For Those Who Might Be Wondering Why We Might Be In Ukraine

[Fuzzy1975]

How Bad Is It For Ukraine?​

By Larry Johnson Sep. 3, 2023 7:00 am



I

lol you and the author of this have never heard of oryx......

https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html

and that is just verifiable through satellite photographs, it doesn't tell the story of manpower.

Take a look at the battle pictures now, and you will notice something missing from those fields that the battles are in now....what's missing you might ask?

Artillery craters. Why, because the Ukraine's are now past the first line, and into the second line. Which is not layered with mines, trenches, nor set for pre planned artillery grids...and hasn't been under bombardment from both sides for the last 6 months.

 

[dkovic77]

I know exactly what I'm talking about, but you don't. You fart a lot.

You only think you do. That awkward sentence structure shows maybe some brain hiccups here and there.

Person, woman, man, camera, tv time!

 

[dkovic77]

There's nobody left in Ukraine to join the armed forces enthusiastically. They all joined a long time ago, and a lot of them are dead. A terrible waste of lives, the pointlessness of it has parallels with WW1.

Yeah well, time for folks to get some duel citizenships.

 

[ll74]

Backtracking? On what?

On what "winning" means for Russia. Which no one from Russia has ever defined. Putin has alluded to getting back Soviet Russia....which indicates a situation like Georgia or Belarus as a victory.

Maybe in the very early part of the war, but not since. It's actually better for Russia not to occupy the whole of Ukraine, firstly because holding down a hostile local population is a constant drain, secondly because the Euromaidan Ukrainian regime becomes a problem for the EU and NATO.

Ukraine should have, at the least, the 2016 border that is recognized by the international community.

You've got your tenses wrong. Ukraine has currently lost control of Crimea, nearly all the Black Sea coast and nearly all the Donbass. The Minsk Accords, which Ukraine and NATO showed complete contempt for, would have only seen Russian control in Crimea and the continued existence of the Lugansk and Donetsk Republics in the Donbass, with Ukraine maintaining control of all the Black Sea coast outside Crimea. That's all gone for Ukraine now.

Ukraine wants to keep all of Ukraine for Ukraine. They've said this, multiple times. That is what they've defined victory as.

Whether you like that goal or not is irrelevant....it's their country, not yours.

 

[RandyRebecca]

On what "winning" means for Russia. Which no one from Russia has ever defined. Putin has alluded to getting back Soviet Russia....which indicates a situation like Georgia or Belarus as a victory.

I told you what it means. I am not backtracking on it at all. Landlocking Ukraine and bridging to Transnistria to have land running from Russia proper to Transnistria/Moldova is what would be a big victory for Russia. It would mean Russia controlling all the Black Sea coast in the area, which geopolitically is what matters.

And Putin is more Imperial Russia than the Soviet Union, and even calling him a Tsar wouldn't be accurate. Putin regularly attacks Lenin and the Bolsheviks for things like pulling Russia out of WW1 and giving Ukraine autonomy.

Ukraine should have, at the least, the 2016 border that is recognized by the international community.

Deals in boardrooms are no match for battlefield realities. Russia has control of all the Black Sea coast east of the Dnieper river, and Ukraine's big advance has not happened. Time is also on Russia's side. They can dig their heels in and wait, while the Ukrainians continue to demand more money and more weapons from NATO to the increasing annoyance of western civilian populations who are expected to pay the financial price. Also, Biden has the problem of the 2024 presidential election coming up, with the Ukraine war acting like an ulcer, as Napoleon once described France's Peninsular War in Spain.

Ukraine wants to keep all of Ukraine for Ukraine

They want the 2013 borders. It's not going to happen.

They've said this, multiple times. That is what they've defined victory as.

Yes. It's not going to happen.

Whether you like that goal or not is irrelevant....it's their country, not yours.

It's still not going to happen. As the Russians are not likely to achieve precisely what would be the big victory for them without likely waiting for a long time, it's more likely that some sort of peace deal comes into play, and at best that would mean Ukraine keeping control of the Black Sea coast west of the Dnieper like at present, while losing it all east of the Dnieper like at present. If there's any intransigence from Ukraine or NATO, Russia will just carry on waiting it out.

 

[ll74]

I told you what it means. I am not backtracking on it at all. Landlocking Ukraine and bridging to Transnistria to have land running from Russia proper to Transnistria/Moldova is what would be a big victory for Russia. It would mean Russia controlling all the Black Sea coast in the area, which geopolitically is what matters.

Yes, I get that you believe that's what winning is for them

And Putin is more Imperial Russia than the Soviet Union, and even calling him a Tsar wouldn't be accurate. Putin regularly attacks Lenin and the Bolsheviks for things like pulling Russia out of WW1 and giving Ukraine autonomy.

I've never called him a tsar.

Deals in boardrooms are no match for battlefield realities. Russia has control of all the Black Sea coast east of the Dnieper river, and Ukraine's big advance has not happened. Time is also on Russia's side. They can dig their heels in and wait, while the Ukrainians continue to demand more money and more weapons from NATO to the increasing annoyance of western civilian populations who are expected to pay the financial price. Also, Biden has the problem of the 2024 presidential election coming up, with the Ukraine war acting like an ulcer, as Napoleon once described France's Peninsular War in Spain.

Yes, Russia wants to kill as many Ukrainians as they can.

They want the 2013 borders. It's not going to happen.


Yes. It's not going to happen.

That's great that you believe that. That doesn't mean they are required to lay down and take it.

It's still not going to happen. As the Russians are not likely to achieve precisely what would be the big victory for them without likely waiting for a long time, it's more likely that some sort of peace deal comes into play, and at best that would mean Ukraine keeping control of the Black Sea coast west of the Dnieper like at present, while losing it all east of the Dnieper like at present. If there's any intransigence from Ukraine or NATO, Russia will just carry on waiting it out.

Yes, Russia wants to kill as many Ulranians as they can.

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

A year late. Better late than never I suppose. We’ll never know how many Ukrainians died while Biden dithered.

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-send-long-range-atacms-missiles-ukraine-time/story?id=103031722

 

[Rightguide]

Victory at What Price in Ukraine?​

By David Lapp-Jost
September 09, 2023

How many Ukrainian lives is full-out victory over Putin and recovery of the Donbas and southern Ukraine worth? 100,000? 500,000? A million? It´s a more relevant question than most realize. Despite the flurry of Ukraine War coverage in Western media, a February 2023 Responsible Science Journal article on the war with insight into the true human cost until now went almost completely without notice. That article asked an obvious question that almost everyone else seemingly intentionally avoids “how many Ukrainians have died as a result of this war?” and the likely answer was 150,000 excess deaths – deaths above the normal expected rate -- only by February of this year. One might expect this question in every article about the war – how many people are dying? To improve human security in Ukraine and prevent future conflicts, we need to ask new questions, scrutinize war in new ways, and reflect on what it means to work for peace.

Virtually all day-to-day coverage of deaths and injuries in Ukraine focus on direct acts of violence: shelling, bombing, drone strikes, etc. Most Western reports cite Ukrainian claims for Russian casualties, suggesting catastrophic Russian losses while Ukraine loses small but distressing numbers of civilians and soldiers. But this accounting distorts the real costs of war, showing a rosy and false picture to keep up war morale.

In the last year and a half, Ukrainians lost much access to food, electricity, medicine, medical care, and heat, and saw reduced access to medical care. By February Ukraine probably suffered 150,000 excess deaths, perhaps with a further 70,000 deaths in Europe more broadly due to high power prices in the cold. With tens of thousands of Ukrainians since dead, this adds up to maybe four to five times the Russian losses, based on estimated Russian excess deaths. Hundreds of thousands of healthy young people have been injured and/or traumatized in an already-poor health care system. Millions are live as refugees in Europe, with only 1/3rd of the refugees wanting to return to Ukraine despite impoverishment and vulnerability to sex exploitation. Ukraine´s birthrate has plummeted. Realistically hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have already died and next winter may well again be very hard, perhaps even harder. War is crucifying Ukraine, and Ukraine may also be losing.

The question of loss of and injury to human life is deeply relevant to the political decision of how to approach the conflict. No war is ever fought to the last life – as wars become more costly, leaders – influenced by their publics – revisit the alternatives to war. Since spring of 2022, the Ukrainian and Western goal has been full recovery of occupied land, including Crimea, but this goal must be measured against the human cost. It is wrong to destroy a village in order to save it, as we have learned. How many hundreds of thousands would be too many? As we are already seeing Western media in various quarters start to do -- even NATO´s head -- great suffering and little gain leads to reflection. Ignoring war´s direct toll – not to mention the tens of millions of new food insecure people worldwide – dulls our instinct to seek other ways forward.

More here: https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2023/09/09/victory_at_what_price_in_ukraine_978456.html

Read on, it could get much worse. You now know why you're not hearing much about the war in Ukraine, the big Ukrainian offensive, etc. Because it's all bad news, bad for Ukraine, bad for the West, and bad for all of those who fell for the propaganda and are now face to face with the coming reality of having no face at all.

 

[Lazaran]

Victory at What Price in Ukraine?​

By David Lapp-Jost
September 09, 2023

How many Ukrainian lives is full-out victory over Putin and recovery of the Donbas and southern Ukraine worth? 100,000? 500,000? A million? It´s a more relevant question than most realize. Despite the flurry of Ukraine War coverage in Western media, a February 2023 Responsible Science Journal article on the war with insight into the true human cost until now went almost completely without notice. That article asked an obvious question that almost everyone else seemingly intentionally avoids “how many Ukrainians have died as a result of this war?” and the likely answer was 150,000 excess deaths – deaths above the normal expected rate -- only by February of this year. One might expect this question in every article about the war – how many people are dying? To improve human security in Ukraine and prevent future conflicts, we need to ask new questions, scrutinize war in new ways, and reflect on what it means to work for peace.

Virtually all day-to-day coverage of deaths and injuries in Ukraine focus on direct acts of violence: shelling, bombing, drone strikes, etc. Most Western reports cite Ukrainian claims for Russian casualties, suggesting catastrophic Russian losses while Ukraine loses small but distressing numbers of civilians and soldiers. But this accounting distorts the real costs of war, showing a rosy and false picture to keep up war morale.

In the last year and a half, Ukrainians lost much access to food, electricity, medicine, medical care, and heat, and saw reduced access to medical care. By February Ukraine probably suffered 150,000 excess deaths, perhaps with a further 70,000 deaths in Europe more broadly due to high power prices in the cold. With tens of thousands of Ukrainians since dead, this adds up to maybe four to five times the Russian losses, based on estimated Russian excess deaths. Hundreds of thousands of healthy young people have been injured and/or traumatized in an already-poor health care system. Millions are live as refugees in Europe, with only 1/3rd of the refugees wanting to return to Ukraine despite impoverishment and vulnerability to sex exploitation. Ukraine´s birthrate has plummeted. Realistically hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have already died and next winter may well again be very hard, perhaps even harder. War is crucifying Ukraine, and Ukraine may also be losing.

The question of loss of and injury to human life is deeply relevant to the political decision of how to approach the conflict. No war is ever fought to the last life – as wars become more costly, leaders – influenced by their publics – revisit the alternatives to war. Since spring of 2022, the Ukrainian and Western goal has been full recovery of occupied land, including Crimea, but this goal must be measured against the human cost. It is wrong to destroy a village in order to save it, as we have learned. How many hundreds of thousands would be too many? As we are already seeing Western media in various quarters start to do -- even NATO´s head -- great suffering and little gain leads to reflection. Ignoring war´s direct toll – not to mention the tens of millions of new food insecure people worldwide – dulls our instinct to seek other ways forward.

More here: https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2023/09/09/victory_at_what_price_in_ukraine_978456.html

Read on, it could get much worse. You now know why you're not hearing much about the war in Ukraine, the big Ukrainian offensive, etc. Because it's all bad news, bad for Ukraine, bad for the West, and bad for all of those who fell for the propaganda and are now face to face with the coming reality of having no face at all.

^
How much of the United States would "Right"guide SURRENDER to an invading nation to avoid some additional death and destruction???

It should also be noted that Russia has effectively stolen some of the most important economic assets of the sovereign country of Ukraine: Crimea, the Donbas, the Zapotizhzhia nuclear power station, and the Southern coast region. Should Ukraine cut their losses by ceding those regions to Russia???

"Right"guide continues to demonstrate cowardly and traitorous tendencies.

JFC

SAD!!!

 

[Rightguide]

UKRAINE

White House confirms more than $100B spent on Ukraine war​

Republican senators in January demanded the White House provide a full report on funds spent in Ukraine​

By Brooke Singman Fox News
Published September 12, 2023 10:30am EDT

EXCLUSIVE: The White House confirmed the Biden administration has spent more than $100 billion on the war in Ukraine, according to documents obtained by Fox News Digital.

The information came as a response from the White House’s Office of Management and Budget to Sen. JD Vance, R-Ohio and more than 30 Senate Republicans who demanded in January a "full crosscutting" report on security assistance provided to Ukraine.

More here: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/wh...n-100b-in-taxpayer-resources-spent-on-ukraine

Except for creating an excuse for the Pentagon to demand that more and newer weapons be produced and procured, and give the War industry the motivation to start packing more bribe money into congressional reelection campaign coffers, this whole investment has been a monumental failure.

 

[Sean Renaud]

UKRAINE

White House confirms more than $100B spent on Ukraine war​

Republican senators in January demanded the White House provide a full report on funds spent in Ukraine​

By Brooke Singman Fox News
Published September 12, 2023 10:30am EDT

EXCLUSIVE: The White House confirmed the Biden administration has spent more than $100 billion on the war in Ukraine, according to documents obtained by Fox News Digital.

The information came as a response from the White House’s Office of Management and Budget to Sen. JD Vance, R-Ohio and more than 30 Senate Republicans who demanded in January a "full crosscutting" report on security assistance provided to Ukraine.

More here: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/wh...n-100b-in-taxpayer-resources-spent-on-ukraine

Except for creating an excuse for the Pentagon to demand that more and newer weapons be produced and procured, and give the War industry the motivation to start packing more bribe money into congressional reelection campaign coffers, this whole investment has been a monumental failure.

You know that's chump change right?

 

[Rightguide]

You know that's chump change right?

Well, let's see. 100 billion divided by the 19 million people who are left in Ukraine is about $5263.00 per Ukrainian. Joe Biden, the alleged President of the United States, offered $700.00 each to the 166,000 who live on Maui. Of course, he cares more about the people who gave him and his worthless son $5,000,000.00 apiece than he does about his fellow Americans, and because of it, you insist on surgically attaching your lips to his unwiped ass. I get it.

 

[ll74]

Well, let's see. 100 billion divided by the 19 million people who are left in Ukraine is about $5263.00 per Ukrainian. Joe Biden, the alleged President of the United States, offered $700.00 each to the 166,000 who live on Maui. Of course, he cares more about the people who gave him and his worthless son $5,000,000.00 apiece than he does about his fellow Americans, and because of it, you insist on surgically attaching your lips to his unwiped ass. I get it.

The $700 Maui narrative is a complete lie. Those who use it aren't being sincere in their argument.

 

[Rightguide]

The $700 Maui narrative is a complete lie. Those who use it aren't being sincere in their argument.

Leftwing Newsweek said so:
https://www.newsweek.com/hawaii-wildfires-joe-biden-victims-payment-backlash-1819883

As did Fox, NBC News, Daily Mail UK, New York Post, Independent UK, CBS News, as well as your favorite source, the WSWs.Org:
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/08/16/norm-a16.html

 

[ll74]

Leftwing Newsweek said so:
https://www.newsweek.com/hawaii-wildfires-joe-biden-victims-payment-backlash-1819883

As did Fox, NBC News, Daily Mail UK, New York Post, Independent UK, CBS News, as well as your favorite source, the WSWs.Org:
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/08/16/norm-a16.html

A one time payment for gas/groceries is not the full pint of money available to Maui victims.

Whether that payment was sufficient is not the same thing as it being the full amount of money.

https://www.fema.gov/press-release/...d the,approved for individuals and households.

To date, FEMA and the U.S. Small Business Administration have approved more than $65 million in federal assistance for Maui survivors. That total includes $21 million in FEMA assistance approved for individuals and households.

 

[Rightguide]

A one time payment for gas/groceries is not the full pint of money available to Maui victims.

Whether that payment was sufficient is not the same thing as it being the full amount of money.

https://www.fema.gov/press-release/20230909/month-after-devastating-wildfires-maui-ohana-are-rebuilding-together#:~:text=To date, FEMA and the,approved for individuals and households.

How much actually goes to each victim? I know that Joe is trying to get out from under his original offer now that it was shoved up his butt by the people of Maui who may never vote Democrat again.

PS: Did you check your favorite source I linked?

 

[ll74]

How much actually goes to each victim? I know that Joe is trying to get out from under his original offer now that it was shoved up his butt by the people of Maui who may never vote Democrat again.

Not $700.

Admit that narrative is a lie and stop deflecting.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Well, let's see. 100 billion divided by the 19 million people who are left in Ukraine is about $5263.00 per Ukrainian. Joe Biden, the alleged President of the United States, offered $700.00 each to the 166,000 who live on Maui. Of course, he cares more about the people who gave him and his worthless son $5,000,000.00 apiece than he does about his fellow Americans, and because of it, you insist on surgically attaching your lips to his unwiped ass. I get it.

Well 1174 has this under control.

Other than the part where Ukraine is an unrelated issue. We can do two things at once. This is not an either or issue.

 

[Rightguide]

The Incredible Shrinking Offensive: How the Definition of Ukrainian ‘Success’, Once Grandiose, Keeps Getting More and More Modest​

By Paul Serran Sep. 14, 2023 10:00 am


“Meanwhile, months passed, and the Ukrainian Armed Forces were not even able to approach the main line of defense of the Russian Armed Forces, trying to pass off the occupation of several abandoned villages, such as Lobkovoe and Pyatikhatki, as a victory.

In August, the last reserves of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, trained according to NATO standards, were thrown into battle: the 82nd and 46th brigades, and the ultimate goal of the ‘counter-offensive’ was declared to be the capture of Tokmak, which was previously regarded only as the first step in the movement towards Melitopol. But this didn’t work out either.

Military ‘expert’ Alexey Getman stated that the tasks of the ‘counter-offensive’ will be completed if the Ukrainian army can reach the Volnovakha-Tokmak-Dzhankoy railway.

For several weeks, the Ukrainian Armed Forces disputed control over the village of Rabotino, but were unable to get closer to Tokmak. Now the goal of the Ukrainian offensive in 2023 is not even declared to be the capture of this town, located a modest twenty kilometers from the front line, but simply access to the railway anywhere.”

The rest here: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/20...ensive-how-definition-ukrainian-success-once/

As I have previously stated The Ukrainians have failed. They are but all used up as we speak and have little to nothing left to draw from. People on the scene are saying they have less than 8-10 brigades left, less than 50,000 men on the outside and they're looking at Three impregnable layered lines of defensive works preceded by a 10 to 20-kilometer security zone that has not been fully penetrated. All of which is backed by 750,000 Russian troops along an 800-kilometer front. The situation for Zelensky is hopeless.

 

[Sean Renaud]

Honestly I would count this as a victory if only a moral one. I can't say I expected this to last more than two months tops and they are more than likely to make it to the two year mark at least.

 

[ll74]

The Incredible Shrinking Offensive: How the Definition of Ukrainian ‘Success’, Once Grandiose, Keeps Getting More and More Modest​

By Paul Serran Sep. 14, 2023 10:00 am


“Meanwhile, months passed, and the Ukrainian Armed Forces were not even able to approach the main line of defense of the Russian Armed Forces, trying to pass off the occupation of several abandoned villages, such as Lobkovoe and Pyatikhatki, as a victory.

In August, the last reserves of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, trained according to NATO standards, were thrown into battle: the 82nd and 46th brigades, and the ultimate goal of the ‘counter-offensive’ was declared to be the capture of Tokmak, which was previously regarded only as the first step in the movement towards Melitopol. But this didn’t work out either.

Military ‘expert’ Alexey Getman stated that the tasks of the ‘counter-offensive’ will be completed if the Ukrainian army can reach the Volnovakha-Tokmak-Dzhankoy railway.

For several weeks, the Ukrainian Armed Forces disputed control over the village of Rabotino, but were unable to get closer to Tokmak. Now the goal of the Ukrainian offensive in 2023 is not even declared to be the capture of this town, located a modest twenty kilometers from the front line, but simply access to the railway anywhere.”

The rest here: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/20...ensive-how-definition-ukrainian-success-once/

As I have previously stated The Ukrainians have failed. They are but all used up as we speak and have little to nothing left to draw from. People on the scene are saying they have less than 8-10 brigades left, less than 50,000 men on the outside and they're looking at Three impregnable layered lines of defensive works preceded by a 10 to 20-kilometer security zone that has not been fully penetrated. All of which is backed by 750,000 Russian troops along an 800-kilometer front. The situation for Zelensky is hopeless.

You do realize that you're not offering anything new on the topic. You're literally just saying the same thing over and over again

 

[Rightguide]

Honestly I would count this as a victory if only a moral one. I can't say I expected this to last more than two months tops and they are more than likely to make it to the two year mark at least.

Sure, The total destruction of Ukraine, hundreds of thousands of dead. The weakening of the US military stockpile in a hopeless proxy attempt to destroy Russia and Putin. Leaving the field with the Russian army larger and better armed than it has been since the 80s, and Putin sitting on top of a political/military victory and able to dictate terms, fits your definition of a moral victory?

 

[Sean Renaud]

Sure, The total destruction of Ukraine, hundreds of thousands of dead. The weakening of the US military stockpile in a hopeless proxy attempt to destroy Russia and Putin. Leaving the field with the Russian army larger and better armed than it has been since the 80s, and Putin sitting on top of a political/military victory and able to dictate terms, fits your definition of a moral victory?

I'm just curious. How many dead Americans would take for you to kneel?

 

[LLCox]

i read where the line of fighting extends approximately the distance from NY to Miami.

 

[Rightguide]

I'm just curious. How many dead Americans would take for you to kneel?

How many more do you and Joe Biden want to add to the 400,000 that already rest in Arlington National Cemetery? How many more thousands of Ukrainians do you want to see forced into the slaughter pens in front of those Russian defensive lines?