Fat Chick Fetish?

[Netzach]

No. I don't think fat has ever been a widely accepted standard of beauty. And it's true that our lifestyles are creating an obesity epidemic that didn't really exist in the days when growing, raising and preparing food took more effort than driving up to a window and placing an order.

But I'm not saying fat. I'm saying, realistic.

Seriously, when women like Heidi Klum and Tyra Banks are said to be "too fat" to model any more...there is something seriously warped about that.

Nobody can sustain zero percent body fat and be healthy. That's why people die when they don't eat enough.

Bones and sunken cheeks are not beautiful. And yet we have young women literally starving themselves to achieve that look.

WHY????????

Men. Media. Fashion. In that order.

I disagree that it's this media frenzy or that women aren't as complicit as men are and sometimes more so.

Mothers.

That's the enforcement. Where's the first place a girl starts hearing this shit when she's little? And it may not be direct messages, though it usually is. Little pitchers listen to mommy bitching about her tummy.

I'm beginning to think we're being fed what we want and it's killing us, in terms of imagery. But we still want it.

I don't watch a lot of mainstream media and I don't think I've ever *purchased* one of these magazines. I think the last time I looked up a model for trashy eye candy purposes it was Alek Wek, who seems to simply have amazing genes and be very much a real woman.

 

[Gilroygal69]

I disagree that it's this media frenzy or that women aren't as complicit as men are and sometimes more so.

Mothers.

That's the enforcement. Where's the first place a girl starts hearing this shit when she's little?

Oh true. But where does Mom's fear and loathing of fat originate? It has to come from somewhere. We don't just wake up afraid of being fat. It's because society, through the media, has ingrained in us that being fat is bad.

Moms are just the mouthpieces for social and societal expectations.

 

[graceanne]

I hate to point this out, but the extreme emphasis of looks is not new, nor is the emphasis on weight. Women have been pressuring themselves and their daughters to fit the societal norm for as long as their have been clothes.

these days we starve ourselves, it used to be that we starved ourselves and squeezed ourselves into corsets that made it so we were much more likely to die in childbirth.

Or we broke our daughters feet over and over so that they'd be small, as was the style.

Or we took daily amounts of arsenic to make our skin really white.

Or, or, or.

This is nothing new, it's just the oldest insanity in the newest way.

 

[Gilroygal69]

This is nothing new, it's just the oldest insanity in the newest way.

Exactly.

But it used to be that women looked to iconic persons to emulate in terms of beauty. Royalty, court favorites, first ladies, artists and authors.

Now the majority of the women driving our trends are skeletal foul mouthed hoydens with more money than brains.

 

[Netzach]

Oh true. But where does Mom's fear and loathing of fat originate? It has to come from somewhere. We don't just wake up afraid of being fat. It's because society, through the media, has ingrained in us that being fat is bad.

Sure, but it's not like men banded together to say "all models must be skeletor."

That industry has plenty of women at the helm, it's not a secret cabal of gay men entirely. Most men that I've met don't find that unrealistic size zero on six feet that sexy. Seriously - I can think of one person I ever talked to in a wide world of phone sex that wanted to talk about runway models. Ever.

Size 6-8, tits, toned, sure. Unrealistic, for most, sure, but not that runway freak show. Women were the ones helming the Jessica Simpson has a fat ass brigade. Most men I think were like "I'd do that."

 

[JMohegan]

Oldest sculpted babe on record.

"The pronounced breasts, buttocks and genitals familiar in later Venuses are usually interpreted to be expressions of fertility."

So sayeth the BBC.



http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa78/johnmohegan/venus.jpg

 

[popcorn2721]

lemme get in on this conversation... yeah I love big girls, fat and chunky... round what ever you wanna call em. There is something so decadent about a big round ass in your face.

Im gonna quote MotoMoto from Madigascar 2 " I like em big, I like em chunky... I like big, I like em plumpy. I like em round with somethin' somethin'"
Check the vid, my kids love it too.


Madagascar 2: Big And Chunky featuring Moto



I knew you would dig it!


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2037/2348711277_3a6d898473.jpg

this is the Venus of Willendorf which is from the paleolithic period...

The Venus of Willendorf was carved from oolitic limestone, and was covered with a thick layer of red ochre when found. The figurine was unearthed during the Wachau railway construction in 1908.

 

[JMohegan]

I hate to point this out, but the extreme emphasis of looks is not new, nor is the emphasis on weight. Women have been pressuring themselves and their daughters to fit the societal norm for as long as their have been clothes.

these days we starve ourselves, it used to be that we starved ourselves and squeezed ourselves into corsets that made it so we were much more likely to die in childbirth.

Or we broke our daughters feet over and over so that they'd be small, as was the style.

Or we took daily amounts of arsenic to make our skin really white.

Or, or, or.

This is nothing new, it's just the oldest insanity in the newest way.

Women in Elizabethan times plucked their hairline back a few inches. Apparently, big foreheads were in fashion.

In the Renaissance, women put atropine in their eyes, to forcibly enlarge their pupils.

Somewhere on this board is a thread on fashion, in which modern Lit women rake their societal peers over the coals for alleged infractions. I remember asking why women do this, and one response being: the rules are established and pursued as alleged signs of taste and class. The point is competition and jostling for social status, like some men are into the expensive car thing.

But the overall point is: Netzach is right. Women torture themselves with a lot of details that men just don't care about. In large respect, women are creating and enforcing this hell for each other.

 

[JMohegan]

Women were the ones helming the Jessica Simpson has a fat ass brigade. Most men I think were like "I'd do that."

Exactly.

 

[graceanne]

Exactly.

But it used to be that women looked to iconic persons to emulate in terms of beauty. Royalty, court favorites, first ladies, artists and authors.

Now the majority of the women driving our trends are skeletal foul mouthed hoydens with more money than brains.

The royalty, court favorites, first ladies, artists and authors quite often qualified as foul mouthed hoydens with more money than brains.

Women were the ones helming the Jessica Simpson has a fat ass brigade. Most men I think were like "I'd do that."

Oh, my gosh. I am so glad I'm not the only one who say the idiocy of that. If Jessica Simpson is fat I wanna be fat. I was standing in line, looking at the 'fat' picture of her with another middle aged matron, and I said just that and she LAUGHED. I mean, REALLY HARD.

Oldest sculpted babe on record.

"The pronounced breasts, buttocks and genitals familiar in later Venuses are usually interpreted to be expressions of fertility."

So sayeth the BBC.



http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa78/johnmohegan/venus.jpg

It looks like a baked chicken.

In large respect, women are creating and enforcing this hell for each other.

Very true. I try not to pass this one to my daughters, but they're picking it up somewhere. My ten year old thinks she's fat, because she doesn't have a perfectly flat stomach. She knows better than to say it around me, though. Seriously pisses me off.

My seven year old said she was fat once, and just about got laughed out of the car. (She's underweight. Under doctors orders she's still on whole milk, because she has such a low percent of body weight.)

 

[popcorn2721]

They're really detailed though. Dimpled all over. No airbrushing back then and no care to, they're actually pretty dang fat and definitely not toned. Way outside our usual. Titian also.

We also have to consider what was considered beautiful in the romantic and baroque periods. It wasn't until Barbie was introduced in the 50s that the waif actually gained popularity. Feminine beauty was marked by the ability to have healthy children. Ruben painted women that were more round and fashionable as a reflection of the standards of beauty and is not himself responsible for creating popular reflection of women during the baroque period.

Damned Im glad all those years in art school did me some good.

 

[Netzach]

We also have to consider what was considered beautiful in the romantic and baroque periods. It wasn't until Barbie was introduced in the 50s that the waif actually gained popularity. Feminine beauty was marked by the ability to have healthy children. Ruben painted women that were more round and fashionable as a reflection of the standards of beauty and is not himself responsible for creating popular reflection of women during the baroque period.

Damned Im glad all those years in art school did me some good.

True. Although it's interesting to see the variation among Botticelli versus Titian, Parmagiano versus Raphael. There was certainly variation in beauty and Titian's babes were more fat-dimpled than others.

 

[JMohegan]

We also have to consider what was considered beautiful in the romantic and baroque periods. It wasn't until Barbie was introduced in the 50s that the waif actually gained popularity. Feminine beauty was marked by the ability to have healthy children. Ruben painted women that were more round and fashionable as a reflection of the standards of beauty and is not himself responsible for creating popular reflection of women during the baroque period.

Damned Im glad all those years in art school did me some good.

If the masses of humanity are all quasi-starving, Les Mis style, it doesn't surprise me at all that beauty elite = plump and dimpled.

 

[popcorn2721]

True. Although it's interesting to see the variation among Botticelli versus Titian, Parmagiano versus Raphael. There was certainly variation in beauty and Titian's babes were more fat-dimpled than others.

I think we are also seeing the departure of the Grecian influence that was held in such high regards by the Romans and finally the masters (Michelangelo, Leonardo) .

 

[Netzach]

If the masses of humanity are all quasi-starving, Les Mis style, it doesn't surprise me at all that beauty elite = plump and dimpled.

Actually it was the rise of the middle class. You probably had better opportunity for the shirtless and scrappy in Ren. Italy than contemporary US. Well, maybe not THAT much better, but not much worse.

 

[JMohegan]

Actually it was the rise of the middle class. You probably had better opportunity for the shirtless and scrappy in Ren. Italy than contemporary US. Well, maybe not THAT much better, but not much worse.

What was the rise of the middle class? My apologies, you lost me here.

 

[Netzach]

What was the rise of the middle class? My apologies, you lost me here.

The Renaissance. The Dark ages were more the kind of hordes of smeary peasants with no food era, by about 1600 a lot of them had morphed into merchants and artisans and traders and whatnot.

Not all, but a lot. Big exodus from food producing serfdom. Renaissance Venice was shockingly like 1800's NYC.


Popcorn, true that, and onto some interesting distortions, too!

 

[popcorn2721]

The Renassance. The Dark ages were more the kind of hordes of smeary peasants with no food era, by about 1600 a lot of them had morphed into merchants and artisans and traders and whatnot.

Not all, but a lot. Big exodus from food producing serfdom. Renaissance Venice was shockingly like 1800's NYC.


Popcorn, true that, and onto some interesting distortions, too!

Thank You

I agree with you... it is my belief and understanding that the shear miserable bleakness of the DarkAges 10k-14k (extreme poverty and oppression) were responsible for the popularity of Christianity... it seems like heaven was the only thing the miserable peasants could look to. They were glad to die.


If you look at Hieronymus Bosch's work, "the Garden of Delights" from the early 1500s (I had to look up the production date up in a book)depicts a graphic view of the afterlife.

 

[JMohegan]

The Renaissance. The Dark ages were more the kind of hordes of smeary peasants with no food era, by about 1600 a lot of them had morphed into merchants and artisans and traders and whatnot.

Not all, but a lot. Big exodus from food producing serfdom. Renaissance Venice was shockingly like 1800's NYC.


Popcorn, true that, and onto some interesting distortions, too!

Oh, okay. Thanks for clarifying.

When did poor people start to get fat? That seems, to me, to be a relevant question.

Popcorn made the point that Barbie brought the waif into popularity. My only point was: If standards of beauty are related to status and class, and poor people are waifs (like the girl in Les Mis), then who wants to look like that?

 

[ChainedEros]

Oh, okay. Thanks for clarifying.

When did poor people start to get fat? That seems, to me, to be a relevant question.

Popcorn made the point that Barbie brought the waif into popularity. My only point was: If standards of beauty are related to status and class, and poor people are waifs (like the girl in Les Mis), then who wants to look like that?

When fattening food became cheaper than healthy food. The advent of our fast-food culture and our sedentary lifestyles lead to obesity.

 

[midwestyankee]

Oh, okay. Thanks for clarifying.

When did poor people start to get fat? That seems, to me, to be a relevant question.

Popcorn made the point that Barbie brought the waif into popularity. My only point was: If standards of beauty are related to status and class, and poor people are waifs (like the girl in Les Mis), then who wants to look like that?

This is very much the case. These days, because it takes money to pay for an exercise venue, eat the leanest meats, the freshest produce, and food made without a lot of corn syrup, (not that it hasn't always), the rich are thin and the poor are fat.

 

[popcorn2721]

Oh, okay. Thanks for clarifying.

When did poor people start to get fat? That seems, to me, to be a relevant question.

Popcorn made the point that Barbie brought the waif into popularity. My only point was: If standards of beauty are related to status and class, and poor people are waifs (like the girl in Les Mis), then who wants to look like that?

Like Oliver Twist, Les Miserable is a modern creative production. The characters psyche and physical attributes seem real enough that one can even admire the qualities that spew from the authors. I have to say that I know of no-one who would like to change places with the child characters in either of those stories. While I actually think that some of the "classics" are overrated, you do have to consider how many downtrodden human beings were part of the general populace. I dont think it was so much a matter of class but Im sure having all your teeth and not dying off when the plague erupted on your side of town, increased ones chances of actually securing a mate they weren't shocked to look at when they woke in the morning. Keep in mind that life was short and cheap back then.

 

[Netzach]

Thank You

I agree with you... it is my belief and understanding that the shear miserable bleakness of the DarkAges 10k-14k (extreme poverty and oppression) were responsible for the popularity of Christianity... it seems like heaven was the only thing the miserable peasants could look to. They were glad to die.


If you look at Hieronymus Bosch's work, "the Garden of Delights" from the early 1500s (I had to look up the production date up in a book)depicts a graphic view of the afterlife.

True. But also a particularly trippy one. Think he was into some bad rye bread?

 

[Netzach]

Oh, okay. Thanks for clarifying.

When did poor people start to get fat? That seems, to me, to be a relevant question.

Popcorn made the point that Barbie brought the waif into popularity. My only point was: If standards of beauty are related to status and class, and poor people are waifs (like the girl in Les Mis), then who wants to look like that?

In the 20th century with the advent of corn syrup.

Seriously.

 

[JMohegan]

This is very much the case. These days, because it takes money to pay for an exercise venue, eat the leanest meats, the freshest produce, and food made without a lot of corn syrup, (not that it hasn't always), the rich are thin and the poor are fat.

This is my point, exactly.

And why the standards of beauty are now slender rather than Rubenesque.