infidelities

[SexyChele]

BTW, I read a few of your stories last night.....you owe me a box of Kleenex

I don't think I've heard anyone coming to the point of tears over one of my stories! I'm not sure what to say, except that I am glad they touched you. Oh, and passing you that box of Kleenex!

On a last note, he may not even be the wonderful lover that he leads you to believe that he is. Many people that can't perform sexually wander from affair to affair, always seeking the one that gives them hope of feeling good about themselves. Good sex can never give someone a cure for low self-esteem... at least not permanently. This type of personality can easily become addicted to sex as a mean to validate themselves. They will always need new horizons to conquer because even with all of the love you give, they refuse to see that there is a problem within themselves.

Run, don't walk. And most of all, don't bother looking back. He'll be with another before you're out of sight.

I just could not let this pass by without saying that this is so, so true! Maybe not in all cases, but more times than people would like to admit. Thank you, Emmeline!

 

[Cirrus]

Cirrus, I have a good deal of respect for you as a person, and anyone can agree or disagree with my positions. I respect that.

There are women out there, married and single, who seek out married men. They like the idea of no commitment. Hey, it's not my thing, but I'm cool with it. (Unless one of these women are doing this with my man behind my back, then it becomes something that I am most certainly not cool with.)

Now, I have a question for you. When you were cuddling up with this married man this morning, what was his wife doing? Was she aware of where her husband was at? Is she cool with this arrangement? Hey, some wives are, from what I understand. Just curious. And if she wasn't aware of where her husband was at, then why not? Why not just say, "Hon, I'm going over to Currus' house for breakfast, and then we might sleep together, k? I'll be home in time for dinner, I promise."

If a couple shares an open relationship because they have determined that monogamy just doesn't work, that is one thing. If a man has to lie, that is something else.

And I would be curious - the wife who you said you've met and talked to - did she know you were screwing around with her husband? Again, just curious, you don't have to answer.

My experiences are my own, yes. And I do have a knack of being overly trusting sometimes. I'm learning. I now trust no man at all. It's just easier that way, until he proves me wrong. A weird quirk I guess from getting hurt too much.

You sound as if you enjoy your relaionships with men who are married. I wish you continued continued happiness. There are not many women who can share their men, you seem to be able to do that, and I sincerely tip my hat to you.

OK, maybe I was a little harsh in my reply, but the tone of your post seemed to be in absolutes...that relationships with married folks are ALWAYS this way and can NEVER be any other way. My sincere apology if I took it wrong.

And it's only fair to answer. No, his wife did not know. I think she may have suspected, but she had no interest in him in any way, so she really had no "right" to care.

Even if she had cared, she really left him no other choice. I know, on some level, he would like to have breakfast and good conversation and a nap with his wife. But she won't allow him that, and one can only beat their head against a brick wall so many times before it starts to hurt, and you realize the wall is never going to move. He got to that point.

And it's not that I "like" to share my men...I'm just not at a point in my life (see above post) where I want a committment or a relationship that might progress toward one. I just want to have good times with somoene I think is cool.

 

[James G 5]

Married guys seem to fit that bill. It works for me right now. Maybe someday I'll look back on it all and think I was foolish, but again, that time is not now.

See, another of my problems with monogamy is that it tends to force people in to "relationships" with the problems you cite, leading them to what I feel are unhealthy options like you've chosen

If we could have less emphasis on monogamy, jealousy, and the idea that a relationship is ownership, people would be a LOT hapier

IMHO, of course

 

[James G 5]

I don't think I've heard anyone coming to the point of tears over one of my stories! I'm not sure what to say, except that I am glad they touched you. Oh, and passing you that box of Kleenex!

I didn't need them for TEARS......

 

[James G 5]

And it's only fair to answer. No, his wife did not know. I think she may have suspected, but she had no interest in him in any way, so she really had no "right" to care.

Even if she had cared, she really left him no other choice. I know, on some level, he would like to have breakfast and good conversation and a nap with his wife. But she won't allow him that, and one can only beat their head against a brick wall so many times before it starts to hurt, and you realize the wall is never going to move. He got to that point.

See, this makes NO sense to me
And is another brick in my "no monogamy" wall
The idea that a commitment must be "forever" no matter what, as enshrined in destuctive marrigae contracts & divorce agreements and "vows" in a Church given the "authority" of "God"
A relationship, especially at the level of a marriage, should be fundamentally & at its core an agreement of love, trust, and support between the people involved
Once one of the parties decides they no longer want to participate, the contract should end
You said this guy promised to stay "forever, no matter what".....But in this case, not only why would he WANT to stay but why does she want him around?????
The idea that people are SO lost with no hope in their relationships they feel their only hope for solace is an affair shows how much is wrong with our ideas of what relationships are

 

[Rowdygirl]

I mostly just quietly lurk...

Chele, I have to ask: Do you mind if I quote your original post on another message board that I read (one for women currently involved in affairs)? I think that some of my friends there could benefit from your insight (as I already have) and I'd really appreciate it. However, I don't want to take your words and put them somewhere else on the internet without your permission. Thanks for considering my request.

(I'll resume lurking now, if ya'll don't mind )

 

[SexyChele]

Hello Rowdygirl! Sure, you can quote me if you think my words might benefit some one else. Hopefully, some one else will be spared unecessary pain.

 

[MWG]

You're right to be worried
To amplify something MissTaken said, a BDSM relationship, more so than ANY "vanilla" one, requires a heightened level of trust
If the relationship is entered in to on his part thru a basis of lies & distrust, how will you ever REALLY be able to trust HIM?
Also, he probably isn't communicating these things to his wife....Again, why enter in to this with someone who's unwilling or unable to communicate his needs?
If this man is truly a lifestyler or a Dominant, don't you find it questionable that he entered in to a marriage where his needs & desdires go unadressed & unfulfilled?

IMHO, RUN, do not walk, away from this
I've been active in the fetish community for several years and have seen a LOT of encounters occur in situations like this
They pretty much ALWAYS end badly, usualy with the woman hurt and the guy back with his wife either trying to salvage his marriage or pretending it never happened
There're also a lot of predators who operate from the "safety" of a marriage (it gives them an easy excuse for dumping you) & seek out lonely/vunerable women (those who're recently out of LTR's for instance) to use to fulfill their needs before dropping them like hot potatos once their rocks have been firmly gotten off

Give yourself a little time to get over your previous relationship & find someone who you can give a shot at building somethign new & healthy with, without the lies & dishonesty

Absolutely BADASS post, James. The nail has been firmly hit on the head, bound, gagged, whipped, tortured, fucked, and tucked into bed with those points you made. Submitting yourself to someone is an unequivocal submission of one's trust. And if this guy isn't trustworthy enough to come clean with his wife, or even express his desires to her (most often, people don't get what they need sexually NOT because the other person is unwilling, but because THEY themselves are too afraid to ask), then he's most definitely not trustworthy enough to hold sway over her in such an intimate manner as a D/s relationship. I agree- she needs to tuck tail and run, FAST. I see bad news written all over this union.

 

[MWG]

LMAO

I'm currently 'involved' with a few different women, in various stages of relationships, and while I don't reveal details of any single relationship, I don't hide those relationships either. Mostly, it is just talk, most of it online, but some stuff goes on in real life. I don't lead people on, I don't make claims that I can't back up, and I don't expect anything less than the honesty and respect I give to be returned. Either way, I am up-front about my activities, and I don't feel any guilt about it.

Although I'm sure this guy doesn't have any guilt either, in his case it is because he is a toad.

<comes up behind you, wraps arms around your shoulders and >

I must say I agree.

 

[Pure]

Hi, MyLoveMySweet,

I find myself most in the 'camp' represented by Netzach. Life does not always unfold according to morality.

There is, it seems, a whiff of pretense around here in that, of the 10-20 who've posted 'against' surely contain those who been with married people. Now they have advice.

As for Sexy Ch, I don't doubt that the experience is as she said, being 'second fiddle', ultimately discarded, etc. The question is of her predictive ability for OTHERS. It's worth noting also that SC {Added: seemingly suggests}** several relationships with marrieds, and hence does not or cannot follow her own advice. The 'didn't know' thing only covers one so far, and the first time, my friend. Did you inquire?
Most marrieds are obvious.

Here is what makes me cautious on advice. A friend's sister came to me for advice. She was seeing a married person. I gave her more or less Chele's speech about the statistics. She didn't ask further advice but continued with him, and in about five years, he
DID leave his wife and (surprise!) married her; they had a child together and he stayed with her till his death (not from a jealous ex).

So much as we would cast stones at the 'unfaithful', more than a few have been involved with them. Further, I just bet that there is at least one 'unfaithful' person themselves among the nay sayers.

All the 'hurt' stuff is 90% correct. It's likely. However those folks neglected to mention that, on most of life's paths even leaving aside adultery, there is hurt. And I would tend to disregard the advice of all singles who can't keep their own rules against married-dating or who've been married and unfaithful.
Anyone left standing? What is your advice, again?

This is just my own view, and it reflects experience, but it's not less valid --than others--from coming from imperfection. Everyone here, almost, has tried to 'generalize' and yet, in scientific terms, each one has a biased and pitifully small sample.


**SC has informed me that the impression of number was mistaken.

 

[Justina123]

Originally posted by Cirrus

B]Even if she had cared, she really left him no other choice. I know, on some level, he would like to have breakfast and good conversation and a nap with his wife. But she won't allow him that, and one can only beat their head against a brick wall so many times before it starts to hurt, and you realize the wall is never going to move. He got to that point[/B]

Of course, the danger here is, you (probably) only know this because this is what he told you. She (the wife) may have an entirely different story to tell.


Originally posted by Johnny Mayberry

I'm currently 'involved' with a few different women, in various stages of relationships, and while I don't reveal details of any single relationship, I don't hide those relationships either. Mostly, it is just talk, most of it online, but some stuff goes on in real life. I don't lead people on, I don't make claims that I can't back up, and I don't expect anything less than the honesty and respect I give to be returned. Either way, I am up-front about my activities, and I don't feel any guilt about it.

Total agreement! It just comes back to honesty and communication, as is almost always the case. Sir and I are in a committed relationship- yet, we are both open to occasionally playing with, or seeing others. We both tell the other, preferably beforehand, when this is going to occur. Afterwards, we don't give any kind of "play by play" report but a mention of how it went is always made. And anyone we see or play with knows the whole story as well. It can work quite well and adds a lot of fun to life.

But dishonesty, IMO, always bites someone in the end.

-justina

 

[Pure]

Hi John M,

you said,


I don't lead people on, I don't make claims that I can't back up, and I don't expect anything less than the honesty and respect I give to be returned. Either way, I am up-front about my activities, and I don't feel any guilt about it.

Although I'm sure this guy doesn't have any guilt either, in his case it is because he is a toad.

With all due respect for your intelligent positions, it's always among the posters on this thread, three cheers for honesty; and apple pie and motherhood.

Not a single person here has admitted to the slightest dishonesty in a relationship. Hmmm. Must be an angelic bunch.

John, have you been in a long term relationship? What's your experience here?

Is the guy a 'toad'. Well, he's probably out for himself, quite a bit. Wants that little extra 'supplement' to what he has. Now that doesn't fit anyone here of course. No one has even had a cyber flirtation they didn't tell all their SO's about.

Statistically about 2/3 of the married men and 1/2 the married women fool around (affairs). To that we add other things men don't count (remember Clinton's 'I've not had sex with that woman'). Prostitutes, for instance. For women, much more is in the mind-- any cyber affairs around here, among the women? Were any of you less than up front? Does your SO know all those you've masturbated with?

I hold that the 'toads' are about equally found in the 'affaired' group (those married or equiv who've had affairs), as the 'unafffaired' group', taking into account such things as coldness, cruelty, and deceptions of all kinds (not just around affairs). And I'm sure John M is not a toad and that honesty is to be applauded.

J.

 

[ReadyOne]

In my experience (which you may have read on other threads) the only time there was a problem was when one of the affected parties did not know what was going on.

If you want a fuck buddy, get the wife's blessings, direct from her.

If you want more, decline his offer and get the heck away.

 

[MWG]

Not a single person here has admitted to the slightest dishonesty in a relationship. Hmmm. Must be an angelic bunch.

No one here is claiming they are "dishonesty-free". Actually, they've been attesting to the destructive nature of dishonesty. How could they bear witness had they not experience the pain that comes with being dishonest, as well as having someone be dishonest with them? I think it's safe to say we've ALL been dishonest, even on something as small as little white lies to keep from hurting a spouse's feelings. That said, dishonesty is destructive, and most of us know this firsthand. You live, you learn.

Is the guy a 'toad'. Well, he's probably out for himself, quite a bit. Wants that little extra 'supplement' to what he has. Now that doesn't fit anyone here of course. No one has even had a cyber flirtation they didn't tell all their SO's about.

Dunno about you, but hubby totally knows I come here. And yet again, no one here is trying to pump themselves up as being free of sin, or is "casting the first stone". They're simply relating what dishonesty can get you. However, I must point out that pursuing a woman on the side while you're married, and chatting/flirting with someone off of Lit, are in two entirely different realms. There is a lot to be said for a physical exchange, and making love to someone while you're committed. However, being dishonest about EITHER doesn't make for very good relations between two people who SHOULD share everything, ideally.

Statistically about 2/3 of the married men and 1/2 the married women fool around (affairs). To that we add other things men don't count (remember Clinton's 'I've not had sex with that woman'). Prostitutes, for instance. For women, much more is in the mind-- any cyber affairs around here, among the women? Were any of you less than up front? Does your SO know all those you've masturbated with?

Yet again, no one here is getting self-righteous and relating that they've NEVER been dishonest or a little shady. They are, however, more than likely experienced in what being dishonest will do to a relationship.

 

[zanna]

i hope it is alright that i enter into this discussion. i am still trying to get a feel for the board here.

IMHO, there are few circumstances where it is okay to cheat. This is a very personalized subject with me. Once having been cheated on, it is damned near impossible to get that trust back. The emotional wounds, the absolute sense of betrayal, heal over but never go away. Any of the following is only my opinion. i would rather make that a blanket statement than begin every sentence with IMO...

There are three sides to every marriage -- his side, her side, and the truth. It troubles me when i hear someone say that he/she was left no choice, and the fact that they are "roaming" is due to their partner. It indicates a person unwilling to take responsibility for themselves. If one does not wish to be monogomous, then one should not enter into a situation where they promise to be so. If one has reached a point where they are no longer happy or fulfilled, then they need to consider their options outside of cheating.

i am by no means squeaky clean. i have experienced both sides when i grew too close to someone online who was married. When i realized how close i had come to doing to someone else what had been done to me, i was horrified.

When considering attraction to another, i think it goes much beyond just should or shouldn't i. For me, the biggest question would be what do i risk destroying and could i live with myself if i did. i could not live with myself if i hurt another woman the way that i was, nor could i destroy another's home life and family, especially if there are children. He may up and leave her anyway, or she him, but i would not wish to be part of that. The hurt is just unreal. i lost two years of my life and have limited memories of my youngest daughter's babyhood.

The pieces are too hard to pick up. i would not want that on my conscience. i never realized how important trust is until i no longer had it...and then had to rebuild it.

If this message was too long, someone please let me know and i will limit in the future.

zanna

 

[Richard49]

If this message was too long, someone please let me know and i will limit in the future.

zanna

The length of and content of your message is fine

 

[SexyChele]

As for Sexy Ch, I don't doubt that the experience is as she said, being 'second fiddle', ultimately discarded, etc. The question is of her predictive ability for OTHERS. It's worth noting also that SC speaks of several relationships with marrieds, and hence does not or cannot follow her own advice. The 'didn't know' thing only covers one so far, and the first time, my friend. Did you inquire?
Most marrieds are obvious.

Pure, I'm a bit shocked by your words. My "several relationships" comes to exactly.......2. And one of those was never fully realized. The first one, yes, I knew going in that he was married. And fell for everything he said.

The second was a man I met online and never met in person. It is very easy to lie online, and not quite as obvious as one would think.

As to following my own advice, I am very careful to do so. Yes, I will admit the one occasion of online did catch me off guard. But thankfully, I had only come to regard him as a friend and we never actually met in person. I have learned ways to find out if a man is involved and if he is lying. I have learned, and incorporate that knowledge.

I will be 43 next month, and my only "real" relationship with a married man ended more than 11 years ago. Does that mean that I have not met married men at all? No, by all means, I have. It is inevitible, it seems. However, in asking the right questions and being suspicious, I have been able to find them out before he has a chance to ask for my number, or is able to buy me a second drink. Whether a man is married or not is of the utmost importance to me, and it is the first thing I find out.

Thankfully, I am happy to say that persistence pays off. There is now a wonderful man in my life who, yes I know for certain and without a doubt, is not married or invovled.

 

[Pure]

SC said,

//Thankfully, I am happy to say that persistence pays off. There is now a wonderful man in my life who, yes I know for certain and without a doubt, is not married or involved.//

That's great Chelle. I didn't mean to sound harsh, but 'answers' are not so easy to come by, on these issues. Indeed, while some young women can hold the line with a 'no married men' rule, I've found female friends in their 40s and 50s far more open to men of all statuses.

 

[His Flower]

i'm wondering what people here have to say about thi,s if anything

I'm wondering...is he going to be telling his girlfriend about you? Will he breaking it off with her and be with you? How do you feel about it? I'm just asking these questions I guess for you. My boyfriend and I have talked about another woman in our relationship. Am I jealous about it? Yes I am, but it's controlled jealously. I'm very happy that I'll be able to please him. But is it immoral? No, I don't think it is because all the parties know it. Whoever the girl is, she's aware about our relationship. I'm his girlfriend and I'm fine with it. But if this guy is seeing you on the sly, well...are you sure that this is what you want? In a way, being placed second in a relationship. I'm sorry if you feel that I'm raining on your parade, but I've had ex-boyfriends who've cheated on me in the past, and no matter how good he thinks he may seem, someone's bound to get hurt. But as for the situation I'm in now, I know this is what he wants from me, and I want it too; so it's not cheating. It makes it okay. Anyways, just my opinion! I don't know if I'm making sense

~ His Flower ~

 

[Pure]

Hi MysteryWG,

Thanks for your note. Probably the impression given was not quite what I wanted.

you said,


No one here is claiming they are "dishonesty-free". Actually, they've been attesting to the destructive nature of dishonesty. How could they bear witness had they not experience the pain that comes with being dishonest, as well as having someone be dishonest with them? I think it's safe to say we've ALL been dishonest, even on something as small as little white lies to keep from hurting a spouse's feelings. That said, dishonesty is destructive, and most of us know this firsthand. You live, you learn.

OK, there are no direct claims, but 'simple attesting' is not what I saw. I saw direct, unqualified, advice, and 'he's a toad.'


[...]
Dunno about you, but hubby totally knows I come here. And yet again, no one here is trying to pump themselves up as being free of sin, or is "casting the first stone". They're simply relating what dishonesty can get you. However, I must point out that pursuing a woman on the side while you're married, and chatting/flirting with someone off of Lit, are in two entirely different realms. There is a lot to be said for a physical exchange, and making love to someone while you're committed. However, being dishonest about EITHER doesn't make for very good relations between two people who SHOULD share everything, ideally.

[...]
Yet again, no one here is getting self-righteous and relating that they've NEVER been dishonest or a little shady. They are, however, more than likely experienced in what being dishonest will do to a relationship.

Again, I don't mean to say anyone is 'self righteous', maybe overly confident in a very simple answer, and in a very simple characterization.

My intent was not exactly to characterize people as dishonest, but rather to point to what I called a 'pretense' that they don't do these things. Or, to put it more exactly, a kind of impression that the advice might be realistic (i.e., that the giver is able to follow it). Sort of like those parents now in their 40s and 50s who say to their teens "Drugs are terribly destructive; the only rule is 'don't touch them.'"

I don't think this 'what being dishonest will do to a relationship' is quite so cut and dried; i.e, is a conclusive grounds for never having an affair. If one wants to look at honesty in relationships, and its lack, the picture is not quite so clear, and the person deceiving is not necessarily more 'black' than the other person. Nor is honesty the only factor that is relevant to toadhood. The forthright wife beater may be more worthy of condemnation than the 'deceptive' wife who lies to conceal her lover.

 

[MWG]

Hi MysteryWG,

My intent was not exactly to characterize people as dishonest, but rather to point to what I called a 'pretense' that they don't do these things. Or, to put it more exactly, a kind of impression that the advice might be realistic (i.e., that the giver is able to follow it). Sort of like those parents now in their 40s and 50s who say to their teens "Drugs are terribly destructive; the only rule is 'don't touch them.'"

I don't think this 'what being dishonest will do to a relationship' is quite so cut and dried; i.e, is a conclusive grounds for never having an affair. If one wants to look at honesty in relationships, and its lack, the picture is not quite so clear, and the person deceiving is not necessarily more 'black' than the other person. Nor is honesty the only factor that is relevant to toadhood. The forthright wife beater may be more worthy of condemnation than the 'deceptive' wife who lies to conceal her lover.

Basically, I think all anyone is getting at here is that, between the pros and cons of this union, the cons far outweigh the pros. You're helping someone deceive his wife, that person is also being deceptive in the process, the OP is being deceitful to herself (honestly, she is trying to talk herself into an affair with a married man; if she's got such profound qualms about it that she needs to seek affirmation on it, then apparently something about it doesn't feel natural or "right" to her, and that says a lot)... basically, this union will be based on a mountain of lies, half-truths, and other choice falsities. Now, if it was JUST a "get together for a little spanking, a little bondage, and some casual sex", and that was ALL... I could see where she might not run into a great many problems (although a D/s relationship does require a great deal more trust, usually, than your standard "vanilla" sexual relationship). However, she was conveying an admiration for the guy, as if her feelings ran deeper than just good sexual chemistry... she has the potential to really attach herself, emotionally, to this person. Now, we've mostly made it a point to ask her explicitly if she's looking for a relationship, or if it's just casual sex, if she's feeling any kind of deeper emotion than just "I want to fuck you"... as I see it, she's in a very good position to get emotionally involved with this man, and I'm sorry, but with as much deceit as this union will be based upon, she's only going to leave herself open to heartache. Not to mention the fact that she's JUST left a long-term relationship. ANY situation that involves feelings deeper than just raw sexuality, for her, is going to be a volatile one... it's hard enough getting back into relationships with a single, non-involved person who is willing to devote all of their time and energy to you. However, she's dealing with a married man, with other obligations and another woman with whom he shares his bed, his secrets, and his life... her wounds are far too fresh, IMO, to risk playing Russian roulette. For some people, affairs with married men were benign, overall. But in her case, I don't know, something just screams "Not legit!" as clear as day. Apparently, that same kind of voice is in the back of her head; if she really has so much inner turmoil, and must ASK people if it's right, then apparently it doesn't feel right enough to her for her to know definitely that it is what she wants. That is intuition at work, and even though intuition tends to sometimes deny us what raw instinct wants, overall it's the ingrained voice of reason that is all too often ignored. She'd do best to listen to hers; it sounds like hers is saying, "Something is wrong here..."

 

[Pure]

Mystery White Girl

you said in part,
//she's in a very good position to get emotionally involved with this man, and I'm sorry, but with as much deceit as this union will be based upon, she's only going to leave herself open to heartache.//

Perhaps this is true, is it appropriate to issue a judgment here?
We often see friends take up someting/someone that's not the best for them, in our eyes. I'm sure at some earlier point, your parents may have want to alter your behavior in accord with their preidiction of heartbreak. We simply cannot and should not get too involved in making others' lives unfold as we think they should.

As to another point of yours was that since she asked about it, she implicitly know it's wrong. I remember that approach in "DearAbby" a couple decades back. The girl of 18 is asking about yielding to her boyfriends 'demands' for sex. The reply was 'If you have to ask, you aren't ready.' To me that's having an agenda and trying to enforce it with a little too much cleverness. It's disingenuous.

I'm sure at several points of your life, some of those aroudn you saw you were about to do something. And l imagine sometimes they were right about unpleasantness or difficulties. Yet you must--and probably did-make your own decision; there nothing wrong with that. What would life be like if God spoke in your ear all the time of big choices, saying "Up the road, there will be a problem with this course of action" for example, an impending marriage. Yet that is what life is about -- executing one's own agenda and dealing with the consequence, regardless of the apparently good advice of our friends.

None of this says we should keep mum about consequences all the time, with our friends' actions. But I think there's a fine line, not found much in this thread ([ believe it was in John Mayberry] between saying "This will happen" and "Don't do it." My opinion is that informing is sometimes valid, but directing rarely is. That's assuming the 'information' is good. OTOH, that ain't necessarily so: we often 'see' or think we see a consequence, usually in terms of what happened to us. (that married man dumped me, says the advice giver; the latter assumes a paralleling of experience.)

Best,
J.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Hi John M,

you said,


I don't lead people on, I don't make claims that I can't back up, and I don't expect anything less than the honesty and respect I give to be returned. Either way, I am up-front about my activities, and I don't feel any guilt about it.

Although I'm sure this guy doesn't have any guilt either, in his case it is because he is a toad.

With all due respect for your intelligent positions, it's always among the posters on this thread, three cheers for honesty; and apple pie and motherhood.

Not a single person here has admitted to the slightest dishonesty in a relationship. Hmmm. Must be an angelic bunch.

Actually, I have developed my current attitudes based on wrongs I have committed, and wrongs committed against me. I'm not saying I'm pure as the driven snow, I'm just saying that I learn from my mistakes. Honesty works better than lying, at least for me.

John, have you been in a long term relationship? What's your experience here?

Is the guy a 'toad'. Well, he's probably out for himself, quite a bit. Wants that little extra 'supplement' to what he has. Now that doesn't fit anyone here of course. No one has even had a cyber flirtation they didn't tell all their SO's about.

I've been in long term relationships. The last one ended after a long periiod of infidelity(on her part) and lack of sex(on mine). I didn't look outside the relationship, I looked inside myself, to see what I could do to make things better. Knowing what I know now, maybe I should have cheated...but why not just break up instead?

Statistically about 2/3 of the married men and 1/2 the married women fool around (affairs). To that we add other things men don't count (remember Clinton's 'I've not had sex with that woman'). Prostitutes, for instance. For women, much more is in the mind-- any cyber affairs around here, among the women? Were any of you less than up front? Does your SO know all those you've masturbated with?

I hold that the 'toads' are about equally found in the 'affaired' group (those married or equiv who've had affairs), as the 'unafffaired' group', taking into account such things as coldness, cruelty, and deceptions of all kinds (not just around affairs). And I'm sure John M is not a toad and that honesty is to be applauded.

J.

You should see the conversations I have with the women I am involved with online. The strangest one is when one I have met in person contacted one I have not met, to vouch for me. Honesty rules!


Hell, I try not to be a toad...I'm not perfect, so I figure honesty covers my ass some.

 

[psiberzerker]

I'm bisexual, and while that doesn't neccisarilly preclude monogamy, in my case, it happens to be that way. As far as I'm concerned, if it's in the rules, it ain't cheatin'. All my LTRs since I came out where open to varying degrees, and in most, we've sat down fairly early on, and worked out what, exactly constitutes infidelity.
The most common one is "Body fluid monogamy" where any sex must be protected simply because of the whole STD thing. I've also had girlfreinds who'd share me with other guys, a few who would insist on passing judgement, and joining us. To them, it wasn't cheating because we both participated.
While I'm on the subject, is group sex infedelity? If so, why?

 

[His Flower]

Basically, I think all anyone is getting at here is that, between the pros and cons of this union, the cons far outweigh the pros. You're helping someone deceive his wife, that person is also being deceptive in the process, the OP is being deceitful to herself (honestly, she is trying to talk herself into an affair with a married man; if she's got such profound qualms about it that she needs to seek affirmation on it, then apparently something about it doesn't feel natural or "right" to her, and that says a lot)... basically, this union will be based on a mountain of lies, half-truths, and other choice falsities. Now, if it was JUST a "get together for a little spanking, a little bondage, and some casual sex", and that was ALL... I could see where she might not run into a great many problems (although a D/s relationship does require a great deal more trust, usually, than your standard "vanilla" sexual relationship). However, she was conveying an admiration for the guy, as if her feelings ran deeper than just good sexual chemistry... she has the potential to really attach herself, emotionally, to this person. Now, we've mostly made it a point to ask her explicitly if she's looking for a relationship, or if it's just casual sex, if she's feeling any kind of deeper emotion than just "I want to fuck you"... as I see it, she's in a very good position to get emotionally involved with this man, and I'm sorry, but with as much deceit as this union will be based upon, she's only going to leave herself open to heartache. Not to mention the fact that she's JUST left a long-term relationship. ANY situation that involves feelings deeper than just raw sexuality, for her, is going to be a volatile one... it's hard enough getting back into relationships with a single, non-involved person who is willing to devote all of their time and energy to you. However, she's dealing with a married man, with other obligations and another woman with whom he shares his bed, his secrets, and his life... her wounds are far too fresh, IMO, to risk playing Russian roulette. For some people, affairs with married men were benign, overall. But in her case, I don't know, something just screams "Not legit!" as clear as day. Apparently, that same kind of voice is in the back of her head; if she really has so much inner turmoil, and must ASK people if it's right, then apparently it doesn't feel right enough to her for her to know definitely that it is what she wants. That is intuition at work, and even though intuition tends to sometimes deny us what raw instinct wants, overall it's the ingrained voice of reason that is all too often ignored. She'd do best to listen to hers; it sounds like hers is saying, "Something is wrong here..."

AMEN to that!