Hey Trolly?

[tungtied2u]

Stating the obvious..

It seems to me there are three main categories of people who post poetry here.
The first are those who post solely for fun. Improving their poetry is not a concern, they just want to be heard.
The second are those who want to improve their poetry but do not see it as the driving force in their life.
The third are hardcore poets, very serious about their poetry and their desire to someday be published.

In all these groups are those who enjoy the social aspect of the site, the interchange of ideas and idle banter that takes place. Some show up only occasionally to post a new writing then fade back into the woodwork.

I find Jim's observations and comments to be pretty much what I have seen here. Yet while I admire Jim's professionalism and dedication to improving his and other's craft admirable, I think he and others here sometimes fail to recognize the people from groups 1 and 2.

People who have limited time they wish to or can dedicate to this site, and/or limited understanding of poetry and its many permutations often find it difficult to express what they like or why it moves them in a piece they read. These reasons can lead to the type or even lack of feedback they leave.

To me this site is a microcosm of the real world. All types of people, at varying stages of maturity and wisdom. Generally there is something to be gleaned from each and every one of them if one looks hard enough and wishes to learn.

I say enjoy the diversity, make friends, have fun and learn. And ignore the things that don't add something positive.

OK, enough burbling- time to make money, provide food and shelter.

Trolls, when you get tired of sitting under that bridge all alone, come on out and join the party. Or if there's enough of you....party amongst yourselves...

 

[WickedEve]

Re: It all seems a bit ironic

and maybe it is like a big pendulum, with the weight beginning to swing again.

In reading the comments made by Tongue Lasher, I couldn't help but think that TL was making the right point but with the wrong poets on the wrong poems. TL, if you look at a fairly recent posting of mine titled "Building" you will see a complimentary comment with constructive criticism provided by Eve. A comment she made a day or so before your first comment on her poems.

If you go through her poems you will find several similarly complimentary comments with constructive criticism from me. You will also see some others by someone called YDD.

I am not sure how long TL has been reading here, but about six months ago, shortly after the public comments feature was added here at Lit, the public comments were often used as a means of encouraging other poets with constructive criticism. Criticism that was received by some (especially Eve and a dozen or so others) as significant feedback and as a helpful tool to continuing improving our work. YDD and I seemed to trade the lead in public comments, with Eve, Angeline and a few others right there too.

Unfortunately, not everyone accepted this feedback as positive. On occasion the feedback may have seemed harsh, though certainly nowhere near the crapola statements that have been excreted of late. I voted a poem the way I thought it should be rated and then I explained why I voted that way, sometimes with recommendations or ideas they might consider for improvement. What followed was an onslaught of complaints and attacks in the forums and in public comments. YDD had the good sense to work under a name without any work posted, so he (I have always assumed YDD was a he) faced only the more public ostricism. I was a brave soul who commented from the same name I had my work posted to and from that time attracted my own personal unabombers who followed me not only in the poetry I posted, but also in the prose. Though I have a pretty good idea of who the people are, I decided not to stoop to their level and simply learned to trim a few low scores off each and everything I do to get a real gauge of my work.

A number of poets here came to the defense of YDD, me and several others that were caught up in the tumble. Eve and Lauren were two of the loudest voices who supported the people who where providing the criticism on the poetry, along with Angeline, Liar, Tath, Boo and a handful of others. I hung in for a while, but when I saw the votes on my work fall to nothing, I stopped commenting and withdrew from the New Poems review, withdrawing from the poetry scene altogether. YDD stuck it out longer, but left not too long after.

In recent months I returned and found that, as TL correctly indicates, there is a lot of backslapping going on here, and hey, if it is warranted, I think it's great. Unfortunately, I see a lot, a whole of lot backslapping on some pretty mediocre (at best) work. While I agree about what TL says, I think she is off base directing the comment at Eve and Lauren, two who have been the most vocal here supporting constructive criticism.

Yes, poets sometimes get didactic, we play some games with meanings, sometimes actually conceal what we are saying in the verbage we use. Sometimes it's a ruse, hiding inferior work, other times there is reason, perhaps very personal reason for the linguistic subtrifuge. I think, to automatically dismiss a poem that is not immediately understandable as inferior work is short sighted. You cheat the poet of his/her voice, but the reader cheats himself/herself too, you cheat yourself the experience of the complexities of the work.

More specifically, Eve's poem "Stereogram Seduction" initally had me spinning, wondering where she was coming from. Looking at the title, I spotted Stereogram and something clicked. Initially thinking that a stereogram was the old slotted cylinder inside which you spun the images, making them appear to move, but with a quick google I learned that Stereograms were those puzzles you look at, where looking at it a certain way a 3-D image appears. Her later mention of Magic Eye reinforces the image.

Suddenly the poem became very clear and I was blown away as each line carried me though the steps I take when I try to draw the 3-d image out of the jumble of pictures on the page. I joined Eve as the (strangely) nude 3-D images appeared and thought, yes, very sexy.

For some the poem may have been a simple drug trip in the kitchen, for me it was a well crafted poem with interesting phrasing that not only presented its message, it presented in a manner that physically made me a part of the poem. Poetry like that deserves the highest praise. It is poetry that hopefully won't just age here at literotica, it is poetry that deserves to land in some other publication.

I guess some good has come from the irony... I have seen one of the more vocal attackers of the constructive criticism actually working now to improve their poetry, using some of the very techniques and practices that he once ridiculed in this forum. I guess it was good someone finally got through.

And then there is Billy Collins... but that my friends, strangers and unabombers is a completely different story.

Forgive me for being even more long winded than Anna... It's been building up in me for some time.

Eve thank you for your continued support of my poems, reading and commenting... and criticising. Lauren thank you for Pessoa and the lights in the stars. Angeline... thank you for proving that the world is not all iambic, regardless of my continued scansion. Other readers, commenters and poets, thanks for the reads, comments and poems... I steal more than you know from you.


jim : )


PS... yeah, that was a bit too dramatic. just call me a drama queen like Eve. I do take small satisfaction that my daughter is a much bigger Drama Queen than I am .

Jim, dear poet, I'm glad you have joined me in dramaville. You can be a drama princess.

I am guilty of leaving backslapping, praiseful feedback. I praise poems (some by novice poets) that I do not particularly find appealing. It bothers me a little but I keep thinking they need the praise. I hope to lure them to the board, where they may learn how to improve. Because of the poets here, I've improved.

Jim, I'm glad you understand my stereogram poem. Many of my similarly odd poems are usually seen as confusing pieces of nonsense. But I always insert clues in my poetry that tell the reader, at least, most of the story. I like to challenge the reader, and I respect the reader's intelligence enough not to always be dumbing down my work. So, I will continue writing some poetry that baffles--especially now that I know that someone like you takes the time to "get it." Actually, I'm like some of my off-the-wall poems. lol Most people think I'm bizarre and goofy. They just don't get me. They don't take time to dig deeper and see what I'm really about. People, I'm more than the queen of drama!

 

[WickedEve]

I have seriouly tried to find something of your's the I hate, could only come up with one AV.

Okay, which one? (hey, you've got some green jello on your chin)

 

[twelveoone]

Eve
The AV, I did not like was the one with the bag over your head.
Jim, re: YDD, what the fuck, over. Give the devil his due, eh?
j

 

[WickedEve]

Eve
The AV, I did not like was the one with the bag over your head.
Jim, re: YDD, what the fuck, over. Give the devil his due, eh?
j

I think you mistook my hair for a bag. (paper or plastic?)

 

[twelveoone]

Since jim touched my YDD raw nerve, let me say this YDD may have been the best reviewer ever. Rare ability to get outside a narrowly defined area of what poetry is. Yeh, eve's comments may be a little short sometimes, but she has that ability also. I TRULY MORN THE LOSS OF YDD, and thank him for the handful that he left on mine.

 

[annaswirls]

"more long winded than anna?"

wah!


see, gosh, we can even take critiques of our posts.
sniff sniff



Jim, I have seen the "wow I loved your story and gave it a 5, come do the same to my story" than with the poems. I never know how to respond to those.


I still like Rybka's idea of having a separate, more "Journal" like part to Literotica, where a few selected poems and stories are published, and let the part that is literotica now be more of a workshop. I know there are places that have different areas to post.


*Light Criticism
*No criticism
*Serious criticism

We have enough poems coming out every day to fill those categories nicely.

Have those, and a way to submit poems for consideration into the "Journal/ezine" portion.


Just a thought

would certainly solve the whole comment and voting bit. Poems and stories could get noticed beyond what often turns out to be a popularity (or result of a personal attack, or a random knocking down) contest in the Top list.

 

[Angeline]

So, what have we learned in this thread?

1. jthserra (whom I adore and am thrilled to see posting on this forum again) is a drama queen-or princess. What a topsy-turvy world--has anyone noticed that tungtied turned into Cybil Shepherd? Eve is still a drama queen. She never changes.

2. PatCarrington may actually be Al Pacino (I can't think about this more till I finish my coffee--too exciting).

3. Boo Merengue has a smurf fixation--literally.

4. Tongue Lasher had the guts to come in the thread and make her points in a reasonable way. I respect that. I certainly like it better than nonconstructive--imo--comments.

5. The monkey showed wisdom and restraint--he's so zen. He's so cool.

Eagleyez, showing perhaps the most restraint of all, read about half the thread and went to sleep. But then he never cared about votes or comments or any of this stuff...

I'm glad we are talking about all this. I remember the Herculean effort that jthserra put into his remarks when he was doing weekly comments. I did comments for about two years and it was a lot of work. It's a labor of love for poetry. Some time back, when Jim was treated so poorly--bad-mouthed and one-bombed because he gave constructive, critical advice to writers who didn't want to hear it (and he was remarkably gentle in his wordings), I was furious. It was a totally unfair response to someone who loves writing and genuinely wanted to help.

I have been there, too, taking time away from my own writing to give feedback--and mine was always to people who sought me out asking for it--usually to be, at best, never acknowledged or, worse, slammed for having the temerity to not like/not understand the poem in question.

Tath is right. It's subjective. It's art. Who am I to say I understand painting better than you because I like Gaugin and you like Thomas Kinkaid? (Hmmm.) Well, I am educated in literature besides knowing what I like and I do think I know more--simply because I've read more about poetry--than some people. I don't say that to be high and mighty about it though I know some people interpret it that way. If my knowledge of the traditions of poetry--from my studies formal or informal--helps someone else, that's good right? If you don't think so or otherwise are bugged by feedback you won't get it from me. It's not a good use of either of our time. No hard feelings.

But.

If you don't want feedback and I praise someone else's poem who does, get over it. We're all grownups, right (even the monkey ). Just get over it.

And none of this would matter if we didn't get so hung up about votes. Why does anyone care about them? Why does anyone care if they're on that top list? Mine come and go from there--so what? They say nothing about the worth of my poems. One poem I wrote, titled "Nothing" was on the top list for a long time. I thought it was not a very good poem at all compared to others I've written. I never thought it's presence on that list said anything about its intrinsic worth.

Tath is right. (I hope you're listening Tath--I've said it twice now).

And Tongue Lasher or any other commenters--I meant what I said before. Don't waste your breath (or fingers, I guess) on trying to make me feel bad with low scores or negative comments. You can if you want, but it has no effect on me. If you say something ugly, I'll look at it and think "Can I learn anything from this that will make me a better writer?" If I can extract something useful from what you do or say I will, if I can't I WON'T CARE. It's about writing and learning to me. That's it.

Did I mention that I think Tath is right?

 

[annaswirls]

Since jim touched my YDD raw nerve, let me say this YDD may have been the best reviewer ever. Rare ability to get outside a narrowly defined area of what poetry is. Yeh, eve's comments may be a little short sometimes, but she has that ability also. I TRULY MORN THE LOSS OF YDD, and thank him for the handful that he left on mine.

I thought Jim was supporting YDD. I know I did, support him that is. I miss him. And Perks. And Jim even though he called me a name.

 

[Angeline]

I thought Jim was supporting YDD. I know I did, support him that is. I miss him. And Perks. And Jim even though he called me a name.

lol.

I miss them, too, Anna. I almost never agreed with Perks, but I love her and think she is a very talented poet with a critical eye for reviewing.

And I never got why people were so exercised about YDD. He gave some of the best feedback I ever saw here. Oh, I remember now--he was honest.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Re: It all seems a bit ironic

and maybe it is like a big pendulum, with the weight beginning to swing again.

In reading the comments made by Tongue Lasher, I couldn't help but think that TL was making the right point but with the wrong poets on the wrong poems. TL, if you look at a fairly recent posting of mine titled "Building" you will see a complimentary comment with constructive criticism provided by Eve. A comment she made a day or so before your first comment on her poems.

If you go through her poems you will find several similarly complimentary comments with constructive criticism from me. You will also see some others by someone called YDD.

I am not sure how long TL has been reading here, but about six months ago, shortly after the public comments feature was added here at Lit, the public comments were often used as a means of encouraging other poets with constructive criticism. Criticism that was received by some (especially Eve and a dozen or so others) as significant feedback and as a helpful tool to continuing improving our work. YDD and I seemed to trade the lead in public comments, with Eve, Angeline and a few others right there too.

Unfortunately, not everyone accepted this feedback as positive. On occasion the feedback may have seemed harsh, though certainly nowhere near the crapola statements that have been excreted of late. I voted a poem the way I thought it should be rated and then I explained why I voted that way, sometimes with recommendations or ideas they might consider for improvement. What followed was an onslaught of complaints and attacks in the forums and in public comments. YDD had the good sense to work under a name without any work posted, so he (I have always assumed YDD was a he) faced only the more public ostricism. I was a brave soul who commented from the same name I had my work posted to and from that time attracted my own personal unabombers who followed me not only in the poetry I posted, but also in the prose. Though I have a pretty good idea of who the people are, I decided not to stoop to their level and simply learned to trim a few low scores off each and everything I do to get a real gauge of my work.

A number of poets here came to the defense of YDD, me and several others that were caught up in the tumble. Eve and Lauren were two of the loudest voices who supported the people who where providing the criticism on the poetry, along with Angeline, Liar, Tath, Boo and a handful of others. I hung in for a while, but when I saw the votes on my work fall to nothing, I stopped commenting and withdrew from the New Poems review, withdrawing from the poetry scene altogether. YDD stuck it out longer, but left not too long after.

In recent months I returned and found that, as TL correctly indicates, there is a lot of backslapping going on here, and hey, if it is warranted, I think it's great. Unfortunately, I see a lot, a whole of lot backslapping on some pretty mediocre (at best) work. While I agree about what TL says, I think she is off base directing the comment at Eve and Lauren, two who have been the most vocal here supporting constructive criticism.

Yes, poets sometimes get didactic, we play some games with meanings, sometimes actually conceal what we are saying in the verbage we use. Sometimes it's a ruse, hiding inferior work, other times there is reason, perhaps very personal reason for the linguistic subtrifuge. I think, to automatically dismiss a poem that is not immediately understandable as inferior work is short sighted. You cheat the poet of his/her voice, but the reader cheats himself/herself too, you cheat yourself the experience of the complexities of the work.

More specifically, Eve's poem "Stereogram Seduction" initally had me spinning, wondering where she was coming from. Looking at the title, I spotted Stereogram and something clicked. Initially thinking that a stereogram was the old slotted cylinder inside which you spun the images, making them appear to move, but with a quick google I learned that Stereograms were those puzzles you look at, where looking at it a certain way a 3-D image appears. Her later mention of Magic Eye reinforces the image.

Suddenly the poem became very clear and I was blown away as each line carried me though the steps I take when I try to draw the 3-d image out of the jumble of pictures on the page. I joined Eve as the (strangely) nude 3-D images appeared and thought, yes, very sexy.

For some the poem may have been a simple drug trip in the kitchen, for me it was a well crafted poem with interesting phrasing that not only presented its message, it presented in a manner that physically made me a part of the poem. Poetry like that deserves the highest praise. It is poetry that hopefully won't just age here at literotica, it is poetry that deserves to land in some other publication.

I guess some good has come from the irony... I have seen one of the more vocal attackers of the constructive criticism actually working now to improve their poetry, using some of the very techniques and practices that he once ridiculed in this forum. I guess it was good someone finally got through.

And then there is Billy Collins... but that my friends, strangers and unabombers is a completely different story.

Forgive me for being even more long winded than Anna... It's been building up in me for some time.

Eve thank you for your continued support of my poems, reading and commenting... and criticising. Lauren thank you for Pessoa and the lights in the stars. Angeline... thank you for proving that the world is not all iambic, regardless of my continued scansion. Other readers, commenters and poets, thanks for the reads, comments and poems... I steal more than you know from you.


jim : )


PS... yeah, that was a bit too dramatic. just call me a drama queen like Eve. I do take small satisfaction that my daughter is a much bigger Drama Queen than I am .

Damn you, Jim. I came online decided to make a long-winded post about all this, but you already found the words to express my thoughts. In the over than two and a half years that I have been here, there was only one constant (besides Eve ): there is always someone complaining about the criticism they receive.

Since the public comments were introduced, I only did the new poetry rounds for a couple of months, and when that happened, I made it a point of honour to leave a public comment on every poem posted that day, whether I mentioned it in the thread or not. I remember leaving ratings of everything between 25 and 100% along with comments that always pointed something I had enjoyed and (almost) always included a criticism. Maybe it was my wording, or maybe it was that I only did it for a short time, but I never had to face the problems Jim and YDD had. Whenever I leave comments (admittedly a rare occurrence these days, because my life has taken a turn to the busier), I still maintain that rule, though. I don't praise gratuitously, and I'm particularly harsh with those I already know capable of the highest standards, and the ratings left with the comments always reflect that.

As for my thoughts on poetry and understanding, I already left them in my Interact thread that is still in the first page of this forum for anyone interested to read.

Thank you, Jim, for posting this, and more importantly for all the work you did in the first half of the year, being an objectively harsh, honest critic. You're truly a poet's poet.

 

[twelveoone]

I thought Jim was supporting YDD. I know I did, support him that is. I miss him. And Perks. And Jim even though he called me a name.

yeh, I was feelin left out, maybe he was refering to me as "handfull" most of my managers do.
Jim's a good guy, like his work.
I do have a raw nerve about YDD, miss him, so much. His comments were an education in it self.

 

[WickedEve]

I thought Jim was supporting YDD. I know I did, support him that is. I miss him. And Perks. And Jim even though he called me a name.

YDD was awesome and when his comments ceased, it was a true loss to this community. But hey, some of the whiners (usually those who look like they write poetry with the ass crack of their brain) got what they wanted.

 

[annaswirls]

YDD was awesome and when his comments ceased, it was a true loss to this community. But hey, some of the whiners (usually those who look like they write poetry with the ass crack of their brain) got what they wanted.

yeah and the poets that bitched are not even around anymore, are they? well maybe just under new names.


I begged him to stay, in private, but never heard back.

waah!

I think we need to give him an end of the year award

 

[WickedEve]

yeah and the poets that bitched are not even around anymore, are they? well maybe just under new names.


I begged him to stay, in private, but never heard back.

waah!

I think we need to give him an end of the year award

I wonder if ever reads the threads here? He probably moved on to some nice poetry site where people appreciate him.

 

[tungtied2u]

So, what have we learned in this thread?

The monkey showed wisdom and restraint--he's so zen. He's so cool.


Tath is right.

We're all grownups, right (even the monkey ).

Tath is right. (I hope you're listening Tath--I've said it twice now).

Did I mention that I think Tath is right?

Tath, I thought I'd frame this and give it to you as a Christmas Prezzie!

 

[CharleyH]

Well, here is a dilemma. While I have yet to review (soon to make a brief appearance to review) the new poems, I have had two recent experiences with trolls, one of whom I know and the other whom I do not.

Having critiqued a story recently, I was met by an insane individual who completely misunderstood what I was saying. So much so that the person not only resorted to an essay length PC on what a crap cunt I am, but bombed and left personally directed PC's regarding how crap I am on nearly everything I have written, posted several times on a thread about how crap I am, and PM'd to reiterate how crap I am just in case I did not get it. It was laughable, but at the same time actually disheartening to know those types of people are more plenitful than I imagined. Similarly, I had commented on only several new poems the other day (positive comments), and suddenly all my poems took a mysteriously sharp dip.

So, I am a bit concerned about commenting on over 300 new poems, since the possibility of hitting up freaks is a thousand times more likely. And after reading Jim's post, I ask myself will all of my work be over-doused with napalm?

I mean it ends up being a lot of extra, needless work for Laurel, and for me to have to email a sweep form for everything I write.

Should I create and review under a new alt. name? Is there a benefit in this, or should I just hold high and post under my own name?

 

[WickedEve]

Well, here is a dilemma. While I have yet to review (soon to make a brief appearance to review) the new poems, I have had two recent experiences with trolls, one of whom I know and the other whom I do not.

Having critiqued a story recently, I was met by an insane individual who completely misunderstood what I was saying. So much so that the person not only resorted to an essay length PC on what a crap cunt I am, but bombed and left personally directed PC's regarding how crap I am on nearly everything I have written, posted several times on a thread about how crap I am, and PM'd to reiterate how crap I am just in case I did not get it. It was laughable, but at the same time actually disheartening to know those types of people are more plenitful than I imagined. Similarly, I had commented on only several new poems the other day (positive comments), and suddenly all my poems took a mysteriously sharp dip.

So, I am a bit concerned about commenting on over 300 new poems, since the possibility of hitting up freaks is a thousand times more likely. And after reading Jim's post, I ask myself will all of my work be over-doused with napalm?

I mean it ends up being a lot of extra, needless work for Laurel, and for me to have to email a sweep form for everything I write.

Should I create and review under a new alt. name? Is there a benefit in this, or should I just hold high and post under my own name?

Oh, you poor girl! Recently, I've cut back on giving newbie feedback, unless I can honestly say something like, "It's a good poem." or "Great, but it could be better if you do this one simple thing."

I know tongue lasher was saying that many of us seem to comment on each other's work. I think I know why. One, we are familiar with each other's work, therefore, we know what we like. Two, we know each other well enough to know that we are not going to attack each other or dish out vengeful 1s.

Personally, I'm getting a little sick of all these "poets" screaming and harassing me when I say something as benign as "I like it, but line breaks would help." or "I think if you changed word a to word b it would be a great improvement." So, F them all. I'm not going to be miss goody goody giving giver all the time. I'm tired of being crapped on every time I offer a kind, constructive comment. pant, pant, pant, lol

 

[jthserra]

YDD???

Since jim touched my YDD raw nerve, let me say this YDD may have been the best reviewer ever. Rare ability to get outside a narrowly defined area of what poetry is. Yeh, eve's comments may be a little short sometimes, but she has that ability also. I TRULY MORN THE LOSS OF YDD, and thank him for the handful that he left on mine.

I too miss YDD, and I can only praise him as I did in the poem I wrote "I Know YDD". From the PMs I exchanged with him (and again I have always assumed YDD to be male) we seemed to share similar views regarding poetry and critique.


jim : )

 

[Tathagata]

Tath, I thought I'd frame this and give it to you as a Christmas Prezzie!

Well you know Ange is just saying that so I'll continue to be her friend ( not to mention her hot latin cabana boy)

Mi caliente chica bonita

I don't care about being right or wrong
My first reaction was to say who cares about this shit?
Just fuckin write..and the people who are suppose to get it will..
And if you get feedback that you don't like...don't pay any attention if you dont want to.
It's really simple.
I've worked with people through PM's and email.
I used to send a preview of my stuff to a few people and say...what do you think??
they'd give me great ideas that, in my mind, would make the poem better in many ways...and what happens??
I submit it like that and someone else isn't happy with a line, or doesn't get a line break or whatever,
No One is ever going to write anything that Everybody likes.
so........
get used to it and do what you FEEL expresses you best.
Learn along the way, but don't take what Anyone says as gospel.

I'm sure she won't mind if I mention this but Tara, whom we all love and respect, used to pre edit a lot of my stuff.
she'd suggest 5 changes, I'd agree with 3
the other two weren't ME
not that they were wrong..I just don't talk that way.
and she always understood that.
That's why I'll say again...it's all opinion and you will always have people who will say " I'd have written it this way"
and I'm always tempted to say
" But you didn't"

Anyway thats it
I have nothing more to add
there are people here who like my stuff and people who don't...and it will be the same way if and when I ever get published or not.

 

[doormouse]

Trollin' Trollin' Trollin'
though his head is swollen
keep crapola flowin'
then Hide

Okay, read most of the thread, but had to come back to this one

hahahahahhahaaaaaaaa


lol

 

[CharleyH]

Personally, I'm getting a little sick of all these "poets" screaming and harassing me when I say something as benign as "I like it, but line breaks would help." or "I think if you changed word a to word b it would be a great improvement." So, F them all.

So, does this mean I can post reviews under your name, then?

 

[WickedEve]

So, does this mean I can post reviews under your name, then?

NO! lol

 

[CharleyH]

NO! lol

Damn. Well it was worth the attempt.

How 'bout all reviews under the umbrella "Unknown Critic." AV with paper bag, of course.

 

[WickedEve]

Damn. Well it was worth the attempt.

How 'bout all reviews under the umbrella "Unknown Critic." AV with paper bag, of course.

I'm in the process of commenting now. I'm offering suggestions to those I know will appreciate them enough to at least consider them.
And what's this about avs with paper bags? I've had this ongoing problem. Some posters seem to think I had a bag on my head in one av. I didn't! It was my hair. Hair!