How would you feel if your partner confessed that they had raped someone?

[stickygirl]

Nod. There's a crime teenagers love called 'conversion.' With respect to automobiles, it's called joy-riding - familiar to everyone, i should think. You get in a car, drive it around for a while, and leave it somewhere (possibly even where you picked it up), without the owner's permission. If you had permission, you'd just be borrowing the car, and no crime would be committed. It's a pretty minor crime, but it's another one that rests solely on the matter of consent.

Ha - what nice kids you have in the US! In the UK joy-riders steal the car, get their mates to put the footage on YouTube, then set fire to it on some waste ground. Proper hard-nut kids, the fuckers. Chances are though, they grow up and work as tyre fitters.
Sorry slightly off-topic but it made me smile

 

[stickygirl]

Let's take Steubenville. That high school, football team, parents of the guys, girlfriends of the guys, the coaches etc. belittle what happened - this is not sufficient for me to see a rape culture. It's morale going totally wrong, much like a cop will not rat out another cop, even if that cop committed a crime against a citizen.

As I understood it, apart from parents whining that their little boy could never do such a thing ( perhaps because they came from a misogynistic family - dare I say rape culture family? ) - apart from that, the reason for the attempted cover up was big bucks. Don't the sports facilities there draw a lot of sponsorship for their football and basketball coaching? A quick skim through Wiki reveals a disreputable police force as well. Nice place to send your kids.

One final point to the admin here. WTF does misogynistic come up as a spelling error? Misanthrope doesn't.

 

[Stella_Omega]

There are some, certain types of fraud f.e.




The facts are correct, but I think your conclusion is wrong. You conclude that the comparison is meaningless. I conclude that when "simple" crimes like murder and burglary have less prosecutions than rape crimes, that they can't do such a bad job in prosecuting rape crimes, considering the difficult circumstances you have outlined.

Your interpretation is off. Some rapes are successfully prosecuted, but most rapes go unreported. There is no stigma in reporting a murder or a burglary, there is enormous stigma in reporting a rape.

It's not a trigger, I just don't think it is right. I could argue that there is a domestic violence culture in BDSM, using the very same arguments and reasoning that exist that prove a rape culture.

Let's take Steubenville. That high school, football team, parents of the guys, girlfriends of the guys, the coaches etc. belittle what happened - this is not sufficient for me to see a rape culture. It's morale going totally wrong, much like a cop will not rat out another cop, even if that cop committed a crime against a citizen.

And that's what makes a culture. Cops have a culture of loyalty over everything. it informs everything they do.
We have a culture that minimises interpersonal violence and one of the forms that is minimised is rape.

If YOU would belittle what happened, then we would have a rape culture.

Why would one individual's awareness make a difference?

You are right. But isn't this is due to the nature of the crime? Not because men try their best to devise a mischievous plan to make it most uncomfortable for a victim.

If making the report most uncomfortable for the victim, of course the group most likely to perpetrate it will do their mischevious best. Making it difficult is a very useful tool in the getting-away-with-it toolbox. Society might not be aware of what it has done, but that's how it's worked out.

The reality is that the offender in a rape trial gets a unique plea bargain, up to minimum sentence, to save the victim from the court hearing. But the real problem is that the offender these days has nothing to lose anyway - he rather takes the higher sentence, because for him the chance to not get registered as sex offender and turned into a social outcast for the rest of his life is worth more than the guaranteed low sentence. Yes, that's the mind-blowing reality: The victim has to endure the court hearing, because sex offenders are absolutely not culturally accepted.

Bull fucking shit. Women have had to endure the trial of their morals for the crime of being raped for centuries-- long, long before sex offenders were ever listed.

Maybe we need to discuss what cultural acceptance means for us. Is murder culturally accepted in Detroit, with an all-time high of murders and when parents tell their kids to stay away from gangs and certain neighborhoods?

yes, that is a good example of cultural acceptance.

But maybe my view is too strict, I don't know. For me, cultural acceptance is when society says:"What did you expect, you are just a woman."

And that is exactly what society tells us.

 

[Primalex]

yap yap yap

Sorry, did you say something to me?

 

[BrightlyGo]

One final point to the admin here. WTF does mysogynistic come up as a spelling error? Misanthrope doesn't. Nuff said.

i tried and it corrected to: misogynistic.

Oh, and misanthropy is not the opposite of misogyny, misandry is.

Of course, misandry doesn't actually exist, as evidenced by the fact the board flags it as a spelling error with the only suggested correction being 'misaddress.'

 

[Dyslexicea]

This makes your statements even more depressing

I'm no longer feeding the troll. I'm guilty of letting you dictate where this thread has gone. I've decided I'll respond to you as I do one other small troll who's tunneled into the Literotica boards.

blah blah blah blah

Next time my response to you is going to be the same.

 

[stickygirl]

..............

 

[Primalex]

I'm guilty of letting you dictate where this thread has gone.

Which is bad of course, after all, everyone knows that you should dictate it, right?

No need to answer.

 

[njlauren]

This is actually a hot topic and has a lot of interesting branches. For example, what is with a diabetic who fails to eat properly?

The consensus is that there is a DUI with intent and without. The DUI without intent does not punish the willful driving (because, as you recognized, a drunk does not necessarily do something willful), but punishes the willful negligence of preventing a possible DUI; it punishes that you didn't take precautions _before_ drinking - asking someone else to drive for you, handing the keys to the barkeeper, whatever.

Making the sober moment as the one that counts does bring its own problems though, because it means that someone can be guilty for a crime, even though he committed it while being unconscious. Which doesn't sound right either.



Applying the DUI logic to rape does not quite fit here. Can we really hold the person responsible for not properly preventing rape? I already have trouble to come up with reasonable precautions.

If a diabetic failed to eat properly or monitor their blood sugar and got into an accident because of it, they could be cited and potentially if they killed someone be brought up on vehicular manslaughter charges, if they were found to be negligent (for example,a diabetic didn't take his/her medicine), or took medicine known to cause impairment. This is different from, for example, someone has a stroke or a heart attack and causes an accident, because it purely would be. If a driver knowingly does something that they know can cause issues, like drinking or drugging and driving, or fail to take medicine, or failed to eat when diabetic, when there is foresight possible, they can be charged.

 

[njlauren]

Stella and Dyslexica are correct about rape, one of the biggest problems with it is it isn't reported a lot of the time, because the victims are ashamed. All you had to do is look at the stupidity coming out of certain members of the GOP, when they make statements like if you are raped, you can't get pregnant, so if they get pregnant ipso facto it means they wanted the guy to force them to have sex, or another gem from the heartland saying there is 'real rape' and 'not real rape'...and I am not even going to talk about male on male rape, that is reported even less of the time.

Even with rape shied laws, where scummy defense lawyers used to be able to bring up a women's sex life or the way she was dressed as a defense against rape (do that today, and they face contempt and potential disbarment, thank God, talk about a culture of immorality, where lawyers thought it was okay to make a victim the criminal, and they wonder why people hate lawyers), it is still traumatic, it is reliving what happened, and also having to testify about something that is one of the worst violations you can have. My sweetie was raped by her oh so pious father for 7 years, and I saw how horrible it was trying to deal with it in therapy...I am only sorry I didn't know about it before the SOB left the country, I wouldn't have bothered with the cops or the courts, who probably would have assumed she was lying because her father was a 'good Catholic" *blah*, knowing how lightly the cops and courts treat rape and sexual abuse, how they see it as a bother, I would have dealt with him myself, or had someone take care of him, and I am dead serious, it is that vile a crime.....

The reality is that the victims of rape often aren't treated all that much better than they would be in a garbage pit like Pakistan, where dad and the brothers would kill her for soiling the family name....

Want some reality? There was an article on Yahoo's website, about a teacher who had sex with a 14 year old girl student of his, and the girl committed suicide at 15. The teacher was found guilty, and that solid, 'real american' judge in Wyoming, sentenced the guy to time served (30 days I believe), plus years of probation, and what was the judge's comment? That the 14 year old girl was older than she looked, and she basically was the driving force behind the affair, and you wonder why women are pissed off? The stupid bastard, whom I am sure Sean Hannity and Fox News will cheer on as being a sensible judge, couldn't see how vile this was: 1)If a 14 year old girl comes onto an adult, it is the adult's responsibility to say no, the child in this case is never to blame, when you are an adult you act like one, but I guess said graduate of the University of Wyoming law school (which is probably one step up from studying law through some online diploma mill), couldn't figure that out. 2)The man was a teacher, which is a level above an adult having sex with a kid, teachers are in a position of trust, and in many states there are special laws governing teachers seducing students, the penalties are much higher (I believe in Texas it can be up to 25 years in jail).

I did some volunteer work at a rape crisis center in NYC, and I can tell you with first hand knowledge that 'the legal system' often treats rape as an annoyance, as something they would rather sweep under the rug, it is tough to gather evidence, the victims are often uncooperative, scared, ashamed and wary, and it can be difficult, especially in he said/she said cases, to get a conviction, and one thing I can tell you about the legal system and criminal justice, it tends to be very, very lazy, path of least resistance (for the record, there are cops in the sex crimes units and in the DA's office, who are hardheaded, wonderful people who take the job seriously, just that there are also a lot of lazy SOB's who want to do as little as possible).

Maybe because I have seen the damage of rape up close and personal,but with rape , while there can be gray areas, they are pretty small, and in the end, the damage done to the victims is such that I have almost zero tolerance for it, and if someone told me they raped someone and it didn't seem gray to me, I would walk away.

 

[Primalex]

a teacher who had sex with a 14 year old girl student of his, and the girl committed suicide at 15. The teacher was found guilty, and that solid, 'real american' judge in Wyoming, sentenced the guy

I'll repeat my statement: What is Justice in such a case?

It was statutory rape. She agreed to it and he shouldn't have listened. That's not an excuse, I'm just saying that it is different than grabbing a girl and fucking her against her will, causing further physical and psychological damage or to prevent a girls 'no' with a date rape drug.

For the fact that he should have ignored her consent he

a) was sentenced to 15 years - with most of it on probation, yes. Probation does not mean "same offense again" though. He could end up in prison the rest of his life for repeated wrong parking.

b) got registered as sex offender for the rest of his life.

c) lost his job and his teaching certificate, basically turning him into an untrained labor for the rest of his life.

d) lost his wife and his home.

e) is required to partake in a sex offender treatment program. Treatment failure: see a)

f) still has to face the civil lawsuit. If he ever finds work again, the money will be taken away to cover the damages.


So, what else is necessary to balance out Lady Justices scales in your opinion? I'm just curious what is important for you so that you are satisfied with the punishment.

 

[stickygirl]

^^^ Dunno pal - why not answer your own questions for a change, instead of spouting contradictions to drum up an argument you've no wish to see resolved? You're the one who's spent hours researching Wiki to make you an instant expert on any given topic, so you go ahead: make a statement and stick to it.

*yawns*

At least these guys were amusing

 

[Primalex]

why not answer your own questions for a change

How would this help me to understand another persons point of view?

There are questions that have no right or wrong answer, the answer merely tells you something about the other person. The most famous question, I guess, is: Is the glass half-full or half-empty? There is no right or wrong. There is just a point of view.

Eye-for-an-eye for example is a completely acceptable solution to the problem of what Justice means and is still found in countries these days.

But I'll tell you what important for me is: that a criminal does no longer commit crimes. What is the benefit of sending someone to jail if he rapes the next girl a week after being released? Regarding the means, I'm quite indifferent - death sentence, lifelong sentence, chemical castration, sex offender treatment program - anything with a fair chance that people are safe is fine. Unfortunately, mere jail time has proven to not really work, so I don't value jail time very much.

 

[Stella_Omega]

How would this help me to understand another persons point of view?

Haha no. This is not your goal.

 

[Dyslexicea]

This gave me a funny stray thought:

next time I'm getting on your nerves: tell me "how beautiful I am."

I do not take it well.

There are many types of beauty Stag, if I said you had a beautiful mind or a beautiful heart would you be offended?

I really can't help that I find Marquis beautiful, it is just human nature to be attracted to beauty but I did have a point in telling Marquis he was beautiful, a point which you'll just have to think about.

Please lead the way! But we're not talking about begging or being begged for support. We're talking about education and voluntary acceptance of education. I'm the one BEGGING YOU for support.

The only way we have any hope for the future is if the majority of humankind are not already monsters. I do sometimes feel that's a bit of a stretch. Men who are not monsters must be at least a part of that majority. We need to reach those men, young and old. We need them to understand how bad it is, without blaming them in the process. When you make generalized statements that vilify all men, you are ostracizing a demographic that we need to make a difference.

For those of you who are activists; I want desperately for your activism to make a difference. An overwhelming difference.

I'm not activist enough to fill up your bus all by myself.

The only way you'll ever understand is to listen to us, get past our anger and listen to what we are saying. You've watched this thread, you've watched one man almost destroy it. It doesn't matter how we say it, we can be nice, we can try to be neutral but multiply the Primalexs and worse(the haters) of the world by hundreds of millions, year after year, after year, after year, maybe you'll understand where our anger comes from.

Read what feminist say, ignore the anger and listen to our hearts. I don't have any magic to change the world. I don't know how to change the hearts of men. Maybe it has to be one at a time but I can't change men's hearts if you won't listen and most of you men don't. If you want your daughters to live in a world where feminist are no longer needed, you'll have to stand up, you'll have to change men's hearts and minds. It doesn't have to be big and bold, if you change only one heart it's one more man who also may work for change.

 

[stickygirl]

Eye-for-an-eye for example is a completely acceptable solution to the problem of what Justice means and is still found in countries these days.

Apart from contradicting yourself in one post: cite me a country, one country where an eye-for-an-eye justice does not repress women?

This is fun, though kicking someone who's down is not my style...
... are we having fun yet?

 

[Dyslexicea]

Just because I can.

Rape is not a game!


There isn't a police culture favoring the rapist over the victim, my ass!


I make mistakes sometimes, it's not tens of thousands of rape kits unprocessed it's hundreds of thousands rape kits unprocessed. End the Backlog. Being that only five percent of rapes are ever reported to police, any logical human has to come to the conclusion we do have a rape culture and a rape crisis. It's also not hard to conclude that many police departments and individual police officers, who's responsibility it is to investigate crime, think of rape as a non crime.


If you happen to have a college aged or soon to be college aged daughter you and your daughters need to read this article from Autostraddle.
'Know Your IX' Wants Sexual Assault Survivors to Know They Deserve Better From Their Schools.

 

[njlauren]

As I understood it, apart from parents whining that their little boy could never do such a thing ( perhaps because they came from a misogynistic family - dare I say rape culture family? ) - apart from that, the reason for the attempted cover up was big bucks. Don't the sports facilities there draw a lot of sponsorship for their football and basketball coaching? A quick skim through Wiki reveals a disreputable police force as well. Nice place to send your kids.

One final point to the admin here. WTF does misogynistic come up as a spelling error? Misanthrope doesn't.

The cover up was attempted very simply because of a culture that says that jocks are above the rules or the nod nod wink wink boys will be boys. Other than a couple of brave people who blew the lid off of it, the coach, the local pigs (sorry, I have respect for police, but the scum it that town should all be fired and brought up on charges, from the chief pig on down, and the DA's office as well), and the 'good citizens' of the town who worship the local high school football team and basically blamed the girl for 'ruining' the football team and such. If you want to see the culture, I highly recommend seeing the movie "Friday Night Lights" to get an idea of how fucked up these kind of towns can be. It is more like a culture that perverts things where sports are king and if the 'heroes' do nasty things, bury it and blame the victim..so much for middle America values that conservatives throw around.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I might, actually... I can't say for sure. It would be a presumptive and instinctual reaction, however, based on self preservation, and not based on some feeling of objectification.

That is a topic for another thread. Mental Illness perhaps.

Oddly enough, it's a presumptive and instinctual reaction for many women, based on self preservation on account of objectification.

Mental illness? it's pretty pervasive then.

One final point to the admin here. WTF does misogynistic come up as a spelling error? Misanthrope doesn't.

because Americans spell these things with a 'z' not an 's'

 

[Stella_Omega]

A hell of a lot of women are visual creatures too, Stag.
And women tend to assume that anyone who compliments them is setting up for... what was it again?

Oh yeah, humiliation. that's it. it's kind of humiliating to have your sincerely expressed needs, opinions, or intellectual accomplishments be ignored because of how cute you are.

And yanno-- that's one reason rape feels so despicable to the victims. All of who one is, erased because one small bit is desired by someone else.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'm saying that it's reasonable to be offended when someone ignores the good still in you, and commends your pretty face instead.

Maybe I missed something.

 

[Primalex]

where an eye-for-an-eye justice does not repress women?

So Ameneh Bahrami was repressed by the eye-for-an-eye justice

 

[Primalex]

There isn't a police culture favoring the rapist over the victim, my ass!

"meet crime figures", not "because they thought rape is a hobby every man should pursue anyway"


I'll approve the following statement:
"Police and justice are seriously underfunded and understaffed and the weaker the victim, the more it has to suffer due to these shortcomings. Victims of crimes against the bodily autonomy of humans suffer most from the inability of the legal system to guarantee a swift prosecution of the offender."

 

[stickygirl]

So Ameneh Bahrami was repressed by the eye-for-an-eye justice

Sorry pal - not biting

http://31.media.tumblr.com/71ad87bb2e2d3b43ded3b3607d311198/tumblr_msaxv67u771rx9ovro1_500.jpg

 

[Primalex]

Sorry pal - not biting

No problem. I have yet to see a transgender being able to hold a serious debate about anything. Actually, I think they couldn't even debate about something not serious like "Bottled water or regular water?"