Is it Trust or Self Delusion / Wishful Thinking

[incubus'_sub]

Thank you guys, for your interesting responses. You know, after all this time, this is the first serious thread I've started & I'm surprised how much courage it took to do.

I count people here as trusted friends too. I would take advice & guidance from them without hesitation. Trust in friendship is grounded though, in the fact that there is no ulterior motive in offering advice & support. Nor is there the emotional investment that is the desired outcome of a relationship.

Netzach, if I may ask, does the fact that your phone clients are paying their money for your services make them easier to trust? I would think that if they are prepared to put their money down then they would be unlikely to be wasting your time & theirs & therefore could more easily be assumed to be serious.

 

[Netzach]

I have no idea ....no theory.... less than I ever did now, what makes a honry man lay his money on the line. LOL. Some I would not trust as far as I can throw, others I trust quite a bit.

 

[incubus'_sub]

Thank you & Merry Xmas.

 

[Esclava]

Thank you guys, for your interesting responses. You know, after all this time, this is the first serious thread I've started & I'm surprised how much courage it took to do.

I count people here as trusted friends too. I would take advice & guidance from them without hesitation. Trust in friendship is grounded though, in the fact that there is no ulterior motive in offering advice & support. Nor is there the emotional investment that is the desired outcome of a relationship.

<snip>

Any thread which sends people inside themselves and elicits passionate responses qualifies as an admirable thread. I only have one comment on this particular quote.

Please correct me if I am wrong, but a number - quite a few, in fact - of the responses received on this thread were emotional. Emotional in that the responses exposed a bit of the poster's personality and passion in them.

IMO, to ask a question which solicits such emotional responses, one MUST invest their own emotions to start. Could there, perhaps be more emotional investment on your part - and on the part of those claimed as friends - than you realize? And doesn't that "emotional investment" count as a form of trust - even though it is online?

What happened to create that trust?

Esclava

 

[Amity]

Deleting, that is all

Deleting, that is all

 

[incubus'_sub]

Yes Esclava, in one way you are right in that I choose to trust the friends here. That trust obviously comes from my past experiences with others and belief that the people here have no reason to lie when they respond to a post. The emotions involved however are not the same as those I'd invest in a relationship with a potential partner and no I would never sit here & flog myself on their orders. No matter how much I wanted & hoped to trust someone I would never be able to get over the mental picture of an online Dom with half a dozen believing, hopeful subs all at various stages of self torture at the same time whilst he has a good giggle.

Actually my question has been in my mind for a while but was triggered by a couple of recent threads & then by a book I was reading about Randy Woodfield, the I-5 killer from Oregon. He used the phone rather than the net & was not BDSM but boy, did he have the girls dancing to his tune & promises. They got lots of attention from him & he got their trust. Luckily most of them lived. When they disappointed him in some way he tended to take it out on strangers.

Thank you Amity, for your input. As I have said earlier I don't believe that your online experience was true trust, but wishful thinking & yes you are very lucky to have found a Dom in your life partner.

 

[Amity]

Deleting, that is all

Deleting, that is all

 

[catalina_francisco]

if there was a clapping hands smilie i'd use it now
xx

There is

Catalina

 

[Esclava]

<snip>No matter how much I wanted & hoped to trust someone I would never be able to get over the mental picture of an online Dom with half a dozen believing, hopeful subs all at various stages of self torture at the same time whilst he has a good giggle.

<snip>

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what I hear is that this is an inabilty - on your part - to believe that there are male, OL Doms who are capable of sincere, one-on-one, exclusive relationships.

I agree there are MANY posers - imposters, if you will - online who do exactly as you have stated. But, I submit to you that there ARE honest, sincere Doms (and Dommes, as well) in exclusive online relationships - be it because of distance or other circumstances.

IMO, it would be nice if you had the chance to meet one of them. I believe it might open your box a bit more.

Esclava

 

[Amity]

Deleting, that is all

Deleting, that is all

 

[Mr Blonde]

I could not possibly disagree more with the last posts by Esclava and Amity. There are no experienced dominants who would be sincerely content with online relationships. Many dominants apparently use online dating as a way to locate potential submissives, but their goal is to move it to skin-to-skin and have a functional relationship. The only exception is that some real dominants -- usually dommes -- will indulge in cyber/phone play with paying clients.

 

[Esclava]

I could not possibly disagree more with the last posts by Esclava and Amity. There are no experienced dominants who would be sincerely content with online relationships. Many dominants apparently use online dating as a way to locate potential submissives, but their goal is to move it to skin-to-skin and have a functional relationship. The only exception is that some real dominants -- usually dommes -- will indulge in cyber/phone play with paying clients.

Please make sure you read what I wrote and not read into it what you desire to see.

I never said they were sincerely content with their online relationships. I DID say that they are sincere Doms in exclusive, one-on-one relationships - for whatever reasons prevent them from being skin-to-skin.

Where did I say that they are "sincerely content with online relationships?"

Esclava

 

[catalina_francisco]

There is room in this world for many different kinds of persons and many different ways of having BDSM relationships. I am not saying that online BDSM relationships are less or more than any other kind of BDSM relationships. Some find it very fulfilling, however for me and I think for most of us who have had real life experiences it can never fulfil us.

There is something about having some real flesh under your fingers, hear a woman scream in terror or ecstasy which a keyboard cannot give. Masturbating is nice but I rather would like to have sex with a partner now and then. When I was a teenager I enjoyed the calluses on my hands now days I would rather have them on my dick.

Francisco.

 

[Esclava]

There is room in this world for many different kinds of persons and many different ways of having BDSM relationships. I am not saying that online BDSM relationships are less or more than any other kind of BDSM relationships. Some find it very fulfilling, however for me and I think for most of us who have had real life experiences it can never fulfil us.

There is something about having some real flesh under your fingers, hear a woman scream in terror or ecstasy which a keyboard cannot give. Masturbating is nice but I rather would like to have sex with a partner now and then. When I was a teenager I enjoyed the calluses on my hands now days I would rather have them on my dick.

Francisco.

I don't disagree with any of this, Francisco. What I DO take exception to is classing OL Doms into this category:

...an online Dom with half a dozen believing, hopeful subs all at various stages of self torture at the same time whilst he has a good giggle.

That statement (and its ensuing visual) is a stumbling block for many people - myself included. I believed it until I met an exception to it. It has made me more aware of what to ask and how to spot the imposters.

That is my message and has nothing to do with what is real/unreal, right/wrong or better/worse than any one else's version of BDSM. Because regardless of how anyone practices, MY BDSM is whatever responds to MY needs - and those needs can surely change over time. The same holds true for everyone who claims BDSM as part of their life.

Esclava

 

[catalina_francisco]

There are online PYL that are honourable people and some of whom I even have met and talked and count as wise and very proficient in BDSM (almost as good as the Master himself, just in case, that is of course me

), but it is a fact that the majority of OL PYL are not.

You see for every honorouble OL PYL there are a 1000 arseholes, so we have to be careful of what we proclaim as the ultimate wisdom. I am not ever going to advise any person to get involved in a BDSM OL relationship without having at least some clear goals and being very careful.

To me BDSM is not an OL experience it is RL, like I said I am not saying that I am better or worth more than an OL PYL but I am saying that for me OL lacks, it is not enough nor will it ever be.

I agree with you that there are many honourable and honest persons involved in OL BDSM but there is also another side to OL which is not so pretty.

Francisco.

 

[incubus'_sub]

Esclava, the vision I described is a stumbling block & so it should be. I know you are sincere in your belief that your OL relationship is different & exclusive, but it remains possible that there are others believing the same thing about the same Dom, you will never know for sure. That said, if your correspondence with him is meeting your present needs then it really doesn't matter I suppose.

I have to agree with Francisco & Mr Blonde. A lifestyle Dom may use the net to meet potential subs, but would never be satisfied to remain OL. Chances are that if they are Domming only over the net that there is a reason, probably a wife & kids or that they are too lazy or socially inept to go out and put their words into action with real people.

 

[Esclava]

I'm not talking about MY relationship...

You have completely misunderstood the point I was trying to make.

I agree to disagree about this since you are bent on believeing something I never said. It also appears that the benefit of the doubt is non-existent for you in this particular scenario.

With that said, to clarify ONE MORE TIME: I believe - no, I KNOW - there are those who are exceptions to the rule that all OL Doms are imposters stringing numerous victims along, for their own pleasure, at their whim.

I NEVER said the ones I know are content with the OL aspect - nor that they would not make them RL if they could.

You have put words in my mouth and I still defend my point - because all I asked was benefit of the doubt - the belief that such a Dom COULD exist. According to what you have said, my belief is complete fantasy and I am deluding myself and asking you to do the same.

Agreement to disagree is granted and I am done.

Esclava

 

[incubus'_sub]

Esclava I apologise. You made several references to your own sucessful OL relationship and also mentioned that you had met a real, exclusive OL Dom and that's how you know they exist. I mistakenly assumed that they were one & the same.

It's also true that you never said that they were content to remain in OL relationships. Why then do they begin them with people who by reason of distance or circumstance will never become a RL partner? The penpal type of deep friendship & affection I can certainly understand, that's what we all do here is it not, it's the "do it yourself" physical aspects that boggle my mind.

 

[Esclava]

Esclava I apologise. You made several references to your own sucessful OL relationship and also mentioned that you had met a real, exclusive OL Dom and that's how you know they exist. I mistakenly assumed that they were one & the same.

It's also true that you never said that they were content to remain in OL relationships. Why then do they begin them with people who by reason of distance or circumstance will never become a RL partner? The penpal type of deep friendship & affection I can certainly understand, that's what we all do here is it not, it's the "do it yourself" physical aspects that boggle my mind.

Your apology is accepted. No, they are not one and the same person, but that doesn't matter. If I have said or done something that would lead you to believe that what I have experienced is complete fantasy, then you would have a valid point in your belief that what I say is suspicious. But I don't believe I have presented myself as unbalanced or anything I have said as fictitious; and my personal experience should be enough to allow the benefit of the doubt in what I say.

"Why then do they begin them with people who by reason of distance or circumstance will never become a RL partner? "

Because of my horrendous RL experience more than 10 yrs ago, without my successful OL relationship, I would not currently be searching for a RL Dom. I would not have figured out the "Keys" to my submission. I would not have felt comfortable stepping into the world of RL D/s again.

Master saw a need in me to respond to the submissive in me that was reaching out - wanting to be set free. He knew we would never be RL- I knew we would never be RL; but he also knew I needed a guide - a mentor, so to speak - to find my way back - and I was too timid and afraid to step onto the RL battlefield by myself. We talked for a month before he asked me if he was the kind of Master I needed. I said yes, because to deny my need and stay locked inside myself was not an option.

As far as the D-I-Y physical aspects? I have a question for you. Why do you think it is ALL for the Dom's pleasure?

For me, it was a way for me to remember what the physical felt like. It was not punishment (he had other ways to punish). It was pain to sensitize and enhance the pleasure. It opened up my desire to feel the RL physical. It enabled me to find a RL connection that will sustain me until such time as I locate the One who has been prepared to receive me.

I AM an exception to many rules which is why I can see and give the benefit of the doubt - even when I don't happen to agree with what has been said.

Esclava

 

[AnelizeDarkEyes]

If I've said it once, I've said it...hell, I don't know how many times. It's the relationship that makes the D/s work. And I can't have a relationshipwith someone who I've never met in real-life. It just doesn't work for me, folks.

Sure, JM and I met here. That's no great secret. Within 3 weeks, I drove 650 miles and we met IRL. We did the LDR for a year. LOTS of miles were driven by both parties because we HATED talking on the phone, and talking via IM. People need to be together, and need to relate to each other one-on-one. That's what people in relationships DO.

He moved down here and here we are, in a relationship. RT. I want to discuss how people make their real-time relationships work, how they live, what makes them hot, what makes them tick. How their sado-masochism works for them, what 24/7 is like for them....what Mr. Blonde was talking about. How can two people living through a computer screen speak to any of that?

I'm not speaking to the unreality or the reality of OL vs RL. I really don't care if the online folks feel that they are real or not. What concerns me is the lack of interest in realtime topics.

Oh, and AA? My sigline isn't going anywhere.

~anelize

 

[Esclava]

So, the fact that it was the OL "relationship" (that I'm repeatedly told didn't exist) that drove my desire to find a RL Dom was a fantasy - a complete figment of my imagination. Nothing I felt was real - nothing I thought was real - nothing I did was real.

What I don't understand is how people who are supposed to be so open-minded can be so intolerant of something they don't understand.

I thought perhaps I spied an inkling of possible understanding. I can see I was wrong. How can you beat your chest calling for tolerance from the rest of the world when you are unwilling to afford it to those within your own world? Or, perhaps you don't consider people who don't agree with you part of your world? No matter - I will leave you to your intolerance - I will not be back.

Esclava

 

[Marquis]

I'm sick of hearing all this "but, who gets to decide" bullshit.

This is how it works:

1. Everyone is responsible for their own opinion.

2. Those with the power will enforce their opinions.

That is who gets to decide. Everything.



On topic, I don't have to read much to know how I feel about this. Online bdsm is a joke. I mean are you fucking kidding me?

Christopher Reeve's wife admitted that not being able to be physical with her husband changed their relationship a lot. At least Christopher Reeve could move his fucking face! Why anyone would CHOOSE to be in an online relationship is beyond me. Luckily, I can't do anything about it.

 

[incubus_dark]

Esclava may or may not be back, but I will answer her question. No, I don't believe the online thing is confined to the Dom's pleasure, in fact I think it probably means more to needy subs.

I don't believe that that onliners are unbalanced either, but fantasy is fantasy, whether it's shared or not & if I want to read about fantasies I'll go to the stories section.

I lack neither understanding nor tolerance for a practice I don't share, but I am beginning to lose tolerance with the increasing number of in depth & elaborate posts describing it as if it had relevance to real life situations.

I made the suggestion in the thread started by the online Dom that maybe it's time we had another section similar to the Cafe for the onliners to compare notes. This suggestion came from Incubus who no longer bothers to come here any more due to the proliferation of the "talkers" as opposed to the "doers".

 

[incubus'_sub]

Oops, that last one was from me, but I'd forgotten that Incubus had logged on to read that particular thread. Sorry.

 

[graceanne]

Out of curiousity sake, if you are loosing patience with dealing with onliners, why don't you try and start your own group? I'm not looking for a fight, but they're really easy to start through yahoo groups, and then you can control who and what is posted. I'm sure that a lot of people here on lit, who are in 24/7 relationships would be interested.

Cause whether you like it or not, onliners are going to post, and their's nothing you can do about it. Lit is not going to stop them, and you getting angry with them is not going to stop them. As long as they consider themselves to be bdsmers they are going to be around. That's just the way it is, whether you like it or not.