Extreme Discipline

[Ms_Kat]

I've enjoyed the posts here. I hope my opinion can hold its weight.

First, as someone noted (sorry, forgot who) "extreme" is somewhat relative. However, I do think that the examples given in the first post could generally be accepted as such (withholding food, not being allowed to speak for days).

OSG also notes that discipline and punishment are very different horses. Punishment is to stop a targeted behavior. Discipline is to teach a person to exercise sufficient control over themselves to adhere to behavioral expectations with lack of direct supervision.

My first reaction, especially to the withholding of food, is that is can walk the line that separates acceptable behavior from simple abuse. Of course, there is nothing wrong with skirting that line. That is the point of having a line, even if it's a bit blurry at times.

BDSM allows behaviors that would not be acceptable in other relationships. To someone outside of the relationship, it may be difficult to understand and it may look like it is way on the other side of the line.

I would put forth that you cannot determine if a specific action is either punishment or discipline without knowing why it is being administered. Take, for example, the withholding of food.

If I impose dietary restrictions on someone, (perhaps because of medical needs, perhaps not) and find out they have not been adhering to their diet, and then withhold food in response, that is punishment. The idea is to make them stop cheating on their diet.

However, if I accept a new servant and withhold food from them for a few days so they can understand what kind of power they have given me, that would be discipline. It teaches them the boundary (or lack of boundary) of the relationship.

If I find my servant masturbating without permission and forbid them orgasm for an extended period of time, then I am punishing them. If I impose the same limit so that they learn to focus more on my desires than their fulfillment, then that is discipline.

I don't think that I need to be put in a submissive position in order to learn to be a more effective domme. However, I do agree with the sentiment that you cannot hope to control someone without first controlling yourself. You cannot learn love from hate, nor can you learn discipline from chaos.

Hugs,


Kat

 

[AngelicAssassin]

... Also I see that the focus on elite units may be misguided for reasons bb and you suggest: that they're trained in a degree of improv and independence.

Likewise the 'team' issues were not dealt with.

I'd propose then to focus on the 'grunt' 'leatherneck' or private who's got to climb out of the boat or trench and go after the enemy as commanded.

So, Angelic, describe roughly the methods of training and discipline (in principle, not detail), and where 'self' and 'will' and even 'individual survival' come in or don't.

Thanks for some interesting points.

Not just elites, all. You see more improv and independent thinking from the elites because the opportunity arises more often. If you like, we can take this to PM because the thread has "turned." imo, i'll detract from the current distillation process by returning to military discipline.

 

[Pure]

Yes, AA.
The military side of this issue will be put into another thread. Sorry to interrupt, OSG.

 

[ownedsubgal]

I've enjoyed the posts here. I hope my opinion can hold its weight.

First, as someone noted (sorry, forgot who) "extreme" is somewhat relative. However, I do think that the examples given in the first post could generally be accepted as such (withholding food, not being allowed to speak for days).

OSG also notes that discipline and punishment are very different horses. Punishment is to stop a targeted behavior. Discipline is to teach a person to exercise sufficient control over themselves to adhere to behavioral expectations with lack of direct supervision.

My first reaction, especially to the withholding of food, is that is can walk the line that separates acceptable behavior from simple abuse. Of course, there is nothing wrong with skirting that line. That is the point of having a line, even if it's a bit blurry at times.

BDSM allows behaviors that would not be acceptable in other relationships. To someone outside of the relationship, it may be difficult to understand and it may look like it is way on the other side of the line.

I would put forth that you cannot determine if a specific action is either punishment or discipline without knowing why it is being administered. Take, for example, the withholding of food.

If I impose dietary restrictions on someone, (perhaps because of medical needs, perhaps not) and find out they have not been adhering to their diet, and then withhold food in response, that is punishment. The idea is to make them stop cheating on their diet.

However, if I accept a new servant and withhold food from them for a few days so they can understand what kind of power they have given me, that would be discipline. It teaches them the boundary (or lack of boundary) of the relationship.

If I find my servant masturbating without permission and forbid them orgasm for an extended period of time, then I am punishing them. If I impose the same limit so that they learn to focus more on my desires than their fulfillment, then that is discipline.

I don't think that I need to be put in a submissive position in order to learn to be a more effective domme. However, I do agree with the sentiment that you cannot hope to control someone without first controlling yourself. You cannot learn love from hate, nor can you learn discipline from chaos.

Hugs,


Kat

good post.

 

[AvaAdore]

I'm not necessarily a masochist as I don't want to be branded either. I would however put myself through or have an experienced Domme put me through anything that I would be prepared to do to someone else. I would want to have an in depth understanding of what was going on. I would want to know everything. Also, I wouldn't want to accidentally hit myself with a whip and scream like a sissy. That would be kinda embarassing.

i think i am more of a pain slut than a masochist, as i dont necessarily crave to be denied anything. i just really enjoy the torture.

having said that, i break boards at taekwon do with kicks, and then hop around on one foot going "owowowow"


i agree that extreme discipline is in the eye of the beholder. withdrawl of food for a few days but still supplying water, vitamins, etc isn't really harmful for a healthy person. however, withdrawl of coffee is a cruel, cruel thing to do and would definately be classified as abusive in my opinion

 

[crimsonlace]

however, withdrawl of coffee is a cruel, cruel thing to do and would definately be classified as abusive in my opinion

But most effective. I know from experience.

 

[Kajira Callista]

But most effective. I know from experience.

add ciggies to that and you have the perfectly learned lesson

 

[crimsonlace]

add ciggies to that and you have the perfectly learned lesson

*whimper*

 

[Pure]

if i read osg correctly, she's focussing on _discipline_ and not on punishment for any specific misdeed, wrong thought, etc.

the discipline is to teach, e.g, about who is whose property. it has a 'general reason' only.

thus it seems that the measure could be imposed *arbitrarily. the top does not need a specific reason, other that it pleases him/her and that the bottom is 'taught a lesson' in humility.

i've seen no comments on this.

is anyone uncomfortable with a whimsical exercize of power designed simply to demonstrate the 'right' to whimsical exercize, and the bottom's deservedly receiving such a 'lesson.'

i'm not*.

*added; that is, not uncomfortable with such exercize [=no]

 

[Shadowsdream]

if i read osg correctly, she's focussing on _discipline_ and not on punishment for any specific misdeed, wrong thought, etc.

the discipline is to teach, e.g, about who is whose property. it has a 'general reason' only.

thus it seems that the measure could be imposed *arbitrarily. the top does not need a specific reason, other that it pleases him/her and that the bottom is 'taught a lesson' in humility.

i've seen no comments on this.

is anyone uncomfortable with a whimsical exercize of power designed simply to demonstrate the 'right' to whimsical exercize, and the bottom's deservedly receiving such a 'lesson.'

i'm not.

No..and you...how do you feel about it Pure?

 

[Pure]

i said, 'I'm not,' meaning [no, not uncomfortable with such arbitrary practice of power]

I added a note for clarification.

 

[s'lara]

i don't have a problem with a Dominant administering discipline without specifying their purpose for doing so. i also don't have a problem with a Dominant inflicting discipline simply for the sake of doing so. What may become problematic is the necessity to inflict "extreme" discipline on a constant basis. As in osg's example, incessant food deprivation can possibly lead to health issues. Repetitive disciplinary actions of this nature are totally out of the question.

i also don't have an issue with random discipline. As long as the Dominant is within their right to do so, discipline should be meted out at their choosing. i would hope that whatever method employed to discipline a submissive would be enacted with at least some forethought. You can't spontaneously decide to administer extreme discipline without taking into account all of the possible outcomes, e.g., forcing a week's worth of sensory deprivation on a submissive could possibly result in the manifestation of a phobia. Having the power to discipline at will does not absolve the Dominant of their responsibility to their property.

To address extreme discipline, well, i have to say that it might be necessary for some on occasion. There are those who require discipline of a harsh nature. It satisfies a need to tangibly feel power from another on an exalted level that resonates for quite some time. While some find this feeling in moderate discipline, others find it in extreme discipline. This is all obviously subjective as some have noted. Whatever the case, extreme discipline has its place.

lara

 

[Never]

Xtreme Disapline: Flogging while grinding fresh powder on your snowboard.

 

[AvaAdore]

Xtreme Disapline: Flogging while grinding fresh powder on your snowboard.

...while you are naked and your hair is on fire.

 

[Never]

Into a pit of asps and scorpians.

 

[AvaAdore]

Into a pit of asps and scorpians.

and then a wall of cow brains that you have to eat your way through.


(ugh, i've been watching fear factor)

 

[catalina_francisco]

the discipline is to teach, e.g, about who is whose property. it has a 'general reason' only.

thus it seems that the measure could be imposed *arbitrarily. the top does not need a specific reason, other that it pleases him/her and that the bottom is 'taught a lesson' in humility.

i've seen no comments on this.

is anyone uncomfortable with a whimsical exercize of power designed simply to demonstrate the 'right' to whimsical exercize, and the bottom's deservedly receiving such a 'lesson.'

I guess the reason why I didn't comment previously on this concept is because it has been discussed before in threads, and for us, it is a part of what works and is how we like it. In such relationships, it is usually recognised the Dominant has the right to act on their will with or without providing a reason simply because they are the one holding the power. Without that we would not be who we are, nor at peace with our relationship.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

I have a reason for doing things about 99 percent of the time.

I only choose to disclose that reason about 70-80 percent of the time.


ain't nobody's business if I do.

 

[tasskitty]

My Observations and Experiances

Hi all,

In my experiances dealing with extreme behavior modifications I have used both verbal and physical disiplines to enfocre my wishes.

In trying to make my submissive understand that she was an object to me and not my equal I took her name. Then when she didn't understand it at first I used the electric flyswatter
(its a small but sharp static shock with no lasting effects but hurts like hell) and zaped her everytime she did not address me as sir when in formal company. This punishment was swift and painful and over a short period of time the behavior was modified. there are stil times when it happens as a slip and you have to continue to apply the punishment with out fail or the procedure will stop working and the behavior will fall back into old patterns.

I also saw a post about should a Dom have felt the same punishment that the submissive has felt before dealing it out. I would say yes to a point. I play with bullwhips, floggers, knives, hotwax, violet wands, etc and I need to know the kinds of effects to be aware of before using them on a sub. With the whip there is a fine line between a lashing and splitting someone open like a ripe watermellon. Also one needs to practice with their toys before trying them to prevnt looking silly or hurting yourself or others near by when using them.

Again this is just My two cents worth..

Tass

 

[s'lara]

Xtreme Disapline: Flogging while grinding fresh powder on your snowboard.

A Never sighting.

Hello ever Never.

lara (end hijack)

 

[Never]

It is Never, gracing the board once more with comments that rarely have anything to do with the subject at hand. Unlike my last sojourn, however, I now have experience with BDSM. I've can move myself from 'vanilla who knows nothing but acts like she knows everything' to 'vanilla who knows very little but acts like she knows everything'. It's a whole 'nother ball game.

s'lara, when I first spotted you I was worried that you wouldn't remember who I was. I'm trying to decide who I missed more on this board, you or Etolie and I can't make up my mind. Ah, you can listen to nightingales sing but you can never catch them in your hand. Pity that.

*continues with previous conversation*
... crawling naked through broken glass..

*remembers something*

s'lara:Having the power to discipline at will does not absolve the Dominant of their responsibility to their property."

No, it is the power that creates the responsibility and the more power given the more responsibility to take. I have engaged in three day, dawn-to-dusk fasts and found them physically unpleasant, though your body does get used to a regulated diet. Three days without any food whatsoever strikes me as a bit extreme. Well, extreme is the title of this thread so it strikes me as a bit ill considered. While I understand restricting when, what, or how much a submissive eats, simply starving one could make them more susceptible to illness, unproductive at work, and fatigued from even light tasks. Besides, afterwards their metabolism is going to overreact by storing more fat from foods.

Why not just strongly cut back their caloric intake for a week? Maybe it's not as enjoyable but self-control is needed on both sides.

 

[MissTaken]

A few thoughts:

First, for me, as a parent or in my relationship with scooter, discipline is specific. It is guidelines, rules or responses that are carefully considered and intended to teach a specific lesson or skill. Discipline is likely to be directly linked to the desired outcome. Therefore, withdrawing food in order to teach a submissive to eat properly or lose weight could be considered discipline, although it is something I wouldn't do for health reasons. Discipline is often designed to teach self discipline, in my little world.

Punishment may be intended to teach or achieve the same result, but may have little or nothing to do with the lesson to be learned.

Standing in the corner because he has violated an rule concerning orgasm control would be punishment.

Being brought to full erection and near climax repeatedly without being given permission to orgasm would be an act of discipline.

Arbitrarily excercising the same activity with no other end to achieve than my amusement is what our relationship is about. It is about Me, My wants, My desires and My fun. So, the arbitrary use of acts that could be considered discipline may have nothing to do with teaching anything. It isn't always about the sub, ya know?

Further comment, no I don't believe a Dominant has to have experienced what he or she expects teh sub to experience in order to be an affective Dominant. Yes, they need information and to use their power responsibly. I have never experienced CBT, yet it is one of my favorite activities.

I do believe a Dominant has a responsibility to care for their submissive and ensure that their health and safety remain in tact. For me, a healthy sub is better able to meet my various other needs.

Disclaimer: These views are not necessarily the views of Literotica, it's sponsors or its affiliates. I made it all up and it may be utter bullshit.

 

[Pure]

things seem to have taken a savage turn in misstaken-ville.

 

[MissTaken]

things seem to have taken a savage turn in misstaken-ville.

And it is Mahvelous! Simply Mahvelous!

 

[catalina_francisco]

And it is Mahvelous! Simply Mahvelous!

LOL, I can go with this 100%.

Catalina