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numbers and statistics

First I would start by quoting “Gift of fear” by Gavin de Becker page 9.
… we civilised Americans who kill women and children with the most alarming frequency. In [sad] fact, if a full Jumbo jet crashed into a mountain killing every one onboard, and if that happened every month, month in and month out, the number of people killed still would not equal the number of women murdered by their husband and boyfriends each year…

Interesting numbers on online “cheating”, I do not agree with the statements made in these links they are just the statistics Temptress_1960 asked for.
http://www.cheating-spouse-check.com/statistics.htm
http://www.infidelitycheck.org/statistics.htm

Statistics about violent crimes and cheating, and again I do not stand behind the remarks made in these sites.

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/td/academy/bsu/homicide.pdf
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/intimates.htm#intgrel
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/ipv.htm

A nice quote:
An estimated 876,340 violent victimizations against women by intimate partners occurred during 1998 down from 1.1 million in 1993

http://law.anu.edu.au/criminet/tprov.html#passion
www.scotland.gov.uk/stats/sss/docs/sss.pdf

I hope this gives you enough material to study the statistics by if not let me know and I will send you more, There is a ton of material on statistics on crimes and the reasons behind crimes.


Now to top this all of a quote of this site:
http://www.lawsite.ca/WLSC/Angel808_w.htm
V. The Criminal Law and Juries
In the criminal law, as in other fields, the rules were initially developed by English judges to deal with situations they experienced and understood. That tradition of law made by males in their own image continued in this country with both judge-made common law and legislation. Not only our substantive laws but also our legal processes, including the jury, were developed on male models.
We all think that we know what murder is. We don't. Not all killings are criminal homicides; for example, some are accidents and some are self-defense. As a young teacher, a section of the Texas Penal Code in effect in 1971 stunned me. It provided: "Homicide is justifiable when committed by the husband upon one taken in the act of adultery with the wife, provided the killing takes place before the parties to the act have separated." Under traditional common law, a husband who caught his wife in the act of adultery had adequate provocation to partially excuse or partially justify him, the reasonable man, for losing his cool. His killing was reduced from murder to manslaughter. Here was an instance of Texas and at least three other American states, Georgia, New Mexico and Utah, going even one better. They found the husband's killing totally justified, resulting in a verdict of not guilty of murder or any other kind of homicide. Of course, this doctrine did not apply to wives killing under such circumstances. The Texas statute taught me that words, including murder and manslaughter, mean "what we choose them to mean."

Edited to add my name.
Francisco.
 
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Catalina and or Francisco,

//I hope this gives you enough material to study the statistics by if not let me know and I will send you more, There is a ton of material on statistics on crimes and the reasons behind crimes. //

IOW, "if you don't believe me, sort through a ton of material to find something to back up MY claim." Thanks, prof. In short, nothing you've posted indicates that 'cheating' is an especially dangerous thing to do. Let's say, as compared to 'talking back' to your husband. Or saying you are leaving. Or driving a car.

These citations of yours are pretty much a smokescreen aimed at the uninitiated, to cover the absence of anything to prove your point.

From one of the sites you mentioned

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/ipv.htm


//The number of female victims of intimate violence declined from 1993 to 1998. In 1998 women experienced an estimated 876,340 violent offenses at the hands of an intimate, down from 1.1 million in 1993.

In both 1993 and 1998, men were victims of about 160,000 violent crimes by an intimate partner. //


Citations of abuse against women do not distinguish, the 'innocent', those 'accused' or believed to be cheating, etc. It's possible that homes where the wife 'cheats' are those where she's less intimidated or terrorized. So enumeration of abusive households and incidents would not capture or indicate those where there is 'cheating.'

This jumbo jet stuff is about abuse.

I don't doubt there are crimes of passion, killing of woman and/or lover, but you've given no figures to enable comparison. Maybe you can find them--- obviously long AFTER making your claims.

I do find it very odd that you want to use these to warn against cheating. Many abusive murders are committed when a woman tries to leave in the aboveboard way you mentioned. "Let's go our separate ways." I wonder if you cite statistis to these women as a way of discouraging them from LEAVING. It's pretty damn dangerous, after all.

J.
 
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I forgot to add my name at the bottom so here is my reply to you. Have you looked through the other links I have posted?

You might want to take a look at the statistics given by the FBI or the Bureau of Justice.

Again if you are interested in more numbers let me know. But first before commenting read the statistics especially the report of the FBI.

So before you start up a smokescreen and try to discredit numbers that are not given by me but by USA institutions. Under homicide against intimates falls crimes of passion. Now to understand the numbers correctly go through the FBI report that explains how the system works and explains more in to depth the reasons for homicide. I did not cut out any part of them or quote them especially since I knew that someone would try to discredit the numbers simply because they do not agree with them.

Francisco.
 
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Pure said:
Catalina,

//I hope this gives you enough material to study the statistics by if not let me know and I will send you more, There is a ton of material on statistics on crimes and the reasons behind crimes. //

In short, nothing you've posted indicated that 'cheating' is an especially dangerous thing to do. Let's say, as compared to 'talking back' to your husband. Or saying you are leaving. Or driving a car. Citations of abuse against women do not distinguish, the 'innocent', those 'accused' or believed to be cheating, etc. It's possible that homes where the wife 'cheats' are those where she's less intimidated or terrorized. So enumeration of abusive households and incidents would not capture or indicate those where there is 'cheating.'

This jumbo jet stuff is about abuse.

I don't doubt there are crimes of passion, killing of woman and/or lover, but you've given no figures to enable comparison.

I do find it very odd that you want to use these to warn against cheating. Many abusive murders are committed when a woman tries to leave in the aboveboard way you mentioned. "Let's go our separate ways." I wonder if you cite statistis to these women as a way of discouraging them from LEAVING. It's pretty damn dangerous, after all.

J.
Click to expand...

Sorry to disappoint you Pure, but true to my word I have not posted this previous post, 'twas Master. But as you addressed me, and spoke about hoicides in relation to women leaving thier husbands I decided I would break my rule this once....extenuating circumstances you understand.

Yes, in DV, and I emphasise, DV relationships, itis fact that more women are killed immediately or soon after leaving thier spouse, but this cannot be related to average relationships where abuse has not previously been a factor. But since we are discussing DV now and my professional involvement in counselling women subject to abuse, I will digress to answer your statement about citing the statistics to discourage them from leaving.

As a feminist counsellor, where the client is seen as the expert in their life, I would never encourage or discourage her to do anything, selfishly in part because I do not want it on my conscience if she follows advice I give and ends up a stat. But yes, I do give them the facts, and I speak about actual instances and circumstances, and I answer their questions as to signs to look for in my experience, my perception of the perpetrator they describe, and steps to take to maximise their protection both staying in the relationship, or out of it....and then I support her informed decision either way she goes and do my best to secure her safety, even as far as setting up a checking system in extreme risk cases with steps devised by both of us as to what I am going to do if the system indicates she may be in danger.

Many clients are under the impression if they stay they are no longer welcome to counselling and support, and unfortunately I have worked with counsellors who have told them not to come back until they have left their abusive partner. That is not my way, nor is it my way to sugarcoat their situation when all she tells me indicates a perpetrator out of the normal code of perpetrators, in other words, the ones at most risk of killing their partner, or even if I see signs the woman may be driven to killing him. I speak openly and honestly, deal in facts, give unlimited time, and go beyond the expected norm as a counsellor because their lives, like all lives matter to me. I have been fortunate they appreciate my unusual and open approach and refer even more of their friends to me, emphasising they see no one but me as I am trustworthy. And yes, my support has seen me sometimes threatened by a client's partner as a way to try and regain full control. It does not stop me from providing the best, most responsible support I know how to, and yes I am passionate about the work and don't apologise for it, so sue me if that upsets your view and makes you feel I have too high a code again. It is me and I don't need to be someone I am not.

Most of these women have had a multitude of bad experiences with so called professionals who get their stuff from a book and go home to their safe life at the end of the day without a second thought. I don't operate that way and I am pleased I don't. And surprisingly for most, I also have time to spare a thought for the perpetrator and advocate for more understanding and work with them in a concerted and realistic effort to end the abuse. Band aid actions are short sighted and do not decrease DV. I don't see anyone as being inherently bad, so realise the perpetrator has his reasons for being the way he is, but that does not excuse or condone his behaviour, just provides a real look at the problem. And before anyone is mistaken, it also does not place blame on the victim....that is a simplistic, out-dated, and easy myth to believe.

So I hope that answers your question Pure.

Catalina
 
Francisco said,

//Again if you are interested in more numbers let me know.//

I don't see any stats relevant to your claims about cheating.

Yes give us more numbers, but let a few of them be relevant to your points. I concede there's lots of abuse of women.

J.
 
So you have read through a 140 page report of the FBI in 10 minutes.

Do your own researching I gave you the material now take the time to read through it and if you do not want to fine but do not expect others to do your reading.

Francisco
 
Catalina said,

Pure asked:

[I wonder if you cite statistis to these women as a way of discouraging them from LEAVING. It's pretty damn dangerous, after all.]

Catlina:

//Sorry to disappoint you Pure, but true to my word I have not posted this previous post, 'twas Master. But as you addressed me, and spoke about hoicides in relation to women leaving thier husbands I decided I would break my rule this once....extenuating circumstances you understand.

Yes, in DV, and I emphasise, DV relationships, itis fact that more women are killed immediately or soon after leaving thier spouse, but this cannot be related to average relationships where abuse has not previously been a factor. But since we are discussing DV now and my professional involvement in counselling women subject to abuse, I will digress to answer your statement about citing the statistics to discourage them from leaving.

As a feminist counsellor, where the client is seen as the expert in their life, I would never encourage or discourage her to do anything, selfishly in part because I do not want it on my conscience if she follows advice I give and ends up a stat. But yes, I do give them the facts, and I speak about actual instances and circumstances, and I answer their questions as to signs to look for in my experience, my perception of the perpetrator they describe, and steps to take to maximise their protection both staying in the relationship, or out of it [...]

So I hope that answers your question Pure.//


[670 words]

I think you're saying 'no.'

If that's the case, why do you and or Francisco cite statistics in order to discourage cheating. Why not emphasize "steps to take to maximize protection...."?

J.
 
Francisco said


So you have read through a 140 page report of the FBI in 10 minutes.

Do your own researching I gave you the material now take the time to read through it and if you do not want to fine but do not expect others to do your reading.

Francisco

Let's see. YOU state a claim about cheating and danger of murder.

You say, in effect, "Buried in the 140 page report are number to support my claim. Find them."

Very sloppy, Francisco.

And transparent.

Had you any numbers from that report about cheating and murder, you'd post them; but you don't.

People will draw their own conclusions.

Mine: The murder-of-cheaters thing was a bit of grandstanding made without having any solid evidence to back it up. It's like those who hype up internet dating and murder. (Yes, there have been a couple.)

You hoped your credibility in the 'abuse' area would somehow cover you.

J.
 
Francisco:

//This is for the people who are actually interested in the subject and take the time to read through dreary reports.

http://mpdc.dc.gov/news/pubs/pdf/homicidereport.pdf//

Lots of smokesreen. No evidence. 1) IF you're familiar with the report and 2) IF it had anything to document your claims about cheating and murder, I'm sure you'd have quoted.

It appears 1) or 2) or both are not the case, and the little slight about those 'actually interested' wont cover up your laziness in documentation and evidence production..

J.
 
Pure said:
Pure asked:

[I wonder if you cite statistis to these women as a way of discouraging them from LEAVING. It's pretty damn dangerous, after all.]

I think you're saying 'no.'

If that's the case, why do you and or Francisco cite statistics in order to discourage cheating. Why not emphasize "steps to take to maximize protection...."?

J.
Click to expand...

Pure, you are having problems here aren't you. I clearly stated I give women the facts, statistics included, so they make an informed choice relevant to their own circumstances, then I support their decision in the best way I can even if risking myself inadvertently. So the answer is not 'no', and I am surprised one who goes on and on about the necessity to apprecialte gray areas can't appreciate that.

As to why we quote stats to discourage cheating. Well for myself, and I believe Master, we have not volunteered statistics until challenged for figures, so then played to the 'must see proof' element. As to using them to discourage cheating...I believe we have both said anyone who cheats is free to do so, only we do not want to be involved in the situation for our own reasons as is our right, the same as cheating is theirs. I have also mentioned I do not have a problem with it infringing on my friendships and relationships with others, just I do not choose to be a part of a 3 or more way split. Even before Master, I felt I was able to find enough candidates from the single set to leave the committed to their own devices. I didn't have to take someone elses left over crumbs you know, nor would I.

As to steps to maximise safety for cheaters. Well to me that is not a legitimate way I would see to spend my time when there are so many people who do nothing to perpetuate the abuse they are forced to live with. As distasteful as it is, we often have to make choices, and if you are going to say choose which is more worth the time and effort because you are only one person, I will choose the innocent over the self inflicted anyday...is a matter of simple economics and professionalism to me. I am not one to try and set myself up for burn out and realise I cannot as a mere mortal be all things to all beings at once, so I choose where to delegate my energies.

Catalina
 
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Since someone is too lazy to read here are some interesting quotes, to wet your appetite.

The Varieties of Homicide and Its Research
Proceedings of the 1999 Meeting of the Homicide Research Working Group
FBI Academy, Quantico, Virginia

page 68
According to the reports of battered wives, battering husbands, and friends and family of both parties, physical violence is a punishment inflicted by husbands on wives they suspect of sexual infidelity (Daly & Wilson, 1988; Dobash & Dobash, 1979).

Page 69
According to Daly and Wilson (1988), Dickemann (1981), Buss (1988), and others, men have evolved several strategies designed to deter their spouses from committing adultery, ranging from vigilance to violence. At the most abstract level, men can control their wives by conferring benefits, by inflicting costs, or both. Not all men possess resources that might be used to confer benefits, and so these men are predicted to be especially prone to using violence, or the threat of violence, to control their partner's sexuality.


Page 70
An alternative evolutionary theory proposes that men have evolved specific homicide modules, including a spousal homicide module (Buss & Duntley, 1998). According to this theory, there have been some historical circumstances in which killing an unfaithful spouse, or one who has defected from the relationship, might have been adaptive. An infidelity by the wife might cause a man to devote 20 or more years of effort to another man's children, and the public discovery would inflict substantial reputational damage on him. Because evolution by selection operates on a relative metric, one man's loss of a wife is an intrasexual competitor's gain. According to Evolved Homicide Module Theory, although some instances of wife killing may be "slips" or "epiphenomena," most are intentional and designed products of the evolved homicide mechanisms.

Page 72 till page 76 discuss the numbers in question.
Click to expand...
Now if you want more data read it yourself, I have given enough material by now to support our claims. I expect you to find something else flawed with this because you simply can not admit when you are wrong.

Francisco.
 
some more data

Intimate Partner Homicide:
A Review of the Male Proprietariness and the Self-Defense Theories
Geris Serran1 & Philip Firestone1,2

http://courseweb.edteched.uottawa.ca/psy3171/PersonalWP/Spousal homicide review article1.pdf

Page 4

Jealousy appears to be the leading homicide motive in many studies, often caused by known or suspected adultery or the woman terminating the relationship. In their standardized homicide reporting, police in Canada identify one pertinent motive from their standard lists, which include categories such as “argument/quarrel”, “anger/hatred”, “general domestic”; in 1991-92, 52% of the intimate homicides were attributed by the police to an argument or quarrel and a further 24% to jealousy (Wilson & Daly, 1994).
Block and Christakos (1995) examined 2556 intimate partner homicides that occurred in Chicago over a 29-year period, and found sexual jealousy was a motive in up to 19% of male offenders who killed their former common-law partners and extramarital affairs resulted in up to 20% of male offenders who killed their ex-girlfriends.

Francisco.

I can add more not so hard to find data and numbers on this. At least for the ones that take time to actually read a report.
 
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Francisco,

More citations, no evidence of claims.

Francisco citing
unspecified author:

An alternative evolutionary theory proposes that men have evolved specific homicide modules, including a spousal homicide module (Buss & Duntley, 1998). According to this theory, there have been some historical circumstances in which killing an unfaithful spouse, or one who has defected from the relationship, might have been adaptive. An infidelity by the wife might cause a man to devote 20 or more years of effort to another man's children, and the public discovery would inflict substantial reputational damage on him.

I'll comment on this below.

[Francisco:}
Page 72 till page 76 discuss the numbers in question.

That's coy. Again if they support your claim, just cite them. If not, cut the smoke and mirrors.



Now if you want more data read it yourself, I have given enough material by now to support our claims. I expect you to find something else flawed with this because you simply can not admit when you are wrong.

I see no data at all to support your claims.

Everyone agrees, it's far from uncommon for a man to murder an unfaithful spouse.

An unfaithful spouse, if discovered is in some danger.

What you suggested, however, was some special danger re unfaithfulness. To put it differently, if your claim makes any sense, it have to be *comparative* of dangers.

Now to your evolutionary speculations:

Note the phrase "[killing] one who has defected from the relationship." This would cover separated or divorced spouses, and also, I argue, spouses intending to go that route."

So it seems to me that the straightforward approach,
"Honey, I'd like a divorce, and I want primary custody"
would be of extreme danger. The man's investment in his offspring is severely threatened. There would, I submit, be a danger.

Possibly more than that of having an affair, given that it may not be discovered. We have no numbers.

If discovered, you have no numbers to enable a comparison.

If everything went above board, through a separation, the same evolutionary facts indicate jeopardy.

So you've given no reason for the Cheater to be especially wary about being murdered, as compared to another {Added: someone taking another, perhaps more overt and straightforward approach}.

J.
 
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It seems you can not read at all, I am very worried about you Pure what is the matter. You seem to have lost it completely. Can you not simply give up read through the documentation and learn for once to admit when you are wrong.

And I do not have to use any coy considering the amount of data, reports and scientific studies I have backing me up.

I however from you have only seen the same argument over and over.

I wonder can you not simply open up the file's and links I give you, go to the pages I have told you and look them up. In any case I will repeat my last entry just for you to read carefully and I will make the numbers in bold so you can read them.

Jealousy appears to be the leading homicide motive in many studies, often caused by known or suspected adultery or the woman terminating the relationship. In their standardized homicide reporting, police in Canada identify one pertinent motive from their standard lists, which include categories such as “argument/quarrel”, “anger/hatred”, “general domestic”; in 1991-92, 52% of the intimate homicides were attributed by the police to an argument or quarrel and a further 24% to jealous. (Wilson & Daly, 1994).
Block and Christakos (1995) examined 2556 intimate partner homicides that occurred in Chicago over a 29-year period, and found sexual jealousy was a motive in up to 19% of male offenders who killed their former common-law partners and extramarital affairs resulted in up to 20% of male offenders who killed their ex-girlfriends.

Since you wanted to know the authors of my previous quote.
Todd K. Shackelford, Division of Science--Psychology, Florida Atlantic University,
2912 College Avenue, Davie, FL 33314
David M. Buss, Department of Psychology, University of Texas at Austin, Austin, TX 78712
Jay Peters, School of Social Work, University of Maine, Orono, ME 04469

Francisco.
 
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Stephen Jay Gould would have a field day with the evolutionary homicide argument, that's all I know.

Chances of Netzach being offed by some thugs hired by marriedman's long suffering wife vs. being offed by self in the dead of long Midwestern Winter?

I'd call it off because of guilt/bad loooong before that would even occur to me.
 
Hi Catalina and Francisco.

I will use 'you' for either or both of you on these stats issues, though many of the postings seems to be Francisco's.

How silly of me to want you to post evidence to back up your claims. You complain that I don't read through 200 page documents you're too lazy to cull from.

One of your postings explicitly makes the same point as an argument I proposed.


Jealousy appears to be the leading homicide motive in many studies, often caused by known or suspected adultery or the woman terminating the relationship. In their standardized homicide reporting, police in Canada identify one pertinent motive from their standard lists, which include categories such as “argument/quarrel”, “anger/hatred”, “general domestic”; in 1991-92, 52% of the intimate homicides were attributed by the police to an argument or quarrel and a further 24% to jealous. (Wilson & Daly, 1994).

Notice that, under jealousy, it includes both "suspected adultery" [which would include no actual affair] and "woman terminating the relationship."

So if a woman simply says, "George, look we've tried; it's not working and I'm leaving; I want a divorce." she provokes _jealousy_ and thus incurs some danger; she could be among the 24% of intimate homicides Wilson and Daly attribute to 'jealous.'

There's been no clear evidence presented that having an affair, even if discovered, creates a risk significantly greater than saying "I'm leaving."

Notice too, that the 52% attributed to quarrels could equally be quarrels about the state of the relationship or ending it; they are not necessarily or even primarily about affairs.

Again you've presented no data indicating an especial danger to the woman, of having affairs, viewed in comparative terms (dangers of other courses of action, some very aboveboard). And this danger would even be less the case, if she is not discovered (i.e., no quarrel, no jealousy).

Some of the nastiest wife murders I've read of, have a 'jealous' husband who has a baseless idea. One might well say, given a pathologically and violently jealous male, the woman might as well be hung for a sheep as a goat. Thus the evidence presented is consistent with the view that having the real affair may not have any different result (in risk) from staying 'pure' since [for a certain type of deranged partner] she'll be accused--maybe even murdered-- anyway.

I'm glad you're doing your homework, even if it's AFTER making the claims. It's progress that you're now citing stats about jealousy-related murders, as opposed to simple abuse, but your claim about any special danger of affairs is still without any evidential basis.

Any way, you've been caught out; the hundreds of pages you want everyone to read apparently don't contain much to help you, and as above, can be interpreted as consistent with, if not supportive of, my point (no evidence of a special link between affairs and murder.)

Best,

J.
 
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Thank you for posting the links, catalina & Francisco.

I will read the pdf files after I re-download Acrobat; the copy I have is not working. When I have the time, with my slow dial-up connection, I'll do that.

I did read the other links.

What I notice is that many refer to "suspected affairs" and "sexual jealousy" as a motive. From other reading I've done, I gather that facts don't have much effect on those two factors. Isn't it the case that in an abusive relationship, just the suspicion of flirting or infidelity, no matter how unfounded, can lead to violence?

I use the abusive male example, because that is more common.

In the literature I've read, simple things like wearing a "too revealing" dress, being a few minutes late coming home from the store, or smiling pleasantly at another man are excuses for abuse because of infidelity. How does one protect oneself from someone who is irrationally violent? No matter what you do, he will still see it the way he wants to.

In a way, the idea of "cheating can lead to violence and murder" smacks of the whole "You provoked me, that's why I hit you" justification.
 
HI Tempress,

You are correct in your assumption that a lot of the data is based on "suspected affairs" and "sexual jealousy" as a motive. Although violence in a domestic situation which of course homicide of your spouse can be classified of, makes indeed the connection between irrationally violence and abuse the data is not necessarily about abuse or domestic violence it is simple the data on intimate homicide.

So yes there is no protection against abusive relationships but this is not data about abusive relationships, although it is related of course.

Francisco
 
I don't see how fidelity improves your chances of surviving a marriage.

If your spouse was honest to God the kind of person that would kill you for having an affair, they, like Othello, would also be the kind of person who'd kill you if they *thought* you were having an affair.

Ergo, whether you fuck around or not, you're in trouble with that kinda guy.
 
Pure really you have not done your homework. Most of the data I have posted here is based on the research done by Block and Christakos (1995), by Wilson & Daly (1994), Daly & Wilson (1988), Dobash & Dobash, (1979). and by “The Varieties of Homicide and Its Research”. All of which can be found back in the very first post I made. And all are mentioned in the FBI report which in effect is "The Varieties of Homicide and Its Research". I do my homework before making claims, not like others.

Your childish attempts at trying to discredit me for not doing my homework are in fact only a sign of not doing your own homework. In science when arguing a case you state your sources which I have done, if the other party does not read the sources it is not my problem, it is theirs and states only something about the other person. I have seen no sources for your claims, no data to back you up, and no research. And that for someone who always wants proof of the other side to make claims?

From your own words you are making claims, so where is your data, where is your proof, what is it based on, thin air, your own personal experiences?

Here is another one of those data I have already posted which according to you have nothing to do with extramarital affairs.

extramarital affairs resulted in up to 20% of male offenders who killed their ex-girlfriends.

Do I have to explain to you what extramarital affairs means? To claim that when 24 % of the homicides are related to jealousy that if you are having an extramarital affair you are not running an additional risk is just plain stupid, especially if the data is there showing otherwise.

Really Pure read the links and the data, read the reports mentioned in the data, and compare the numbers before making claims. If you do not believe the data fine, do not argue with me over it, go and argue with the FBI and the Federal Bureau of Justice and the researchers who have made the reports.

I have given you source after source, statistic after statistic, have given you links to reports even stating the pages where to find the data and still you claim that I am not backing up my statements with sources. Well Pure, if there is something that has been proven by now is that while you claim you want to see proof and data and sources in reality you are only asking for proof in the hope there is none and when faced with overwhelming proof and numbers and data your only defense consists of, ‘but it is 200 pages I am not going to read that.’

Francisco.
 
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