infidelities

[Ebonyfire]

Is there really a definative answer to the rightness or wrongness of infidelity?
My husband had an affair that I discovered when he was very deeply involved in it. Our relationship had always been open and there was no need for him to hide it or deny it. Dishonesty ended My marriage not infidelity.
But there is an upside. He is still with the lady that caught his imagination and I am still with the slave who caught Mine. In this case I must say without a doubt...infidelity brought more joy than pain.
Very seldom can one look through black and white lenses unless the glasses are their own. The world holds many shades of grey wrapped in its kalidescope of colours.

It is about time you finally showed up, SD.

Welcome back!

 

[Shadowsdream]

It is about time you finally showed up, SD.

Welcome back!

Why thank You My Friend!
I was beginning to think I would never regain access..but home at last!

 

[Pure]

Good points, SD, and welcome back.

What you said bears upon the hurt/harm issue. The momentary toting up, at the time an affair is discovered is not necessarily a reflection of a 'toting up' five years down the road. A blow up distorts things "I'm wronged I'll never forgive you" sort of thing.

Given that most break ups will have an unpleasant component, it could be argued that the quick and dirty [get out, you cheating xxx] is the *least* hurtful thing that could have happened.

A point I found missing in reviewing many of the old postings was the issue of 'why' the thing happens; the motives, the drives for sex and intimacy etc, or perhaps the desires to be found out, to have a crisis, or whatever.

J.

 

[Shadowsdream]

Good points, SD, and welcome back.

What you said bears upon the hurt/harm issue. The momentary toting up, at the time an affair is discovered is not necessarily a reflection of a 'toting up' five years down the road. A blow up distorts things "I'm wronged I'll never forgive you" sort of thing.

Given that most break ups will have an unpleasant component, it could be argued that the quick and dirty [get out, you cheating xxx] is the *least* hurtful thing that could have happened.

A point I found missing in reviewing many of the old postings was the issue of 'why' the thing happens; the motives, the drives for sex and intimacy etc, or perhaps the desires to be found out, to have a crisis, or whatever.

J.

It would take an explanation that could fill a book to explain the why's of infidelities. I see no motive in this case. Simply people who's needs change one degree at a time. Neither having any interest in changing. Neither losing more than they gain.
I was married when I was 16. Thirty seven years later I will hold a divorce decree in My hand next month if all goes well.
But once again I must differentiate between what caused the (final) destruction of the marriage. It was the dishonesty, the hiding what was a non issue in our relationship.
In the beginning he did regret being discovered, My boredom after the anger. He thought I would ask him to come back, when I didn't he asked to come back. There was nothing to come back to. Over the years we simply became different people than we were in our teens.
There is no right or wrong answer if One is looking for black and white.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Is there really a definative answer to the rightness or wrongness of infidelity?
My husband had an affair that I discovered when he was very deeply involved in it. Our relationship had always been open and there was no need for him to hide it or deny it. Dishonesty ended My marriage not infidelity.
But there is an upside. He is still with the lady that caught his imagination and I am still with the slave who caught Mine. In this case I must say without a doubt...infidelity brought more joy than pain.
Very seldom can one look through black and white lenses unless the glasses are their own. The world holds many shades of grey wrapped in its kalidescope of colours.

I do not think there are definitive answers to anything in life, even in mathematics the sum of 1 and 1 does not necessarily mean 2. However there needs to be some rules some black and whiteness in my world or it becomes impossible to make decisions, to base them on anything. Any action can have a motivation which seems correct if looked at it with a sympathetic eye.

In my world I have created black and white rules, they are necessary to make it possible to live the lifestyle (yes I know Pure you hate that word) I want to live. For example I have a rule about not wearing underwear, if broken there needs to be punishment; I have a rule about infidelity, if broken there needs to be punishment, like I have rules about lots of things.

It is a fact of life that something which is not good can lead to something positive, but more often than not it leads to negativity. My rules, my world, are based on what I want it to be, I do not push my world vision onto others, but I do expect those that are part of my world to uphold them. It is very simple, and very black and white, and also the only way it makes sense to me.

Simplicity and transparency is what I always look for, my way of non essentialism. It is when people complicate matters that things go wrong. It is when the little voice inside starts saying that there are reasons, excuses for doing things you know are not correct, that problems arise and clarity is lost.

In a relationship rules and agreements are being carried out between the parties involved, be it spoken or unspoken rules. All the parties involved know them, and cheating always is one of those rules that is part of it. Even in an open or semi open relationship cheating is a possibility, but it is breaking the rules. If you break the rules, then you live with the consequences.

Francisco.

 

[Shadowsdream]

I do not think there are definitive answers to anything in life, even in mathematics the sum of 1 and 1 does not necessarily mean 2. However there needs to be some rules some black and whiteness in my world or it becomes impossible to make decisions, to base them on anything. Any action can have a motivation which seems correct if looked at it with a sympathetic eye.

In my world I have created black and white rules, they are necessary to make it possible to live the lifestyle (yes I know Pure you hate that word) I want to live. For example I have a rule about not wearing underwear, if broken there needs to be punishment; I have a rule about infidelity, if broken there needs to be punishment, like I have rules about lots of things.

It is a fact of life that something which is not good can lead to something positive, but more often than not it leads to negativity. My rules, my world, are based on what I want it to be, I do not push my world vision onto others, but I do expect those that are part of my world to uphold them. It is very simple, and very black and white, and also the only way it makes sense to me.

Simplicity and transparency is what I always look for, my way of non essentialism. It is when people complicate matters that things go wrong. It is when the little voice inside starts saying that there are reasons, excuses for doing things you know are not correct, that problems arise and clarity is lost.

In a relationship rules and agreements are being carried out between the parties involved, be it spoken or unspoken rules. All the parties involved know them, and cheating always is one of those rules that is part of it. Even in an open or semi open relationship cheating is a possibility, but it is breaking the rules. If you break the rules, then you live with the consequences.

Francisco.

~~Very seldom can one look through black and white lenses unless the glasses are their own.~~

Life is about choices and consequences to a certain degree. In life all things are possible.

 

[Pure]

For example I have a rule about not wearing underwear,

Catalina, this is the sort of black and white rule, for women, which I view as *absolutely essential*. You're my kinda gal.**



PS: Are you really saying that one *never* ought to break a promise? (i.e., never morally justified)?


**
ADDED 8-31 9 pm edt: Yep I neglected to check the name at the end. Francisco of no underwear... hmmm. Well just so you have someone to wash your trousers!

Sorry all.

 

[catalina_francisco]

~~Very seldom can one look through black and white lenses unless the glasses are their own.~~

Life is about choices and consequences to a certain degree. In life all things are possible.

Life is about choices and consequences, and yes in life all things are possible.

But like I said, especially if you are Dominant, IMHO you need to be Black and White. My word needs to be honest and truthful. If I tell my partner tomorrow I want for breakfast a cup of coffee and a fried egg sunny side up, then she has to know for certain that that is the breakfast I am going to have.

If I tell her you are to have a diary, them she must know she needs to keep a diary. My word needs to be my bond, as does hers, the trust we have depends on it. And I need to know that my partner is truthful and honest and keeps her word. If not my day would be spent constantly checking up on her.

It is very simple A leads to B and not sometimes C or D or Z. D/s is a very simple 'game', like life is, overcomplicating matters does nothing but create a cloak under which many miscommunications and lies hide.

Pure I am not saying that people should keep promises; I am saying I keep to promises, as does Catalina, and my world exists out of black and white rules under which my partner and I live. If a person is unsure they are able to keep a promise, I think it safer they never make it in the first place then there is never the issue of betrayal of trust to undermine the word of their honour.

Francisco.
PS Catalina is also my kind of woman, which is why I married her and made her my property. But I am still not Catalina nor is she me although I realize it is often difficult to distinguish between my postings and hers, especially if one overlooks the name at the end of the posting.

PSS Sorry I seem to have gone back to my old habit of making long winded postings.

 

[Pure]

Hi Franciso.

Sorry about the mix up; maybe it was wish fulfillment; or too much X. I corrected it.

/Pure I am not saying that people should keep promises; I am saying I keep to promises, as does Catalina, and my world exists out of black and white rules under which my partner and I live. /

Sounds familiar old friend. You're not proposing rules applicable universally. You don't kill, but you don't have anything special to say if I do, except that you don't want to be around me.

OK, confining to you only. Are you really saying you would never break a promise? that for you such is a 'black and white rule'?

 

[catalina_francisco]

Hi Franciso.

Sorry about the mix up; maybe it was wish fulfillment; or too much X. I corrected it.

/Pure I am not saying that people should keep promises; I am saying I keep to promises, as does Catalina, and my world exists out of black and white rules under which my partner and I live. /

Sounds familiar old friend. You're not proposing rules applicable universally. You don't kill, but you don't have anything special to say if I do, except that you don't want to be around me.

OK, confining to you only. Are you really saying you would never break a promise? that for you such is a 'black and white rule'?

For the last 15 years I have not broken any promises. I have one weakness and that is an incredible bad short term memory, so I do tend to forget appointments, which is horrible, ask my friends and family. But for the rest yes I do not break promises. That is why I am extremely careful about what I commit to.

I am also aware of course that there can be influences outside of own control that can make a person break a promise. Natural disasters, family emergencies, war famine those kind of things but those are rare circumstances.

Francisco.

 

[Ebonyfire]

For the last 15 years I have not broken any promises. I have one weakness and that is an incredible bad short term memory, so I do tend to forget appointments, which is horrible, ask my friends and family. But for the rest yes I do not break promises. That is why I am extremely careful about what I commit to.

I am also aware of course that there can be influences outside of own control that can make a person break a promise. Natural disasters, family emergencies, war famine those kind of things but those are rare circumstances.

Francisco.

I have to agree Franscisco. I rarely make promises, and so when I do it means something.

 

[Pure]

Well Francisco, there's lotsa circumstances under which it might be moral** to break a promise, *aside from overwhelming outer influences like fire (which burns down the restaurant in which you promised to meet), war (whose battlelines block your movement as necesary to fulfil a promise), flood (which sweeps you far away from the site at which you were to carry out the promise.)

Indeed one situation, iirc correctly, was possibly agreed to by you.
There are wedding vows, 'to love, honor' stay with 'in sickness and in health.' Where the husband is abusive or disappears for ten years, it's generally held that the wife's promises become inoperative; she's free to leave, divorce, (or separate if catholic).

So situations of two mutually contingent/dependent promises--esp. those, which, like wedding vows, are not so, on the surface-- are among the obvious counterexamples to your proposed rigorous stance.
This is immediately relevant to the thread topic, btw.

J.



**according to many moral systems, perhaps including your own.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Well Francisco, there's lotsa circumstances under which it might be moral** to break a promise, *aside from overwhelming outer influences like fire (which burns down the restaurant in which you promised to meet), war (whose battlelines block your movement as necesary to fulfil a promise), flood (which sweeps you far away from the site at which you were to carry out the promise.)

Indeed one situation, iirc correctly, was possibly agreed to by you.
There are wedding vows, 'to love, honor' stay with 'in sickness and in health.' Where the husband is abusive or disappears for ten years, it's generally held that the wife's promises become inoperative; she's free to leave, divorce, (or separate if catholic).

So situations of two mutually contingent/dependent promises--esp. those, which, like wedding vows, are not so, on the surface-- are among the obvious counterexamples to your proposed rigorous stance.
This is immediately relevant to the thread topic, btw.

J.



**according to many moral systems, perhaps including your own.

Thanks to Delta airlines and their fabulous overbooking system I can answer you today instead of in a week.

We have had this discussion before Pure and between us the most we will ever achieve is to agree to disagree between us. Yes there are possible circumstances under which a promise can be broken or not kept.

That I do not think is an issue with almost anyone, we are only humans so yes people make mistakes and humans grow. I am not here to push my philosophy onto others or force my way of thinking onto anyone. I uphold my own rules in my own world.

Coming back to the thread matter which is infidelity I have stated often where I stand and what my opinions are about infidelity so I am not going to go down that familiar road again.

The only message I want to send out is that black and whiteness are an essential part of BDSM, clarity, transparency, honesty, trust are all keywords which should be part of any relationship but especially of a BDSM one.

Francisco.

 

[Pure]

Hi Francisco,

//That I do not think is an issue with almost anyone, we are only humans so yes people make mistakes and humans grow. I am not here to push my philosophy onto others or force my way of thinking onto anyone. I uphold my own rules in my own world.

Coming back to the thread matter which is infidelity I have stated often where I stand and what my opinions are about infidelity so I am not going to go down that familiar road again.

The only message I want to send out is that black and whiteness are an essential part of BDSM, clarity, transparency, honesty, trust are all keywords which should be part of any relationship but especially of a BDSM one.{pure's emphasis}//

Trying not to cover old ground.

There can't be an 'issue' _discussion_ if one party says, "it simply a matter of my tastes, for myself; my preference holds for me alone in 'my world'." You like ham sandwiches, fine; I like roast beef. There's not really anything to discuss.

Most people, however, make judgments about others, they say, "that's bad what he did to his wife," or 'he's despicable". They even generalize: "beating one's wife is bad." In those cases the person is *not simply saying "To my taste, my beating my wife is bad, in my world."

Fortunately your last para illustrates the problem nicely. Having said (in effect), "I only state my rules for myself", you now say
black and whiteness are an essential part of BDSM .

That is a statement that goes beyond rules for oneself. You do generalize, just like the next guy. Had you been consistent you could only say, "My personal view attributes 'black and white' to bdsm issues; that's their characteristic in my world. I have no idea if, for other people, bdsm can be, or is, other than that; each will decide according to his or her taste."**

Conclusion: "I give a personal view only, my own tastes," is not usually sustained in discussion. Claims about what others should see, do, etc are likely to be made at the drop of a hat, as Francisco does, in his last para. That's the only way there's anything interesting to talk about--you might say, an objective issue.

**If my proposal really is what you want to say, then there is not much further to say: Your taste is black/white bdsm; mine is gray/gray, and each is equally true in our respective worlds, which is all there is.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Pure we are here in a public forum, not a political debate. I am not a politician so do not feel that I need to make all my remarks politically correct. I leave that to politicians.

In this world most persons have opinions about almost anything and those get reflected in what they say and how they say it. Yes we all have a tendency to project our own thought patterns onto others.

So yes they are all my opinions and no I do not expect anyone else to uphold them but me and yes if anyone wants to be part of my world they will have to uphold my morals and ethics.

I am not a saint nor do I claim to be, actually I claim to be a sadistic little bastard and proud of being it.

The idea that every statement a person makes has to be politically correct and should be put in such a way that no one can or should be insulted by it is a very innocent view of the world.

Francisco.

 

[Pure]

Hi Francisco,

I cant make out what you're responding to, and how'political correctness' got into the discussion.

The point of my last post seems not to have gotten across, maybe because it's technical and in the jargon of philosophy, and may have been less than clear.

BUT there doesn't seem any interest in the topic of this thread, and we can't decide if you're a moral gentleman or a sadistic little bastard, here, by this means. You may be a moral gentleman with the persona of a sadistic little bastard, or a sadistic little bastard with the cyberpersona of a gentleman.

The general issue of truth, opennessand transparency in relationships is an interesting one, more general that the original topic; whether anyone wants to talk about it, I have no idea. Part of it is the old question, Should you have secrets from your mate?

J.

 

[catalina_francisco]

the answer to that is very simple, you should not. Having secrets is the first step in destroying the relationship in any relationship.

Francisco.
Ps maybe if we start a flame between us we can spark some interest in the thread.

 

[Pure]

well, I've gotta lotta singes, of late.... also being, at heart, the perfect gentleman....as you know!

J.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Well since we seem to have hijacked the thread anyway let’s have some fun.

We will start a discussion like the good old times and have a go at each other the gentlemen style. We will dual with words until we dazzle the stars out of the heavens to come down and applaud our efforts at immortality.

About being singed, I am sure you will act as always, stick true to yourself, fight your way through it and earn the respect of the ones that singed you.

Francisco.