit. I hope my stories are 'public' and visible. You should see nine of them, most of them WE, in various categories (no Lesbian Sex unfortunately but I am considering a try). Please let me know if there is something wrong with the visibility of my works in Lit, I could have missed something.
Cheers!
NV

Not necessarily. My longest stort here is 84k, split over 5 chapters, while on of my favourites (by @WhiteTailDarkTip ) is over 3 categories and probably 90 words. Yours would find readers.

I can see your stories... but you mentioned creating lists, and I can't see any of those on your profile (check mine to see what they look like). That might be because they haven't been made public.

T x