Introducing Women's Erotica: a new subgenre of Erotica, and a necessary one

[flynn99]

I'm struggling with this thread.

The general idea has merit -- thinking about presentation as a way to search content. And emotional journey is a great example of presentation!

Adding "Women's" to the idea, though, is just confusing -- even as the original poster said, men can write emotional-based content (I flatter myself to think that I do, for example). And men can enjoy that too. Frankly, it feels somehow misandrist. Isn't it "emotional journey" you're talking about -- discarding confusion of gender labels?

But what really is 90 degrees off for me is that, as a category, it doesn't fit topographically. A proposed WE (EJ) category would contain, potentially, all the other categories. In that way, adding a category would be almost a meta-category of content where it's not possible to search for a type of content. The categories are about what's in a piece. The proposal is more about how a piece is presented.

Personally, I like the idea of a curated list or a tag in context of how the site is constructed today.

But if a tag, I'd propose that it not be gender-labeled -- the idea is about an approach to writing, not who it's written by or for... maybe "emotional journey"?

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Isn't it "emotional journey" you're talking about -- discarding confusion of gender labels?

I'm totally fine with that.

 

[HordHolm]

I do not really understand the problem.

There should simply be a category for stories the writer assume are suited to be read by woman. The discussion about how to define what is suited for women is from my view useless. From my view more is not neccessary.

Porn is mainly a male thing as also prostitution is. The main focus of porn and prostitution is the sexual act without any or less emotional binding. It is typically male to get sexual satisfaction from changeable counterparts, optic impressions and intercourse without or less emotional binding. I wrote "typically" as I know that there are also excemptions from that rule.

Thats all. That alone would help. Women with different needs will find what they look for in the other sectiuons. We may find something in the new section. I would not blame anybody for putting in a story which does not fit my taste. I am used to that LOL.

Yes, I am sure, that there wil be rants from other women that someone has put in some ugly mens fantasies but thats life.

In and of itself there isn't a problem. There should be a For Women category. But then there should also be a Bisexual category, for example. There should be a Lesbian Exhibitionist category. A Gay Romance category. A Crossdressing Voyeur Masturbation category. And so on.

However, if we look at the way the Site currently divides stories by category we see the following:

Technical - Audio, Illustrated, poetry, novels and novellas
Gender and Sexuality division - Transgender, Gay Male, Lesbian
By Kink - Mature, Exhibitionist/Voyeur, Loving Wives, Erotic Couplings, etc.
Other - Humour and Satire, How to, Reviews & Essays

The problem is to see how a For Women category would even fit into that without becoming the Romance category by another name. And yes, I know that is a stereotype, but that's how it would play out, I'm certain. If I write an emotionally driven same-sex romantic BDSM story with strong elements of exhibitionism and some heavy food fetishism, where should that fit? Is it Romance? Or if it is emotionally driven should it go into a For Women category? Or are those one and the same thing? Should it instead be categorised by the same-sex nature of the story? Or should it be categorised by the kink? It's already an issue, with many authors agonising over where their work should go, and yet another category won't make that issue easier. Now, of course, we could say 'give the authors the choice' and be done with it, and to an extent the Site follows that policy. But not always - they reserve the right to put submissions into categories they feel suits the submission best. At which point I might find that my emotionally-driven same-sex romantic exhibitionist BDSM story with a side of hummus is shifted away from the For Women category where I feel it belongs straight into Gay Male. And indeed, that's pretty much what I would expect to happen in this case. Which would be why I would also carefully add some tags to the submission that would give a more nuanced view of what the reader might expect.

Of course, the Site could allow us to post in multiple categories and that would solve most of the problems we have with this, but this isn't about to happen (along with the other issues with categories that have already been mentioned).

The other solution, of course, is for a reader to search by tags if they have anything more than the broadest of requirements.

 

[Lifestyle66]

I wrote the story "Unique Rewards of Yoga" (rated 3.41/297) and posted it to Loving Wives (where I now post all of my new stories.)

When my wife (a woman who enjoys emotional erotic stories) read my story, she paused half-way through it, saying "This is the best you've ever written!" (She gave it a 5, which she said it deserved.) But she was so excited reading the story, she fucked me on the living room floor before finishing it.

Sooo... What constitutes a well written, emotional "For Women" story? It depends on the woman reading it.

Try searching tags, reading more, and clue others into what you find by creating your public lists.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Is it Romance? Or if it is emotionally driven should it go into a For Women category? Or are those one and the same thing?

Romance is such a narrow rigid category. To suggest that anything emotionally driven (and I am not saying that you are suggesting, I know that you are only posing the question) should or could just be lumped with romance is extremely short sighted. I have read a few (high scoring) romances that are nearly or completely devoid of any emotion. They simply tick the boxes of monogamy, commitment, perfectly respectable characters and a happy ending. There are many emotionally driven stories that do not tick those boxes but are nearly impossible to find.

Furthermore, as we know there are generally two ways to submit a story on lit, first think of an idea, write it up and figure out where it goes, or second write specifically for a category. It's probably roughly 50/50 which method writers tend to use, so the lack of a category for any topic, not just emotionally driven, discourages those stories from being written in the first place.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

It's already an issue, with many authors agonising over where their work should go, and yet another category won't make that issue easier.

Yes it will make it easier. The agony is not so much "where should I put this?" as one can easily ask for and receive some good advice quickly. I've done it myself. The real agony is "there is no place for me to put this! god, not EC again??" Every new category will help that.

 

[HordHolm]

Romance is such a narrow rigid category. To suggest that anything emotionally driven (and I am not saying that you are suggesting, I know that you are only posing the question) should or could just be lumped with romance is extremely short sighted. I have read a few (high scoring) romances that are nearly or completely devoid of any emotion. They simply tick the boxes of monogamy, commitment, perfectly respectable characters and a happy ending. There are many emotionally driven stories that do not tick those boxes but are nearly impossible to find.

Furthermore, as we know there are generally two ways to submit a story on lit, first think of an idea, write it up and figure out where it goes, or second write specifically for a category. It's probably roughly 50/50 which method writers tend to use, so the lack of a category for any topic, not just emotionally driven, discourages those stories from being written in the first place.

I don't disagree with you, but then we can equally ponder how many bisexual stories aren't written, in the absence of such a category - and I saw a very cogent argument in favour of a Bisexual category last year, and it was a shame that I knew it would make no difference. As you say, they should all get categories.

 

[NancyVeeners]

I don't think her position defines a dividing line. I think she's just saying "Stories that meet this criteria are more popular with female readers" without addressing or judging what the opposite might look like.

Thank you Awkward(s) for this discussion. You are right here MD. This is not my opinion, it is what happens in 'general' Women's Fiction.
The good news about Women's Erotica is that--unlike 'general' Women's Fiction--I believe that men would like reading Women's Erotica.
At least, this is what happens to my small collection of stories, almost all of them qualifying as Women's Eritica--albeit not explicitly declared.
Best
NV

 

[NancyVeeners]

I don’t see where she actually asked for that, although it may be her intent.

As for the “new subgenre” she describes, yeah, a number of us have been writing that for years.

Thank you for this contribution Melissa.

You are right on both counts.

I did not invent the new subgenre, I just dubbed it Women's Erotica, adapting the term from the general 'Women's Erotica' definition and adopting the WFWA definition.

It is great (and not surprising) that you and others already write Women's Erotica. I'd like each of us proposes the best fitting story among hers or his so we create a small corpus of examples of stories in this new/old subgenre.

Some readers ask for these examples, and others would like the tag to find WE stories, which is after all one of the aims of a literary genre.

Best

NV

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Technical - Audio, Illustrated, poetry, novels and novellas
Gender and Sexuality division - Transgender, Gay Male, Lesbian
By Kink - Mature, Exhibitionist/Voyeur, Loving Wives, Erotic Couplings, etc.
Other - Humour and Satire, How to, Reviews & Essays

This is another indictment of the category system and how poorly it has been thought out and designed. The system can't even get it's dimensions straight. The entire category of Novels/Novellas could be replaced with simply putting word counts on the story card (!! hel-LO??). What makes a BDSM story suddenly a novel? The word count? Once it's over 40k words it is no longer BDSM? Facetious questions I know, but I'm making a point and that is that story length should not be it's own category. ANY category can have a long chaptered story. Indeed, most writers place their epic series into specific categories and not N/N anyways. Likewise, Audio and illustrated should not be categories. ANY story should be able to submit an audio track or a visual. An anal story done in audio should still be in anal. A horror story done with illustrations should still be in erotic horror. It's silly to move these to a grab bag category where anal or horror fans will miss it.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Every time I write a story here, I find myself struggling with what category to post it in. Novel-length lesbian romance; lesbian BDSM; horror poetry with a nonhuman character; lesbian romance with poetry in a fantasy setting with a nonhuman character and with cross-dressing; lesbian romance/horror; exhibitionist MFF group sex with BDSM and some dubious consent; epistolary lesbian sci-fi romance with a non-human character; novel-length lesbian relationship with a romance side-plot and BDSM elements.

Readers fragment by category; wherever I choose to post a story, I'm forgoing readers in other categories who'd have enjoyed those themes but didn't see it. Adding yet another category, which will have significant overlap with existing categories, seems like it would just exacerbate that fragmentation of readership.

I have faced this dilemma over and over again. Most of my stories cross categories. I often end up putting them in Novels and Novellas for lack of a better choice.

I was really torn over Queen of the Roller Derby. I am very proud of it. In my own estimation, it’s the best thing I’ve written. It is, essentially, a Lesbian coming of age story, but I think it’s a lot more than just basic.

Lesbian was the obvious choice for a category, but at 52+k words, it could certainly fit in Novels and Novellas.

I chose to post it in the latter. It would almost certainly have gotten more views in Lesbian, but I felt it deserved a wider, if not larger, audience. Was that the right call? I don’t know if there is a right call. I wanted people who did not ordinarily read lesbian stories to read it. But I probably failed to expose it to regular readers of lesbian stories who would have enjoyed it.

I don’t want to write for a niche audience. That is not the same as saying I want the largest possible readership. I hope to write stories that can be appreciated equally by an eighty year old straight German man and an eighteen year old queer woman of color in Canada.

I don’t see how an “Erotica For Women” category would serve my purposes.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I have faced this dilemma over and over again. Most of my stories cross categories. I often end up putting them in Novels and Novellas for lack of a better choice.

I was really torn over Queen of the Roller Derby. I am very proud of it. In my own estimation, it’s the best thing I’ve written. It is, essentially, a Lesbian coming of age story, but I think it’s a lot more than just basic.

Lesbian was the obvious choice for a category, but at 52+k words, it could certainly fit in Novels and Novellas.

I chose to post it in the latter. It would almost certainly have gotten more views in Lesbian, but I felt it deserved a wider, if not larger, audience. Was that the right call? I don’t know if there is a right call. I wanted people who did not ordinarily read lesbian stories to read it. But I probably failed to expose it to regular readers of lesbian stories who would have enjoyed it.

I don’t want to write for a niche audience. That is not the same as saying I want the largest possible readership. I hope to write stories that can be appreciated equally by an eighty year old straight German man and an eighteen year old queer woman of color in Canada.

I don’t see how an “Erotica For Women” category would serve my purposes.

And for crying out loud, if those are the kind of stories you want, go read Queen of the Roller Derby. Or Wild Birds of Maine. Or Oyster River…

 

[pink_silk_glove]

And for crying out loud, if those are the kind of stories you want, go read Queen of the Roller Derby. Or Wild Birds of Maine. Or Oyster River…

I have read QotRD and it's quite good. However, the only reason that I even knew that it was there was because I'd read you before and knew your style and abilities. The site's category and tags system did not help you at all.

And for the record, Fall and Rise is still the best thing that I've read on lit.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Adding or deleting categories entails the Admins going through MILLIONS of stories to repopulate the new category or reassigning the deleted category's stories.

No it doesn't. Old categories can stay just as they are or maybe closed to new submissions, and I really don't think that very many categories would potentially close if any, certainly none of the kink-based ones. As for new categories, they do not need to be back-populated. They just open for business and start filling. That in itself would take no admin at all, other than creating the new category which really is just a number index, snap and done.

Of course, some writers might like some of their old stories moved into new categories. There could be a one-time option for authors to move stories and there could be say a one or two year window on that. Even that, if it was coded correctly, would require very little admin.

 

[Lifestyle66]

No it doesn't. Old categories can stay just as they are or maybe closed to new submissions, and I really don't think that very many categories would potentially close if any, certainly none of the kink-based ones. As for new categories, they do not need to be back-populated. They just open for business and start filling. That in itself would take no admin at all, other than creating the new category which really is just a number index, snap and done.

Of course, some writers might like some of their old stories moved into new categories. There could be a one-time option for authors to move stories and there could be say a one or two year window on that. Even that, if it was coded correctly, would require very little admin.

We can disagree as to the extent which other authors here might burden the Admins with their requests to move and change other things. But as evidenced, we're seeing here yet again for ANOTHER category because "The existing categories don't meet MY unique needs, which I know many others would want, too."

I'm more of a mind to appreciate what I have, rather than always wanting more. So, I appreciate the efforts the Admins ARE making to allow us to create and share our own lists, and evolving the site with their efforts to develop collaborative stories, interactive stories, and even create our own customized series of our stories in our page.

I just find it ..... when authors here say "They won't do anything about it!", when the proof is there that the Admins HAVE done something about it, just not what some demand. But complainers will always complain.

"Keep up the good work Admins! Your efforts are appreciated."

 

[AG31]

I agree that the emotional aspect of erotica is a growing and increasingly desired subgenre. But is it perhaps a bit limiting to call it women's erotica? Why not simply have a gender neutral emotional erotica name. Men's emotion is I think even more ignored and repressed than women. And this is not to downplay the necessity of women's voices rising higher in modern culture, it's just a thought.

I write from a female empowering perspective as part of my journey to living it in my real life. But I can rarely find a story that speaks of men's emotional journey. Or perhaps it would be better to let that one develop on its own as a separate subgenre.

Wouldn't that just exacerbate the dilemmas authors are always facing about where to post? What do you do if your gay male or BDSM or IT story has a strong emotional element?

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I just find it ..... when authors here say "They won't do anything about it!", when the proof is there that the Admins HAVE done something about it, just not what some demand. But complainers will always complain.

How many people have been asking for new categories? Tons!
How many people have been asking for word counts on the story card? Almost every one of us!
How many people have been asking for more than 60 characters for description blurb and a few more tags? A fair number.
How many people have been asking for interactive chyoo stuff? A few.

And not to say that adding story lists and interactive stories aren't good or welcome, but look what the populace is asking for repeatedly the most and also look what is far easier to implement. And what does lit give us? The stuff that the least people are asking for which also happens to be the hardest to implement. It just doesn't make much sense.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

How many people have been asking for new categories? Tons!
How many people have been asking for word counts on the story card? Almost every one of us!
How many people have been asking for more than 60 characters for description blurb and a few more tags? A fair number.
How many people have been asking for interactive chyoo stuff? A few.

And not to say that adding story lists and interactive stories aren't good or welcome, but look what the populace is asking for repeatedly the most and also look what is far easier to implement. And what does lit give us? The stuff that the least people are asking for which also happens to be the hardest to implement. It just doesn't make much sense.

Sadly, it does make sense if one rejects the reasonable yet overwhelmingly disproven-by-experience notion that Literotica admins care about our opinions or needs. And I can say that I finally came to understand their reasoning. There are way too many authors and way too many stories being submitted every day. Way too many. Half the authors could quit and there would still be too many stories published every day.
It's impossible to have any leverage in a situation where we shower Literotica and its readers with massive amounts of free new content every day.

 

[Hypnobitch01]

Even so, the word perpetuates the myth that the clitoris actually exists and isn't just an invention of women to make men try harder.

Damn it, you caught us!

 

[Lifestyle66]

How many people have been asking for new categories? Tons!
How many people have been asking for word counts on the story card? Almost every one of us!
How many people have been asking for more than 60 characters for description blurb and a few more tags? A fair number.
How many people have been asking for interactive chyoo stuff? A few.

And not to say that adding story lists and interactive stories aren't good or welcome, but look what the populace is asking for repeatedly the most and also look what is far easier to implement. And what does lit give us? The stuff that the least people are asking for which also happens to be the hardest to implement. It just doesn't make much sense.

I think you are exaggerating the numbers in your own mind.

When you consider the NUMBER of authors who are writing and submitting stories here every day, I doubt that even 50% are involved in these forums. And the number of those who are asking for new categories is far less than that 50%! I know I'm not asking for new categories. I personally prefer fewer categories to potentially gain more views.

I find my own issues with the turds in LW who can't READ the description, and insist "extra-marital fun, sharing" stories belong in "Fetish", and they leave shitty comments on my stories! I vote for a literacy test before allowing anyone to click on the stories! Then force the reader to actually READ the story, without skimming and 1-bombing it! But, hey, we all have our wish lists of site improvements.


The site Admins are focusing their efforts on something far more important to them: Expanding the site's capabilities which differentiate it from others!

Tweaking the "old lists" to make a few authors feel better is lower on their list of priorities. And changing that 60-character limit of descriptions and number of tags is FAR MORE WORK than you'd imagine. The ripple effect of redesigning their database descriptions in multiple databases and changing all affected webpages would likely take months of dedicated work and testing, and even then, there'd be glitches causing user frustrations to push their readers away.


So, why aren't you using their new ability to create your own customized public list and publish that? Does it take too much WORK? The Admins handed you a solution, it's just not EXACTLY what you and a few others demand.

 

[Lifestyle66]

For those of you who don't understand the whole "Reading Lists" stuff I mention,

Go to your authors page of stories and look on the left column for "Reading Lists". When you click on that, at the top by the "Reading Lists" title click the plus button to create/add a new list. You fill in the title and description of your list and click one of the two selections for Private or Public. Once you create the reading list, you can go back to your own stories to quickly add them by selecting the flag on the far right of each story's title and check the box to add it to your new list. And if you're reading someone else's story and want to add it, go to that story's first page and to the right of the title click the "Bookmark" flag to select your list.

Via an anonymous browser access to LitE, search for your own author name and you'll see if you have lists available. (Mine is still not available, because things tend to take a day here to post publicly.) But you can click on those lists and copy & past the links anywhere else for others to enjoy (as I did with THBGato's list previously.)

If anyone really wants a "For Women" subcategory, take the lead and create such a list yourself, and via a forum thread, ask others to send you links to appropriate stories which you could then add for others interested in your subcategory.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

And changing that 60-character limit of descriptions and number of tags is FAR MORE WORK than you'd imagine.

No it's not. Hardly.

So, why aren't you using their new ability to create your own customized public list and publish that? Does it take too much WORK? The Admins handed you a solution, it's just not EXACTLY what you and a few others demand.

because it won't help ME find any new stories. Some day when I have the time and inclination I just may well make some lists of others that I like.

 

[summer_reine]

Wouldn't that just exacerbate the dilemmas authors are always facing about where to post? What do you do if your gay male or BDSM or IT story has a strong emotional element?

Fair point. I guess it depends on what the author most wants to be their focus and intended audience. Tags might work for the distinction. But I'm new here and tend to stick to one genre so it hasn't been an issue for me yet.

 

[SimonDoom]

No it's not. Hardly.



because it won't help ME find any new stories. Some day when I have the time and inclination I just may well make some lists of others that I like.

Reach out to 10 or more authors who are like minded on what they are looking for, come up with a joint list, and put it somewhere. You should be able to net at least 50 new stories to read in short order, with more to come as others join the group and add more stories to the list.

 

[LonRivers]

I would love to read more erotica from a woman's point of view and written by women. I find them actually more interesting and inciteful. In some cases their descriptions are more honest and not so over inflated, whereas male authors, not all, but most tend to just go with sex, sex, and more sex.

As a man, I love to detail the love two people may have for each other or how they interact outside of the bedroom or aside from having sex. I can write just sex, that is not a problem. Random sex is still a good part of a lot of stories, but I like to keep that for when I just want to kick out a quick story.