How to be a MAN

[GlasDomDaddy]

Oh, sorry - short for ToPleaseHim.

Ahhh The local language

But yeah, it can be a bit rough to discuss some topics these days - online or off. That’s why I was somewhat reluctant about even trying.

I barely talk about it to be fair. The same reasons; it gets ugly too often. In this thread though.. the young fella just seems to be looking for what I would have benefitted from if I'd gotten it much younger.

But maybe I've got a hammer and everything looks like a nail.

Yes, I think there are people who need to hear it and I think it can be useful.
And the line between cliché and profound is perhaps just a matter of perspective.

It's a dumb thing but you know what it reminds me of?
The movie Demolition man when Stallone's character doesn't know how to use the shells and the other characters laugh as it's such a mundane thing for them.

That’s part of why I wanted to speak up actually about not wanting to throw him in the same group as Tate.

I applaud that; even if you didn't/don't think Jordan is a good influence you still recognise that they're not even close.

Yes, I can see that too but I can also see him being drawn into that.

Can you explain why? or it more like a hunch?

There’s a woman here who has written a lot of great stuff on ethics etc.
Then she wrote some opinion piece that caught the eye of some far-right groups and got a lot of attention and a huge following.
At some point she did step on the brakes and she has written since about how she was carried away by the huge following and the almost godlike treatment she got there for a while.

Ahh. I've been there *sort of*. I had twitter and I got into it with someone over something they said, next thing I know I'm gaining followers calling themselves "red pilled" and I've got a load of upset socialists (I think they say leftists in the states, but I'm not sure exactly) trying to destroy my career.

So yeah, radicalization is a thing, both for those on the influencing side and the influenced side.
And once you watch some Peterson, there are others who are going to show up in your feed and while I think the OP seems to have their head screwed on right I can understand why some would hesitate to recommend Peterson.

You're correct about this. I recommended Peterson to a friend who was struggling with relationships. He took the lessons and everything was going great. A few months later he had started watching some guru who was convincing him that women were different species and he had to "manipulate their psychology" to gain success. I managed to steer him back but yeah... that happened like you said, bald man in sunglasses appearing on the feed.

 

[RoperTrace]

My dad died when I was in middle school. I grew up as an anime nerd in the 2000s. I am now obese, full of excuses, and probably 20-40 years from death. I am ontologically, by definition, a man, but not manly, and don't "man up."

How does one become a man? Physically, mentally, emotionally, intellectually, how does man-boy fashion himself into husband or father material, and not merely stumble into such relationships causing permanent psychological trauma to his loved ones? Men, do you have any books to suggest or people to imitate? Women, what do you look for in a man to know he's trustworthy?

Do you have a trusted uncle, brother, cousin, or friend who could be a mentor to you? Someone you respect and would like to emulate in their roles as men? The obesity problem has to be addressed with a clean diet, and movement. Walking is something you can do immediately, daily, outdoors, without fail. Start small and build up to mile(s) every day, no excuses. If you're able to stick to a walking routine, you can start adding some other exercises eventually. Losing some weight does wonders for your mental outlook. Walking in public places, where others walk, or run is a great way to meet people as well.
Maybe join a walking/exercise forum where you can post your progress, and you will receive a ton of support. Nobody on those forums will ridicule you.
What kind of job or recreational interests do you have? Could you develop those to make yourself into the man that others would find more interesting? People(men) with strong interests will often attract like-minded people. Developing one of your skills usually makes you more interesting by itself. People take notice.
Keep us posted on your progress, or steps you've taken to improve your situation.

 

[J_Bone]

While I cannot speak for all women, I am a woman with a lot of female friends. I concur with the advice in the thread to NOT listen to Jordan Peterson or Andrew Tate. Toxic masculinity is not something to aspire to, it is something to avoid. A man can be masculine without being toxic. A man can be dominant even without being toxic. My current SO, the one I hope to be with for the rest of my life, is an amazing example of being dominant and he’s quite liberal. My ex was both, too.

There’s a lot of great advice in this thread, but I just wanted to add my voice to disagree with this particular brand of advice.

I so wanted to stay out of this thread just because I knew what it would evolve into, which it has, unfortunately for the OP. But this post begs so many questions.

So is a conservative man or one who holds some conservative values toxic by definition? You mentioned your amazing dude who's dominant but also quite liberal. That's why I ask. Is any sort of conservative man toxic just by definition? And if so, what are the parameters specifically that would make it so? Just seems so broad-brushed and blind, but most things are nowadays.

 

[IrisAlthea]

Can you explain why? or it more like a hunch?

I can’t look into his head, so I can obviously only judge by what I observe and I’ve already said that I spend limited time and energy on said observation.
Hunch doesn’t cover it either though.

I’d say that some of it is his behaviour on twitter etc with comments that seem tailored to draw cheer from certain groups and annoy others. Getting it that wrong/right is unlikely to be coincidental.

Some of it is as I wrote before, seeing others doing the same as he does.

I mean, it’s understandable too, wanting to promote your writing and getting your message out there is a reasonable motivation.
It’s just a bit like standing in a huge wave and thinking that you can can control it and not be influenced by it.
Some surf better than others but everyone gets tumbled eventually.

next thing I know I'm gaining followers calling themselves "red pilled"

I’ve met those. Adorable bunch.

Usually not too fond of people trying to get at people based on disagreements online either though.

So is a conservative man or one who holds some conservative values toxic by definition?

I don’t think it’s possible to answer that without having a common definition of conservative.

 

[muddie684]

So, here's what I've done so far:

(1) Create an online checklist so I can check off (on my phone) that I've done the basic daily things I need to do. This is in keeping with Atul Gawande's "The Checklist Manifesto: How to Get Things Right". This helps me take my pills.
(2) Park my car at a local strip mall forcing me to walk to and from it before and after work.
(3) I have a nutritionist and am following her advice to increase proteins and stay under 40g of carbs per meal (due to diabetes).
(4) I've restarted doing yard work (which I hate) for my mom. I stopped doing it when I started working weekends. She can afford to hire somebody else, but it seems an important to serve family. It's a humbling and uncomfortable act to struggle with nature, too.
(5) I've been calling extended family, cousins, aunts, uncles and talking with them. Trying to find ways to support them. This may be a distraction, though.
(6) I give to charities, but need to start doing fieldwork for them in order to train myself, probably.

I don't have any uncles I particularly admire, although I probably should because at least one of them is loaded with achievements. It may be pride or envy that prevents me from giving him the credit he's due. There used to be a men's group at church but it closed during COVID and I haven't gone consistently since then. We would mostly talk about bible-related subjects rather than man-related subjects.

I respect Jordan Peterson, but don't take what he says as gospel. On the other hand, there's several people online who advocate for what seems to be a destructive form of masculinity, alpha males playing the field, but that's not who I want to be, so I avoid them.

Thanks everybody for contributing. Please, keep the advice coming. Also, the diversion talking about scotch whiskey made me laugh.

 

[IrisAlthea]

Sounds like you are doing really good things for yourself and others. Cudos!

I don't have any uncles I particularly admire, although I probably should because at least one of them is loaded with achievements. It may be pride or envy that prevents me from giving him the credit he's due.

It may be, but I wouldn’t say that I necessarily admire people solely based on outer achievements.

For me it’s a lot about how they achieve things and under what cirumstances.
Parking your car at a strip mall to get the extra exercise every day, come rain or shine and tired from work might actually be more admirable than using the flashy inhouse gym at home or work, even if the latter might give you the kind of results/achievements that can be better seen at a glance.
(Not saying it gets easy just because of the inhouse facilities. Just easier. )

I've restarted doing yard work (which I hate) for my mom. I stopped doing it when I started working weekends. She can afford to hire somebody else, but it seems an important to serve family. It's a humbling and uncomfortable act to struggle with nature, too.

Yard work and cleaning and organizing really dirty, disorganized stuff are actually pretty good (but yes, tedious) things, because you get rather instant, visible results. That will give you a bit extra dopamine, just like crossing off an item on you check list will.
The people who lived in our house before, had bramble and raspberries on one side of the garde, that tend to try coming back through what is planted there now.
Whenever it’s time to fight them, I end up looking like a survivor of the zombie wars but the flower beds look great and I feel like a winner - even if I know by now that it’s just the battle and not the war I won.

 

[GlasDomDaddy]

I have a nutritionist and am following her advice to increase proteins and stay under 40g of carbs per meal (due to diabetes).

If you need any help with diet or recipes then shoot me a message; I used to diet on 40g of carbs per day when I was competing in Bodybuilding... I got pretty good at making things not taste like sand.

I've restarted doing yard work (which I hate) for my mom. I stopped doing it when I started working weekends. She can afford to hire somebody else, but it seems an important to serve family. It's a humbling and uncomfortable act to struggle with nature, too.

This is bigger than you think, yard work is a good metaphor for a lot of things in life. It feels great to finish it, even when you know that it'll need done again later.

She could hire someone, but she her big handsome boy is there. Whether she expresses it or not, it will warm her heart every time you do it.

(5) I've been calling extended family, cousins, aunts, uncles and talking with them. Trying to find ways to support them. This may be a distraction, though.
(6) I give to charities, but need to start doing fieldwork for them in order to train myself, probably.

I think these are both great, but is there anything you need to do for yourself first?

A lot of people turn to altruism the distract from their own problems... it's the best distraction you could choose, but you know... does your bed need made? or is your laundry piling up? (don't be ashamed if your mom does your laundry; I understand it's task they often resist giving up)

I don't have any uncles I particularly admire, although I probably should because at least one of them is loaded with achievements. It may be pride or envy that prevents me from giving him the credit he's due. There used to be a men's group at church but it closed during COVID and I haven't gone consistently since then. We would mostly talk about bible-related subjects rather than man-related subjects.

There's a pretty balanced group of men in this thread; we don't all agree with one another but I'm sure we'd each offer you an opinion or an ear (or eyes I guess, since we're reading). Bit tricky though, since some conversations draw heat from people who don't understand the issues. My DMs are open and I think the other guys here would say the same.

RE: Pride and Envy. I used to suffer from this; I struggled to tell the difference between competition and adversary. If your uncle has achieved much but doesn't boast or use his achievements to belittle others then he is a good example of a competitive man and he's worthy of admiration. If he is a narcissist who does belittle others though, then he's just a competent narcissist.

You probably heard about this at the church mens group but Humility makes the difference. A find out from a fool that he killed a dragon, you find out from others when a knight killed a dragon.

I respect Jordan Peterson, but don't take what he says as gospel. On the other hand, there's several people online who advocate for what seems to be a destructive form of masculinity, alpha males playing the field, but that's not who I want to be, so I avoid them.

Never take anything as gospel, everyone is flawed in some sense.

It's kinda dumb, but one immediate test I apply is the sunglasses test. If he's wearing sunglasses indoors then he full of s

Thanks everybody for contributing. Please, keep the advice coming. Also, the diversion talking about scotch whiskey made me laugh.

I'm glad you replied and I hope it helped. For what it's worth, this post makes me believe that you're on your way up.

 

[RoperTrace]

So, here's what I've done so far:

(1) Create an online checklist so I can check off (on my phone) that I've done the basic daily things I need to do. This is in keeping with Atul Gawande's "The Checklist Manifesto: How to Get Things Right". This helps me take my pills.
(2) Park my car at a local strip mall forcing me to walk to and from it before and after work.
(3) I have a nutritionist and am following her advice to increase proteins and stay under 40g of carbs per meal (due to diabetes).
(4) I've restarted doing yard work (which I hate) for my mom. I stopped doing it when I started working weekends. She can afford to hire somebody else, but it seems an important to serve family. It's a humbling and uncomfortable act to struggle with nature, too.
(5) I've been calling extended family, cousins, aunts, uncles and talking with them. Trying to find ways to support them. This may be a distraction, though.
(6) I give to charities, but need to start doing fieldwork for them in order to train myself, probably.

I don't have any uncles I particularly admire, although I probably should because at least one of them is loaded with achievements. It may be pride or envy that prevents me from giving him the credit he's due. There used to be a men's group at church but it closed during COVID and I haven't gone consistently since then. We would mostly talk about bible-related subjects rather than man-related subjects.

I respect Jordan Peterson, but don't take what he says as gospel. On the other hand, there's several people online who advocate for what seems to be a destructive form of masculinity, alpha males playing the field, but that's not who I want to be, so I avoid them.

Thanks everybody for contributing. Please, keep the advice coming. Also, the diversion talking about scotch whiskey made me laugh.

Wow, I didn't expect this tbh. I'm impressed and this is a great start. Maybe try reaching out to that accomplished uncle, if he doesn't show any interest, then nothing lost. On the other hand, he may also be impressed by your self-actualization. If you get a little over-whelmed with your multi-pronged approach to reaching your goal(s), check out the short book called The One Thing, it may be useful. Keep us posted.

 

[Nicefella]

The first question you need to answer is what do you think a man is. You mention four things, but you must have some idea of what kind of man you want to be before you'll be able to work on becoming that man. It isn't necessary to have a father to grow up being a man.

This will sound harsh, but it's meant to help. I've had a lot of similar conversations during performance reviews with employees over the last several decades.

First, and probably most important, is to take personal responsibility for what you are and what you do. If you're obese, nobody caused that but you and nobody can fix it except you. The same goes for any other character faults you might think you have that keep you from being what you consider to be a man. People make excuses in order to relive them of the responsibility for things they cause. You're right in that excuses are something children do. Adults do not, or at least adults who understand that to be successful you change the things you can and learn to live with the things you can't change. It's time to analyze what happened and control your life by changing the things you can. By honestly understanding your failings, you'll be able to figure out a way to not continue the practice.

As for the rest, there is no absolute measurement of any mental ability, emotion, or intellect that defines a man. We all fall where we fall in the bell curve of humanity. Being a man is to recognize how you are, what you can do, and what you can't do. Do what you can do, and learn to do what you can't. Emotions are not something you can learn, but emotions can be kept in check if you stop to think about what's causing that emotion before opening your mouth or taking an action you will later regret.

The last part of being a man is to respect others for how they are, what they can do, and what they can't do.

I can tell you from experience that no man, no matter how manly he is, is prepared to be a husband or father. We all think we are, but soon understand that we're not. Life is a constantly changing experience that requires constant changes in a man and a woman. Any man who is considered to be a man, would accept that fact and change his actions as required.

There aren't any specifics here, but in reality, there aren't any. You just have to figure out who you want to be and then work hard to become that man.

This. A million times over. Read this. I just did. And I’ll copy and paste this. Thanks @ronde

 

[ToPleaseHim]

Love the update @muddie684!!

 

[Athalia]

So is a conservative man or one who holds some conservative values toxic by definition? You mentioned your amazing dude who's dominant but also quite liberal. That's why I ask. Is any sort of conservative man toxic just by definition? And if so, what are the parameters specifically that would make it so? Just seems so broad-brushed and blind, but most things are nowadays.

That's an interesting point. Part of what makes a man attractive to me is when he obviously respects women... not by putting them on pedestals and idealizing them as men did in the "Old South," but by valuing the things I value, and at least accepting my viewpoint as a valid one and acknowledging my right to have that viewpoint. I don't see much of that in what passes for conservative politics these days. The war on women's rights, the war on birth control, and the dismissal of women in power are all evident in the MAGA universe that some conservatives want to turn our world into.

In short, we live in an imperfect world where women are concerned. Those who wish to perfect that world... the "liberals" and "progressives"... are on one side of this struggle, and the ones who want to leave things the way they are now... "the conservatives"... are on the other. Or maybe they're in the middle, and the ones who want to roll back women's rights are the true enemy.

I am always confused when I hear about "conservative values" because I don't know what those values are anymore. The conservative values of today are not the conservative values of Barry Goldwater or William Buckley or John McCain. So when you use that term, I'd appreciate your being more specific.

 

[GlasDomDaddy]

I am always confused when I hear about "conservative values" because I don't know what those values are anymore.

I think that cuts both ways; over here in the UK we have difficulty telling the conservative party and the labour (I guess these would be liberal) party apart.

I mean they use different words but ultimately: more tax, more state surveillance, less freedom of speech

 

[Bramblethorn]

I think that cuts both ways; over here in the UK we have difficulty telling the conservative party and the labour (I guess these would be liberal) party apart.

I mean they use different words but ultimately: more tax, more state surveillance, less freedom of speech

Here in Australia, the "Liberal Party" is the main conservative party. It causes a lot of confusion.

 

[IrisAlthea]

Here in Australia, the "Liberal Party" is the main conservative party. It causes a lot of confusion.

Mmh, same here.
The party that calls itself The Liberals is sometimes more socially conservative than the consevatives and they love the free market until gas and energy prices climb too high - then they want to regulate.
The free speech and ”quit spying ”-people have been pushed out on the fringe or left and a lot of their traditional voters are like ”Could you please pick a point of view and stick with it for a minute or two and change your name back to something that doesn’t give people the wrong idea?

 

[GlasDomDaddy]

The free speech and ”quit spying ”-people have been pushed out on the fringe

hehe - the news call us "far right activists" here for demanding free speech

 

[RedSilk69]

So is a conservative man or one who holds some conservative values toxic by definition?

Toxic is in the eye of the beholder - and since women trend more liberal than men, if you’re interested in what women think, look at life through a liberal lens.

To frame it in a “what we want from men” way:
-We want men who recognize that pregnancy is a huge deal and a one-size-fit-all solution is actually you just saying you know better than us - and that bodily autonomy belongs to corpses before it belongs to people with uteruses
-We want men who know that ensuring the safety of their family means making sure they are well fed, vaccinated, well treated, clean, respected as individuals, and enjoyed, because those are key elements to an actualized life. Safety exceedingly rarely - *vanishingly* rarely - means we need someone with a gun on our side - and having a gun in the house is extremely dangerous. Between suicides being more likely to end quickly in death and guns getting into the wrong hands (eg, kids showing off), they are a danger
-We want men who have done the hard inner work of seeing they live in a patriarchal, white supremacist society, and who actively work to be part of bringing to light a world that doesn’t have those massive problems
-We want men who listen to women’s voices first and foremost, who do their own research, who have a genuine curiosity about the rich diversity that is invisible to those who think life is a competition
-We want men who value community - deeply and truly. Men who have friends who are other men, or non-binary people. Men who don’t depend on women in their lives to do all t he emotional labor for them
-We want men who recognize that the fundamental idea of conservatism - to maintain traditions and traditional systems - favors those who are already favored, and disadvantages those who are already disadvantaged, and says “this is the right and natural way of things”
-We want men with enough empathy (which is a logical skill) and compassion (which involves acknowledging that emotions are important) to be able to figure out why trans rights, immigrant rights, gay rights, women’s rights, and human rights are all important, even if you don’t identify with that group
-Finally, we want men who recognize that women are not a monolith, and obesity isn’t going to be a factor in many women’s estimation of you as a partner. Not only do you make her laugh - but do you laugh at her jokes?


So in a nutshell: yes. Conservative men are the worst.

 

[GlasDomDaddy]

So in a nutshell: yes. Conservative men are the worst in the eyes of a lunatic.

 

[IrisAlthea]

Finally, we want men who recognize that women are not a monolith,

Uhm, agreed…

 

[lustychimera]

Manliness is a myth. Nobody knows what the hell it means, same as nobody truly knows what being feminine is. Just ask somebody to explain it without interjecting traditional gender roles. It's just a euphemism for that.

It's just another thing strangers say to tell you how to behave like "being cool."

Physically, mentally, emotionally, intellectually, how does man-boy fashion himself into husband or father material, and not merely stumble into such relationships causing permanent psychological trauma to his loved ones?

Just standard self-help things. Work to be the kind of person you yourself would be attracted to. And be comfortable with your own self alone before finding a partner---they're an addition to, not a fix.

What's attractive is having a direction in life and the ambition to stay on the path. A lot of self help programs first have you create a kind of higher power to put up on a pedestal, something to keep yourself accountable. Maybe you need some kind of idol to epitomize, something that suits the kind of person you want to be, where you want to end up. A hero at the end of the road to self improvement who's constantly cheering you on, who wants to stand next to them as their equal in success.

I can't tell you who that is for you because there's no one who's actually that perfect in this world, and I don't know who you want to be. But you can work to epitomize the idea that you have of them as long as you understand that that's not the same thing as the person themself. You're creating your own personal god and modeling it after something you look up to, not actually looking up to the person themself.

Honestly, it mostly sounds like you're asking how to mature yourself, and working through strife is the surest way to affirm your character and figure out who you actually are. It's not about being flawless. It's about understanding your flaws and how to manage them while focusing your life around your strengths. You're in a good place to become someone great.

Fake it until you make it. Screw the imposter syndrome; most everybody goes through that.

Don't use not having a male role model as an excuse to limit yourself.

 

[GlasDomDaddy]

Uhm, agreed…

You would like the menolith to stop view women as a monolith?

I think @RedSilk69 is making an elaborate joke with their post

 

[IrisAlthea]

You would like the menolith to stop view women as a monolith?

While I do agree with what I quoted, I found the contrast between the quote below and the rest of the post entertaining.
I should perhaps get a sarcasm sign to hold up, though.

Finally, we want men who recognize that women are not a monolith

 

[GlasDomDaddy]

While I do agree with what I quoted, I found the contrast between the quote below and the rest of the post entertaining.
I should perhaps get a sarcasm sign to hold up, though.

You might be on to something there, people often think I'm being terse when I'm trying to get a laugh.

I'm pretty sure @RedSilk69 has us on the wind up though; there's more contradictions in there but they've kept it so close to realistic .... the ultimate troll would be not to clarify it now

 

[policywank]

Sine you have already received lots of advice I'd suggest that a key part of being an adult - man or woman - is being able to receive and reflect on advice while maintaining the ability to ascertain what is most applicable. One the one hand you have to be careful not to just pick and choose the bits that you like. But on the other hand you don't want to get hung up on the specifics of what works for someone else. An adult matures to the point of being able to decide what is applicable on their own. Be open to the input of others, but don't take on the need to reconcile your views to that of others.

For instance, it makes complete sense to seek meaning and purpose, order and structure in your life. And if cleaning your room helps you do that, then great. If you aren't sure then give it a try. But don't get sucked into the premise that cleaning your room is some sort of objective prerequisite to having a purposeful life. There are lots of people leading purposeful, adult lives who don't have a particularly orderly bedroom. You have to have the judgment to realize when that "thing" isn't what works for you and that shouldn't be taken as failure. Otherwise you will end up with a zillion little habits that other people project on to you. It isn't possible to maintain them all and not doing so does not equal failure.

The same goes for information. You are surrounded by information and misinformation. The reason it is so difficult to separate the two is because misinformation is usually masked by some degree of truth followed by a bunch of bullshit. Or it is a series of facts followed by a conclusion that isn't actually a logical outcome of the facts presented.

 

[ToPleaseHim]

I so wanted to stay out of this thread just because I knew what it would evolve into, which it has, unfortunately for the OP. But this post begs so many questions.

So is a conservative man or one who holds some conservative values toxic by definition? You mentioned your amazing dude who's dominant but also quite liberal. That's why I ask. Is any sort of conservative man toxic just by definition? And if so, what are the parameters specifically that would make it so? Just seems so broad-brushed and blind, but most things are nowadays.

For me, a person who holds what are currently considered conservative values in America is so counter to what I value and believe, that this would not be a person I would want to associate with in any way. I would not trust them enough to be in any sort of relationship with them. As far as “toxic,” specifically, I think those on the extreme of either side of the political spectrum can be toxic, but I am most appalled by those on the extreme right.

 

[GlasDomDaddy]

For me, a person who holds what are currently considered conservative values in America is so counter to what I value and believe, that this would not be a person I would want to associate with in any way. I would not trust them enough to be in any sort of relationship with them. As far as “toxic,” specifically, I think those on the extreme of either side of the political spectrum can be toxic, but I am most appalled by those on the extreme right.

Do you believe that each of you would act differently upon witnessing a child in peril?