How would you feel if your partner confessed that they had raped someone?

[KoPilot]

Originally written about racism, but: "the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house".

 

[stickygirl]

Originally written about racism, but: "the master's tools will never dismantle the master's house".

but kitchen is full of knives

 

[unicorn64]

Rape isn't even about sex. It's about power and dominance. But not consentual dominance. Therefore even if it a Dom or Master performing the rape if the victim did not consent it is not good. I would not be able to stay anywhere near a rapist. In BDSM there is supposed to mutual enjoyment so how could rape where the victim receives no enjoyment be acceptable. I was gang raped when 18 by 4 guys. I received no enjoyment at all and I did not say yes in any way. I wonder how many others these guys raped over the years and if they continued in to adult life raping. I do not see how anyone on the giving end could receive enjoyment especially when there are lots of willing partners out there. A rapist isn't looking for a relationship and may not even orgasm themselves. Just saying. The guys who raped me had no clue even what they were doing and thought a squirting orgasm was peeing. They only wanted a hole to put their dick into and as I think back I don't think they enjoyed themselves either.

 

[Primalex]

In BDSM there is supposed to mutual enjoyment

What

The guys who raped me had no clue even what they were doing and thought a squirting orgasm was peeing.

They didn't know what they were doing and you had an orgasm? Lucky girl.

 

[Tabea]

The guys who raped me had no clue even what they were doing and thought a squirting orgasm was peeing.

What
They didn't know what they were doing and you had an orgasm? Lucky girl.

A woman said she was raped and you tell her she was lucky. Are you serious?

 

[KoPilot]

A woman said she was raped and you tell her she was lucky. Are you serious?

I think "are you for real?" would have been better because the answer would have been "no". Lex is a fake person, a broken clock, etc.

 

[stickygirl]

Rape isn't even about sex ...

A woman said she was raped and you tell her she was lucky. Are you serious?

Please don't feed the troll: we're trying to choke it to death with sympathy - it's the kindest thing to do

Stag of Oberon - take it easy fella x

 

[Stella_Omega]

I was going to answer Stag's polemic about how horrible it must be to be falsely accused of rape, but you know what? We've discussed those exact issues from here to eternity already.

How many men who are totally not MRAs does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

None. They just watch the women try to screw it in and complain that we should give it one turn one way and one turn the other way, because that's fair.

 

[BrightlyGo]

Stella asked about how we define "shaming men." I see it as the propagation of negative stereotypes. Sweeping generalizations that just don't apply to the very people you need to listen, particularly when followed by overzealous propositions.

The idea floated wasn't to shame men in general, but to shame rapists who were known to their victim.

No one is willing to believe that they are the ultra rare exception. I refuse to believe I am.

I think you're the ultra-rare exception in that. Seriously, the first thing people think when they hear that some majority of people like them have some negative trait is "not me, I'm the exception!" Denial 101.

For clarity; this is not about "shaming men"; its pure vigilantism. Yes; it's the kind of thing I might be tempted to do myself.

Yes, it's vigilante justice. In theory, it'd be non-violent vigilante justice, though. That doesn't make it right, but makes it 'less wrong' if you subscribe to quantifying morality - and there are legitimate moral philosophies that do.

A better question here though might be; "what would you do if someone spray painted your house with the word RAPIST?"

Same thing i do with tags, obscenities and other graffiti - clean it up with acetone and paint over it if necessary.

Still, if "unchecked liberty is anarchy" then vigilantism is among the ultimate exercises of liberty, so maybe that is the answer. Guerrilla tactics to change the culture and fuck the system that's already setup to thwart change.

Vigilantism is a bad system of justice, no argument. If a society's established system of justice is worse...

 

[KoPilot]

Vigilantism is a bad system of justice, no argument. If a society's established system of justice is worse...

I think the only numbers we'd need to compare to make sense of this "lesser evil" scenario is false rape accusations vs the number of real rapes that never result in prosecution.

Mindful vigilantism starts to look real good if you go by those ratios.

 

[Dyslexicea]

Strange how easy it is for some of you to defend the rights of a rapist, rapist who do happen to be mostly male. It seem to me it's men defending men, we can't shame straight male rapist, his wife might find out, mommy or daddy might find out, children might find out, brothers or sisters might find out. Maybe even the women where he works might find out they're not safe being around him.

Comparing peaceful demonstrations against a rapist to vigilante justice is equal to saying the civil rights movement was nothing but vigilante justice.

Every hour of everyday I'm condemned for being a lesbian, men for being gay. Not only condemned but in many Christian churches the speech is hateful and intentionally used to incite violence against us. Why isn't that classed as vigilante injustice or hate speech or even illegal? Instead you all call that religious freedom or political speech when it happens to be a republican hater. Why is it when we want to speak up against a rapist actually pointing out a truth you want to call it vigilante justice? Why can't it be our right to freedom of speech and freedom of assembly?

We women have that right! " Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

As long as we don't advocate violance or intentionnaly incite anyone to do violance to the rapist, we have that right. We have a right to seek justice with or without the legal system, it's one of our most basic rights, the only thing we don't have a right to do is to punish the rapist. Shaming is not punishment by any legal diffenition.

If the man is wrongly shamed he does have the right to legally pursue his accusers, he can use the same legal system you all think is so just to women.

 

[stickygirl]

Thanks for clearing up the vigilante thing Dys - I feel better about my rights now even in the UK. The cops will be along and charge us with causing a disturbance, public nuisance, obstruction, behaviour likely to cause a breach of the peace, possible terrorist sympathies, perverting the course of justice .... but go ahead - lock me up - I'll have made my point

 

[BrightlyGo]

Comparing peaceful demonstrations against a rapist to vigilante justice is equal to saying the civil rights movement was nothing but vigilante justice.

The idea in the linked article was for the victim and a large number of allies (200!) to accost the perpetrator in his place of work, decry his crime, and pelt him with rotten eggs.

Not very violent, but a little more than a mere accusation or exercise of free speech. We've seen how far mere accusations get, they don't do the trick. She says, he says something else, it goes nowhere. The victim gets shamed for 'letting it happen' or 'asking for it.'

In terms of non-violent incident specific shaming; that take a lot of guts for the victim to stand with others in the picket line outside the accused's house. Maybe asking too much.

The idea was /lots/ of others, so the victim would have copious support, and not standing outside and symbolically picketing, but cornering, confronting, and employing minimal violence to unequivocally 'mark' the guilty party. Much more dramatic than the picketing that society has become so desensitized to.

The article didn't consider the risk of reprisal, though. The rapist might not be able to do much when the victim has her supporters all around her, but, they're known to eachother. He's already demonstrated a penchant for violence against her. Maybe a later reprisal would amount to an 'admission of guilt,' but that's small comfort if she's been victimized again.

 

[midwestyankee]

A Thoughtful Take on Editorial Choices

I came across a very good article today that seems pertinent to this discussion: How Not To Publish Columns Justifying Rape: A Step-By-Step Guide For Editors.

 

[Dyslexicea]

The idea in the linked article was for the victim and a large number of allies (200!) to accost the perpetrator in his place of work, decry his crime, and pelt him with rotten eggs.

Did you fail to read my post, did you fail to read when I wrote I thought we could do so without throwing eggs? I did not advocate using any violence, even if it was minor.

 

[Dyslexicea]

I came across a very good article today that seems pertinent to this discussion: How Not To Publish Columns Justifying Rape: A Step-By-Step Guide For Editors.

Thank you!

 

[Primalex]

A woman said she was raped and you tell her she was lucky. Are you serious?

That's not what I said. I said that you are lucky when you have an orgasm despite the guy not knowing what he is doing.

I could have also said that it sounds like an oxymoron - if you are able to make someone orgasm, you seem to know what you are doing.

 

[Primalex]

It seem to me it's men defending men, we can't shame straight male rapist, his wife might find out, mommy or daddy might find out, children might find out, brothers or sisters might find out. Maybe even the women where he works might find out they're not safe being around him.

Comparing peaceful demonstrations against a rapist to vigilante justice is equal to saying the civil rights movement was nothing but vigilante justice.

You really think there is no fundamental difference between the signs "Soldiers are murderers!" and "Sgt. Steve Miller is a murderer!"?

I can't recall any civil rights movement that tried to single out individuals instead of protesting against the institution.

Every hour of everyday I'm condemned for being a lesbian, men for being gay. Not only condemned but in many Christian churches the speech is hateful and intentionally used to incite violence against us. Why isn't that classed as vigilante injustice

Show me one church, where the topic the real life Dyslexicea is, please, pretty please. But hey, let's take your completely stupid example - so you wouldn't mind when these people would go to your workplace with "Dyslexicea is a lesbian and should burn in hell!" signs and protest there? Great.

But don't worry, even the worst preacher of hate wouldn't come up with this idea. Of course, you are the striking example then that there are beings that are even lower than those preachers.


Nobody stops you from condemning rapists. But that's not your goal, you want to punish individuals, even if you don't want to admit it.

We have a right to seek justice with or without the legal system, it's one of our most basic rights, the only thing we don't have a right to do is to punish the rapist. Shaming is not punishment by any legal diffenition.

You don't even have basic knowledge about the legal system.


Death sentence for rapists? I don't mind. But you are unable to understand that the price for this is not paid by the rapists, but by the victims.

 

[Marquis]

I really can't help that I find Marquis beautiful, it is just human nature to be attracted to beauty but I did have a point in telling Marquis he was beautiful, a point which you'll just have to think about.

Wait, what was the point?!

So much for being flattered.

 

[stickygirl]

Oh come on Stag - you are saying until we can definitively prove the statistics we should be paralysed from taking any action? You know damned well the numbers of falsely accused men is tiny; that the number of unreported rapes is huge. You're in effect saying that the status quo is acceptable - it isn't. Two wrongs don't make a right, but what about the victims who are bullied out of proceeding with their case because the police and lawyer know it will fail because the system is so much stacked against them. That isn't acceptable.

As for being barred from pressing charges - you're missing the point. We're referring to the many cases where the victim has been dissuaded from proceeding. If they have a good legal case then go for it without any need for a peaceful demonstration. You really are cherry-picking bits of previous posts to suit your argument

 

[Dyslexicea]

Stag these are not fairy tales, the statistic are real. They come from many study, most done by top universities, the Justice Department and many State Agencies.

Really what you're doing is accusing us of lying. We do not seek help at the literally tens of thousands of rape crises centers just in US alone because we are falsely accusing men of rape. We don't report rape to police because justice is not being done by our legal system, to a greater extend justice is not being done by the male dominated society we live in.

There I've said it, we are not important enough for you men to stop men from raping. It's your court, it's your ball, if you men really cared, rape wouldn't be something all of us women have to fear.

 

[Marquis]

I fell too far behind in this thread to read everything I've missed, but would this be an accurate summary?

1. Rape is bad (we all agree)
2. False accusations of rape are bad (I think we all agree)
3. Lots of rapes are unreported (but hard to tell how many)
4. Rapes are often unreported because the system is bad

What seems to be left is that we are debating the costs/benefits of a system where more rapists are punished, more rapes will be reported and more false accusations will be made or punished, correct?

 

[Stella_Omega]

I fell too far behind in this thread to read everything I've missed, but would this be an accurate summary?

1. Rape is bad (we all agree)
2. False accusations of rape are bad (I think we all agree)
3. Lots of rapes are unreported (but hard to tell how many)
4. Rapes are often unreported because the system is bad

What seems to be left is that we are debating the costs/benefits of a system where more rapists are punished, more rapes will be reported and more false accusations will be made or punished, correct?

Close enough.

But it's not necessarily true that more false accusations will be made. Nor that they will be punished. Every accused rapist has the right to a fair trial, and as some of us are so fond of pointing out, -- legally, a trial is not a punishment.

When accused rapists never come to trial vigilante justice is perceived as necessary, and that falsely accused are punished unjustly.

 

[stickygirl]

I fell too far behind in this thread to read everything I've missed, but would this be an accurate summary?

1. Rape is bad (we all agree)
2. False accusations of rape are bad (I think we all agree)
3. Lots of rapes are unreported (but hard to tell how many)
4. Rapes are often unreported because the system is bad

What seems to be left is that we are debating the costs/benefits of a system where more rapists are punished, more rapes will be reported and more false accusations will be made or punished, correct?

False accusations and wrongful convictions are made all the time - and I'm not talking about rape. Think about theft, embezzlement, GBH... not buying a rail ticket, so lets got too precious about the falsely accused rapist as though were an anomaly in the justice system. Rapes convictions are seldom prosecuted in spite of good forensics, witness accounts, CCTV footage - but that just brings us back to the rape culture and shitty policing.
If someone wants to step up with accurate figures for falsely accused bicycle theft then they can feel more justified in trying to contradict the glaringly fucking obvious fact that there are not enough rape convictions.

Sorry - wasn't swearing at anyone in particular. Been a long day

 

[Primalex]

False accusations and wrongful convictions are made all the time - and I'm not talking about rape. Think about theft, embezzlement, GBH... not buying a rail ticket, so lets got too precious about the falsely accused rapist as though were an anomaly in the justice system.

There is a minor difference though. If an man is found not guilty of burglary, he is treated as an innocent. If a man is found not guilty of rape, he is treated as a rapist who wrongfully got away.