infidelities

[lassarina]

What I have to say is
"any realtionship that is not honest
causes more damage then pleasure"

How very wise, Richard. The pleasure brought by being with this person can be fleeting but the damage can be tremendous to all involved.

lass

 

[Pure]

Hi PB

//The most common one is "Body fluid monogamy" where any sex must be protected simply because of the whole STD thing. //

I have not heard this term. Do it mean that two partners share bodily fluids with each other, and each is free to fuck/suck others, so long as condoms are used?

Perhaps another set-up--Im not sure of its name -- is intercourse monogamy. Those in committed partnership only fuck each other, but are free to 'make out', mutually masturbate or suck off or be sucked off by whomever they please. Maybe you were thinking of this in terms of saying 'infidelity' has to be defined.

 

[lark sparrow]

It's a poly term - "fluid bonded". This means that they have unbarriered sex (sex without condoms or other latex or plastic barriers) with one partner, usually the "primary", while having safer sex with any others. Of course it requires a high degree of honesty, self discipline, and good communication, so may not fit into infidelities very well.

Infidelity: Unfaithfulness to a sexual partner, especially a spouse. An act of sexual unfaithfulness. Breach of trust; unfaithfulness to a charge, or to moral obligation; treachery; deceit.

Infidelity in this case would be having unprotected sex with someone other than your fluid bonded partner.

(IOW, if one of your partner(s) remain unaware and haven't agreed to the "fluid bonding" clause and have been allowed to assume the relationship is monogamous, it's not poly - it's infidelity. It's not a deal you make with yourself, without your partners knowledge, through omission and deceit.)

 

[Quint]

I will only offer my own experience and let people take whatever normative judgments they want from it.

I was engaged to a man whom I'd been dating for two and a half years when I started seriously talking to T, who was a mutual friend. It started off as purely lust-based; I was trying to hide from my boredom with nilla sex and trying to convince myself that I didn't really need to be a submissive, I could just do it every once in a while. When T and I started exchanging fantasies about powerplay and rough sex, I thought I had a great thing going--play with him for a little bit over the computer, keep emotions entirely separate, and after the summer was over, go back to Hunny with no damage done and a few more hot fantasies to keep me going.

Didn't work. I grew more and more attached to T and more open with myself about problems with my fiancee that I hadn't dared admit yet--after all, if I looked at them, I'd have to see if I really ought to be engaged to him, and what if I decided that I shouldn't be, after I'd already committed so much to our relationship?

I was dishonest with him from the beginning. Didn't tell him I was talking to T. He found out by reading my posts here, on Lit. Confronted me and I admitted that I'd been having some D/s cyber but not that it was with T, who we both knew. He found that out by reading my emails. Dishonesty and deception all around and it was a very uncomfortable couple of months. I decided that although I still loved Hunny, I could not give this thing with T up. At this time it was still purely physical, with respect and friendship added in, but no love. No real thoughts of leaving Hunny for T.

That too changed. I came back and found that things weren't all shiny and new. I couldn't un-see the problems that I'd already glimpsed over the summer. We parted and remain friends still.

I needed to see that I had options. I wasn't strong enough to leave Hunny and be by myself. Just wasn't ready for that kind of independence. And I fell in love with T. 9 months later, we are very much still together and planning to move in together next semester.

Like I said, you pull your lesson from this. It's just my story.

One last thing, though----decisions are not all like on/off switches. It hardly ever comes down to a "I am 100% certain of this course of action." Would be far easier if it were that way, but the vast majority of the time, there are doubts that plague and continue to plague us for a long time afterwards. That these doubts are present is not necessarily an indication that she ought to abandon this course of action---after all, she probably has doubts about what would happen if she DID abandon it! Even if it comes down to a 51-49 vote, that's a decision.

 

[psiberzerker]

Hey, pure. I guess it's time to go into semantics again. Yes, body fluid monogamy means safe sex outside the relationship, and varying degrees of contraseptive inside it. The idea is that you know each other are safe (As possible) because you trust each other to take any means not to bring in little nasties into it.
Somone mentioned Intercourse Bonding, or Coital monogamy, which is what I was exposed to it as. I guess you could have anal monogamy, ("Your ass is mine!) as well as others, but that's the big one.
Basicly, whatever you call it is less relevant than the boundries you set up with your partner. I don't do the primary thing, I have only partner at once, but occasionally have less than serious outer encounters. Anyone I'm in that type of relationship with usually has the same kind, or level of restriction.
For instance, should my girlfreind decide that I cannot be with other women without her becomming jealous, she could only be with other women (assuming she's bi-sexual). If she's straight, I'd limit her to oral because that's all I do with guys, really.
The point is, it's a personall thing between you. Ask them what limits they want to set, compromize a bit, and call it whatever you like. That's the nice thing about being unconventional, you can make up the terminology as you go.

 

[Pure]

Quint, excellent stuff. Free of moralizing and advising. To me it shows that relationships give rise the deceptions and self deceptions in many complex ways; and the search for honesty--and a few other desiderata-- is through zig zag and approximations.

Best,
J.

 

[intrigued]

Okay, I have been involved with married men before - only one time that I knew beforehand the man was married. The rest simply lied. Shall I tell you what you are in for? The script is always the same, believe me.

First. He says she doesn't satisfy him? HOGWASH! Chances are they are going at it at least 2 - 5 times a week. She may not want to try the more kinkier things he's interested in, yes. But he's gettin' his nooky, trust me. And you? You will simply be his "kink outlet". Can you live with that?

Second. Be prepared for the fact that every single holiday, every birthday, every special event in your life cannot be shared with him. He has another committment. He will not be there for you when you are invited to that wedding. And forget about the family bar-b-que - he's gotta be home. Expect that, except for the bedroom and the times he can get away, you will live your life as a single woman.

Third. He's Dominant. Or has dominant tendencies. Doms don't normally like to share. I know. My first Dominant was the married guy who I knew was married. I soon wised up to what was going on, and decided if I could be "something on the side", then I might as well continue to meet men and go out. Nope. Not possible. He would call at unexpected times, and if I wasn't home, he would expect a full accounting. He had a key to my apartment (dumb, DUMB move!!), and when I would get home from a date - there he would be, sitting in my livingroom, spoiling for a fight. I was expected to be devoted to him and him alone, no other men, whatsoever. Towards the end, he resented me going out with my girlfriends as he suspected I was doing it solely to meet other men.

Fourth. No matter what you may have planned, be expected to cancel it if he finds he can get away at the last minute. Have tickets to that special event and are going with a girlfriend? Expect him to ask you to cancel or give your ticket away because he suddenly found out he's got some free time that evenng and "needs" you, "wants" you, you are the "center of his universe". Then, after you've fallen for this and have cancelled on your girlfriend, you can expect the call telling you that plans have changed, his wife is still home, and he won't be able to make. "Sorry, sugarcakes. Maybe next time." This will happen more than once, so be prepared, and you better not pout about it! After, he gets away when he can, you know! He's making sacrifices, too!

Fifth. Practice what you will say when that inevitable day comes when the phone rings and the voice on the other end says, "I'm ___________ wife, I found your phone number...." Men who cheat almost always beg to be caught. He will leave your phone number in an open spot "accidently". He will carry your picture in the glove box of his car, and "forget" it was there when his wife took the car to get it washed. She will NOT blame him! She will blame you - for everything. Be prepared: when this call comes in? You will feel the floor fall from under you. The pit of your stomach will suddenly be in your throat. And the topper? When she tells you that you aren't the first, that he has done this before. Yeah, despite him telling you he's never met anyone like you. He has. He's done it before. And he was probably caught at it before.

Sixth. Think about having a man in your life who you are happy with. You try to please him, and he tells you that you are perfect - he wouldn't change a thing! Then you find that phone number, those panties that aren't yours, that picture of the naked woman. Think how you would feel. What would be in your heart? On your mind? How would you feel towards that other woman? That is how your relationship will make his wife feel. I firmly believe in the sisterhood of women - we need to stand together. In helping him to betray her, you are betraying the sisterhood to which you belong. (And yes, I know this is only my opinion, but I am of the mind that I will not do to another woman what I do not want another woman to do to me)

Seventh. No matter what he says - and he'll get there eventually to keep you, believe me - never, ever believe it when he says he wants to leave "her" for you. He will tell you he can't because of finances, the kids, the house, the family, career, anything and everything. But, if he doesn't hold out some sort of "carrot" over time, he knows he will lose you. He needs to keep giving you hope to stay. Men in these situations RARELY leave their wives. They've got a great thing going! Regular nooky at home, along with cooking, cleaning, and all the little wifely things. And then there is you - worshipping the ground he walks on, acting like teenagers in lover, kinky as hell sex. What more could a man want? Plus, if/when his wife finds out, there is the possibility she will be SO jealous that she will jump at any opportunity to please him. You will be dumped like yesterday's newspaper - and in a heartflash. Be prepared for the feeling of having your heart ripped from you and stomped under foot - that's what it feels like.

Eighth. After this entire fiasco is ended (and it will - unpleasantly, I assure you), expect your next relationship to be an even more difficult experience. Your feeling of trust will be shattered. How do you know the next guy won't do the same thing? He's going to have to work harder, and that is going to cause resentment, eventually. Of course, this could always be a "transitional" relationship, but eventually you will want to get serious with some one. And always, in the back of your mind, will be those niggling doubts about how REALLY happy your man is, and if he hasn't in fact found some one like you once were for a little fun on the side.

Your conscious seems to be speaking to you loud and clear. Listen to it! This man is not free to give you trust or a relationship. I think you know that. Physical stuff is good. And can be had by almost anybody. I don't know you, but I've yet to meet a woman that I could say is so low that she should put herself into the living hell I went through. And it is a living hell. Find heaven on earth instead. It's out there, you just need to find it.

Curses!
I'm coming out of hiding to scream, dance, jump up and down and shake my thang to say Bravo!!!! This is one of the most compelling, honest, touching and just plain brilliant assemblage of very powerful words I've ever read, Chele. Kudos!

 

[SierraMoon]

Chele, i have never read a more true post in my time here at Lit.

i went through relationships with 3 married men. One of them was for 6 years! Yes, i knew he was married, but he gave me the whole "She won't have sex with me" story. Yes, back then i was stupid, and needing to feel wanted myself, so i got into any kind of relationship i could. IMO, relationships with married men are doomed from the start, unless you want a fling or something like that (and, i'm the first one to say that it isn't fair to the wife). Two of those married men told me they were going to leave their wives for me, and i believed them.... STUPID!!!

Anyway... the bottom line here is what has been said before.... look at how he treats his wife/SO, and that's how you will be treated, if not worse. IMHO




btw.... has anyone noticed that she hasn't posted again since that first day? Yoooohoooo MyLoveMySweet, where did you go to hon? Come back, we don't bite, honestly!

 

[Richard49]

Actualy 3-2 was her last post

I hope she is OK

 

[MissTaken]

Curses!
I'm coming out of hiding to scream, dance, jump up and down and shake my thang to say Bravo!!!! This is one of the most compelling, honest, touching and just plain brilliant assemblage of very powerful words I've ever read, Chele. Kudos!

Glad to see you slip out of hiding, intrigued!

Read lots of Chele's stuff. She rocks.



As for the issue, our thinking is often molded by our experiences. Sometimes, that leads to moralizing etc.

So, for those who are strongly against engaging with married men, it is the right decision for them.

For those who have had good experiences or have needs that seem only to be met by a married partner, that works for them.

In terms of this thread, the thread starter seemed to want input. Boy, did she get it! Both sides of the coin have been represented, but again, for the third time in this thread, I will say to anyone:

If it feels right, go for it.

If it doesn't feel good, run, dont' walk, away.

 

[primes]

That is a difficult predicament to be in.

There is a part of me that wants to say that his dishonesty is his problem and his marriage is his, not yours.

But then, someone who is dishonest with their wife doesn't seem likely to be honest with anyone else.

Also, that if it goes against your moral grain, you can't feel good about the relationship. If you can't feel good about the relationship, it shouldn't happen.

Just my two cents

That is a tough one! Perhaps, some who are on the other side of the issue could step in...married and looking.

this is where the French are more sophisticated than us Americans, each partner should be free to experiment, marriage shouldn't be a cage

 

[catalina_francisco]

A D/s relationship must be based on honesty and trust to be healthy. It seems to me these are not qualities he possesses, and they are generally qualities which are a part of a person or not, not acquired at the insistence or suggestion of another. My guess is he is using a well worn out line on you to get his jollies. A sad and all too frequent pattern, and unfortunately there are a lot of men out there in the vanilla world who see submissives as a means to an end....in other words their lack of understanding, or perhaps just their opportunistic instincts, lead them to see the lifestyle as a playing field to satiate themselves on before moving on to the next victim. Don't play victim, make an informed and self preservative choice. Take care.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Recently heard an interesting observation from Susan Sarandon. Was along the lines of if you find yourself itching to be intimate with someone, choose the one you are already with because the reality is, after a time, the new love will also develop into that stage where you are at that point in wondering if the grass is greener elsewhere.

C

 

[Netzach]

How quaint.

Cheating issue aside, that philosophy sure doesn't hold water with those of us who are poly.

Wanting to be intimate with someone based on them as an individual, based on their nuanced differences from any other individual on the planet is simply a fact of life. I choose to go with that flow, and I choose to encourage my partner to do same.

 

[catalina_francisco]

How quaint.

Cheating issue aside, that philosophy sure doesn't hold water with those of us who are poly.

Wanting to be intimate with someone based on them as an individual, based on their nuanced differences from any other individual on the planet is simply a fact of life. I choose to go with that flow, and I choose to encourage my partner to do same.

She was talking about marriage and relationship breakdowns through deception and infidelity which is not exactly the poly issue you speak of, though in a different way I guess she would apply it also as she was pointing out how people choose to deceive based on their perceived need for something a bit different to spark up their life. Her point was, while that difference in a new partner will amuse for awhile, just as it did in the existing relationship, the person would soon get to the same dissatisfied point with the new person, and begin all over again a process they have already lived. So in my way of thinking it does not apply to poly but make of it what you will.

C

 

[Guest]

 

[Ebonyfire]

She was talking about marriage and relationship breakdowns through deception and infidelity which is not exactly the poly issue you speak of, though in a different way I guess she would apply it also as she was pointing out how people choose to deceive based on their perceived need for something a bit different to spark up their life. Her point was, while that difference in a new partner will amuse for awhile, just as it did in the existing relationship, the person would soon get to the same dissatisfied point with the new person, and begin all over again a process they have already lived. So in my way of thinking it does not apply to poly but make of it what you will.

C

But in a poly relationship there can be no deception if that relationship is to flourish and grow.

The problem is that relationships need people in them, and the people involved have to do the work to make whatever type relationship they have work.

If the people within the relationship are not candid, then there will be cheating and there will be problems.

 

[catalina_francisco]

But in a poly relationship there can be no deception if that relationship is to flourish and grow.

The problem is that relationships need people in them, and the people involved have to do the work to make whatever type relationship they have work.

If the people within the relationship are not candid, then there will be cheating and there will be problems.

This is so true, and also so frequent the issue with soured intimacies whether between 2 or 3 or more.

C

 

[Ebonyfire]

Her point was, while that difference in a new partner will amuse for awhile, just as it did in the existing relationship, the person would soon get to the same dissatisfied point with the new person, and begin all over again a process they have already lived.

I have been single all My life, and a good part of that time poly, and I have found this statement to be true when it comes to serial monogamy type relationships.



snip... in my way of thinking it does not apply to poly but make of it what you will.

I think it would apply if the people involved still held on the the same notions that are typically in conventional relationships.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Her point was, while that difference in a new partner will amuse for awhile, just as it did in the existing relationship, the person would soon get to the same dissatisfied point with the new person, and begin all over again a process they have already lived.

I have been single all My life, and a good part of that time poly, and I have found this statement to be true when it comes to serial monogamy type relationships.



snip... in my way of thinking it does not apply to poly but make of it what you will.

I think it would apply if the people involved still held on the the same notions that are typically in conventional relationships.

That's true...disposable society and a bit like the child trying to decide which five sweets they will choose out of hundreds and believing they can have them all. Somewhere the flavour becomes less than satisfying.

C

 

[FungiUg]

But in a poly relationship there can be no deception if that relationship is to flourish and grow.

[...]

If the people within the relationship are not candid, then there will be cheating and there will be problems.

This is true of every relationship, poly or "monogamous". It's why I couldn't go into another monogamous relationship -- I just can't honestly do that. I'm not sure if I am "poly" (many lovers yes, but only one woman I am in love with), but even when I was in a monogamous relationship, honesty and openness were important.

Whenever I hear someone say they can't tell their partner something, I have mental alarm bells go off.

 

[Pure]

Re-reading some of the old postings in this thread gave a weird feeling.

As if this were a thread on chocolate, and the posters, most of them say:

Samples:

1)It's bad for you, very high in fat; I was once addicted and gained 30 lbs.

2)Me, too. It was awful, couldn't stay away.

3) I just tried it once, but when I stopped eating, I said, "I'm not going back, too dangerous." My advice, when you see a piece, run, don't walk away.

4)My story should be a lesson to all; first it was small pieces after lunch, then after dinner. Then the agony of waiting to the next lunch. This is what you're in for.

5) Remember it always comes to an end. I used to binge and vomit and binge some more, but it couldn't last.

6) Let me tell you I've followed a sane no chocolate diet for three years now, and some might call it dull, but I don't have the moodswings I used to. Friends, it's just not worth it.

7) I belong to the sane poly chocolate eaters, and we're very up front. In fact you only eat when in the company of others, so there are no secret indulgences. The problem is not chocolate but all the deception and skulking, trust me. Ok some are a little overwieght, but it's under control, and we all help each other with problems, because we're so honest.

====


Leaving aside the every honest Quint, no one says "I *loved* it." "Mmmm the taste." "I did it dozens of times and enjoyed it. " I would do it some more. A bit like Lives for Christ Testimonials, and not at all like Maury.

iow, lotsa people blowin' smoke around here.

 

[Daedalus77]

Re-reading some of the old threads gave a weird feeling.

As if this were a thread on chocolate, and the posters, most of them say:

Samples:

1)It's bad for you, very high in fat; I was once addicted and gained 30 lbs.

2)Me, too. It was awful, couldn't stay away.

3) I just tried it once, but when I stopped eating, I said, "I'm not going back, too dangerous." My advice, when you see a piece, run, don't walk away.

4)My story should be a lesson to all; first it was small pieces after lunch, then after dinner. Then the agony of waiting to the next lunch. This is what you're in for.

5) Remember it always comes to an end. I used to binge and vomit and binge some more, but it couldn't last.

6) Let me tell you I've followed a sane no chocolate diet for three years now, and some might call it dull, but I don't have the moodswings I used to. Friends, it's just not worth it.

7) I belong to the sane poly chocolate eaters, and we're very up front. In fact you only eat when in the company of others, so there are no secret indulgences. The problem is not chocolate but all the deception and skulking, trust me. Ok some are a little overwieght, but it's under control, and we all help each other with problems, because we're so honest.

====


Leaving aside the every honest Quint, no one says "I *loved* it." "Mmmm the tast." "I did it dozens of times and enjoyed it. " I would do it some more. A bit like Lives for Christ Testimonials, and not at all like Maury.

iow, lotsa people blowin' smoke around here.

I don't think anyone needed to say "it felt good while I was doing it" of course it felt good. The point is that there was more bad than good.

 

[Pure]

//The point is that there was more bad than good.//

And that Daedalus, is why is was so good!

 

[Shadowsdream]

Is there really a definative answer to the rightness or wrongness of infidelity?
My husband had an affair that I discovered when he was very deeply involved in it. Our relationship had always been open and there was no need for him to hide it or deny it. Dishonesty ended My marriage not infidelity.
But there is an upside. He is still with the lady that caught his imagination and I am still with the slave who caught Mine. In this case I must say without a doubt...infidelity brought more joy than pain.
Very seldom can one look through black and white lenses unless the glasses are their own. The world holds many shades of grey wrapped in its kalidescope of colours.