Ethics and "perverted justice"

[AngelicAssassin]

Still waiting,

but it appears your dance card filled up in the process.

i don't mind a few thought provoking questions, but geez Pure. Try concise once in a while.

Let me make it easy for you.

Ebony says she'd kill them with her own hands immediately.

i said i'd give the individual 24 hours to turn themselves in to the authorities, no questions asked. i agreed with the "no death penalty" group, with the provisio that the convict be given no special privilege concerning housing. i also liked the idea from Francisco that if he manages to get out, i'm there waiting for him. Perhaps i will have calmed down by that time. If i turn that cold, i'll use every legal means possible to make the parolee's life hell on earth.

Anything else, or would you rather i turn my daughter over to the asshole for a second chance to see if "reform" really worked?

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Still waiting,

Anything else, or would you rather i turn my daughter over to the asshole for a second chance to see if "reform" really worked?

Someone show me how you can reform, rehabilitate or "cure" a pedophile. (I already know about the chemical and surgical castration so spare me that info, please.) These are broken people... they are not "fixable" in the sense that others can be.

 

[Lance Hardrock]

Daring to step in here

As a favor to a friend of mine, I've read all the posts on this thread and would like to share my observations.

1. The original purpose of this thread was to point out this vigilante group who essentially entrap people and then expose them an internet blacklist. How many people see that list is subject to debate. But the point is that this is vigilantism at it's worse. If a cop tried this, his badge would be forfeit. Unfortunately, civilians can get away with things like this and that is one of the prices we have to pay for a free interent.

2. I think all agree that the opportunities for abuse and for further damage (such as tracking down home addresses and sending out the real cops) are rampant. How many times have I wanted to plaster my boss' face on the wall and throw darts at it? Well, come on down and join the Pedophile Vigilantes and do much worse. Or that girl friend who left me for another man/woman?

3. As far as the statement that most pedophiles in prison have committed murder is pretty self-explanatory. Child Molesting rates right up there with rape, the almost perfect crime.

Check the statistics. These pedos probably were tried for murder, NOT child molesting. I don't have figures at my fingertips, but I've heard this time and time again from the cops in my family. It's sad to say that molesting (as well as rape) often go unreported..... unless the victim is murdered.

4. The above observation might very well explain the statement about pedos in jail are also murderers. But at the same time, Ebony's point that most pedos never commit murder is also true.

They are smart enough to know that for a variety of reasons (ranging from fear to embarrassment to simply not having enough physical evidence to convict), that the pedo will get away with the crime.

and last but not least,

5. I don't ever want to get on the bad side of any of the people on this thread. I enjoy all my body parts way too much to lose them.

6. As for me, someone messes with my kids or grandkids, they get to die very slowly, very painfully and there ain't going to be a judge, jury, or cop who is going to stop me. What happens to me later won't matter. How can you punish a man who has had his kid molested, raped, or killed? I am not saying that's the right thing to do. I'm just saying that is what I would do.


Well, I made my observations and will go away now. And if anyone wants to label this BS, go right ahead. I don't care. Won't be the first time for me.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Daring to step in here

4. The above observation might very well explain the statement about pedos in jail are also murderers. But at the same time, Ebony's point that most pedos never commit murder is also true.

That is not what I said. I am tired of having My words twisted.

 

[Lance Hardrock]

whoops

Sorry, I got the author mixed up on number 4. That should be Pure, I think.

But that is exactly why I don't bother with these sort of threads.

I'm here to have fun, not argue, discuss, or discourse with anyone.

See ya.

Don't leave LIT, Ebony on account of my unintentional mistake.

 

[Pure]

I think Hard summarized things pretty well, though the names aren't quite right: Eb maybe was talking of (violent?) pedophiles in prison and I was talking about them generally.

I can sometimes see a point in vigilantism, where the police sit on their hands. But as Franciscon has said, the 'backfire' potential is high. I recall some radical women's groups in the 1970s who proposed posting the names of rapists-- writing them on the walls of washrooms, with identifying material.

Maybe an outcry of protest of police inaction, but unltimately dangerous. And abandoned, I think. It's more satisfying to send someone to prison, through the normal process.

Potential for abuse and mistake on the part of 'perverted justice' has been mentioned by several, along with absence of recourse.

Also [as Hard pointed out] there are elements of entrapment, i.e., partly causing the crime attempt they want to expose. In the transcript I read, the 'girl' was at least totally receptive (saying 'yes' immediately to anything), maybe even inviting. This assumes that the alleged 'transcript' is correct: If you've ever made one of IM or chat, it's easily edited and altered like any other text document.

As to retribution: If one pictures one's teenage son accused of say 'date rape'; in a drunken way, [having] gone too far with the neighbors daughter, even having taken advantage [she says] of her similar state, are you OK with her parents coming over the next day and blowing his head off? Or the daughter posting his name on the internet: a picture, a phone number, and "RAPIST" under it?

J.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

... As to retribution: If one pictures one's teenage son accused of say 'date rape'; in a drunken way, gone too far with the neighbors daughter, even taken advantage of her state, are you OK with her parents coming over the next day and blowing his head off? Or the daughter posting his name on the internet: a picture, a phone number, and "RAPIST" under it?

J.

No, i would have drug his battered, bruised, and broken ass to the police myself.

 

[Pure]

Angelic said,

/No, i would have drug his [son's] battered, bruised, and broken ass to the police myself./

Well, you agree you don't want the accuser's family doing the battering? or murdering (commonly thought of where a rape is seen as taking from the family's honor)?

And you do have a problem with the internet 'rapist' posting, in this case?

Q: Would this dragging and beating be before or after you hear your son's story?

J.

 

[A Desert Rose]

You have now set an entirely different scenario, Pure and an entirely different set of circumstances from the one originally presented here.
(Nothing wrong with doing that, in fact it encourages and is part of debate and discussion.)

But if your point is that all circumstances are different and require different actions amd reactions, then yes, you are correct. There is no blanket answer to how these types of crimes should be handled.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Angelic,

No, i would have drug his [son's] battered, bruised, and broken ass to the police myself.

Well, you agree you don't want the accuser's family doing the battering? or murdering (commonly thought of where a rape is seen as taking from the family's honor)?

My actions have nothing to do with what the family of the daughter might do to him.

Mine have everything to do with his failure to behave in a manner commensurate to the way i had raised him.

• getting drunk to begin with and losing control,
• using either his drunkeness, or hers as a reason for fucking,
• lack of respect for her,
• lack of respect for himself,
• and lack of respect for me.

And you do have a problem with the internet 'rapist' posting, in this case?

Honestly? Post away. A few things in life can be forgiven, but never forgotten, nor should. If it ruins his life, so be it. And yes, i realize i hold part of the responsibility in his failure for not raising him better.

Q: Would this dragging and beating be before or after you hear your son's story?

J.

i never engage without facts, unless i perceive an immediate danger re a safety issue. He gets his say, then the ass whipping begins.

In the end, i put him in front of the desk sergeant because he obviously didn't have the brains to stay out of jail himself, nor do i trust him to do the right thing based on his actions.

 

[Pure]

ADR said,
//But if your point is that all circumstances are different and require different actions amd reactions, then yes, you are correct. There is no blanket answer to how these types of crimes should be handled.//

There are several points. But your last sentence highlight one that's not been emphasized enough, including, in my date rape example.

The hypothetical scenes tend to be described in terms of "crimes"; in practice it's usually allegations of crimes.

Witness Angelic's statement,'


i never engage without facts, unless i perceive an immediate danger re a safety issue. He gets his say, then the ass whipping begins.

This has the flavor "Certainly there will be a trial befor the hanging."

In the wording of my example (since revised) I should have highlighted that we have a story or allegation from the neighbor's daughter, regarding our son's conduct.

Hence I believe Angelic perhaps (?) meant to say,

"He [son] gets his say, and unless it convinces me of his innocence, then the ass whipping begins. "

I'm sure this allegation vs fact stuff is going to strike some as quibbling. Whatever. Wait till a trial of your own!

J.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I believe Angelic you are in these case a great example on how parents should behave. You take responsibility, you deal out first your own punishment and then you hand him over to the justice system.

I wish all parents would act as such.

By the way I am happy to see the name calling is over and we are back to normal healthy discussion.

Francisco.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I believe Angelic you are in these case a great example on how parents should behave. You take responsibility, you deal out first your own punishment and then you hand him over to the justice system.

I wish all parents would act as such.

By the way I am happy to see the name calling is over and we are back to normal healthy discussion.

Francisco.

And then the Justice system sees that this child has been beaten (and rightly, so in my opinion) and takes steps against the parent for being a parent.

(I hate emoticons, but this is one time it is appropriate.)

It never fails that the parents who take responsiblity are the ones who get into trouble. The "others" breed like rabbits...

 

[catalina_francisco]

It never fails that the parents who take responsiblity are the ones who get into trouble. The "others" breed like rabbits...

Hey, do not insult rabbits, I like rabbits, they are nice, cute and cuddly. The greatest thing about them is that when you get tired of them you just cut their throat and put them in a stew. They are like edible toys.

Francisco.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Let's make this simple shall we?

Don't ever assume you have the slightest clue what i meant to say.

Based on the following,

Mine have everything to do with his failure to behave in a manner commensurate to the way i had raised him.

i believe i made it quite clear that the boy failed. i will ask questions of any child of mine before they leave and upon their return because i don't want a girl's parents coming after my child in my home, a cop showing up because my child commited hit and run, or any other myriad of things that might have gone wrong. That's what i signed up for when i decided to father a child.

If you'd bothered to read what you were quoting,

i never engage without facts ...

you had no reason to assume,

... This has the flavor "Certainly there will be a trial befor the hanging." ...

and it shows you worked from assumptions in your mind, or spent too much time running back to edit what you meant in the first place.

 

[Pure]

You are a very angry guy, Angel. That's the reason for all the venom in trying to straighten out your own ill-expressed posting (see below, in full), which was reviewed without personal animosity.

You say,
"Don't ever assume you have the slightest clue what i meant to say"

On the contrary, my "guess" (see below at *) as to what you wanted to say is exactly--put in a couple dozen words--what you now say you meant in a hundred ill-tempered words.

Angel's original statement.

i never engage without facts, unless i perceive an immediate danger re a safety issue. He gets his say, then the ass whipping begins

There is a real disorder in this thread when some make very fuzzy statements and bald or cryptic assertions, badly expressed, and when that's mentioned, holler and scream insults at the questioner, instead of saying calmly, "Let me clarify, in case some have mistaken my meaning...."

Regards,

J.

--
*Pure: Hence I believe Angelic perhaps (?) meant to say,

"He [son] gets his say, and unless it convinces me of his innocence, then the ass whipping begins. "

-------

Angel's entire spewing, reproduced below:


Let's make this simple shall we?

Don't ever assume you have the slightest clue what i meant to say.

Based on the following,
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by AngelicAssassin
Mine have everything to do with his failure to behave in a manner commensurate to the way i had raised him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i believe i made it quite clear that the boy failed. i will ask questions of any child of mine before they leave and upon their return because i don't want a girl's parents coming after my child in my home, a cop showing up because my child commited hit and run, or any other myriad of things that might have gone wrong. That's what i signed up for when i decided to father a child.

If you'd bothered to read what you were quoting,
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by AngelicAssassin
i never engage without facts ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

you had no reason to assume,
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Pure
... This has the flavor "Certainly there will be a trial befor the hanging." ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and it shows you worked from assumptions in your mind, or spent too much time running back to edit what you meant in the first place.

 

[s'lara]

Let's make this simple shall we?

Don't ever assume you have the slightest clue what i meant to say.

Based on the following, i believe i made it quite clear that the boy failed. i will ask questions of any child of mine before they leave and upon their return because i don't want a girl's parents coming after my child in my home, a cop showing up because my child commited hit and run, or any other myriad of things that might have gone wrong. That's what i signed up for when i decided to father a child.

If you'd bothered to read what you were quoting, you had no reason to assume, and it shows you worked from assumptions in your mind, or spent too much time running back to edit what you meant in the first place.

,

 

[scarlet vixen]

SLara said ' . I'm glad someone can be concise around here!

I reply, following the example .

In case the nutshell answer is too short, for some...

Seeing the carnage and spilled blood on this thread, I have two simple questions for posters, given the problems of all communication, especially electronic:

Does anyone ever, on reading a thread, seeing that it seems to say something odd or just not entirely understanding it, ever say,
"I'm not sure what you mean, would you please clarify?" (psst pure)

Does anyone ever, on seeing a reply that seems _not_ to be based on what one said that was thought to be obvious, ever say,
"I think you misunderstand. Let me explain again what I was trying to say."

This is not meant to criticize anyone or tell them what to do or to do anything differently. It's just a couple ideas in case the chair throwing, Jerry Springer scene is getting a bit tedious for anyone else.

SV

 

[catalina_francisco]

I am all in favour for a healthy open and lively discussion but I am feeling that I have to fully agree with scarlet vixen here.

Can we please all grow up and behave.

If there is a problem with the way someone posts tell them, in a friendly polite manner. If they keep doing it, tell them again and if they keep doing it use the ignore button.

I know some of you have a problem with how Pure quotes others. Well tell him and keep telling him. It is my experience that if you feel offended by something that anyone on the board has done PM’s can be a very good tool in solving issues.

Francisco

 

[catalina_francisco]

I also have to echo SV's words and call for some decorum from people on the board. Yes, things have been a bit slow around here of late, but I am not sure I understand how that is improved upon when threads addressing real and interesting topics are hijacked continuously. I, and obviously others too, personally prefer a good dialogue from various perspectives, and discussion of those differences, even when it gets a little heated and lively, as long as the topic remains in some form, and the need for personal grandstanding is suppressed. A little comedic relief can go a long way to relieving the heat at times, but sometimes can go over the top, just as the flaming seems to.

It is easy enough to get irritated with someone else's response and I'm sure we have all been there at least once, but I always believed this area of sexuality had some form of ethical codes as in how you treat each other, and yes, I know some are in disagreement with or unaware of it, but while surfing some sites last night for the first time in ages, there it was again on nearly all sites...messages about respecting others and their right to differ, acting with some sort of credible ethics and good manners. So is that possible so we can get back to stimulating positive communication instead of descending to the level many bulletin boards out there are noted for? I think we have shown in the past we are here to share and support each other, some more than others, but many have commented on the refreshing change to find a board where brains are engaged in an informative way, so let's not now join the other flaming and slanging boards that exist in abundance.

Catalina

 

[scarlet vixen]

I have a question for Angelic Assassin,

he said,
"No, i would have drug his battered, bruised, and broken ass to the police myself."

In what ways have you found it useful to beat(batter, bruise) a teenager for breaking the rules? and let's assume there really was something 'bad' done, there's no mistakes, false accusations etc.

I ask because I received a number of these from 'pops' as a teen, for staying out to late with a boy etc. Hey I've even got a couple batterings from the boyfriend when I came home drunk.

I haven't found these methods to 'work' very well. From the _guys_ point of view. Make me do any different, except maybe leave. But maybe I'm what you call incorrigible and wicked without possibility of reform.

Just Curious.

SV

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Sorry Francisco,

By the way I am happy to see the name calling is over and we are back to normal healthy discussion.

Francisco.

i see the barbs,

You are a very angry guy, Angel. That's the reason for all the venom in trying to straighten out your own ill-expressed posting ...

Angel's entire spewing, reproduced below:

... what you now say you meant in a hundred ill-tempered words.

still hold sway. Both you,

I believe Angelic you are in these case a great example on how parents should behave. You take responsibility, you deal out first your own punishment and then you hand him over to the justice system.

I wish all parents would act as such ... Francisco.

and s'lara,

,

seemed to understand me without problem.

Now, for the sake of those that have asked,

... If there is a problem with the way someone posts tell them, in a friendly polite manner. If they keep doing it, tell them again ... I know some of you have a problem with how Pure quotes others. Well tell him and keep telling him ...

Francisco

myself included,

... If you're going to call BS, your words, at least point it in the right direction. i don't have to figure out what you were attempting to say without having to scour the entire thread.

Better yet, try using the quote button, multiple windows and use cut and paste. i can skip the "What the hell did he just say," and get on to the subject matter.

Pure, please try using the quote button. In addition; if you use multiple windows to quote, cut, and paste; you might find the rest of us understand you, and don't give you,

Originally posted by Pure ... very fuzzy statements and bald or cryptic assertions, badly expressed ...

nor,

Originally posted by Pure ... when that's mentioned, holler and scream insults at the questioner.

i won't ask you, Pure, to edit your posts before you submit them. If you, Pure, would rather post, then edit anywhere from 5 to 10 minutes later; i'll simply wait an hour, 3 hours, maybe even 24 to see if your thoughts have solidified.

i think i've made my point, and i believe others, if not you, Pure, understood it.

Oh, and have a nice day.

 

[niteshade]

Ok... I am going to post this for all of you people with no real life experience in dealing with a situation involving child abuse. If anyone else here has tried to report child abuse to the authorities and been successful in having them deal with it, THEN you can preach to me about the kind of justice AA, EB, and Mari are talking about being wrong...

Until then, SHUT THE FUCK UP!

I am 23 years old, and I have custody of my two teenaged sisters... they are 16 and 17. The reason I have custody of them is because they were being sexually and physically abused by my mother's boyfriend. I found out about it, and after careful planning managed to convince that bitch I call a mother to allow me to bring my sisters to Texas for a one week vacation. When I had them safely in Texas and away from him I contacted all of the appropriate agencies. I contacted child protective services in Oklahoma... I contacted them here in Texas... I made police reports... I contacted counselors. No one gave a damn. It didn't happen in Texas, so they wouldn't do anything here... The girls weren't in Oklahoma anymore, so they wouldn't talk to me there.
I was interrupted, transferred around, ignored, and hung up on.

I had police officers calling me and harassing me, saying that I was going to be charged with felony kidnapping if I didn't bring them back... My response was that I would bring them back if I could be assured that they would be placed in protective custody until the investigation was completed. Their response? Oh, no, we can't do that... just send them back into the home of a man who has done prison time for assaulting a police officer, and blindly believe that he is not going to retaliate against them for blowing the whistle, when he had already sent them to the hospital with cracked ribs and assorted other injuries.

After several days, I finally got CPS in Oklahoma to at least question him... he admitted to certain acts, such as making my sisters watch pornographic movies with him and jacking off in front of them. That was just the tip of the iceberg, but that is what he ADMITTED to. At that point I stopped being threatened with kidnapping charges, at least... and CPS told the egg donor that if she didn't leave my sisters with me they would be placed in foster care, at least temporarily. However, no charges where ever filed on him, though I said I would bring the girls to Oklahoma to testify, or be interviewed or whatever they needed. Nothing was done. This means that that sick bastard is running around loose somewhere, ready and able to do the same thing to some other 14 or 15 year old girl (or boy, some of the movies he had them watch showed very young boys in gay scenes)

Would I kill him if I could???? Oh, please believe it. I didn't do it at the time as I have no intention of going to jail and leaving my sisters all alone... and now I don't know where he is. Do I have a loaded gun with his name on it, if he ever dares show his face again? Oh yes. I would shoot his balls off and let him bleed to death while I stood over him and smiled.

No one who has not been in the situation has any right to tell me how they think it should be handled. You go right on believing in Truth, Justice, and the American way... I am the one who has to deal with two fucked up young girls who got no justice. Death is too good for him... or for anyone who abuses a child.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Hello Niteshide,

First let me thank you for sharing such a deep and emotional experience you have had. Secondly if in any way I have insulted or hurt your feelings by pointing continuously towards the justice system I apologize for it.

I do still believe in the justice system, because I basically do not have any other choice it is the only thing we have. It is full of injustices like you describe. Would the b.. ever show up on your doorstep and you do put a bullet through his brain, do it smartly, use the law to your advantage and make sure you can get away with it, a person like that is not worth destroying your life over.

Francisco.

 

[niteshade]

Hello Niteshide,

First let me thank you for sharing such a deep and emotional experience you have had. Secondly if in any way I have insulted or hurt your feelings by pointing continuously towards the justice system I apologize for it.

I do still believe in the justice system, because I basically do not have any other choice it is the only thing we have. It is full of injustices like you describe. Would the b.. ever show up on your doorstep and you do put a bullet through his brain, do it smartly, use the law to your advantage and make sure you can get away with it, a person like that is not worth destroying your life over.

Francisco.

I am sorry if I went off the deep end a little... I did not finish reading the thread completely before I posted... actually I was in the process of writing an apology to everyone. Not to say that I don't still feel that way... I do.

I did find your post stating your reasons for allowing the justice system to handle things first... and the fact that I would go to jail IS the reason he isn't already dead. I would have to be smart about it, as you say.

I just got irritated because people seemed to be coming down on Eb and AA for saying that they would kill the person... as far as the info posted, they have no way of knowing what they would really do, as they have not been there. I also wanted to point out, from a real life stand point, that the justice system does not work in cases like this... and I find it much more humane to the future victims he is sure to have to just take him out of the equation.

Again, I apologize if you took it as me flaming you... I really was not talking to you in particular, and I should not have been so emotional about it.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled arguing.