Is it Trust or Self Delusion / Wishful Thinking

[Netzach]

I don't know if it's real or not. I know for damn sure it's not the same and it's not apples to apples.

 

[graceanne]

Ok, here's my question:

So lets say that there is a 'real' way to do BDSM. (I don't think there is, lets just say that there is), and only some people are 'real' dom/mes and/or subs. Is there some particular reason that they, who are 'real', must point out to the 'unreal' peoples faces at every chance? So, lets say that they are doing it 'wrong'. Who cares, if it makes them happy? Is all this some exclusive club, some clique, that you have to do a certain way, or you don't get to be a 'member'?

 

[AngelicAssassin]

I know for damn sure it's not the same and it's not apples to apples.

But where do you draw the line Netzi?

Granny Smith ain't Golden Delicious either.

 

[Esclava]

But where do you draw the line Netzi?

Granny Smith ain't Golden Delicious either.

No, AA - they are not the same. But Net has a point about the atrocious track record of RL relationships.

Having been on both sides of

• 
  1. a RL relationship that was a living hell I thought I'd never get out of; and
  2. an OL relationship that fostered the trust I needed to step back out into the world and get involved again in RL,

I KNOW about the reality of such trust. Without that OL relationship and the trust it developed, I would not be playing with real people in RL- much less returning to BDSM.

The line gets drawn when you realize, as I have, that the OL is not sufficient to meet your needs. THAT is when the search becomes RL. Whether you begin that search OL and continue it in RL is entirely up to you. It is whatever makes YOU happy - what ever meets your needs. And if your needs are completely met by OL interaction - who am I to tell you that your reality is non-existent?

Esclava

 

[dolf]

Ok, here's my question:

So lets say that there is a 'real' way to do BDSM. (I don't think there is, lets just say that there is), and only some people are 'real' dom/mes and/or subs. Is there some particular reason that they, who are 'real', must point out to the 'unreal' peoples faces at every chance? So, lets say that they are doing it 'wrong'. Who cares, if it makes them happy? Is all this some exclusive club, some clique, that you have to do a certain way, or you don't get to be a 'member'?

if there was a clapping hands smilie i'd use it now
xx

 

[incubus'_sub]

Whoa people, please. AA is right, the what's real debate has been discussed ad nauseum & that's not what I was asking.

Graceanne I always appreciate your comments & I too believe each to his own brand of happiness, but I believe it's a valid question to ask. Those who operate only on an online basis are usually the first to state that they have this great trust & they post about it very often. My question is simply how can it happen.

Discussion of an important issue should not have to be stifled for fear of somehow offending those who state their views (quite often) but are rarely, if ever, asked to explain how & why those views & beliefs came into being.

Agreed, real life relationships are very difficult to maintain too and often go wrong. My point is & has been all along that if real life is so difficult, how the hell can anyone ever develop trust with someone they have never & will never meet?

Mr Blonde is correct in his observation too. People who have never been to war will never understand it's reality & chiming in to a veterans' board with their experiences of computer war games would not be tolerated I suspect.

Esclava, you are the first to answer here who has the experience of developing trust online. How did this happen? Didn't you have niggles reminding you that although you wanted to believe because it was a need you had at the time, that the other person may or may not have been playing a game with you? Obviously a liar is not going to tell you that they're a liar, so really you didn't know for sure what they were up to or what they wanted.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

And if your needs are completely met by OL interaction - who am I to tell you that your reality is non-existent?

Esclava

Thank you, but i'm not coming down on the side of either is that much superior than the other. i asked Netz because she does both. That's not a slam because you answered, nor that i find your opinion less convincing. It took a little search, but i'd offer the following.

Click me.

Take a good look at Risia's first post. Try on Eb's surprisingly tolerant addition, and read how she started. For your cherry on top, try Shadowsdream's response.

Major fucking edit. i'll make it short and sweet. Would any of you say online, or real life, to any of those three, wishful thinking?

i agree some may indulge in wishful thinking, but i prefer to call it hope as long as they ground their feelings with a little pragmatism.

Once again ... this is the deep end. Some will prefer to stay close to the walls of the pool while others will do elegant half gainers off the 3 meter board. A lot of us will look on in appreciation of Greg Louganis equivalents successfully doing Olympic caliber BDSM off the 10 meter board. And an unfortunate few will bring a whole new meaning to pink belly. Don't be the dumbass that laughs, or sympathizes when they do. Afford them the dignity to learn, deal, and take a better shot next time.

And anelize, i hope you haven't changed your sigline.

chuckling ... and thank you incubus'_sub for deflating all the damn emotion right at the end.

 

[Mr Blonde]

There is nothing wrong with role-playing, but this section of Literotica is devoted to BDSM. It is about D/s, Masters and slaves, sadism and masochism, plus various other elements or introspection -- not general kinkiness or fantasies.

I'm never going to be a big time poster here, but I've asked very simple questions about real life relationships and I can't even get five replies. It's not because I smell funny -- we simply have a serious shortage of people who would even know what to say in such situations.

This forum needs to get back to normal BDSM or all the experienced people will simply lose interest in participating. It has been silently accepted for a while, because we do help newbies and some people began their BDSM careers with online role-playing, but right now we have too many people who've got post counts higher than the number of hours spent in actual relationships.

I am trying to be respectful about it, but this forum does have a defined purpose of being focused on face-to-face BDSM. It is a bad sign when I struggle to find comments for the Dom/me thought of the day calendar. Several people would be much more at home in a different forum. And I am not some grumpy old man bragging about decades spent in BDSM -- I am only a 31 year old guy, who (skipping a 4-5 year hiatus) has the equivalent of about eight years of experience.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

There is nothing wrong with role-playing, but this section of Literotica is devoted to BDSM.

PM inbound.

 

[graceanne]

So who gets to decide who's 'real' and who isn't? Who dies and makes someone else the bdsm god/ess that gets to decide who is special enough to be a 'true' bdsmer?

And then once we have one ( a bdsm god/ess ), what are they going to do, sit on their throne and throw lightning bolts at those who aren't 'real?'

 

[m wisdom]

...Didn't you have niggles reminding you that although you wanted to believe because it was a need you had at the time, that the other person may or may not have been playing a game with you? Obviously a liar is not going to tell you that they're a liar, so really you didn't know for sure what they were up to or what they wanted.

While it might be a little bit easier to play games online, people play games in real life as well so I would say that you never know, online or in real life. I trust people online the same as I trust people in real life because I see no reason they would lie more or less online.

 

[dolf]

In this forum, our focus is on BDSM sexuality as it’s played out in skin-to-skin relationships. We welcome those whose experience may be limited to online contact, or even to their own fantasy life. Anyone with a serious interest in BDSM should feel free to post their questions and insights on the forum.

this is from the sticky at the top of the forum.

i've been trying to find the thread but i suck at searches..but...i recall seeing a thread on what defines bdsm. i could be wrong but i think it covers everything from a passion for being tied up to 24/7 Master/slave relationships. s&m, people who enjoy inflicting pain & people who enjoy receiving pain.

 

[Esclava]

Thank you, but i'm not coming down on the side of either is that much superior than the other. i asked Netz because she does both. That's not a slam because you answered, nor that i find your opinion less convincing. It took a little search, but i'd offer the following.
<snip>

And I responded because I do both - right now. A comment I made to a friend about a month ago went something like this:

**I need a strong Dom/me. My locks can only be opened by a strong Dom/me. The one I play with is not strong, but I submit to him so I may "FEEL" the hands of one who demands his pleasure and allows me to submit to those demands. I have placed him in a position to dominate me sexually in order to train my mind to see another in dominance over my desires.**

I have progressed to RL because of the trust I developed OL. How did I develop that trust? How does anyone develop trust?

One way is - You Ask Questions - MANY QUESTIONS! If they are a playa or a wannabe, you will eventually trip them up - or their "story" will not mesh with things they have said in the beginning.

Another is Cryptic Self-Exposure - if someone has been successful in getting your attention - and they are who they say they are - they will figure out what you are exposing about yourself. If they can't or don't understand and you are important enough for them to want to, they will acknowledge that fact then expose a part of themselves - which is the FIRST building block to the trust that can be fostered OL. It is the "give and take" exchanges which lay the foundation of trust.

I'm not saying there are not people out there who can play the game OL or RL very well. I AM saying that you have to believe enough in yourself - and what you have to offer - to make them meet you at the table with their honest worth and intentions.

Esclava

 

[A Desert Rose]

There is nothing wrong with role-playing, but this section of Literotica is devoted to BDSM. It is about D/s, Masters and slaves, sadism and masochism, plus various other elements or introspection -- not general kinkiness or fantasies.

I'm never going to be a big time poster here, but I've asked very simple questions about real life relationships and I can't even get five replies. It's not because I smell funny -- we simply have a serious shortage of people who would even know what to say in such situations.

This forum needs to get back to normal BDSM or all the experienced people will simply lose interest in participating. It has been silently accepted for a while, because we do help newbies and some people began their BDSM careers with online role-playing, but right now we have too many people who've got post counts higher than the number of hours spent in actual relationships.

I am trying to be respectful about it, but this forum does have a defined purpose of being focused on face-to-face BDSM. It is a bad sign when I struggle to find comments for the Dom/me thought of the day calendar. Several people would be much more at home in a different forum. And I am not some grumpy old man bragging about decades spent in BDSM -- I am only a 31 year old guy, who (skipping a 4-5 year hiatus) has the equivalent of about eight years of experience.

Were you here 2-3 years ago during the cym/lancecastor wars? I know you're a busy man but if some night you find yourself at loose ends, do a search. It's mighty interesting reading.

Your post is deja vu.

As I've said to a few friends, I have always wished that this forum would fall somewhere in the middle but lean more towards the cym/JamesBlandings vision of things. Unfortunately, that has not been the case. One of her biggest concerns (if I can speak for her position) was that this forum would become a chatroom/cybersex/online roleplaying area.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I pulled up my handy-dandy online calculator and determined that 9125 posts (when translated to hours) = 380.21 days or 1 year and 15 days.

I have more than 1 year and 15 days worth of real life bdsm. Of course, that is MY definition of bdsm... it might not be someone else's definition. ;-)

 

[Kajira Callista]

OK... I've done both...r/l came first o/l second. Basically i don't trust anyone in the world..******* or for real until they prove to me beyond a doubt that i can trust them. Just the way I'm made.

A lot (notice i didn't make it one word like i usually do) of people have the ability to read other people ..******* and in real life. Some people don't have that ability. I'm not saying it is a bad thing, its just that if you don't have the ability to read others, then how can you understand how a person can trust someone online the same as you do in real life?

Is online the same as real life? It can be if you find a way around all the obstacles online has and get to the end result that is desired by a dominant. It takes a lot of time and devotion but to me can work just the same as real life. Are they the same thing? Nope..******* is more mentally intense. You can not rely on your other senses to do the work for you like you can in real life and a submissive having to communicate all the things a Dom can read by looking at her aren't there, which can be a thrill in itself.
Anyway, I'm not saying one is better than the other, they are very different and one may be for you while the other is not for whatever reason. Saying someones needs/wants cant be filled in a certain way because it wouldn't work for you is kind of silly isn't it? Sorta like a nilla chick saying...soft sweet sex does it for me and you saying well you have to be beaten first or its just not sex... or me saying i like to be spat upon and someone telling me that is not D/s or BDSM because they would never do it.

Disagreeing is one thing, debating is another...but putting people down or trying to slam them for what makes them happy is a form of censorship i see all too often on these boards as of late. Opinions are great things and we can learn tons from them. But telling a person that something that works for them is merely fantasy or is unattainable because you dont have the desire to do it is just not right.

So in a nutshell if you can trust online and it makes you feel the way you need to feel then how can it be not real and how can it be wrong?

 

[A Desert Rose]

OK...
So in a nutshell if you can trust online and it makes you feel the way you need to feel then how can it be not real and how can it be wrong?

Absolutely. I would never describe my friends online (such as yourself, dolly) as being unreal or fantastical. And I will never submit to a Dom who has not helped me develop a friendship with Him, whether that friendship began online or in real life.

 

[RJMasters]

Takes out red marker

In this forum, our focus is on BDSM sexuality as it’s played out in skin-to-skin relationships. We welcome those whose experience may be limited to online contact, or even to their own fantasy life. Anyone with a serious interest in BDSM should feel free to post their questions and insights on the forum.


We’re not a BDSM chat room - we are not *in role* here. - nor a general forum and don’t wish to be a place where chat room type BDSM protocol is either required or encouraged. For example - using upper/lower case for pronouns (W/we, I/i, My/yours) or for user names (Dom Sir and sub girl) - is not encouraged here. This is also not an appropriate venue for role-play scening. If your interest is on line sexual role playing, feel free to post a personal ad on the Literotica Personals Forum or start a Sexual Role Playing thread. Both forums are down the hall and to the left!

We do not enjoy nor condone personally directed flame wars or other off- topic material (excessive flirting or personal conversation that interrupts serious topics), and will not allow it to dominate our threads and permeate our discussions.

Again, welcome to the Forum. We thank you in advance for respecting others, and TRUST that you will comport yourselves as adults.


On second thought Inc, you might be right...about that wishful thinking thing.

Edit to add: One thing that is kinda of interesting, is that no where is it really encouraged to develop relationships through these boards....perhaps it is implied as something people might do through PM...just an interesting after thought.

 

[RJMasters]

So who gets to decide who's 'real' and who isn't? Who dies and makes someone else the bdsm god/ess that gets to decide who is special enough to be a 'true' bdsmer?

And then once we have one ( a bdsm god/ess ), what are they going to do, sit on their throne and throw lightning bolts at those who aren't 'real?'

Hmmm don't think its about who gets to decide who is real and who isn't...its more of having a community view rather than a me me me view. Its about balance of personal freedoms used in a responsible way so as not to trample upon other people.

Its about balance...and some give and take.

I know I could learn to give more. Or maybe think twice about posting something.

 

[RJMasters]

Were you here 2-3 years ago during the cym/lancecastor wars? I know you're a busy man but if some night you find yourself at loose ends, do a search. It's mighty interesting reading.

Your post is deja vu.

As I've said to a few friends, I have always wished that this forum would fall somewhere in the middle but lean more towards the cym/JamesBlandings vision of things. Unfortunately, that has not been the case. One of her biggest concerns (if I can speak for her position) was that this forum would become a chatroom/cybersex/online roleplaying area.

you know the link AA posted..its is interesting that cym later in the thread says..."I love you guys"...talking of course about some online friends here at lit. I had to smile at it, cuz though I agree with some of Cym older points...to express such a sentiment means that there must have been a long time of friendship which could only mean "trust" was involved at some level.

 

[RJMasters]

OK... I've done both...r/l came first o/l second. Basically i don't trust anyone in the world..******* or for real until they prove to me beyond a doubt that i can trust them. Just the way I'm made.

A lot (notice i didn't make it one word like i usually do) of people have the ability to read other people ..******* and in real life. Some people don't have that ability. I'm not saying it is a bad thing, its just that if you don't have the ability to read others, then how can you understand how a person can trust someone online the same as you do in real life?

Is online the same as real life? It can be if you find a way around all the obstacles online has and get to the end result that is desired by a dominant. It takes a lot of time and devotion but to me can work just the same as real life. Are they the same thing? Nope..******* is more mentally intense. You can not rely on your other senses to do the work for you like you can in real life and a submissive having to communicate all the things a Dom can read by looking at her aren't there, which can be a thrill in itself.
Anyway, I'm not saying one is better than the other, they are very different and one may be for you while the other is not for whatever reason. Saying someones needs/wants cant be filled in a certain way because it wouldn't work for you is kind of silly isn't it? Sorta like a nilla chick saying...soft sweet sex does it for me and you saying well you have to be beaten first or its just not sex... or me saying i like to be spat upon and someone telling me that is not D/s or BDSM because they would never do it.

Disagreeing is one thing, debating is another...but putting people down or trying to slam them for what makes them happy is a form of censorship i see all too often on these boards as of late. Opinions are great things and we can learn tons from them. But telling a person that something that works for them is merely fantasy or is unattainable because you dont have the desire to do it is just not right.

So in a nutshell if you can trust online and it makes you feel the way you need to feel then how can it be not real and how can it be wrong?

Really well said.

 

[A Desert Rose]

you know the link AA posted..its is interesting that cym later in the thread says..."I love you guys"...talking of course about some online friends here at lit. I had to smile at it, cuz though I agree with some of Cym older points...to express such a sentiment means that there must have been a long time of friendship which could only mean "trust" was involved at some level.

I think that's absolutely true. And I have stated all along that one can develop trust and friendships online or at least, I have. And most have been very long lasting.

But it appears we have more than one dialog going here among those who have posted to this thread. Several have posted arguments to support that online D/s is not (for lack of a better word) real and therefore, one cannot truly develop trust online. Many of those positions have a great deal of merit.

Others of us are discussing the direction of the forum and it's guidelines, etc. as it relates to what is "real bdsm or not."

By and large, there are some excellent ideas and opinions expressed in this thread.

Great thread, Incubus' sub. ;-)

 

[CutieMouse]

*****

 

[Netzach]

Thanks for ressurecting that thread and my comment there AA, I really do feel like I've become the queen of dirty talk from distance-domination.

I'm trying to pinpoint the things that break down my barriers, you know, what might make someone a face-to-face client after being a phone client, what might make someone a personal slave after being a client, that's really the issue, for me it's about breaking through those boxes and when I feel comfortable changing the boundaries of how someone in my life might fit.

Frankly it's gut-based, largely. I just can tell the difference between someone who isn't doing what I'm telling them to do at a distance and someone who would not dream of NOT doing something. I don't know how, or what mechanics there are to that process. I wouldn't forgo a safecall over it, but it's just there, a certain smell test.


People give off an energy. Maybe I'm just part honeybee and they are too. Maybe I'm really good at reading between the lines. Have I ever been horribly awfully wrong? Once, no twice. Out of like 20-40 times where I get to work with someone to any degree of consistency.


Mr. B -- I really want to say I dig your forthright and let there be flames, no BS. posts. Here and now.

As for why I didn't chime in on that thread, well frankly I met my most significant lovers face to face so far. What seems to be making it work with M is largely my flexibility, my being able to love him across a big spectrum of modes, not only out of Top space. That's what works for us, so far. I think we're still too in honeymoon phase to really have your question answered well, even though it's been 3 years almost

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Smile

Thanks for ressurecting that thread and my comment there AA, I really do feel like I've become the queen of dirty talk from distance-domination.

Quite welcome Queen Bitch of the Universe, and thank you for the further explanation.