Gender Bending

[unfoundiamond]

Wow.

DB, I don't see how you can give advice to Hom and not see you should be taking your own advice and apply it to descrimination in general?

 

[Netzach]

DB, I don't see how you can give advice to Hom and not see you should be taking your own advice and apply it to descrimination in general?

See, the thing that is missing again is the difference between individual prejudice and systematic, socialized and institutionalized prejudice.

She said it better. This is why I brought up my GF, not because I'm sooo cool for dating her but because without her I do not get followed around stores except to be helped. Her life and mine ARE different, no matter how much shit I get or don't for other reasons.

Because your crossdressing would get you fired from a job, yes, but your name will keep you from even getting in for the interview. (research hiring practices and resumes with names thought to be a particular race or not)

This is a question of seeing a larger picture and yourself in a larger picture. Everyone takes shit from everyone every day, I can't disagree there. WHY and WHERE people's prejudice comes from is another matter though, and there's a difference between the irrational hatred of people who attack people and the semi-rational hatred of people who are historically attacked. I don't think it's their job to do the rising above and extending of hands all the time. I trust straight people I *can* trust, it takes some vetting. That's not discriminatory and bad, it's self-preservation. I would like my gender-questioning husband to survive to 50 without being beaten to death by assholes, so I have to vet.

 

[DeservingBitch]

DOES anyone get me saying I got shit from blacks and whites equally when I identified as transgendered... in highschool the black girls where the meanest to me for identifying as transgendered...

I certainly do get what you're saying. And seeing some of what my trans friends go through, I think that trans people are one of the social groups that has it the worst in the current socio-political context.

One of my trans friend has developed a real and debilitating phobia of public spaces because of being repeatedly harrassed and attacked for using the 'wrong' washroom. She won't go out unless she knows for a fact that she will be able to use a private washroom or be in a space that is trans-friendly.

People feel OK to say shit to trans people that they would never say out loud in public to other 'marginalized' groups.

And lets no even go into the almost impossibility to receive adequate health care when you're trans.

But one's oppression along one identity axe doesn't necessarily negate privilege from another identity axe. I'm queer and woman, and I get shit because of it. But I'm also middle-class, over-educated, and white and get tons of privilege from it. That being said, I'm pretty damn certain that in the current context, I as a white middle-class queer but 'het' passing woman have it much more easy than most if not all trans people.

 

[DeservingBitch]

DB, I don't see how you can give advice to Hom and not see you should be taking your own advice and apply it to descrimination in general?

Where do you think I take the articles I've listed or the advices I've written from? The answer is: from my own work at educating myself about my own privilege, and from my own experience at being the white/middle-class/cis-woman privileged one in marginalized groups I've been working with. And significantly, from having been called on my own shit and privilege by other people.

ETA: But if what you meant is that I should trust every white het boy that comes my way because 'it's not fair' for me to assume the worst, I call bullshit on that. No, it's probably not fair, on an individual basis, for me to de facto not trust white het boys. But as Netzach said, it's a question of survival. Additionally, trust in my book is not something that is owed to anyone -- trust is something that is earned. Prove to me that you're a decent human being -- in behavior more than just words -- and I'll trust you to have my back, even if you're a het white boy. Until then, I reserve the right to believe, with a history of violence behind me to back me up, that you may be an asshole whose need to prove its masculinity and heterosexuality could mean that I'll end up raped/dead.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Everyone thinks they alone have a strangle-hold on truth.

 

[unfoundiamond]

Yes...

We agree for the most part DB,

I just feel you are putting a white/male/middle class mask on the face of hatred, and I see hatred coming from many faces...

And you where talking about why somehow its more okay for marginalized groups to descriminate against people because they have been victimized though history,

When my face is in the dirt, and I am being threatened to be raped by a Black Male Police officer, I don't care that his people where enslaved... or that I am a gay white girl so I deserve it more since I get all these priviledges...

Do you understand?

I have to tell you, I don't dislike you for the fact we share diffrent opinions, I have enjoyed the entire conversation for the intensity and I respect your opinions...

And I was trying to think of a way to say that trans people get treated the worst... and you did it so well, I agree tho, even the other minorities pick on us... and yes say things they wouldn't say to anyone else... I am very very aware of this from expirience, and yet you put it into words so much better... lol

 

[unfoundiamond]

I was just stating the obvious...

Net,
I just noticed we all mentioned our black (mines a ex) girlfriends... I think its funny how people want to prove credible by throwing the "I accept black folks" flag,
I did it too, I am not talking about you, I am including myself...

But, I just dont believe, reguardless of why a person is prejudice, that anyone gets to be prejudice and its okay,

I know all people can hate and be hated... and its always wrong, maybe understandable, but should be corrected, not allowed because of any copout.

Deserving and Net~ BTW, I ment to adress this earlyer,

I don't trust anyone very much because of my expiriences, but I don't trust white gaybashers anymore than black ones ect, and I keep anything that would put me in danger hidden, not because I am ashamed, but for my safety... I Distrust everyone equally untill they give me a reason not to... Don't think I am saying to trust white het boys...

trust no one! -just don't tell me only white het men are gaybashers or rapists, Ill give you plenty of examples of exceptions... as with anything there's ALWAYs exceptions...

 

[DeservingBitch]

We agree for the most part DB,

I just feel you are putting a white/male/middle class mask on the face of hatred, and I see hatred coming from many faces...

And you where talking about why somehow its more okay for marginalized groups to descriminate against people because they have been victimized though history,

When my face is in the dirt, and I am being threatened to be raped by a Black Male Police officer, I don't care that his people where enslaved... or that I am a gay white girl so I deserve it more since I get all these priviledges...

Do you understand?

I have to tell you, I don't dislike you for the fact we share diffrent opinions, I have enjoyed the entire conversation for the intensity and I respect your opinions...

And I was trying to think of a way to say that trans people get treated the worst... and you did it so well, I agree tho, even the other minorities pick on us... and yes say things they wouldn't say to anyone else... I am very very aware of this from expirience, and yet you put it into words so much better... lol

I don't want to derail the thread again, but I'll just say this. The 'beauty' of the fucked up world we live in and one of the main reason it works so well at oppressing and exploiting almost everyone is that gender/sexuality/race/class/etc. are being played together in complex ways that work to divide the vast majority of us who get screwed up by the system so that the very few who benefit from it can keep sitting on their underserved privilege.

It works so well that instead of trying to work together to change what is oppressing us, we end up wasting out time in 'who's the most oppressed' competitions.

 

[unfoundiamond]

okay

Okay and you took that way wrong if you think I was trying to do that, I felt like you where denying my persecution with the many heavyly biased opinions you shared.

I am on this gender bending board because I AM A CROSSDRESSER, Spectrum Prom 2000 Prom King, ahem, and you're opressing me with your language...

I should be able to share my expirience in this GENDER BENDING forum without a person trying to deny my abuse because it didn't come from white middle class males only... which makes it somehow justified because the people who gaybashed and comitted hate crimes against me where persecuted somewhere in history...

(everyone was persecuted sometime in history)
That's a copout, no one has more justification to hate...
and the things you said are simply supporting hate and giving someone else a reason to rationalize being vindictive in nature! Just because someone was abused doesn't make it okay to carry on the behavior...

And you are trying to say I am trying to compete for most opressed... its not a contest, you are dealing with real peoples lives and expiriences here, its about learning not competition.

If you think we are competeing you have lost sight of the goal here. Gaining perspective.

We are equals sharing views... that's how I see it...

 

[snowy ciara]

Might I, as the OP (Original Posted to this thread), ask respectfully that we take the discussion about race, a discussion that can often become volatile, to some other more appropriate thread or perhaps someone wanting to discuss race relation issues could start a new tread about the subject. I can see a connection between discrimination based on perception of gender expression and discrimination based on perception of race presentation - I suspect they are both based on fear, and therefor hatred, of the "other".

In this thread I would rather discuss being feared and hated for being, oh, lets say - a fem-expressing-gay, rather then being feared and hated for being, oh, lets say - a white-male.

Thank you. Shank


Now, back to the important question of how to get the grocery clerk to stop trying to find my non-existent cleavage when I crossdress when going shopping...

Yes Oh Great and Sexy ThreadMaster! Sorry, bad joke from one of the more clueless fucks on another Lit forum....

My cleavage is pretty much non-existent too, and yes, I have Breastage on my Christmas list again this year, but I've had it there every years since I was 14. I don't know that there is a polite way to get the clerk to stop looking for my cleavage. However, I once rudely informed a waiter at a restaurant "They don't talk, and they sure as hell don't tip so talk to the face, not the boobs." He snapped back with something pretty rude. He doesn't work there anymore, and I get GREAT service there now. And no-one tries to talk to my cleavage.

 

[unfoundiamond]

Shank

I am so sorry. Please understand this does pertain to my expiriences with gender bending.

 

[unfoundiamond]

okay

Why was it so much more uncomfortable to wear a couple ace bandages than a freaking corset?

You'd think a corset would be worse, but I think maybe its because its around your lungs and ribcage more... ace bandages are pretty uncomfortable,

When I wore my $500 tuxedo to Gay Prom (I did the full tails, white shirt, and the shoes with the white on the toes and heels, black chicago style fedora hat with red feather)

With a drag queen on one arm and my girlfriend on the other, I had to have them REALLY flat.

Both for the tux to look right because it was the old style formal with vest and all, and since there was boobs on either side, to be asthetic-ly (spelling?) pleasing I had to be flat...

I didn't last all night with them bound flat, and I don't see how anyone can stand to have their breasts bound if they are DD like I was then... It was unbearable...

How's that Shankara...

Aren't you pleased!!
*wink* *smile*

 

[DeservingBitch]

Okay and you took that way wrong if you think I was trying to do that, I felt like you where denying my persecution with the many heavyly biased opinions you shared.

I'm not sure how I denied yours or other trans people persecution by suggesting that there's a lot of privilege and oppressions around, and that the small group who tend to benefit from it (those sitting at the top of the societal pyramid if you will) are mostly white westerners het middle-class cis able bodied male. Which -- just to be clear here -- is NOT the same as saying that only white westerners het middle-class cis able bodied male are oppressors NOR that all and every white westerners het middle-class cis able bodied male are bad guys. As they say, some of my best friends are white westerners het middle-class cis able bodied males

And my previous comment was trying to express just that: the system works in a way that most everybody get screwed up, some more than others, but we all tend to put the blame somewhere else than on those who actually benefit from this exploitation and oppression. And those who benefit and whose interests are being served by transphobia for instance are not the black women who harrassed/attacked you. Does it make it OK for those black women to be transphobic? Of course not. Is it less wrong or less oppressive for you because they are black women? Of course not.

ETA: this goes back to an earlier discussion in the thread about oppressor/oppressed not being exclusive categories. Aside from a very few people in this world, most of us will at some point be in the position of the oppressed, and at others in the position of the oppressor.

I am on this gender bending board because I AM A CROSSDRESSER, Spectrum Prom 2000 Prom King, ahem, and you're opressing me with your language...

Again, I'm trying hard to understand how I did that. I've re-read what I wrote trying to figure out what I said that was denying how you are being oppressed as trans, and I have to humbly say that I don't see it. I know it's not your job to educate me, but I think I've reached the limit where I can figure it out on my own.

I should be able to share my expirience in this GENDER BENDING forum without a person trying to deny my abuse because it didn't come from white middle class males only... which makes it somehow justified because the people who gaybashed and comitted hate crimes against me where persecuted somewhere in history...

I have not once suggested something along those lines. I have never said that only white middle class males can be oppressive. Fuck no. And I would never suggest that because some people have historically been oppressed that it makes it OK for them to oppress others.

and the things you said are simply supporting hate and giving someone else a reason to rationalize being vindictive in nature! Just because someone was abused doesn't make it okay to carry on the behavior... .

Again, I have honestly no idea how you get that from what I wrote. How I am supporting hate and justifying abuse? Seriously -- there must be something getting lost in the translation if this is how what I wrote is being received. And it does concerned me quite a bit to be honest -- fuck, my entire work and politics is about making social justice happen. If what I wrote here is being received as justifying and legitimizing hatred and abuse, there's something very wrong about what I'm doing or how I'm expressing myself and I'd very much want to know what it is.

And you are trying to say I am trying to compete for most opressed... its not a contest, you are dealing with real peoples lives and expiriences here, its about learning not competition.

I didn't mean that it's what *you* are doing. I meant it in a general, broader way. And that comment was coming out of my experience of activism for social justice with different marginalized groups -- I've seen this 'I'm more oppressed than you' thing happen over and over again (and been guilty of it as well).

 

[DeservingBitch]

"They don't talk, and they sure as hell don't tip so talk to the face, not the boobs."

Can I please re-appropriate that line? Brilliant. Just brilliant!

 

[snowy ciara]

Go right ahead! You know, I catch that crap with my a cups, so I don't see how bigger than a cup ladies make through their teens without being charged with manslaughter.

 

[unfoundiamond]

True

I think this speaks to part of why I wanted to gender bend,

I didn't want to be objectified, I wasn't ready**, I felt so much more comfortable identifying with males, being the fucker not the fuckie...

I also think it was(is) defensive, to be that flamboyantly transgendered, and not be sorry, took me right out of the target pool of girls... I was viewed as the friend, not a piece of ass... which since I don't want to attract a man (especially one who just wants to fuck me) I enjoyed taking myself out of the running if you will...

I identify with a lot of the male adjectives tho... being aggressive, extroverted, educated, strong willed, protective... but I am also very agile, and nurturing, domestic but cultured... I can go so easyly between the two lists... I am just one of these people...

I resent that gender roles exist, except when a guy opens a door or pays a check, so I just let it go... I break the rules and follow them when it is to my advantage...

Its called working the system... going to lesbian bars on the weekends and presenting het at work is fine with me... If I get to kiss who I want who cares what they have to tell themselves...

I will have my cake and eat it too!

**when I say I wasn't ready I am talking about my personal story, since now, not only do I present ULTRA femme (I still crossdress somedays to feel normal) but I use all my femininity to my advantage to further work the system, and in being aggressive and foward and smart, I use the fact that I am desirable to my advantage, I don't prevent myself from it, I tended to sabotage myself because I was scared... this isn't everyone... just me... but I am the same, still never wear a skirt... still wear tanktops... chain... natural makeup... just longer hair... still trousers, just womens... slight diffrences, like camoflage, not costume... and I recomend if people hurt you or rape you, you do whatever you have to, to save your life... if that means changing some small things in my life to make sure nothing bad will happen to me ever agin, then I will. Sadly, sometimes you have to.

 

[DeservingBitch]

Bringing the discussion back to something a little more closely related to Shanks original question for this thread, here's something that I just read on a blog and thought I would share here:

From the Sugarbutch Chronicles (where the author discuss what 'gender' would look like if we were to do without the man/woman, masculine/feminine distinctions):

I wonder what some sort of Gender Code would look like, something like the late-90s Geek Code (or one of its many spinoffs). Categories would include bodily adornment with makeup and nail polish, body modification with tattoos and piercings, footwear choice, hair - both hair length and body hair, physical features like breasts (including options for falsies) and cocks (ditto), hormones perhaps (as if that is easy to measure), accessories, preferred pronouns ... what else? What other things are included in one's gender?

Thoughts?

 

[AflyinYourweb]

Labels

As long as we try to label people, we shall fail to recognize them as the individuals that they actually are.

We, as a society, have a bad habit of trying to label people. It is a sort of lazy mental short-hand to file someone in a convienent catch-all folder. "Oh, he's a [liberal or conservative]" is a quick, but highly inaccurate, attempt to categorize a political figure.

Classic societal gender roles are nothing more than arbitrary assignments of traits by society, usually for the economic, political and social benefit of the society, not necessarily to the advantage of the individuals who make up that society.

I think the best opinion I think I've heard on this subject was:

"I am what I am, and that's all I am." - Popeye, the sailor-man.

 

[DeservingBitch]

I think there's a significant difference between compulsory, socially-enforced gender/sexual roles and expressions, and gender/sexual self-identification. The former is oppressive, not the later.

My previous post was concerned with gender/sexual self-identification, not with socially imposed categories.

 

[unfoundiamond]

I had a thought, on gender bending...

I was speaking with someone tonight about my stepfather who was a crossdresser,

I thought that maybe , had I never have seen him "dressed" maybe I wouldn't be accepting of people today,

I then all the sudden felt bad. I feel I am not safe to dress how I'd like from the years of harasment and "special treatment" I had suffered. I am sick of being made a example of)

Am I preventing someone from seeing me like I am and making them see that Cd or GB people, are really just great people who feel diffrently about expressing themself, like my stepfather showed me?

If I had never caught him, would I have repressed my own feelings and become like the rest of the flock?

Am I crazy for thinking this?

Shank... am I not suposed to ask a gender bending question on here... I am still new... just jet me know... thanx...

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Pish Posh

Ninety-nine percent of the people on this planet want special attention for who or what they are. And that means labels for whatever your special talent or disability happens to be.

I had this conversation with a psychologist the other day. "I dont label people," he says. "Youre full of shit," said I.

 

[Netzach]

Pish Posh

Ninety-nine percent of the people on this planet want special attention for who or what they are. And that means labels for whatever your special talent or disability happens to be.

I had this conversation with a psychologist the other day. "I dont label people," he says. "Youre full of shit," said I.

Wow, you P0wned.

unfound, I dunno. I think you can make yourself really crazy if you get to the point where you feel like you need to be other people's public service announcement in how you present - I know that the peer pressure to go butch/andro in college and a lot of the reactionary impulse I have kept me from short hair and phat pants till after school was over just because I did not want to be part of some scene or assumed to be. I like being at a point in my life where I can get dressed without the political ramifications being the first thing in mind, and just opt for the sweats I usually opt for. I think working the "seriously ill" look for a couple of years really took a lot of the power out of presentation again for me.

 

[Etoile]

I now have TWO examples of people assuming I'm straight even in an all-gay environment. Is it STILL the hair?!

The first time was when I was an interpreter on a gay cruise in 2005. It was an AMAZING experience, but at one point the coordinator asked if I was lesbian, because he'd been hearing complaints from people who said I was straight. (I had very long hair at this time.) I said "yes, I am!" and he said "oh good, I thought so, but I just wanted to confirm." I don't blame the coordinator for this, I blame the assholes who were complaining about having a straight person on board WITHOUT CHECKING WITH ME THEMSELVES.

The second time was a couple of nights ago. I was chatting in the dining hall with someone who was also in the campus gay society before it shut down this semester. We'd been to meetings together, we're not friends, but we sort of know each other. I made a passing reference to my wife, and she said "wait, are you gay?" I said "huh? did you just say what I thought you said?" And she said "are you gay?" I said yes...and she said "I always thought you were straight! I didn't know you were gay, that's so cool!" She's pretty femme herself, her girlfriend is very butch, so I guess for her it's "obvious" that she's gay because she hangs out with a butch person. But because my wife - who is also femme - doesn't come to school with me, I'm automatically straight? How on earth can she assume that?!

If GAY people still think I'm straight, then the fact that heterosexual people think I'm straight should be a no-brainer. It's default, it's what people expect, even if they think about my sexuality, they are thinking of me as straight and not considering any other options.

I hate fucking femme invisibility.

[/rant]

 

[Homburg]

I hate fucking femme invisibility.

[/rant]

My head hurts. We have some people ranting about the consequences of being identifiable, and now about not being identifiable.

We need IFF Transponders for sexuality.

 

[Netzach]

I now have TWO examples of people assuming I'm straight even in an all-gay environment. Is it STILL the hair?!

The first time was when I was an interpreter on a gay cruise in 2005. It was an AMAZING experience, but at one point the coordinator asked if I was lesbian, because he'd been hearing complaints from people who said I was straight. (I had very long hair at this time.) I said "yes, I am!" and he said "oh good, I thought so, but I just wanted to confirm." I don't blame the coordinator for this, I blame the assholes who were complaining about having a straight person on board WITHOUT CHECKING WITH ME THEMSELVES.

The second time was a couple of nights ago. I was chatting in the dining hall with someone who was also in the campus gay society before it shut down this semester. We'd been to meetings together, we're not friends, but we sort of know each other. I made a passing reference to my wife, and she said "wait, are you gay?" I said "huh? did you just say what I thought you said?" And she said "are you gay?" I said yes...and she said "I always thought you were straight! I didn't know you were gay, that's so cool!" She's pretty femme herself, her girlfriend is very butch, so I guess for her it's "obvious" that she's gay because she hangs out with a butch person. But because my wife - who is also femme - doesn't come to school with me, I'm automatically straight? How on earth can she assume that?!

If GAY people still think I'm straight, then the fact that heterosexual people think I'm straight should be a no-brainer. It's default, it's what people expect, even if they think about my sexuality, they are thinking of me as straight and not considering any other options.

I hate fucking femme invisibility.

[/rant]

Yes it's the hair. And lack of imagination, and the pervasiveness of the incultration which says person = hetero absent some really flamingly obvious signifier.

I can't imagine still thinking you are after sitting down with your for an hour, but then again I do know you from Lit LOL.