How Evil Can BDSM Get

[Lancecastor]

I don't see any of it as a struggle between "good & evil".


That's what I think.

Lance

 

[A Desert Rose]

Art, she has never apologized to me. And I had never attacked her. However, I have now had enough of this entire episode and of her.

Rose

edited:

This post is incorrect and it was brought to my attention that I was apologized to. I stand corrected and offer my apologies for making this mistake.

 

[Ishmael]

It's a sexual practice. Nothing more, nothing less. Like most other aspects of life the difference between 'good' and 'evil' is in the motivation of the participants.

Are the motives to push the limits of sensuality? Or merely to produce pain, humiliation, or manipulation. The infliction of pain for the sake of inflicting pain could be considered 'evil'. It is a one way transference of power. It is taken, not given. The same might be said of a manipulative sub whose goal is to derive benfits outside of the 'scenes' by various actions on their part.

In any inter-personal relationship the actions of one party who has a hidden agenda might very well be considered 'evil'. The other party is being manipulated for purposes outside of the BDSM relationship, and those purposes are not consensual. It perverts the realtionship.

My opinion anyway.

Ishmael

 

[Angelofsex]

It's a sexual practice. Nothing more, nothing less. Like most other aspects of life the difference between 'good' and 'evil' is in the motivation of the participants.

Are the motives to push the limits of sensuality? Or merely to produce pain, humiliation, or manipulation. The infliction of pain for the sake of inflicting pain could be considered 'evil'. It is a one way transference of power. It is taken, not given. The same might be said of a manipulative sub whose goal is to derive benfits outside of the 'scenes' by various actions on their part.

In any inter-personal relationship the actions of one party who has a hidden agenda might very well be considered 'evil'. The other party is being manipulated for purposes outside of the BDSM relationship, and those purposes are not consensual. It perverts the realtionship.

My opinion anyway.

Ishmael

Thank you Ishmel for your opinion.. That is all I every wanted was the opinions on the subject....for people to understand......We do have lurkers.....that does wonder about it.

 

[Moyds_jewel]

evil

is what society agrees that it is.
reality is what society agrees that it is.

there will always be those of us on the edge (not THAT edge) who don't agree with the majority definition... and we will STILL be able to see and define an evil.

it's a matter of perspective, of our own personal and societal filters, it's even a matter of where you live on the planet.

semantics. if only we didn't need words to communicate...

 

[Angelofsex]

Re: evil

is what society agrees that it is.
reality is what society agrees that it is.

there will always be those of us on the edge (not THAT edge) who don't agree with the majority definition... and we will STILL be able to see and define an evil.

it's a matter of perspective, of our own personal and societal filters, it's even a matter of where you live on the planet.

semantics. if only we didn't need words to communicate...

Thank you Moyds.....I love the last part......didn't need words to communicate.

 

[bored1]

Everyones idea of evil is different, to me bd/sm is not evil, it is the alternative to what many consider to be normal. Anything that is nonconsensual is evil.Just my .02 cents

 

[zipman]

A response to Artful

Artful,

I respect that you have the right to your opinion as I have the right to mine, which I know you won't deny. It is understandable that you have posted as you have in this thread. But I feel you have not presented a very objective view of events. So here is how I see what has happened here, in this forum over the last few months, and especially the last few weeks.

How EVIL can BDSM get?
<snip>
As one example:

Dream, (as with all of us), has offended many, but has done so in a burst of raw emotion, (NOT,...as a planned or calculated course). Her pain was splashed across Literotica, and not just at this Forum. Was she justified in doing so? In my opinion,...NO!

Ahh, but this isn't a one time event Artful. It has been going on for months. How many posts that Dream made were about BDSM and how many were just opportunities to deify you. How many times did she disregard the topic of a thread to use to further glorify you in this forum. I think it is great that Dream feels that way about you. The issue is how appropriate was her behavior. And here it is time for you to take some responsibility for this as well. You could have put a stop to this at any time, and you chose not to. Why you made this choice I do not know. I assume you enjoyed it, at the rest of our expense. Over the last two weeks it has even been worse. It has been nothing short of disruptive.

After she had made apologies that most never accepted, I forbade her to post in the BDSM Forum, for a time, (in order to let the flames die down).

Do you really think Dream has much credibility in this forum? That would be rather naive of you. How many break-ups and make-ups must we be forced to endure. You were the one who started it with your thread "Some Couples Can and Some Couples Can't." Well, Art, perhaps "Some Couples Shouldn't" You and Dream plaster your relationship all over this place and then you annoyed at the reaction your behavior prompts. My question is when you knew that Dream's constant glorification of you was distracting many people in this forum, why didn't you forbid her to continue? Such a command would have mollified a lot of the anger and hostility that Dreams repeated posts about you caused.

How each of us deal with these issues, is a moral responsibility. How we deal with it, can be EVIL or GOOD. I ask each of you to look, not only at Dream's mistakes, but also within yourselves.

I don't think EVIL and GOOD are the right lens to view this drama. In fact, I think it just sensationalizes and polarizes the issues. Human behavior is not black or white, but the many shades of gray inbetween. So Dream is good and we are evil? If that's what you want to believe, that's your choice Art, but I think Dream is nowhere near as innocent as you believe. Was it "Good" that she posted pms from me on two seperate threads? She knows the rules Art. She broke them just last week when she did the SAME THING to you! And I reported them for you Art, as a friend. Not to get Dream in trouble but to spare you the surprise and disappointment of seeing a personal message displayed as if it were a post. Her behavior is not only a violation of the rules here but an ethical betrayal. I wouldn't call it evil but I would definitely call it "morally reprehensible."

What moral justification do you have for prolonging a painful event. What justification do you have, as an individual, to continue raking her over the "coals"?

See the above paragraph and then talk to me about moral justification. If you want to buy into Dream's song and dance, that's your business, but please don't be surprised when the rest of us don't. What moral justification did she have to repeatedly flame the Dom/mes of the BDSM forum all over the playground?
She made her bed with her behavior, and it seems she doesn't much like sleeping in it.

What justification do any of you have, in responding to a *troll*, (whether or not they are trolling with a valid ID)?

How many new FUNNY threads will you start, to covertly make fun of someone who has left the BDSM Forum? Two wrongs do not make a right, they never have, and they never will.

How many new FUNNY posts, will you make covertly as well as overtly, to ridicule one, who no longer posts in this Forum? How many new HATEFUL private messages, will each individual continue to send to Dream?

Have you seen all the pm's she sent? Perhaps you would have been better able to restrain your anger at being flamed all over the place. I for one, think that Dream uses her problems to deny any level of accountability for her actions. If so, where has her accountability been for posting my pms? Were they nice - no, they weren't. Were they a justifiable response to her posts in the Aussies and Midwesterners threads - I think so. Had she not flamed the Dom/mes of this forum, repeatedly on these other threads, I think everything would have died down by now. She needs to take some responsibility for continuing this. And to be honest Art, as her Dom, so do you. If you commanded her not to post in the BDSM forum, you could have done the same thing when she started flaming the rest of us. You chose to sit on the sidelines and hope for the best. This is the result.

Is this the way to popularity? To jump on a wounded prey, to play with a mouse as a cat might? Dream has no defense, she was wrong in what she did, she attempted apology and, right or wrong, each of you had occasion to accept it, or reject it.

ALL of you who have participated in your own BRAND of FUN, (or vengeance), do so at the risk of your own respectability. You who have participated in raising yourselves to greater heights, by lowering or demeaning Dream, have erred mightily.

The bandwagon once again has been filled with piranhas, knashing their teeth over prey, which no longer posts in this Forum. Much the same as some did, after cymbidia and others left this Forum.

"Wounded prey?" You have to be kidding! She is not a martyr Art, although she plays one here on Lit. I am not buying her martyr song for one second. Why she feels the need to bash others as she does is not the sign of sainthood. I think you misunderstand the issue here. It is not about rising to heights by bashing Dream. Each of us that posts negatively about her lowers our own respectability. We know that. But the more important point is that the reason that we do it, knowing full well the consequences of doing it, is a clear reflection of how utterly annoyed all of us are at the way she has used this forum, and at the constant innuendos that she makes about us.

EVIL? Yes there is EVIL amongst us. EVIL? Yes there is EVIL within us. It is in ME also,...but I do my BEST to control it,...I try to not let it guide me in what I say and do. Thanks for the thread Angel.

I said it before but it bears repeating. This is not about Good and Evil, and I think you made a mistake addressing this issue in this thread. It is about human behavior and group dynamics. It is about how to interact with others and about mastering our own emotions. Apparently, Dream is the only one with an excuse for acting emotionally. I guess the rest of us are just evil, cold and calculating.

As a person, I like you Art. I think you are a good man with good intent. But I do not think you have been objective here. And I do not feel that you have taken responsibility for the role you have played, or lack thereof. I am sorry if this has been a painful experience for you. And for your sake, I do hope it is worth it.

(JMHO),...but it's mine,...and I own it.

This is JMHO and I too, own it!

My sincere apologies tor the hijack AngelofSex!

 

[Ishmael]

Well put Zip.

Ishmael

 

[A Desert Rose]

May I take a moment to explain some things?

The reference Art made about threads that were intended to make fun of anyone here, is not true. The point of my goofy threads was intended to actually make fun of US in this forum for continually posting to every single thread in regard to *one* particular person.

Art, you and your choice of sub are not the center of the universe, to use a Lance phrase. It was not ever intended to be directed at either of you, but at those of us in this forum who could not seem to stop posting to those threads. Yes, I made light of the situation and yes, I used myself to make fun of. I was trying to redirect the attention off of this other unpleasant topic. It failed and as a result you took it personally. Again, that was not my intent.

You will note, Art that I only one time posted on a thread devoted to your sub. She snubbed my attempt at assistance and I have refused to post to those threads again. I have also never pm'd her regarding this mess.

I take offense to having my posts copied and pasted in other forums. I have never copied and pasted your subs words and placed them anywhere. I take offense to unknown and unkind people from other forums coming here and telling us what we are doing wrong. I have never gone to the forums she frequents and said unkind things about her.

I have nothing to apologize for. I have no control over what you do or what your sub does or what others here do. I was only attempting to change the subject and give others a different avenue to post to besides your problems and your subs discontent.

Thank you for you attention.

 

[Ishmael]

May I take a moment to explain some things?

The reference Art made about threads that were intended to make fun of anyone here, is not true. The point of my goofy threads was intended to actually make fun of US in this forum for continually posting to every single thread in regard to *one* particular person.

Art, you and your choice of sub are not the center of the universe, to use a Lance phrase. It was not ever intended to be directed at either of you, but at those of us in this forum who could not seem to stop posting to those threads. Yes, I made light of the situation and yes, I used myself to make fun of. I was trying to redirect the attention off of this other unpleasant topic. It failed and as a result you took it personally. Again, that was not my intent.

You will note, Art that I only one time posted on a thread devoted to your sub. She snubbed my attempt at assistance and I have refused to post to those threads again. I have also never pm'd her regarding this mess.

I take offense to having my posts copied and pasted in other forums. I have never copied and pasted your subs words and placed them anywhere. I take offense to unknown and unkind people from other forums coming here and telling us what we are doing wrong. I have never gone to the forums she frequents and said unkind things about her.

I have nothing to apologize for. I have no control over what you do or what your sub does or what others here do. I was only attempting to change the subject and give others a different avenue to post to besides your problems and your subs discontent.

Thank you for you attention.

Quite.

Ishmael

 

[SexyChele]

Art, you and your choice of sub are not the center of the universe, to use a Lance phrase. It was not ever intended to be directed at either of you, but at those of us in this forum who could not seem to stop posting to those threads. Yes, I made light of the situation and yes, I used myself to make fun of. I was trying to redirect the attention off of this other unpleasant topic. It failed and as a result you took it personally. Again, that was not my intent.

<highjack>

Rose, you under-estimate your attempts. You were indeed sucessful. Well, at least the "goofy threads", as you call them, helped keep my attention from those causing a stir.

Just wanted you to know that.

My apologies, everyone, for the highjack ~

</highjack>

 

[A Desert Rose]

Thank you SexyChele

I know that you and several others understood what I was attempting to do. ~smile~

 

[MissTaken]

Yep, DR, especially after you explained it publicly, I realized your attempt at moving on. (Or was it in a pm? No matter. )

Now, I wish everyone else could just move forward.

This thing is getting very flippin' stale.

 

[Siren]

 

[Angelofsex]

There is the freedom of speach. I thank everyone who did apologies for the highjacking.....To me it is a choice of topic change for the minute.......but please enough let it fly away.

 

[WriterDom]

How many of us know someone who has been date raped? Does that make dating evil?

I think you’ll find the bdsm community is as a whole, very concerned about safety and taking care of our own. But we are no better or worse than the general population that we draw from. And it’s hard to change the public’s perception because safe, sane, and consensual doesn’t make the same headlines as a serial killer, or kidnapper.

 

[Pure]

SIMPLE SOLUTION

Just so's people know, why not re name the BDSM forum the

"Artful and Dream's life and problems forum." or in the lingo
"ARTFUL AND DREAMS LIFE AND PROBLEMS FORUM."

Similarly all
threads could be re-labeled "More on Arful and Dream". Then the many folks--besides the principals-- that want to discuss these issues-- Lance, Zip, etc.-- could have a happy niche. The rest of the world could carry on our business elsewhere.

 

[Lancecastor]

Pure, do you have a positive suggestion?

Hey, how about the ADSM Forum?

That pretty much nails it.

If you have something new to add, Pure, how about starting a thread?

I have several here if you'd prefer to bump one up....the Spankateria was a fun one....

Lance

SIMPLE SOLUTION

Just so's people know, why not re name the BDSM forum the

"Artful and Dream's life and problems forum." or in the lingo
"ARTFUL AND DREAMS LIFE AND PROBLEMS FORUM."

Similarly all
threads could be re-labeled "More on Arful and Dream". Then the many folks--besides the principals-- that want to discuss these issues-- Lance, Zip, etc.-- could have a happy niche. The rest of the world could carry on our business elsewhere.

 

[Richard49]

You know what they say,............


It aint over til the fat lady sings.

I am singing

 

[SexyChele]

I am singing

I never knew you were a fat lady! My, you do hide that well, you know?

 

[Richard49]

I never knew you were a fat lady! My, you do hide that well, you know?

Thank you

Now back to the question/topic of the thread

 

[Lancecastor]

She sings!