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[ladyphoenix]

ooops...FORGOT ONE THING

"NOW I GUESS IT'S PROBABLY GOOD THAT PEOPLE WHO HAVE INAPPROPRIATE FANTASIES INVOLVING THEIR SONS & DAUGHTERS HAVE AN OUTLET ON LITEROTICA"


Wolf....shame on you.

ANYONE who has "inappropriate fantasies involving their sons & daughters" is SICK. You are referring to people who have REAL sexual thoughts about what they would/want to do to their own children. That is NOT INCEST FANTASY.

Why do you think that anyone who comes to Lit in any regard involving incest FANTASY really has those thoughts about their children? You see, you are making the assumption that such a thing is the truth and it IS NOT!!!!!!

I have spoken to men on this site who freely admit either having those thoughts and just not acting on them OR admitting to having had some sexual contact with minors, sometimes their own kids and sometimes not. I ALWAYS try to find a way to figure out who they are, and report them to CMs and try to get them reported to law enforcement. The truth is, they are out there...and they love bragging, and I have been known to rip their throats out publicly in the Lounge for it.

However, I have the feeling a lot of them lie, thinking that the female they are speaking to wants them to act as if they've done those things...I just don't get that garbage at all. It's sick. (YES, I'm making a judgement. ANY TIME the fantasy gets confused or mixed in with the real is SICK...they must be kept MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE).

Okay, now I think I've covered all the bases on my answer.

 

[wolf2002]

Wow,

I had no idea you were so involved in the issue. But I'm glad I raised the subject though I agree this is not the right forum for it.... Hope they don't catch us.

Yes, you did give a very clear answer and I agree with most of what you say. However, I doubt if every Literotica visitor is capable of such a clear distinction like yourself between fantasy and reality. As you see, I also kind of missed it...

So the issue still is: will the open-mindedness about incest on Literotica be taken as an encouragement by tempted parents/familiars who just need some reaffirmation on what they (are planning to) do is not uncommon....

Unlike you I haven't thought about it really untill today. I guess I have the same opinion on this matter as on prostitution, drugs, euthanesia, rape etc... : just not talking and writing about it is never the solution to prevent people from doing it. Better be open and very clear about it and always try to draw a straight line between right and wrong.

Good discussion though. I visited Literotica mainly for the sexual kicks but I start to like the intellectual ones as well..

 

[NCmVoyeur]

Mere semantics . . . or not

I'm combining two posts into one here.

[Wolf, y]ou are referring to people who have REAL sexual thoughts about what they would/want to do to their own children. That is NOT INCEST FANTASY.

What, pray tell, is that then?

One could label this a matter of semantics; I'm suggesting though that the way you're labeling the categories makes no sense.

You seem to be saying that getting aroused at a fictionalized account of a person having sex with a close relative is an 'incest fantasy,' but that getting aroused at the thought of sex with one's actual relative isn't. Huh? The latter seems more properly termed an incest fantasy than the former. The former is merely a voyeuristic interest in other people having sex, the thrill heightened by the added 'taboo' nature of the subject. But it's merely the illusion of incest; not really incest. A father having sexual thoughts about his daughter really IS an incest fantasy.

So WHY DO I WRITE ABOUT INCEST???? Good question. Darlin, I'm 40, so I've been away from my father since he booted me out at 16 (the ultimate cost of "telling") and I have had a sexual Daddy/Daughter fantasy for most of my adult life. Until about a year ago, I could NOT admit it; could not enjoy it; could not EVER seem to give it justification by writing about it. But then I learned something, and things changed. . . .

That said, why write incest stories? Because of what I learned in the last year. You see, MOST people think that an incest FANTASY is the same as INCEST. They think that if you have an incest fantasy, you are sick.

. . . .

Rape fantasy is not the actual desire to be raped in reality. It is a metaphoric fantasy about being able to give up our control. About making someone else responsible for our sexual pleasure, for which we feel guilt. . . .

Likewise, incest fantasy has an underlying psychological basis. It is not about being incested; it's about relationship, just as rape fantasy is not about rape, it's about control.

. . . .

How's that for an answer?

Hmmm. Incomplete?

I'm not trying to pick on you here. You're raising interesting questions which fascinate me.

You've set up some premises, but haven't tied them together. You need to explain the connection between the ideal of the relationship and the sexual arousal. At some level, you must find the fantasy arousing or else you wouldn't write about it. The question remains, why is it arousing?

People may wish to idealize the father-daughter relationship, but why sexualize it in order to achieve that? Why aren't your stories about a wonderful day spent shopping or talking or the father wiping every tear away from the hurt daughter's eye? So the answer 'it's about the relationship' seems incomplete.

The comparison to rape fantasies is interesting, but again I think you're only half on point. Actual rape involves the loss of control. In fantasy, a woman controls every detail from start to finish, from the color of the rapist's hair, to his build, to what he says, to where it takes place, etc. So the suggestion that a rape fantasy is about a woman being able to give up control doesn't make sense to me either. It seems more an act of taking back control, and in the process turning an unpleasant experience into a pleasurable one. (Though, I think the explanation of 'sex without guilt' does make sense.)

I haven't read your stories, but could it be that a principal motivation in writing is to turn what was unpleasant into a pleasant experience? To re-write history?

Just a thought.

 

[SleeperGT]

Re: Little Old English Teacher Me

Just kidding. Hey, I have a bachelor's in English Secondary Education, so I guess that's where it comes from. I want to be honest, but at the same time not hurt anyone. That can be very difficult.

Everyone should know to take any criticism with a grain of salt. What you offer is constructive criticism and obviously intended to help make for better and improved results.

Where's the hurt in being corrected? Personally, I'm grateful.

If being corrected by you "hurts", such pleasurable pain. Don't stop.

 

[ladyphoenix]

to NCm Voyeur re: Incest Fantasy

Yes, part of the problem is semantics. For the sake of my argument, I refer to "INCEST FANTASY" as the sexualized fantasy of the relationship which is INNOCENTLY enjoyed BETWEEN ADULTS. It has no beginning, middle or end in any real contact with a child OR thoughts about a real child. Those sick individuals who engage in INCEST are people who lust after REAL children in their lives or around them, or who desire to or engage in sexual activity with children in reality.

Thus, I speak of INCEST as evil and INCEST FANTASY as potentially innocent (I say potentially because there always exists the possiblity that someone will cross the line).


One of the things I forgot to mention here is vital, I think. When one indulges in INCEST FANTASY, (at least for myself, perhaps I shouldn't talk about others) I NEVER in any way, shape or form EVER put it in the context of my childhood. The "daddy" is never my real father, who is a bastard and a criminal and for whom I have never (nor will I ever) have ANY desirious sexual feelings. What happened to me to this day, when remembered, makes me literally shudder. If I told you some of the stories, you would shudder, too.

You ask me to set up the relationship between the relationship and the sexual arousal. Honestly, if I could, I'd be using it for a doctral thesis. If I were to venture a guess, however, I think that by and large, people engage in incest fantasy for two basic reasons:

A) It's the element of the forbidden, which you mentioned. I would venture to guess that these individuals have had no personal experience of incest in their lives.

and B) Those for whom the whole fantasy is almost a cathartic one, psychologically. Perhaps even a corrective one. Let me explain: (and geez, I'm getting personal here, so excuse me, but I think the point is valid)

I was brought up in a household where I was sexualized at a very early age. I knew that there were magazines like "Screw" and books about sex with horses before I was ten. I knew what lingerie was. I knew what a dildo was. I knew what vibrators were for. In my house, sex was rampant, and yet unspoken. Emotional displays of affection didn't exist, really. Perhaps in my mind, as a child I learned to equate sexuality WITH emotionality. Or at least I thought (remember, we're talking about the developing mind of a child here) that they were the same, or HOPED that they were, because that would have meant that my father loved me.

Hmm....."Why aren't your stories about a wonderful day spent shopping or talking or the father wiping every tear away from the hurt daughter's eye?". I wonder whether I should answer this as fully and honestly as I can.....

Because, dear sir, I do not have any idea what those things are like. And just now it occurs to me that this may be part of it....I DO NOT KNOW those things. I can honestly say I never went shopping with my father. The only talking he ever did was either to demand, or to put down. And as far as wiping every tear away...I remember when I cried, his reaction was generally to send me away, or often laugh. And so, how can I write something so beautifully poignant as those moments when I have never felt them? Nor will I ever. THAT is the other pain in incest...having your childhood taken away.

They say the best writing is to write what you know, and I think now, sitting her writing this reply, that it is very, very sad that for me to write about a relationship with a father, the only thing I know is sex. So perhaps that is how I best express that relationship. God, how deeply, painfully sad a realization.

"Could it be that a principal motivation in writing is to turn what was unpleasant into a pleasant experience?"

Oh, dear....I'm sorry to have to say this, but that is a question of ignorance. I understand your intention and I take no offense (and hope you take none in return) but even if I wrote for a lifetime, and had the mastery of every language, every nuance, and tongue and every great mind who has ever lived, I could never turn what my childhood was into something good. It is an impossibility beyond thinking, and no words can change that.

Let me leave you with a tiny piece of myself, which I thus far have only shared with a valued few. One of the most painful memories I have is my father putting a hand saw to my throat and telling me that he was going to saw my head off if I didn't do what he wanted.

How could words make that right?

 

[SleeperGT]

So sorry to hear that.

 

[ladyphoenix]

Thanks. But the most important thing is that I survived, with most of my faculties intact.

 

[wolf2002]

A very sad story Lady Phoenix but it's good to see you've managed to work it out. I feel you succeeded to take sufficient distance of your past to be able to cope with it and analyse (some of) it in a very sensible way...

Sufficient distance also to be able to think normally about sex and being open-minded by it. I think this kind of experience could also destruct somebody's sex life for ever, changing it in one of the two extremes...You are a strong person!

One thing I don't understand in your analysis: you probably write about incest for reasons as mentioned under B), but what do you mean by 'corrective'. As you state that your fantasies are never directly realted to your own experiences, how can they be 'corrective'?

I hope it doesn't sound like cheap psychology but wouldn't 'compensative' be a better word for it?

 

[NoJo]

Incest

LadyP,
Well, that explains why your stories are so real, with such an strong sense of power-games, and why you call yourself LadyPhoenix.

 

[wolf2002]

You're right... LadyPhoenix, risen out of her own ashes. How could I've missed that?

I must admit.. I tried to read Daddy's girl a couple of days ago and I couldn't. It repulses me, especially cause this little girls sexuality does excite me a lot...

Now that I know the autor's not some sicko but a really nice and intelligent person who knows what she's talking about, I tried again. But the story still disgusts me, I still had to force myself to read it...

 

[SleeperGT]

Same here. The one time I thought I'd try to read an incest story, I read the words but I can't understand them. For some reason, I cannot draw pictures or images in my head about what is being described. And I even have a hyperactive imagination.

 

[SleeperGT]

Thanks. But the most important thing is that I survived, with most of my faculties intact.

I'm very impressed, and very, very happy for you.

Edit: BTW, I hope you check your PM box.

 

[Guest]

Well whoop-tee fucking doo ! in regards to Phoenix's origin.

By the way, it is possible to sin without actually making a reality of your thoughts. Oh but that brings up religion, lets stay away from there!

 

[ladyphoenix]

The wise Unregistered One speaks again

You may not care, rude, anonymous person, but it's my life so I do, and I have in some small part shared it with those who have asked intelligent and thoughtful questions and who want honest answers. It is no end of amusement to me that you try to be so brave behind "UNREGISTERED". You know nothing about bravery, clearly.
If you do not care, then I wonder why you bother to spend time sending in a reply...Hmmm. What kind of emotional satisfaction do YOU get out of being mean and hateful to someone you don't know and obviously don't care about? Another interesting psychological question, readers of posts.

Yes, sin does not need action to be sin. Only intent. So, apparently your desire to hurt me and get away scot free (by not giving your name) would qualify? Hmm. And I would be happy to get into any sort of intelligent, tolerant and thoughtful discussion, even about religion, but I will not talk to you if you won't come out of the closet. So to speak.

 

[ladyphoenix]

To Wolf and SleeperGT


Hey, thanks gentlemen. Yes, GT I did check my pms and I'm working on it. (hope pms does not interfere.... )

And PLEASE, guys, don't ever "FORCE" yourself to read anything. what's the fun in that??

 

[wolf2002]

To this anonimous asshole: your stupid comments are getting pretty annoying. So come out of the closet and discuss in a normal way -- if not: Fuck off!

To Ladyphoenix: I know I shouldn't force myself, that's why I didn't finish it. Doesn't mean the story is bad. It's quite good actually, that's why it's getting to me. It's the rudeness of the daddy figure, the innocence of the girl, the intense 'I-You' form and the thought in the back of my head of a little girl with a handsaw to her throat. Makes me feel guilty to get aroused by the story. But hey, wasn't that ever the idea of porn in the first place: the combination of lust and good-old catholic guilt?

Nevertheless, I am starting to become a fan of your work. I just read 'Slave' and I loved every word of it.

 

[ladyphoenix]

Thinking wolfish thoughts....

Dear Wolf,
Don't try to think too hard about it, darlin...it's confusing enough as it is. To me, erotic writing is a celebration of our sexuality in whatever form we may give it, or in whatever form we may understand it.
Thank you for being such a gentleman and so gallant with Mr. Unregistered.
And thanks for being a fan. It's getting hot, and a lady can always use a fan when she's hot.
Hey....that will be my new signature line...thanks for the inspiration!

 

[wildsweetone]

hi ladyphoenix

it's good to see you up here. you give wonderful feedback. keep up the good work.

some people need a few more of life's experiences to understand that we are not all the same, but that is a part of life that we all must deal with in our own way.

i could no more ignore such comments as your unregistered reader has voiced, than you have.

for what it's worth, i applaud your courage, openness and honesty. a few more people with these attributes around and the world will be a better place indeed. hang in there dear, you're doing great.

*hug*
wildsweetone

 

[ladyphoenix]

Wild,
I don't know you, but I know from your postings that you're a real lady. It's a pleasure to receive a compliment so warm and genuine from you. The respect is mutual.

 

[wildsweetone]

oh golly

i have to whisper to you that i assuredly didn't post that last to you for any reason but to let you know i care and that i appreciate you. your return posting has filled me with completely unexpected warm fuzzies for which i thank you dearly

congratulations on your 100th posting!

 

[R M Roxinger]

Here's one of my stories

Hey Lady P,

Since I've never received a single feedback from anyone about my series, the Adventures of R.M. Roxinger, I'll let you be the first. The first chapter is at:
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=35111

 

[Guest]

RM and his adventures:

Dear RM,
Thanks for taking me up on the offer. I will have to admit before I begin that I am exhausted tonight...it's been a hectic week, to say the least. But I don't like to let feedback go too long without a response, so here goes:

I started by reading the entire story to get the feel of it, then went back to critique:

In your first paragraph you say that turning 18 was better "...than anything I'd ever experienced before." In a line like this, don't say "before". If this is the best thing, then we know it is better than all the things BEFORE it. After all, it couldn't be better than the things after it, since you don't have those experiences yet, right? So using "before" here is redundant. You then use the word "before" in the next sentence, drawing even more attention to it.

Please write "eighteen" instead of 18 and "three" instead of 3.

Careful about verb tenses...you have past "the other aforementioned powers were appealing" and present "I prefer soda pop..." Also, drinking beer and looking at Penthouse are not "powers" they are perhaps "priviledges"?

PLEASE never use symbols like & instead of a word!!


Overall, your story lacks the sentiment and personal attraction I look for in erotica. For example, at the end of paragraph one you say, "I longed to have sex with a girl with whom I'd gone steady throughout high school." The fact that "he" (the boy in the story) does not even bother to mention her by name here makes it seem as if he'd like to have sex with ANY girl, as long as she had completed the requisite four years of high school dating regimen with him, and not just one SPECIAL girl whom he loves/d(?) So you start out impressing me with the fact that he refers to his first sexual experience as "a girl", and doesn't extol all her desirable virtues.

Paragraph 2 begins with some information that MAY be interesting to some readers, (ie his birthday being 6-9) but when you continue to discuss what that means ("I've heard of "69" as a synonym for simultaneous oral sex & the month-day notation 6-9 spelled it out). Umm.....gee, how many people reading this story do you think didn't already know what 6-9 means sexually? And having it be the guy's birthday is a coincidence I might have forgiven, if you weren't shoving it down my throat so hard, following the definition up with telling us that his birthday month and date "spelled it out". We knew that already, too. Also, "6-9" does not "spell" anything out, it represents something.

You go on to tie in Woodstock. Okay, again I might have let that slide by without much comment, but you have to tell us what Woodstock was (I know I'm old at 40, but how many people out there don't know?). Even if half your readers needed that explanation of woodstock, trying to tie it in here because of the 69 reference is just really pushing it down our throats, and it's unnecessary.

The remainder of the story has a very sweet, sentimental intent behind it, I think, but misses the mark. Your action takes places in stops and starts and stutters ("Once I answered the door we embraced tightly & she drove me to my favorite Mexican restaurant."........"We....locked the door behind us & took our clothing off piece by piece."......"Once we were naked, we stood next to the bed with my arms around her waist & hers around my shoulders." etc.

First, if I were planning to make love for the VERY first time, I don't think I'd go to a Mexican restaurant and have enchiladas. Second, I do not care what they drank. It makes no difference to the story and isn't even interesting filler. If you told us how hot she made him by licking some of the condensation around the rim of her glass of her Pepsi, THAT might have conveyed with more effectiveness the foreplay. Essentially what you gave us was this:

1. We ate dinner.
2. We went home and stripped naked.
3. We held each other.
4. I kissed her like a baseball diamond.
5. We kissed for five minutes.
6. I kissed down to her breasts and sucked.

I know this seems ludicrous, but your story read like an instruction manual, not an erotic or even romantic story. There are no details, except when you mention him looking at her cream-white thighs. You need more of that, and no more symbols and numbers and abrupt sentences that seem to tell us that they stripped, separately and made love like machines.

"Though she had no milk to offer me, we seemed to know why the word "baby" applies not just to a newborn child, but extends to a person one's own age with whom one is sexuall intimate". First, I'm not sure what you wanted to use this line for, but it's so cold and clinical. Could you replace "...a person one's own age with whom one is sexually intimate." with "lover"? Do you see why one sounds clinical, and the other sounds personal? Your story isn't personal.

"It helped a lot that she was wet between the legs from wanting me as badly as I did her." So far, I haven't seen wanting. There hasn't been any gentleness; tenderness. No romance, no erotic tension. Just "slot A goes in tab B". He refers to making love to this girl for the first time as if he were driving a car "...I gradually accelerated until I reached top speed." What IS top speed for human strokes, anyway? 30 SPM? (strokes per minute?)


"We came simultaneously" Well what can I say about that? This is teenage fantasy.

"We spent about 10 more minutes lying on our sides & in each other's arms". This is your one liner afterglow, and it's lacking in feeling, or warmth. It's cold.


"Thanks for the date, Heidi, & the passion," I have to wonder if there was any passion, why didn't it get into the story? He says, "...my first night of adulthood was more special than any night before or since."

I hope he has been a monk since. To think that he would have to endure more "passion" like that makes me pity him, particularly if he thinks that's what it was.

RM, I think you have a good heart, and had good intentions. But your basic framework of action needs filler...it needs detail; description. It needs to be warm and alive, not cool and sterile. Don't TELL us she was wet from wanting him, SHOW us. Let us feel it in the way the lips of her sex yeild with delicious, warm shivers to his fingers...let us hear it in her moans (which she only does AFTER he starts fucking her in the last few lines before orgasm); let us see it in the way her eyes sparkle with arousal while he's undressing her.

Sorry, babe, but gotta say thumbs down. A big thumbs up, however, for your heart.

 

[ladyphoenix]

Oh, drat...I was too registered. *g*

 

[wildsweetone]

hi ladyphoenix

i hope you're doing ok, i haven't seen you around for a little while. i apologise for taking such a long time in getting back to your feedback. i have nearly turned my pc into a pile of nuts and bolts for disconnecting and deleting my 6 page feedback for you *teasing*.

here's the link for you dear

http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83003&pagenumber=5

 

[the__satyr]

Thanks for the Very Kind Offer

I would love any feedback you could offer on my stories. I have three uploaded now, with a fourth on the way shortly. I would especially love feedback on "Bewitched" and "Attended To."

My stories can be found on:
http://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=54730


Let me know if I can return the favour in some way.

Thanks!

the__satyr