Founders and Framers on the People's Natural Right to Keep and Bear Arms

[cjh]

Sawed offs are short and concealable.

So are hand guns.

They pass Heller muster.

 

[Ishmael]

Undoubtedly I disagree with you as to which level the knobs get twisted; I agree in general with your statement, though.

I don't have a problem with guns. Nor do I have a problem with reasonable regulation of them.

Heller made it clear the Court accepts some regulation of them, too.

Heller focused on personal defense; I don't know that an M-16 passes that muster.

What I don't understand, though, is why a sawed-off shotgun does not.

US v. Miller answered both of your questions and that answer related to the 'militia' clause of the 2nd. It so happens that military shotguns of that age, and perhaps even today, had 18" barrels. I have no doubt that that particular specification was the basis of the legal restriction on shorter barrels.

Yes, Heller stated that some regulation (unspecified) could apply. But with regards to self-defense the question is begged as to what constitutes reasonable self-defense means? What is over-kill in one instance is wholly inadequate in another. The entire issue is situational. When faced with a single attacker who is 100m away and armed with a .38 Special a M-16 would most certainly be over-kill. But when faced with a home invasion by a group of thugs that same rifle might be barely adequate. It must also be remembered, by any careful reading of the Federalist Papers, that the government itself was considered to be a potential enemy of the public. (Eagerly awaiting a post by someone re. the citizenry vs. the Army following this post in short order.)

Ishmael

 

[Sean]

2. Any individual intent on causing mayhem with a firearm, whether obtained legally or not, can only be stopped by another individual, also armed, whose goal is to prevent said mayhem. History has proven the folly of thinking otherwise time and again.
l

Did you hear about the armed robber that tried to rob a betting shop in Britain last year? The (unarmed) punters beat him to death.

 

[Skiddles2014]

Sawed offs are short and concealable.

It's cute because that's exactly how vetteman describes you when he smuggles you around in his pants.

 

[Ferrumitzal]

I don't have a problem with guns. Nor do I have a problem with reasonable regulation of them. Heller made it clear the Court accepts some regulation of them, too. Heller focused on personal defense; I don't know that an M-16 passes that muster. What I don't understand, though, is why a sawed-off shotgun does not.

A few key points that you bring up are worth noting because they illuminate a very real problem in the republic.

Firstly, the Heller case had some very interesting wording in it. Scalia wrote, " Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues."

But he never mentions how they came to that conclusion. Where in the 2nd Amendment does it proscribe carrying a concealed arm? Bearing arms is bearing arms, how you bear them is beside the point.

That such prohibitions have been upheld by other courts is irrelevant because that doesn't make them right anymore than when the USSC upheld the Dred Scot laws. Are we to assume that no colonists every carried a flintlock pistol under their trencher to protect it from the weather or keep it from view? Were derringers invented for no purpose whatsoever?

Secondly, your query regarding the sawed-off shotgun makes an excellent point, even if that's not what you were intending.

The "ban" on sawed-off shotguns is a result of the Miller case before the USSC. Neither Miller nor his attorney were present at the court to present their defense. Miller was dead and his attorney couldn't afford the travel costs, allegedly. So, the court simply sided with the government.

The reasoning was that a short-barreled shotgun wasn't used in any militia activities and therefore wasn't protected under the 2nd Amendment. Unfortunately, no honorable people were around to point out that short-barreled shotguns were very common in the military of the day, being used regularly all throughout WW1, and later WW2, for close-quarters fighting in the trenches and jungles.

Third, an M16 isn't needed for self-defense. That's one of those keystone arguments that people make but never really think about, and it's a great example of how "reasonable regulation" just doesn't work like most people think it would.

The only difference between an M16, AR15 and Ruger Mini-14 is that the M16 has a special switch that allows you to fire multiple rounds with a single pull of the trigger. That's what fully-automatic means.

What does banning that from civilian hands accomplish in the real world? Nothing. The AR15 and Ruger Mini-14 fire the same round as the M16, and the practical speed of firing is no different between full-auto and semi-auto. So, while the regulation might seem "reasonable" it couldn't actually do anything except create a bunch of unnecessary red tape.

When clinton got his assault-weapon ban back in 94, he was proud to "outlaw" AR15s because they had a flash suppressor and bayonet lug. Neither of which make the weapon more dangerous in the real world, and the whole time you could buy an Ruger Mini-14 that did the exact same thing as the AR15 but didn't look as evil doing it.

Here's a great video of Jerry Miculek shooting an AR15 with a timer. The video was meant to show just how dumb politicians are when they start spurting out things they don't know about, but it's also a great example of how fast you can shoot a semi-auto rifle. Is an M16 appreciably faster in the real world? No.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REdjjLBaiOs

Did banning/regulating/licensing M16s cause a marked drop in crime? Impossible to prove. Did the "reasonable regulation" make the nation safer? Impossible to prove. If anything, forcing the bad guy to slow down only means his ammunition is going to last longer and he's going to have more time to take aim.

So why is the law still on the books? Why is buying a gun illegal until you pay a $200 tax to the government?

A short-barreled shotgun is anything less than 18", according to the law. The 18" length is entirely arbitrary. 18" is fine; 17.75" makes you a felon. Is that "reasonable"? Long barrels also make the weapon more accurate and dangerous at a distance. That's why hunters buy shotguns with 20" barrels.

Someone once wrote that "god is in the details."

 

[Mello_SixtyNine]

Video comparing violent crimes between U.S. & England

I don't know how to embed the video so here's the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ooa98FHuaU0

 

[magicalmoments]

I have the good fortune to live in a country ranked 5th in the world (worldaudit.org) when it comes to democratic freedoms, as opposed to the USA's 13th ranking and I am denied a constitutional right to bear arms. Strangely I don't feel deprived by this denial.
The average policeman on patrol does not carry a firearm, the homicide rate is one of the lowest in the world, drive by shootings are basically unheard of, we've never had a nutcase wander into a school, or up a clock tower, or a Post Office and take out a dozen innocent victims.
I don't understand why there is this debate about the right to have access to guns. It's just stupid.

 

[Ferrumitzal]

I don't know how to embed the video so here's the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ooa98FHuaU0

Good show, M. I've been following that guy for awhile and am consistently impressed with his use of the numbers. Straight-forward and easy to follow.

The truly funny part is that if you break down the crime stats and compare them to polling data, you get a real eye-opener.

 

[AllyRose]

Did you hear about the armed robber that tried to rob a betting shop in Britain last year? The (unarmed) punters beat him to death.

They did have their arms... just not guns.

 

[Byron In Exile]

I surely hope so given that what you just gave me doubles as the lining of a bird-cage.

It very well can be that you're smarter than me....but we won't know it from your current foaming at the mouth.

The foam is in your brain, my friend.

But I do hope you used newspaper. Printing out stuff to line a bird cage is an awful waste of paper.

Perhaps I ought to apologize. You do think about stuff... it's just that, to me, this "debate" is the oldest and most shopworn of all. And when I see arguments being floated that I scotched ten years ago, and roundly, I tend to shut down.

For how many decades must I sing the same song? Prove the same proofs? So many topics have room for dissention that I find it hard to believe that anyone with any sense would be laboring this one. It's a lost cause for gun control advocates.

The United States is an armed society. The rest of the world considers it barbaric. Two facts, and that's how it is. Can we now move on to something less static?

 

[Byron In Exile]

Oh, come on. Surely you admit Byron's "Like a printing press?" was the best post in this thread.

Sean is like trapping a fish in a goldfish bowl.

 

[Byron In Exile]

It was good, to be sure.

But the fact that he can treat the Constitution like a dollar-menu detracts from said post.

Put another way, broken clock, right twice a day, blah blah.

Oh, trust me, I never do.

The reason nobody else posted that is that they don't see the US Constitution in totality.

 

[Byron In Exile]

And this thread went, as I expected, the way all these threads go
And whist, nobody knows...

I can't wait for the XVII reruns after the next school shooting.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

I have the good fortune to live in a country ranked 5th in the world (worldaudit.org) when it comes to democratic freedoms, as opposed to the USA's 13th ranking and I am denied a constitutional right to bear arms. Strangely I don't feel deprived by this denial.
The average policeman on patrol does not carry a firearm, the homicide rate is one of the lowest in the world, drive by shootings are basically unheard of, we've never had a nutcase wander into a school, or up a clock tower, or a Post Office and take out a dozen innocent victims.
I don't understand why there is this debate about the right to have access to guns. It's just stupid.

Are you connected to any other country?

Do drugs and criminals come and go?

Are you a more or less homogenous society with a shared culture, or a large polyglot society with several clashing cultures?

Do you measure law-enforcement response time in minutes, hours, or half days?

Do you have any history of individualism on the frontier, or did the British Army come in and make very short work of the natives?

This is just a sampling of what makes the comparison a simple one, but a painful one to bear.

 

[Byron In Exile]

Are you connected to any other country?

Do drugs and criminals come and go?

Are you a more or less homogenous society with a shared culture, or a large polyglot society with several clashing cultures?

Do you measure law-enforcement response time in minutes, hours, or half days?

Do you have any history of individualism on the frontier, or did the British Army come in and make very short work of the natives?

This is just a sampling of what makes the comparison a simple one, but a painful one to bear.

An important one:

Is your country's GDP more than $30 billion, when the US is $16,000 billion?

Else sit down.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

An important one:

Is your country's GDP more than $30 billion, when the US is $16,000 billion?

Else sit down.

*chuckle*

300+ million to, what, a handful, easily policed?

 

[Byron In Exile]

*chuckle*

300+ million to, what, a handful, easily policed?

The fact is: the horses have left the barn.

You can close the doors a thousand times, but it won't bring the horses back.

Non-USA types just don't get that. They think somehow the genie can be put back in the bottle. It just can't. It's too late for that. The USA is an armed society, regardless of whatever nuisance gun-control laws get passed.

Purchasing guns? The last time I bought a gun was 15 years ago. It'll still put a hole in you the size of a dinner plate.

Accessibility? I hope I know where my guns are.

 

[Byron In Exile]

All "gun control" will ever accomplish is to make sure that the most belligerent people have guns.

The compliant will be disarmed.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

The fact is: the horses have left the barn.

You can close the doors a thousand times, but it won't bring the horses back.

Non-USA types just don't get that. They think somehow the genie can be put back in the bottle. It just can't. It's too late for that. The USA is an armed society, regardless of whatever nuisance gun-control laws get passed.

Purchasing guns? The last time I bought a gun was 15 years ago. It'll still put a hole in you the size of a dinner plate.

Accessibility? I hope I know where my guns are.

For a lot of them, the problem is that the US military has kept them safe for long enough to forget the last time someone rolled over them.



They were able to spend that money on bribing the criminals not to steal with the largess of the loot in their treasuries...

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

All "gun control" will ever accomplish is to make sure that the most belligerent people have guns.

The compliant will be disarmed.

Hell, in the US, everyone of that mindset has long ago voluntarily disarmed.

 

[Byron In Exile]

Hell, in the US, everyone of that mindset has long ago voluntarily disarmed.

But then, people who never owned a gun are now thinking, "Maybe I should have one..."

Before it's too late?

You would be surprised how many people here who never would have owned a gun are now into it.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

But then, people who never owned a gun are now thinking, "Maybe I should have one..."

Before it's too late?

You would be surprised how many people here who never would have owned a gun are now into it.

No i would not, I have watched the economics of it in play. Do you know how almost impossibly hard it is to get a brick of .22 rounds?

How the hell am I supposed to keep the tree rats honest and dissuade the feral dog packs from trying to eat my little weenies?



At any rate, I stocked up on the ABCs beginning with AK and AR.

 

[Liar]

I don't know how to embed the video so here's the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ooa98FHuaU0

Not sure you can embed video here. So link away.

Dissapointed with the vid, though. Guy says the media picks and chooses crime stats. And then he picks and chooses his own crime stats and leaves the interresting questions unadressed.

He correctly points out that violent crime as well as murder rates has gone down a lot since the early 90's. Ok ... why is that? What did the country do right between then, and now?

Also, has inner city violence gone down more, less, or as much during that time?

 

[Byron In Exile]

I don't know how to embed the video so here's the link:

That's the voice of someone I will never trust.

With anything.

 

[Byron In Exile]

Dissapointed with the vid, though.

You have more fortitude.

I hit the eject switch.