Get O'er it

[TheRainMan]

OK...

Remember my first comments...

"However, I think poets, writers and any other artist have the "individual" right to "form" their creations in their own typical "style", even if words are altered or even "invented" such as... o'er."

Gaia_Lorraine is "experimenting" with her own individual style, based on her own local accent... Lancashire, northern england, like Wordsworth...

She is trying, no doubt to re-introduce her "dialect" into her poetry... her form of "individuality" ... please, understand this... she is skilled in that because ever since she was born and long before that, the old dialect of Lancashire is still present, unchanged since Wordsworth's days...

I hope this helps you understand, TheRainMan and others who find non-conformity in Gaia_Lorraine's poetry...

Let's call it... Artistic Licence

yes, i saw those comments.

and, of course, a writer is free to write whatever they wish and experiment to their heart's desire.

but, IMO, if a writer is serious about their craft and its improvement, it is not a wise use of time and sweat to go backwards to find your voice.

Wordsworth, Byron, lived then . . . we live now. they found their voice in the people and things that surrounded them. modern writers do the same.

that language was the language of their world when they wrote it, and the language their readers read in.

it is not that any longer.

and to write that way, as MNS stated in his opinion at the beginning, with which i agree wholeheartedly, looks anything but genuine, or real.

 

[wildsweetone]

hey i think you guys are talking about two different things..


one is english dialect (i think there is 80 dialetcs in England) at the present time, which is what Gaia_Lorraine is using (from what Sienna is saying).

and the other, is 'old english' language (from what TRM is saying).

'o'er' is coincidentally used in both modern english dialect and in 'old english' language.

just 2p worth from a colonist.

 

[TheRainMan]

hey i think you guys are talking about two different things..


one is english dialect (i think there is 80 dialetcs in England) at the present time, which is what Gaia_Lorraine is using (from what Sienna is saying).

and the other, is 'old english' language (from what TRM is saying).

'o'er' is coincidentally used in both modern english dialect and in 'old english' language.

just 2p worth from a colonist.

no -- what we're talking about is poetry.

(i know ... i'm a smart ass) . . .

and, whether the use of archaic language (you can call it 'dialect,' or anything you like) in poetry written today is affectatious or not.

i think it is, and painfully so.

and hi, Kiwi.

 

[wildsweetone]

no -- what we're talking about is poetry.

(i know ... i'm a smart ass) . . .

and, whether the use of archaic language (you can call it 'dialect,' or anything you like) in poetry written today is affectatious or not.

i think it is, and painfully so.

and hi, Kiwi.

it sounds remarkably like you don't get what i was saying. hmm how to explain it..... do you get English programs in the States? eg Eastenders, Coronation Street, The Bill, Bad Girls, French & Saunders. In each of those the characters' dialect includes slang words which are known in their own areas (their own counties [States]). The dialect for some will include the word we all know as 'over' but they may speak it as o'er.

does that make sense? surely you can understand the concept of 'voice' in poetry? the author's voice coming through in their poetry? the LS voice?

shall i carry on banging my head against my own brick wall? lol

and gidday back atcha.

 

[TheRainMan]

it sounds remarkably like you don't get what i was saying. hmm how to explain it..... do you get English programs in the States? eg Eastenders, Coronation Street, The Bill, Bad Girls, French & Saunders. In each of those the characters' dialect includes slang words which are known in their own areas (their own counties [States]). The dialect for some will include the word we all know as 'over' but they may speak it as o'er.

does that make sense? surely you can understand the concept of 'voice' in poetry? the author's voice coming through in their poetry? the LS voice?

shall i carry on banging my head against my own brick wall? lol

and gidday back atcha.

i know exactly what you're talking about -- (yes, we get English programs) --
that is not relevant to the discussion, unless it has mutated beyond my comprehension.

did you read the first post of this thread? . . . here:

O'er
the word went out with Hopkins, He used it for a reason. We don't have to. I think it looks more like an affectation, than an effective rythm marker.

Your thoughts, M' Dears.

I must admit to a deep and unnatural affection for Lord Byron
does anyone else share this secret shame?

Bob Southey! You're a poet -- Poet-laureate,
......And representative of all the race,
Although 't is true that you turn'd out a Tory at
...... Last, -- yours has lately been a common case;
And now, my Epic Renegade! what are ye at?
......With all the Lakers, in and out of place?
A nest of tuneful persons, to my eye
Like "four and twenty Blackbirds in a pye;

This may have been before they moved to LA

that's Lord Byron. and MNS was posing the opinion that words like o'er look like affectations in today's poetry.

i agree with him.

and i think anyone who writes in the manner of Wordsworth or Byron, for any reason at all, suffers greatly from being unnecessarily lost in the past.

now, go ahead, and bang away. just don't raise too many lumps on your noggin.

 

[champagne1982]

Well, y'all can call it old-fashioned if'n y'like, but I amn't gonna stop spellin' wit' ma superfluous 'U's' and when I write I try not to write in dialect unless it is a device I'm using ON PURPOSE and FOR A PURPOSE, as all good poets should . So let's gawn o'er ta the bar and has us's a beer.

 

[TheRainMan]

. . . us's . . .

i think it should be us'n.

hey, bartender ...

... draw one, two, three, four glasses of beer.

 

[champagne1982]

i think it should be us'n.

hey, bartender ...

... draw one, two, three, four glasses of beer.

That would be the way you easterners say it.

 

[TheRainMan]

That would be the way you easterners say it.

local dialects.

half Brooklyn / half Nashville.

i'm a mutt . . . ain't got no papers.

 

[wildsweetone]

you're allowed to agree with him.

i did read his first post, and in his comment he states:

'O'er
the word went out with Hopkins, He used it for a reason. We don't have to. I think it looks more like an affectation, than an effective rythm marker.'

what i'm saying is, the word did not go out with Hopkins. it is obviously still in use today in contemporary writing with those who speak the word O'er in their everyday language and with those who wish to have their LS using such language.

words like o'ver might look affectatious in today's poetry if they're not used with skill and especially if they are not understood in the way they are spoken. i.e. just because you don't hear them in your everyday speech in the States does not mean they do not exist in everyday language in England or any other english speaking country for that matter.

if you get Eastenders (just as an example) in your neck of the woods then it would be worth sitting down and really listening to the pronunciation, the intonation, the actual words used, etc in the speech used in daily situations. it is different to the language spoken here in NZ - we have a more 'formal' english... you in the States have a more formal english too. i can write a sentence in my spoken english and you can have no hassle whatsoever with saying it in your own spoken english. but as soon as i start putting in slang words or idiosyncracies from around here, you will likely be stumbling.

MNS is entitled to their opinion. in my opinion his line:

'Although 't is true that you turn'd out a Tory at'

should read

' 'though 'tis true that you turn'd out a Tory at'

but then, that's just my opinion.

 

[TheRainMan]

. . . what i'm saying is, the word did not go out with Hopkins . . .

well, here's we we disagree.

just because it is "used" by some, does not mean it did not go out . . . it just means that those using it do not know it did.

. . .
it is obviously still in use today in contemporary writing . . .

of course it is. and it is my contention that it is used only by amateurs (and some, very few i would think, poets with profound skills who know how to do it without being artificial).

i do not use the words "contemporary writing" to mean every person that's writing today, only those that have risen above, those that set trend because of their quality.

that is why i asked Sienna to cite and post a poem by a top, modern poet as an example . . . i'd still like to see one, and more than that, a trend that would indicate that such styles of writing are going on by any poets of superior quality . . . i do not think they are, but if they are, i'd like to know where.

 

[wildsweetone]

well, here's we we disagree.

*just because it is "used" by some, does not mean it did not go out . . . it just means that those using it do not know it did.




of course it is. and it is my contention that it is used only by amateurs (and some, very few i would think, poets with profound skills who know how to do it without being artificial).

**i do not use the words "contemporary writing" to mean every person that's writing today, only those those have risen above, those that set trend because of their quality.

that is why i asked Sienna to cite and post a poem by a top, modern poet as an example . . . i'd still like to see one, and more than that, a trend that would indicate that such styles of writing are going on by any poets of superior quality . . . i do not think they are, but if they are, i'd like to know where.

*if a word has been in use in spoken language for hundreds of years, and is still being used today, how can it have gone out? ah, a difference... spoken to written.

the word o'er (you would not believe how many times i had to type those four characters to get them in the right order just now) is still being used today. i shall see if i can hunt out some published poets who would be willing to let me quote their poetry here.

**there is a huge difference with those poets who are published and those who 'set trend' with their writing. heck, i thought you were talking simply about published poetry from today's poets... not 'trend setters'. how many of today's poets worldwide are trend setters?

 

[TheRainMan]

. . .
**there is a huge difference with those poets who are published and those who 'set trend' with their writing. heck, i thought you were talking simply about published poetry from today's poets... not 'trend setters'. how many of today's poets worldwide are trend setters?

any well-published poet will do, as long as he/she does it on a consistent basis as part of his/her style, and not just to a particular purpose in a particular poem.

i'm not just talking about that word either ... o'er ... but the style it implies, Wordsworth/Byron/et al style of writing ...

it just is not the language our world speaks to us in any longer, and if that is true, then it should not be the language we use to speak about it.

 

[wildsweetone]

i understand what you're saying, but with respect, i think you are wearing blinkers and don't see the possiblity that this word (and other idiosyncratic words) are able to be used in modern poetry and used with skill.

another way of putting it, you are carrying your learned notions with you when you are reading that word, and other words that were used in old english writings and are perhaps not able to see beyond their old english useage.

maybe. *shrug*


ah, yes i see what you mean about that particular 'style' of writing. but then that style encompasses a whole series of phrases and written language that would be like us speaking 'yoda' language. and i agree, it is highly unlikely that any contemporary poet would be writing 'old english' on a consistent basis and being published and have a wide audience. i would think there simply isn't the market for that kind of poetry.

nice to narrow you down a little.



...interesting to note that the word 'o'er' is still in today's modern dictionaries.

 

[MyNecroticSnail]

Post the poem, with the comments here. You had at least two poets published extensivley outside in this thread. Rainman and Angeline. They may be kind enough to revisit. Let's have it context.

 

[Gaia_Lorraine]

Whether or not the use of Oe'r is grammatically or poetically correct, it don't half provoke a damn good discussion

 

[Sienna]

Whether or not the use of Oe'r is grammatically or poetically correct, it don't half provoke a damn good discussion

... LOL ...

((( LORRAINE )))

 

[MyNecroticSnail]

Whether or not the use of Oe'r is grammatically or poetically correct, it don't half provoke a damn good discussion

Do want you want, write what you want. Both your original and your reply I believe are flawed. You wish to focus on one aspect out of context. Post them, count it out. No commas?, eerie. All poetic licence? You are not one of those that believe everything you write is an act of god are you? Perfect. Or do you wish to improve your craft?
Now is your chance to prove what a big girl you are. Let's see it.

 

[MyNecroticSnail]

... LOL ...

((( LORRAINE )))

Excellent discussion

 

[Tzara]

<snip>it is my contention that it is used only by amateurs (and some, very few i would think, poets with profound skills who know how to do it without being artificial).

i do not use the words "contemporary writing" to mean every person that's writing today, only those that have risen above, those that set trend because of their quality.

that is why i asked Sienna to cite and post a poem by a top, modern poet as an example . . . i'd still like to see one, and more than that, a trend that would indicate that such styles of writing are going on by any poets of superior quality . . . i do not think they are, but if they are, i'd like to know where.

Ballad of the Scholar's Lament
E. E. Cummings

When I have struggled through three hundred years
of Roman history, and hastened o'er
Some French play-(though I have my private fears
Of flunking sorely when I take the floor
In class),-when I have steeped my soul in gore
And Greek, and figured over half a ream
With Algebra, which I do (not) adore,
How shall I manage to compose a theme?

It's well enough to talk of poor and peers,
And munch the golden apples' shiny core,
And lay a lot of heroes on their biers;-
While the great Alec, knocking down a score,
Takes out his handkerchief, boohoo-ing, "More!"-
But harshly I awaken from my dream,
To find a new,-er,-privilege,-in store:
How shall I manage to compose a theme?

After I've swallowed prophecies of seers,
And trailed Aeneas from the Trojan shore,
Learned how Achilles, after many jeers,
On piggy Agamemnon got to sore,
And heard how Hercules, Esq., tore
Around, and swept and dusted with a stream,
There's one last duty,-let's not call it bore,-
How shall I manage to compose a theme?

Envoi

Of what avail is all my mighty lore?
I beat my breast, I tear my hair, I scream:
"Behold, I have a Herculean chore.
How shall I manage to compose a theme?"




Probably just demonstrating Mr. Man's point.

 

[Tzara]

Exchanging Hats
Elizabeth Bishop

Unfunny uncles who insist
in trying on a lady's hat,
--oh, even if the joke falls flat,
we share your slight transvestite twist

in spite of our embarrassment.
Costume and custom are complex.
The headgear of the other sex
inspires us to experiment.

Anandrous aunts, who, at the beach
with paper plates upon your laps,
keep putting on the yachtsmen's caps
with exhibitionistic screech,

the visors hanging o'er the ear
so that the golden anchors drag,
--the tides of fashion never lag.
Such caps may not be worn next year.

Or you who don the paper plate
itself, and put some grapes upon it,
or sport the Indian's feather bonnet,
--perversities may aggravate

the natural madness of the hatter.
And if the opera hats collapse
and crowns grow draughty, then, perhaps,
he thinks what might a miter matter?

Unfunny uncle, you who wore a
hat too big, or one too many,
tell us, can't you, are there any
stars inside your black fedora?

Aunt exemplary and slim,
with avernal eyes, we wonder
what slow changes they see under
their vast, shady, turned-down brim.

 

[Tzara]

Canto I
Ezra Pound

And then went down to the ship,
Set keel to breakers, forth on the godly sea, and
We set up mast and sail on tha swart ship,
Bore sheep aboard her, and our bodies also
Heavy with weeping, so winds from sternward
Bore us out onward with bellying canvas,
Circe's this craft, the trim-coifed goddess.
Then sat we amidships, wind jamming the tiller,
Thus with stretched sail, we went over sea till day's end.
Sun to his slumber, shadows o'er all the ocean,
Came we then to the bounds of deepest water,
To the Kimmerian lands, and peopled cities
Covered with close-webbed mist, unpierced ever
With glitter of sun-rays
Nor with stars stretched, nor looking back from heaven
Swartest night stretched over wretched men there.
The ocean flowing backward, came we then to the place
Aforesaid by Circe.
Here did they rites, Perimedes and Eurylochus,
And drawing sword from my hip
I dug the ell-square pitkin;
Poured we libations unto each the dead,
First mead and then sweet wine, water mixed with white flour.
Then prayed I many a prayer to the sickly death's-head;
As set in Ithaca, sterile bulls of the best
For sacrifice, heaping the pyre with goods,
A sheep to Tiresias only, black and a bell-sheep.
Dark blood flowed in the fosse,
Souls out of Erebus, cadaverous dead, of brides
Of youths and at the old who had borne much;
Souls stained with recent tears, girls tender,
Men many, mauled with bronze lance heads,
Battle spoil, bearing yet dreory arms,
These many crowded about me; with shouting,
Pallor upon me, cried to my men for more beasts;
Slaughtered the heards, sheep slain of bronze;
Poured ointment, cried to the gods,
To Pluto the strong, and praised Proserpine;
Unsheathed the narrow sword,
I sat to keep off the impetuous impotent dead,
Till I should hear Tiresias.
But first Elpenor came, our friend Elpenor,
Unburied, cast on the wide earth,
Limbs that we left in the house of Circe,
Unwept, unwrapped in sepulchre, since toils urged other.
Pitiful spirit. And I cried in hurried speech:
"Elpenor, how art thou come to this dark coast?
Cam'st thou afoot, outstripping seamen?"

......And he in heavy speech:
"Ill fate and abundant wine. I slept in Circe's ingle.
Going down the long ladder unguarded,
I fell against the buttress,
Shattered the nape-nerve, the soul sought Avernus.
But thou, O King, I bid remember me, unwept, unburied,
Heap up mine arms, be tomb by sea-bord, and inscribed:
A man of no fortune, and with a name to come.
And set my oar up, that I swung mid fellows."

And Anticlea came, whom I beat off, and then Tiresias Theban,
Holding his golden wand, knew me, and spoke first:
"A second time? why? man of ill star,
Facing the sunless dead and this joyless region?
Stand from the fosse, leave me my bloody bever
For soothsay."
......And I stepped back,
And he stong with the blood, said then: "Odysseus
Shalt return through spiteful Neptune, over dark seas,
Lose all companions." And then Anticlea came.
Lie quiet Divus. I mean, that is Andreas Divus,
In officina Wecheli, 1538, out of Homer.
And he sailed, by Sirens and thence outward and away
And unto Circe.
......Venerandam,
In the Creatan's phrase, with the golden crown, Aphrodite,
Cypri munimenta sortita est, mirthful, orichalchi, with golden
Girdles and breast bands, thou with dark eyelids
Bearing the golden bough of Argicida. So that:

 

[Tzara]

I Wandered Ghostly as a Shroud
Edna St Vincent Millay

I hovered ghostly, like a cloud
That floats on high o'er vales and hills,
When all at once I saw a shroud
Descend and cloak the daffodils;
Beside the lake, beneath the trees,
Smothering, choking every breeze.

Continuous as dead stars that shine
And twinkle on the milky way,
They stretched in never-ending line
along the margin of a bay;
Ten thousand saw I at a glance
Dear, once alive - now perished plants.

The waves beside them danced, but where
Had skipped these sparkling waves in glee;
A poet could not but despair
In such discordant company:
I gazed - and gazed and thought - and thought
How sweet the bloom Death's soldiers bought.

For oft when on my couch I lie
In vacant or in pensive mood,
They flash upon that inward eye
Which is the bliss of solitude;
And then my heart with piercing dread
Grows still as daffodils, quite dead.

 

[TheRainMan]

Probably just demonstrating Mr. Man's point.

i think so.

they are all poets with profound skills, using language and rhyme and structure to a particular effect in a particular poem.

none of them are contemporary (i guess that depends on how you want to stretch the word). all have been dead for quite a while, though no one can deny the skills of each.

even Pound, and i hate his writing.

 

[Gaia_Lorraine]

Do want you want, write what you want. Both your original and your reply I believe are flawed. You wish to focus on one aspect out of context. Post them, count it out. No commas?, eerie. All poetic licence? You are not one of those that believe everything you write is an act of god are you? Perfect. Or do you wish to improve your craft?
Now is your chance to prove what a big girl you are. Let's see it.

Believe that my words are written by God? Only a fool would think that.
I write simply because I enjoy it. I will never claim to be a good poet but if my words just happen to touch someone or provoke a discussion then that is reward enough.