Generational differences in perspective

[lovecraft68]

I'll just hasten to add, since you posted this as a takeoff on a post of mine, that "toxic masculinity" is not something I was bringing up. I think it's a loaded term with modern connotations I'm not comfortable commenting on.

Em asked whether living in a prior era affected our views of the things she listed. I think jokes and the way we take them have changed, and that the era of universal mockery I grew up in also coincided with an era of accountability for the things you said: the accountability was after school at the senior center.

I am biased, but I view that humor culture as something that built resiliency (in me, anyway: I was a frequent target of jokes) and that accountability culture as something that regulated unduly offensive speech. My points go no further than that. I'm not going to use the term "toxic masculinity" to describe that culture because I think it's misleading: girls mocked, teased, and fought just as often as boys.

You can use it on your own. It's no part of my vocabulary.

I brought up that term in the sense of I don't buy into it. Some guys can act like assholes and I can leave it at that. Not everything needs to be put in a box with a name on it. But things like letting kids fight is now seen as that by many.

I agree with everything you say. Joking is a way of coping and dealing with things, ball busting and being able to take ball busting builds some character and the thing is when you take all that away? You have kids growing up in this bubble and one harsh word has them in tears or losing their mind. They face no adversity therefore can't handle it when it comes. The parents who buy into this "everything is bad and you need to stay away from it" are doing these kids no favor.

My daughter told me a couple years ago a girl that worked with her handed her a safety pin. My daughter asked what it was for, and the girl said "It represents a safe place from harsh words." My daughter handed it back to her and said, "Yeah well, you keep it because I'm the reason people like you need these.". But she meant it as a joke(mostly because she's a lot like me and says whatever pops into her head) and the girl never talked to her again.

 

[GlennJenko]

I think this was geographic, not necessarily generational. Where I grew up, "the R word" was almost as offensive as the N word and only the real bullies used it. This was forty years ago.

Then I moved to a different part of the country, where apparently nobody has gotten the memo about saying things are "retarded." I still hear it all the time here.

Huh. Thanks for the insight.

But now you mention it, I'm British but have spent much of the last year in the US and I think I have heard it used here a lot more frequently than it would be back home. Though I totally get from what you're saying (and I'm taking the massive assumption you were talking about the US) that even within the country those differences are present.

 

[Voboy]

Huh. Thanks for the insight.

But now you mention it, I'm British but have spent much of the last year in the US and I think I have heard it used here a lot more frequently than it would be back home. Though I totally get from what you're saying (and I'm taking the massive assumption you were talking about the US) that even within the country those differences are present.

Yes. I grew up on the West Coast and now live in the Northeast.

I like it better up here (mostly because the people are assholes, and I prefer that over saccharine happiness), but it's true that they seem to have missed a number of changes in the "disability sensitivity language" category.

 

[AlexBailey]

That's the thing, what people refer to now as "Toxic Masculinity" when it comes to boys will be boys had its place. You said it well, it maintained order. It also was what would always stop the bully, when they ran into someone who would hit him back, it usually made him less eager to keep acting that way.
……

That kind of story is not what I think of as “toxic masculinity.”

I think of “toxic” as the guys who take pride in how many women they slept with - the ones who will say anything to get in someone’s pants then ‘fuck-em-and-chuck-em’.

I think of the dads who disown their queer kids.

I think of the dads who are ashamed of their sons who aren’t into competitive sports.

I think of the guys who feel like they wasted their money if a date won’t put out.

I think of the guys who won’t give a woman the time of day if they don’t think she’s attractive.

I think of the husbands who lose attraction to their wives when their bodies change after childbirth.

I think of the guys who judge other men by the how attractive their girlfriends are.



My ex wife was a model when we met. Guys who previously wouldn’t speak to me wanted to be my friend when we were together. Some of them would start a conversation with me and my wife then try stand between us once they got her attention.

That is toxic. Your story was more about establishing boundaries and pecking order.

 

[lovecraft68]

That kind of story is not what I think of as “toxic masculinity.”

I think of “toxic” as the guys who take pride in how many women they slept with - the ones who will say anything to get in someone’s pants then ‘fuck-em-and-chuck-em’.

I think of the dads who disown their queer kids.

I think of the dads who are ashamed of their sons who aren’t into competitive sports.

I think of the guys who feel like they wasted their money if a date won’t put out.

I think of the guys who won’t give a woman the time of day if they don’t think she’s attractive.

I think of the husbands who lose attraction to their wives when their bodies change after childbirth.

I think of the guys who judge other men by the how attractive their girlfriends are.



My ex wife was a model when we met. Guys who previously wouldn’t speak to me wanted to be my friend when we were together. Some of them would start a conversation with me then try stand between us once they got her attention.

That is toxic. Your story was more about establishing boundaries and pecking order.

I loathe every behavior you just described-but want to add plenty of 'men' disown their kids regardless of sexuality. My daughter is divorced two years now, and he's seen his kids twice and not paid any child support.

I guess what you're describing as toxic masculinity is what I refer to as how "real men" act. I'll toss in any man who hits his wife/girlfriend, any man who makes cracks they'll screw an igly woman because they're desperate and try harder. The men who are trash, but tell their girl she'd lucky someone wants her. The guy who always has to act like he has the biggest dick in the room.

I could go on and on, but I'll just get myself pissed off.

What I know is that for many reasons, all relating to my childhood and teen years that I hate the type with a venom the LW crowd can't match. The kind of man who says things like "You let your wife drive?" An actual man doesn't "Let" his wife do anything, she's a partner not a fucking slaves. My wife drives when we're together because I scare the shit out of her because I drive like I'm in the fast and furious. When I say anything pro woman I'm a simp and a cuck and wimp and etc...

But what I know is any time one of them really started up with me and it looks like its going to go next level? I'm not the one that backs down, and on the occasions its gotten to that? Then they have to explain to the rest of their pack how they got their ass handed to them by a simp.

Because as my story, and Voboy were saying, there is a time and place to put shit in its place.

 

[AlexBailey]

Because as my story, and Voboy were saying, there is a time and place to put shit in its place.

Right. What I’m saying is that I don’t, and a don’t think many other people would call the trait you described in your story as “toxic masculinity.”

Fighting back when confronted isn’t toxic. “Wokeism” isn’t about that.


There was a guy in my high school who called me a pussy and punched me in the arm when he passed me in the locker room a few times. The third time I turned and hit him hard in the bone of his shoulder. Problem solved. He was being toxic until I pushed back. Still, there were other’s who he messed with for a while. I got to know his extended family years later. I’m friends with him now. Turns out that his father was one of those dick-head masculine guys and he was always trying to live up to his dad’s expectations. He raised his kids differently, so that generational crap took a few decades to work its way out of their family.

 

[Bramblethorn]

There was a time when taking it out after school was a regular thing to do. In my experience in California it was sometime in the late 80’s when conflict between social groups became lethal. Parties that would previously break out in fistfights started breaking out in gunfire or stabbings.

A time and a place.

Juvenile gang violence has been a thing for a long time. "West Side Story" came out in 1957 and Harlan Ellison's "Memos from Purgatory" in 1961, both based on mid-50s NYC youth gangs. Granted those kids weren't in school, but I doubt the schools in those districts were firewalled from that kind of violence.

 

[AlexBailey]

A time and a place.

Juvenile gang violence has been a thing for a long time. "West Side Story" came out in 1957 and Harlan Ellison's "Memos from Purgatory" in 1961, both based on mid-50s NYC youth gangs. Granted those kids weren't in school, but I doubt the schools in those districts were firewalled from that kind of violence.

True, though that was typically a street gang thing. In the later ‘80s it made it to the suburbs.

BTW, the tomboy/trans character “Anybodys” from West Side Story was a talking point for me and my mom when I was in Junior High. She laid off of me a bit and was a little more accepting after that conversation.

Anybodys was the first character I really related to in something my parents were into, but even then they blew it off as being more accepting and understanding for a girl to want to cross gender boundaries.

 

[SimonDoom]

The use of the term "toxic masculinity" is interesting, because it calls to my mind a trend I've noticed over the years that I think younger people may not be aware of because they never have known anything different. It's the tendency to want to label and taxonomize everything, to diagnose everything, to lump things together. And I think with that has come a tendency to take labels too seriously, to make them too overinclusive. I see creeping essentialism all over the place, including here: a tendency to insist that X is always Y, and it must be Y, and there's no alternative to thinking it must be Y. I see that with judgments people make about kinks they don't like. I believe, on the other hand, that people are complex, that they have multiple and often conflicting sides to them, and that's perfectly OK. I think reality lies in the particular.

There's a lot of terrible behavior out there: misogyny, racism, homophobia, you name it. But there's also, I think, a tendency to overdiagnose things. It's why the hair stands up on the back of my neck sometimes at the use of terms like "toxic masculinity" or "microaggressions," because there is a habit of sweeping within the scope of those labels behavior that has no business being lumped with truly awful behavior. Toxic masculinity is bad. But masculinity, per se, is not. I often get the feeling we're having a harder and harder time distinguishing one from the other. I see nothing wrong, for example, with the phrase, "Be a man."

 

[EmilyMiller]

Just an observation. Not sure how many people under thirty have responded. It was a question intended for both sides of a [potential] generational divide.

Some younger voices would be good to hear too.

Emily

 

[gunhilltrain]

Maybe my perspective, growing up as an outsider, was slightly different from those of you saying, "It was all jokes, but we had a thicker skin and laughed it off."

It was bullying. It was ganging up on whoever was different - anyone who was short, fat, a different colour, who had a different accent, who came from a broken home, who was poorer than most, who had strange hobbies, who was bad at school, or too good at school, who didn't fit very rigid ideas of what a boy/man or girl/woman should be.

And we all did it, because it meant we weren't the ones being targeted. It was a herd mentality of driving out the weakest, and you joined in because then you belonged. And like I said, for now you weren't the one being bullied. Until a few minutes later, when you were.

At the same time, where I grew up, it was pretty much accepted that kids became sexually active anywhere above the age of 14 or so. Maybe not "get naked and do the deed" active right away, but anything involving hands at the very least. Girls and boys both.

And the whole interracial thing was never a fetish. People of different ethnicities were uncommon, but that was mostly because the population was 99.9% white. But no-one batted an eyelid if it happened. Strangely, as society becomes more polarised, that seems to be changing for the worse.

Where I grew up (The Bronx, No Thonx), bullying was somewhat kept in check by certain unwritten rules of thumb. It was hardly perfect, of course, but it was understood: 1. Don't start something you can't finish and 2. a lot of people out there are tougher than they look. I've heard far worse stories about suburban kids in the same time period.

My guess is that most kids below the age of about 16 to 18 were not that sexually active until later decades. Racial tensions were high in New York during that period but again, it was too explosive an issue to exploit except in some highly publicized incidents. The crime rate was certainly high, but I'd have trouble explaining whether social class or race was the most important factor. The guy who stole my dad's car in 1969 was an Irish heroin addict. He was using it for personal transportation, but it never occurred to him to change the licence plates.

The city feels less tense now because of a lower crime rate (it's far worse in some other cities) and also because the population has become so diverse that's it's difficult for any one group to dominate many neighborhoods. My street sense tells me it's much safer to walk around some neighborhoods that I wouldn't enter fifty years ago.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Yes. I grew up on the West Coast and now live in the Northeast.

I like it better up here (mostly because the people are assholes, and I prefer that over saccharine happiness), but it's true that they seem to have missed a number of changes in the "disability sensitivity language" category.

What part of the Northeast do you mean? New Yorkers can seem abrupt to outsiders, but politeness is also very highly valued here. Well, at least among pedestrians and transit riders, less so among motorists. If you so much as nudge a person on transit, you are expected to say "sorry about that" and the usual response will be "no problem." You are also expected to say "excuse me" if you have to get around somebody in the aisle or blocking the door. It's also a good idea to say "thank you" to anybody serving you in a business, even if it's only for a pizza slice.

 

[AlexBailey]

What part of the Northeast do you mean? New Yorkers can seem abrupt to outsiders, but politeness is also very highly valued here. Well, at least among pedestrians and transit riders, less so among motorists. If you so much as nudge a person on transit, you are expected to say "sorry about that" and the usual response will be "no problem." You are also expected to say "excuse me" if you have to get around somebody in the aisle or blocking the door.

That’s the difference of windshield armor.

 

[Voboy]

What part of the Northeast do you mean? New Yorkers can seem abrupt to outsiders, but politeness is also very highly valued here. Well, at least among pedestrians and transit riders, less so among motorists. If you so much as nudge a person on transit, you are expected to say "sorry about that" and the usual response will be "no problem."

I'm in the next big metro area north of NYC, lol. The one associated with Puritans.

The people here are very nice... once they believe you are "in." There is a low-grade, often unacknowledged culture of hazing here, in which the people put new acquaintances through a subtle interrogation designed to figure out where they stand. I've noticed this tendency for years now; I think it's much more noticeable for those of us who came from somewhere else.

Once you've "passed," the people here are wonderful. But there is a veneer of prickliness that I find endearing.

And yes. Don't get me started on motorists up here. They cannot drive, and that's the long and short of it. They have no comprehension of the "passing lane," and many of them can't see how much damage gets done when they try to yield the right-of-way.

 

[gunhilltrain]

I'm in the next big metro area north of NYC, lol. The one associated with Puritans.

The people here are very nice... once they believe you are "in." There is a low-grade, often unacknowledged culture of hazing here, in which the people put new acquaintances through a subtle interrogation designed to figure out where they stand. I've noticed this tendency for years now; I think it's much more noticeable for those of us who came from somewhere else.

Once you've "passed," the people here are wonderful. But there is a veneer of prickliness that I find endearing.

And yes. Don't get me started on motorists up here. They cannot drive, and that's the long and short of it. They have no comprehension of the "passing lane," and many of them can't see how much damage gets done when they try to yield the right-of-way.

Gee, I kept adding more stuff to my comment after your response. So I know which city you mean. I've been there quite often, and it's a little different up there. I'm not sure what's happening now, but it used to be that ethnic neighborhoods and towns were more cohesive there. New York is so damn big that it's more difficult to say, "I'm from such and such a place."

I've heard about the drivers up there, but the road and street system is mostly tight and inadequate. New York and New Jersey also have some roads that are completely antiquated and it's virtually impossible to drive safely on them.

 

[EmilyMiller]

New York and New Jersey also have some roads that are completely antiquated and it's virtually impossible to drive safely on them.

Jersey specializes in screwy road layouts. But at least there are fewer potholes that could swallow your car than back home in PA.

Emily

 

[Bramblethorn]

The use of the term "toxic masculinity" is interesting, because it calls to my mind a trend I've noticed over the years that I think younger people may not be aware of because they never have known anything different. It's the tendency to want to label and taxonomize everything, to diagnose everything, to lump things together. And I think with that has come a tendency to take labels too seriously, to make them too overinclusive. I see creeping essentialism all over the place, including here: a tendency to insist that X is always Y, and it must be Y, and there's no alternative to thinking it must be Y. I see that with judgments people make about kinks they don't like. I believe, on the other hand, that people are complex, that they have multiple and often conflicting sides to them, and that's perfectly OK. I think reality lies in the particular.

I agree that there's a tension between lumping and splitting, and there probably always will be; as I quoted in one of my stories, "all models are wrong but some models are useful" and we'll always be searching for the sweet spot.

I'd disagree with the idea that this is a new thing. People absolutely love finding ways to categorise stuff and have done throughout all of history. Today we taxonomise one another by Myers-Briggs personality types; a few hundred years back it'd be sanguine/choleric/phlegmatic/melancholic. Terms like "highbrow" and "lowbrow" exist in our vocabulary because it used to be fashionable to classify and stereotype people by their skull measurements. Younger folk are much less likely to insist on dividing people into "heterosexual" and "homosexual". Spurious psychiatric diagnoses were invented at the drop of a hat as a way to pathologise stuff we didn't like, and people absolutely looooooved classifying one another into "races" and making generalisations about those, not that this has entirely gone away.

It gets more noticeable when the taxonomy is one that one hasn't grown up with, or when one's on the wrong end of it, but we've been doing it forever.

 

[CockSparrow]

I will soon turn 80 (if I live that long). I grew up in The Cotswolds, in the UK. (Think Gloucester, Oxford, Bath, and a hundred tiny villages in between.)

Growing up in the ‘fifties, my memories are of people being generally kind, polite, civilised, but certainly not woke. Scots were Jocks; the Irish were Paddies; the Welsh (my mother was Welsh) were Taffs. The French were Frogs; Italians were Eyeties; Germans were Krauts; and the Chinese were Chinks. And they all featured in our jokes. One of my best friends was Samoan, and he had what seemed like an endless collection of Coconut jokes.

Being homosexual was illegal, but we all knew a few ‘queers’. And a couple of my great aunts were openly Lesbian. The local bishop declined to give my great grandfather permission to marry his sister-in-law, so she simply ‘moved in’ and they lived the rest of their lives ‘in sin’. One of my great-uncles shared his bed with his ‘housekeeper’.

And then we drifted into hippiedom – and things really started to get loose.

 

[Devinter]

I'm in my early 30's and from one of the most progressive countries in the world. I've read through this thread and seen some excellent comments being made from people across the generations. However, from what I can gather, it seems that just about everyone agrees that one should not makes jokes about the disabled. Under almost all circumstances, I agree with that - but I have a story here that I wish to share, that I think is worth some consideration and thought.

Few years back, I went to a comedy club with a group of friends, one whom has cerebral palsy. He's a bright man, and he's visibly disabled. The comedy club we went to was called RAW - and in Sweden, that basically means it's a place for comedians to bring out their darkest, rawest material. Many of the jokes told that night would have been highly inappropriate to tell outside of a comedy club.

One of the comedians that night, he roasted just about every person in the front row, where me and my group of friends sat. My friend, being in a wheelchair, was basically dead-centre - in the aisle, all the way up front. Impossible to miss. And, in fact, the comedian looked at him at least twenty times during his set - visibly uncomfortable - and never said a single word to roast him. Even after my friend straight up said "It's okay!" to the comedian.

Afterwards, my friend was noticeably sad. I asked him about it, and he said quite simply: "I just want to be treated like everyone else." The venue was rather small, and the comedian lingered in the lobby to speak with people afterwards - so we decided to approach him, and ask him straight up, why he didn't roast my friend as well. It was clearly not because he was woke, because he made fun of me for being a man with long hair, along with many other similar things to other people.

And the comedian gave us an honest answer. He said to my friend "I could tell after a while that you'd be able to handle it, but I am not sure if the rest of the crowd would have. They might have been offended on your behalf. That has happened to me before."

I think there's a valuable lesson there, somewhere.

THAT BEING SAID; Imagine it would have been a reverse scenario, where my friend would NOT have been comfortable, and the comedian just completely and savagely laid into him? That would not have been particularly great either. So, in my opinion, the key with any jokes told is to attempt to read the crowd, and take the location into account. Maybe save your most raunchy jokes for when you're outside the workplace, you know? But, sometimes, even when reading the room, there will be that one outlier that you didn't expect. Someone that takes a joke the wrong way. And I wonder if we truly should always adapt to that one sensitive individual, even if the joke isn't about them in any way, and whom gets offended and outraged on other people's behalf. If we do, is there truly anything we could joke about with zero risk of causing offense? Probably not. And I say that as someone who grew up in front of the internet, albeit the less cool version than we have today. (Though with an equal amount of cats, thankfully!)

 

[gunhilltrain]

Jersey specializes in screwy road layouts. But at least there are fewer potholes that could swallow your car than back home in PA.

Emily

You never saw New York City streets in the 1970's. The potholes took up more of the surface than the pavement did.

 

[Duleigh]

1. Non-con seen through the lens of girls being “good” and needing to be seduced (which isn’t so much of an IRL thing nowadays)
2. Interracial being taboo
3. Jokes about sexual orientation
4. Jokes about disability
5. Men crying

1. Girls no longer need to be seduced? A guy just walks up to a girl in a grocery store and drops his pants and she just hits her knees and starts sucking? COOL!
2. I don't know about interracial anything - my interracial stories often get slammed, so I guess the taboo is still on
3. Jokes about sexual orientation can get you life in prison in Canada. I guess tolerance only goes so far north.
4. Hey I'm disabled, tell me a good one that doesn't involve my superior parking spaces.
5. It all depends on the context. Some guy weeping because someone else didn't change the toner in the office copy machine is unacceptable. (and I've seen it)

 

[gunhilltrain]

I'm in my early 30's and from one of the most progressive countries in the world. I've read through this thread and seen some excellent comments being made from people across the generations. However, from what I can gather, it seems that just about everyone agrees that one should not makes jokes about the disabled. Under almost all circumstances, I agree with that - but I have a story here that I wish to share, that I think is worth some consideration and thought.

Few years back, I went to a comedy club with a group of friends, one whom has cerebral palsy. He's a bright man, and he's visibly disabled. The comedy club we went to was called RAW - and in Sweden, that basically means it's a place for comedians to bring out their darkest, rawest material. Many of the jokes told that night would have been highly inappropriate to tell outside of a comedy club.

One of the comedians that night, he roasted just about every person in the front row, where me and my group of friends sat. My friend, being in a wheelchair, was basically dead-centre - in the aisle, all the way up front. Impossible to miss. And, in fact, the comedian looked at him at least twenty times during his set - visibly uncomfortable - and never said a single word to roast him. Even after my friend straight up said "It's okay!" to the comedian.

Afterwards, my friend was noticeably sad. I asked him about it, and he said quite simply: "I just want to be treated like everyone else." The venue was rather small, and the comedian lingered in the lobby to speak with people afterwards - so we decided to approach him, and ask him straight up, why he didn't roast my friend as well. It was clearly not because he was woke, because he made fun of me for being a man with long hair, along with many other similar things to other people.

And the comedian gave us an honest answer. He said to my friend "I could tell after a while that you'd be able to handle it, but I am not sure if the rest of the crowd would have. They might have been offended on your behalf. That has happened to me before."

I think there's a valuable lesson there, somewhere.

THAT BEING SAID; Imagine it would have been a reverse scenario, where my friend would NOT have been comfortable, and the comedian just completely and savagely laid into him? That would not have been particularly great either. So, in my opinion, the key with any jokes told is to attempt to read the crowd, and take the location into account. Maybe save your most raunchy jokes for when you're outside the workplace, you know? But, sometimes, even when reading the room, there will be that one outlier that you didn't expect. Someone that takes a joke the wrong way. And I wonder if we truly should always adapt to that one sensitive individual, even if the joke isn't about them in any way, and whom gets offended and outraged on other people's behalf. If we do, is there truly anything we could joke about with zero risk of causing offense? Probably not. And I say that as someone who grew up in front of the internet, albeit the less cool version than we have today. (Though with an equal amount of cats, thankfully!)

Comedy is a very tricky thing to do. Sometimes, but not always, it's funniest to joke "up" at the rich and powerful instead of "down" at the less so.

The late Bernie Mac could pull off some difficult jokes. Part of the reason was that he was often making fun of his own reaction to things. An example is his routine about faking his own funeral.

 

[Bramblethorn]

1. Girls no longer need to be seduced? A guy just walks up to a girl in a grocery store and drops his pants and she just hits her knees and starts sucking? COOL!

There's more than one kind of "seduction". Impressing somebody with your wit and charm before asking if they'll go to bed with you - that's fine, that's still a thing. (Though it's not always the guy doing it.)

But sometimes "seduction" encompasses the idea that women (usually women) might be reluctant to admit that they want sex, so it's okay to use coercion if you think she'll be grateful afterwards. Or even if you don't, sometimes.

For instance, Wiki's plot summary of "Dangerous Liaisons" says: "Valmont resolves to seduce Cécile as revenge for her mother's accurate denunciation of him...Valmont gains access to Cécile's bedchamber on a pretext, and sexually assaults her. As she pleads with him to leave, he blackmails her into giving up physical resistance, and the scene ends." Valmont's pursuit of Madame de Tourvel, less violent but even more damaging, is also described as "seduction".

3. Jokes about sexual orientation can get you life in prison in Canada. I guess tolerance only goes so far north.

Without a cite, this sounds...unlikely. Is this really a matter of jokes alone being punishable by life imprisonment?

Or is it maybe some kind of "if you make jokes about somebody's sexuality while you're beating them to death, those jokes might be used as evidence of a hate crime that increases the sentence" thing?

 

[EmilyMiller]

1. Girls no longer need to be seduced? A guy just walks up to a girl in a grocery store and drops his pants and she just hits her knees and starts sucking? COOL!

I think we have different ideas about what the word “seduced” means.

Most women nowadays, don’t think that wanting sex makes them sluts and that good girls don’t want sex. Many now enjoy sex kinda like guys always have.

The ancient seduction thing was based on women not being able to admit they wanted sex. And men thus being empowered to not take no as meaning no. Which is a total clusterfuck and a rapists’ charter.

Nowadays no means no, and not maybe yes. That’s a lot more healthy.

Emily

 

[AchtungNight]

I’m glad no means no and women are empowered to admit they want and enjoy sex in this modern age. Still wish I could meet more such sex-positive women into me, though. My fictional characters are lucky, but I’m not them. Doesn’t mean I would ever try deception or assault to get sex. I have standards and ethics. I may be desperate but I’m not stupid!

To answer the original question of this thread, I used to have issues with sexual orientation, interracial relationships, and gender dynamics. Then I got older and wiser. I also learned from experiences that showed me how wrong I was. Things like-

-enjoying romance novels for the heroines and sex scenes.

- having the first woman who saw me cry also be the first one with whom I was sexually intimate (we aren’t together anymore, but I wouldn’t trade her family and strong loving relationship with another guy for anything).

- finding women of other races attractive as well as women of mixed race and admitting I have such opinions without fear.

- living in a foreign country and learning how valuable it is to open yourself to diversity.

- having people of LBTGQ orientation among my family and admired celebrities.

- kissing a man on a dare, then telling him I honestly didn’t like it and had no desire to repeat it, and having him say “that’s ok, enjoy being straight”.

- enjoying a loving marriage while it lasted, then watching it die, then becoming content with being single again. (I’m still lonely and would love to get seduced again, but I’m content not to try and force it.)

- Seeing many other people go through similar experiences.

- Writing and enjoying reading erotic stories on Lit.