Illustrated Poetry

[twelveoone]

But E.E. Cummings used words as graphic elements as well, i.e., he wrote illustrated poems.

I think you suffer from the same problem as 1201. Your view is entirely valid when applied to some figurative illustration (illustration in the strictest of senses), but you forget about graphic poetry where image and verb draw from each other to create meaning that goes beyond each separate entity's. Graphic art can be as much or in fact much more open to subjective interpretation than words.

Your quote earlier, now what problem?
Illustrate what you trying to do, can you do that? Give me examples where it works. Show me why you think it works.
These statements, back them up. As I said, I'm an easy sell, sell me, don't call my judgement into question, because I disagree.

 

[wildsweetone]

Thank You WSO, the effect I get is pretty much a pretty picture with pretty words, it destroys the effect of:
"by the Still Pond silence is unheard"
probably the most reaching line in here.
does nothing for:
for the sound of cicadas permeates
fantails flit
from branch to branch
capturing prey on the wing
amplifies:
placid air (weak line, possibly made stronger by contradiction of action above)
and the sun burnishes wet boulders (amplies this but is it needed)

But consider the source, from someone supposely challedged.

All consider this: in the movies, did you ever notice that most of the times, the best lines are uttered in scences when the action is static.

The worst bands are always the loudest, with no understanding of dynamic range.

I have yet to hear a convincing argument about the addition of pictures to poetry, outside that it is fun.
What I have heard:
I am defective, in that I can not absorb as much information as the next person.
It has been implied that I suffer from lack of imagination and/or maybe visually impaired.

I find this all doubly funny, because Tara Blackwood, certainly one of the better poets to ever grace these pages, used to refer to me as "Jackson Pollock". I knew enough about art, and was intellectually astute enough to realize, she wasn't complimenting me.

Thank you for your comment. I don't understand much of it at this point, but I'll print it off and work through it.

 

[tolyk]

I have yet to hear a convincing argument about the addition of pictures to poetry, outside that it is fun.
What I have heard:
I am defective, in that I can not absorb as much information as the next person.
It has been implied that I suffer from lack of imagination and/or maybe visually impaired.

I find this all doubly funny, because Tara Blackwood, certainly one of the better poets to ever grace these pages, used to refer to me as "Jackson Pollock". I knew enough about art, and was intellectually astute enough to realize, she wasn't complimenting me.

This wasn't supposed to be an arguement, it was a discussion. There is a difference, which I'm sure you realise. Noone is going to make anyone else see their point of view in this, you don't feel that pictures add anything of merit to a poem. That's fine, that is entirely your choice.

Personally, I feel that the pictures set the mood of the piece, not tell the reader what to think. I enjoy a good photograph with a poem, either overlayed or just displayed above, but this might have to do with the fact that I'm a photographer. *shrug*

You say you've not heard anything convincing, and I say that you should enjoy poetry whichever way you can. If, for some, that is via illustrated verse and for others just plain black & white, that is entirely their choice to make. You don't feel that it adds anything to the poem, in fact you feel it cheats and takes away from the words. What if there are some who feel that not illustrating it does the same thing? Is that not their choice to make?

I would continue ranting, especially since I don't feel I've been coherant at all, but I've things to do.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Give me examples where it works.

Take any poem in Born Magazine. Take my first illustrated poem, or take my last one. You may like it or not, but tell me if the image limits you or if it opens up new interpretations.

 

[Angeline]

Amen.

 

[The_Fool]

Go look at that link to Born Magazine that I posted at the beginning of this thread and you'll see what I think about adding music to the mix. To me, it's digital peformance art--maybe not to everyone's taste, but I find it fascinating. I guess if you extend the concept of mixing these elements far enough, you get----film. What a concept, lol.

And you know the early beat poets used to read in front of jazz musicians. I could be wrong, but Kenneth Rexroth, I think was one who did this. Ginsburg incorporated music and chanting into his poetry. Why not? It's just evolution and the best of it will survive.

Langston Hughes.......Weary Blues.....Now where is that CD.

 

[Rybka]

Word and Picture Synergy

Here is an illustrated poem that Lauren helped me with, and another friend shrank to size when I could not. - The words came first, long before the photo, but I truly think that the picture and the words augment each other. Together they create another dimension that neither words nor photo can reach separately. The words alone are just quick rhyming humor, and the stock photo, just that. Together they make a statement, perhaps even suitable for a poster (or perhaps I am still stuck in the sixties.)

 

[ishtat]

By way of Illustration

Take any poem in Born Magazine. Take my first illustrated poem, or take my last one. You may like it or not, but tell me if the image limits you or if it opens up new interpretations.

I have attempted this using the last edition of Born magazine examining the 4 current poems. Very brief notes as follows:-

Pencil in the obvious Amanda Aughter
Read the poem alone first. Interesting in that the poem instructed the reader to "Draw me a ?" . That line made the poem very effective because as reader I immediately created my own picture. I enjoyed the poem which had a sort of wry irony feel to it. Last four lines a bit weak. The illustrated version was active with a worm playing the part of a serpent .Should have been more sinister perhaps? The wiggly worm made it appear more humorous than possibly the poet intended. Read together the illustration limited rather than enhanced the poem in my mind . It added in one sense but limited in the remainder.

Burn Boys Celestial Beckian Fritz Goldberg
Read the illustrated version first this time. Found it very distracting and difficult to the point of failing to follow the words.Possibly the stacatto style and small words had something to do with that. Quite enjoyed the poem without the images. I felt that the images on this one overwhelmed the poem to the extent that I was surprised at some of the lines when I read them separately .I had not 'seen' them at all first time around.

Lydia Sparrow Michael Teig
This work is very much an illustration with an incidental poem.The variations in the final collage unfortunately were not working so I cannot be too critical. However ,the images were to me very dominant over the words again to the extent that I was surprised to see some of the words at all when I read them on their own.

Notes on the Night Highway Wayne Miller
In this case the image was much simpler - less assertive and it was consequently easier to concentrate on the words.The image to me (moving film ) seemed to run parallel to the poem and not get in the way as noted with the other examples.I did not think this image restricted the poem because the poem itself wasn't particularly ambitious in terms of layers of interpretation

Lauren suggested that these works be looked at to see whether the illustrations added to (enhanced) or limited ones appreciation of the poetry. I suggest that the question is not quite adequate because it tends to imply that the words and pictures are or should be separable. Having tried this exercise it clearly confirms to me that I have a problem with images and particularly strongly stated, assertive images.They tend to me to emphasise particularities rather than add new ones. However, the fundamental problem is language, we are talking about Illustrated Poetry (though Rybka i think had another word) That title brings with it a baggage of preconceptions we need to discard. this is a legitimate art form and a different one and deserves a more generous consideration than that of a very particular and pre-conceived point of view. I suspect that others would get more from these works, especially the illustrations than I did

Next we conducted a further experiment. my daughter has access to the technology of a television studio and using the equipment there we looked at all these works again. I do not know why but it is much easier to take in the whole work when you are 20 feet away looking at a screen 6' by 10'. Our resident psychologist opines that it is because the space between an individual and a computer is so restricted that that in itself affects our perception of image as being much more assertive(agressive) than it is at a distance.

Incidentally Lauren, your al Gharb pictures look good on a big screen. our technical expert twiddled them a little to ensure that the magnification didn't deteriorate them.

My final conclusion is that I personally will always struggle to some extent with illustrated poetry but it is clearly a developing and different genre still limited by technology but deserving its own rather than only comparative consideration.

 

[twelveoone]

This wasn't supposed to be an arguement, it was a discussion. There is a difference, which I'm sure you realise. Noone is going to make anyone else see their point of view in this, you don't feel that pictures add anything of merit to a poem. That's fine, that is entirely your choice.

Personally, I feel that the pictures set the mood of the piece, not tell the reader what to think. I enjoy a good photograph with a poem, either overlayed or just displayed above, but this might have to do with the fact that I'm a photographer. *shrug*

You say you've not heard anything convincing, and I say that you should enjoy poetry whichever way you can. If, for some, that is via illustrated verse and for others just plain black & white, that is entirely their choice to make. You don't feel that it adds anything to the poem, in fact you feel it cheats and takes away from the words. What if there are some who feel that not illustrating it does the same thing? Is that not their choice to make?

I would continue ranting, especially since I don't feel I've been coherant at all, but I've things to do.

Tolyk, I was using definition 2a. I realize the definition is is sliding to where quarrel is becoming a synonym, but it is still the accepted defination.
Of course it their choice to make, and I have no quarrel with the argument with it is may be fun to do.
The argument I made is that the picture supercedes the word, and I have yet to be shown it is an effective tool, and is a hinderance to anything with depth.

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=argument
1 obsolete : an outward sign : INDICATION
2 a : a reason given in proof or rebuttal b : discourse intended to persuade
3 a : the act or process of arguing : ARGUMENTATION b : a coherent series of statements leading from a premise to a conclusion c : QUARREL, DISAGREEMENT
4 : an abstract or summary especially of a literary work <a later editor added an argument to the poem>
5 : the subject matter especially of a literary work
6 a : one of the independent variables upon whose value that of a function depends b : a substantive (as the direct object of a transitive verb) that is required by a predicate in grammar c : the angle assigned to a complex number when it is plotted in a complex plane using polar coordinates -- called also amplitude; compare ABSOLUTE VALUE 2

 

[twelveoone]

Take any poem in Born Magazine. Take my first illustrated poem, or take my last one. You may like it or not, but tell me if the image limits you or if it opens up new interpretations.

I would rather you explain, with concrete examples, what the intent of the picture is in relationship to the poem, since it could be argued that I may be a prejudiced audience.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I would rather you explain, with concrete examples, what the intent of the picture is in relationship to the poem, since it could be argued that I may be a prejudiced audience.

That's fine, go ahead. I can live with you being a prejudiced audience. You're the one saying that images always dictate what you think and limits your interpretation of a poem, so you're the only one who can explain, with concrete examples, how does that specific image limits your specific mind in interpreting that specific text and vice-versa.

 

[PatCarrington]

That's fine, go ahead. I can live with you being a prejudiced audience. You're the one saying that images always dictate what you think and limits your interpretation of a poem, so you're the only one who can explain, with concrete examples, how does that specific image limits your specific mind in interpreting that specific text and vice-versa.

lauren,

i tried 'born magazine,' as ishtat did. they didn't work for me either. and i too admit, like he did, that the fault may lie with me and not the poems.

i think he summed it up pretty well (and my reaction to Rybka's illustrated poem as well, which i also found wanting, in a big way) with:

Having tried this exercise it clearly confirms to me that I have a problem with images and particularly strongly stated, assertive images.They tend to me to emphasise particularities rather than add new ones.

the fact that they 'emphasize particulars' is where the 'limitations' i spoke of come in, for ME.

and i find it impossible to disregard the iluustrations if they are there. i am like Lot's wife....if it's there, i'm salt.

to disregard your Al Gharb photos, i literally have to move them off the screen, even though they have their separate place. and then what's the point, since they were presented by you as a complete package.

you, and liar, have argued your points well. i understand your POV's.

and i agree with 1201 - if it's fun, that itself is a legitimate argument for illustrated poetry, or for anything.

 

[Angeline]

No need to try to calm down the flaming, luv. Cuz there is none going on. (ok, at least not from me)

All I've been doing is trying to figure out the point of view of certain people. Because gosh, other people's perspectives interrest me. The only way to do that that I know of is to throw questions and pry answers that I can relate to out of them. And show them my POV as detailed and hopefully graspable as I can, in the hope that they then do tha same back to me. I've debated enough in my life to know that the goal is almost never to convince the other side. And in a matter like this? Naah.

I'm a curios fella, and when I encounter things I don't understand, I try to figure them out. Not agreeing with them, but understanding. And hopefully make them understand me.

Which I kind of have now, I feel.

Good point my friend. I've been teaching reading to 6 year olds lately. I'm naturally in "everybody just calm down" mode. Does it show?

 

[PatCarrington]

I'm naturally in "everybody just calm down" mode. Does it show?

no, not today.

 

[twelveoone]

That's fine, go ahead. I can live with you being a prejudiced audience. You're the one saying that images always dictate what you think and limits your interpretation of a poem, so you're the only one who can explain, with concrete examples, how does that specific image limits your specific mind in interpreting that specific text and vice-versa.

Declined, would be fruitless, I have looked, I can only react, as I have already done, unless I can be shown otherwise, and I would welcome to be proved wrong. I've already conceded points:
Ange (I think) well its fun
Liar (partially) suppose it adds a level of irony - would need to see an example.

I will disagree(not sure if correct word) with Pat on one small detail.
Ange's Nightingale as a consumer piece, illustrated is nice, I overlooked it at first non-illustrated. But the real beauty of the piece is the stucture, the relational power of the words. But, you do have a better and quicker eye, than I do, for that sort of thing, Pat.

 

[wildsweetone]

Sidelight: One of the characteristics that distinguish free verse from rhythmical prose is that free verse has line breaks which divide the content into uneven rhythmical units. The liberation from metrical regularity allows the poet to select line breaks appropriate to the intended sense of the text, as well as to shape the white space on the page for visual effect.

poeticbyway

 

[Angeline]

Declined, would be fruitless, I have looked, I can only react, as I have already done, unless I can be shown otherwise, and I would welcome to be proved wrong. I've already conceded points:
Ange (I think) well its fun
Liar (partially) suppose it adds a level of irony - would need to see an example.

I will disagree(not sure if correct word) with Pat on one small detail.
Ange's Nightingale as a consumer piece, illustrated is nice, I overlooked it at first non-illustrated. But the real beauty of the piece is the stucture, the relational power of the words. But, you do have a better and quicker eye, than I do, for that sort of thing, Pat.

Yep, you were right--I do think it's fun to illustrate poems (but then I also love to write sestinas...well, you know, I'm a strange girl).

And thank you for your comment about Nightingale. I once told darkmaas that I'd put my poems on tshirts and coffee mugs if I thought someone would buy them. So much for "art," eh?

I do think that the text-only version of Nightingale is much better as "poetry," but whatever you do, don't tell Carrington.

 

[PatCarrington]

I do think that the text-only version of Nightingale is much better as "poetry," but whatever you do, don't tell Carrington.

yeah, we better not.

if he finds out, that s-o-b is liable to throw it in your face or something.

you know them goddamn Irish.

 

[Angeline]

yeah, we better not.

if he finds out, that s-o-b is liable to throw it in your face or something.

you know them goddamn Irish.

Yeah, I know them goddamn Irish all too well. I live with a chip off the old blarney stone.

Don't get me started.

 

[PatCarrington]

Yeah, I know them goddamn Irish all too well. I live with a chip off the old blarney stone.

Don't get me started.

i thought you liked us.

 

[annaswirls]

Take any poem in Born Magazine. Take my first illustrated poem, or take my last one. You may like it or not, but tell me if the image limits you or if it opens up new interpretations.

I went to Born Magazine. I think the matter of opinion has much to do with people's sensory preferences. The poem I looked at as it blured in and then flew out of the screen was incredibly distracting to me.... as were the flashes of light and dizzying images... I had to stop because I was nauseous!

I like some illustrated poetry. I do not think what I like is really poetry though.

I think it might be better entitled as Textualized Art.

It is rare for an illustration, embedded or not, to add to my experience in the poem. It can make for a fun media experience, like the one Neo did with the staircase awhile back.

Your latest ones to me are fine. I see them like a nice postcard with a greeting on the back.

I just think to argue about it is pretty absurd. Getting defensive about one's own work is kind of crazy too. A lot of people love Illustrated poetry, a lot of people don't. It is a matter of your sensory preferences. Pat is visually distracted. He probably learns and takes information in pieces. Others see the whole picture and take it in that way. I do not like Audio poems. I focus too much on the voice and at the end, I don't really have much to take away from.

I like the funky ones, Lauren your jazzy one and Ange had one too. But again, I do not really see them as poetry. Lauren's last series to me, was poetry with a picture above it. They exist as individuals.



At any rate, as Ange said, they are fun to do. To each his own.


okay damn it, Liar killed my argument before I even believed it myself. Did you see his new illustrated ones up today? Dayum.

 

[Neonurotic]

*bumpity for Harry and Ange.

 

[HarryHill]

*bumpity for Harry and Ange.

Thanks again. wasn't looking long 'til I found this pay particular attention to the first three examples and the last.

 

[butters]

Thanks again. wasn't looking long 'til I found this pay particular attention to the first three examples and the last.

really interesting examples. the last, in particular - ok, blood in red is a tad cliché, but i really like how 'revolution' works using the larger font. in. your. face. works on all kinds of levels.

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

Brilliant, particularly "hear my name" which I've never seen before.....and just look at all those comments.