Is it Trust or Self Delusion / Wishful Thinking

[Netzach]

Hm.

Well I talk, I think, I write and I do.

I live eat sleep breathe work and fart this stuff. It's my meat and milk. I try and have little hobbies on the side that are not BDSM and sexuality related so I don't go totally off my rocker.

The propensity to pop onto the board doesn't mean someone's having no life.

 

[A Desert Rose]

For those of you who weren't here 2 or 3 years for the last round of this discussion, this is a much more polite version of it. But the same song, nonetheless.

The end result of that was a pretty serious exodus of some very good and enlightened posters, who felt they no longer belonged here. Those people didn't just take a break, they never came back.

I have a feeling that might happen again but on a smaller scale this time.

 

[CutieMouse]

For those of you who weren't here 2 or 3 years for the last round of this discussion, this is a much more polite version of it. But the same song, nonetheless.

The end result of that was a pretty serious exodus of some very good and enlightened posters, who felt they no longer belonged here. Those people didn't just take a break, they never came back.

I have a feeling that might happen again but on a smaller scale this time.

I would really hate to see that.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I would really hate to see that.

So would I, but already I am seeing less and less of a few of my favorite posters. I'm sure some will chalk that up to it being the holidays and people being busy, etc.

The funny thing is that those who left the first time, including the moderator, were 24/7 - skin-to-skin practitioners. They felt this place had become too oriented to online D/s folks. They left and started their own message board and it is invitation only to become a member.

This time, I'm hearing and seeing it from those posters who are not in 24/7 relationships. Those who feel that they don't belong here anymore because their style of bdsm is not considered "authentic" enough. Or at least, that's how they feel.

I'm one of those who is not in a round-the-clock bdsm thing. Maybe some don't consider me "authentic" either. I know I live how I live because that is my choice.

People like to feel as though they are part of a community. It's a sad thing when they no longer feel they do. And when they feel their opinions and choices are no longer welcome or considered real.

Personally, I think there is room for everyone here. I'm a mom... I learned early on how to ignore obnoxious behavior and move on to more stimulating and/or entertaining discussions. And of course, we surround ourselves with like minded people. That is obvious by looking at the people we choose to befriend and those we do not. You can call it a circle of friends or you can call it a clique, either way there are several different ones of those here.

Everyone should feel they belong if this is where they want to be expressing themselves. No one should feel less real because, for whatever personal reasons they have, they don't live like I do or like someone else does.

 

[Kajira Callista]

I dont know where i found this link (probably on lit)but it is kind of fitting here.
http://www.cuffs.com/stories/discTexts/jonjacobs.htm

These forums have tons of education about reality that can be and im sure are very important to people entering this world. If they are starting their journey online, what better place then a site that offers R/L and O/L views. What better way to make the choice of what works for you then to see both. Some, not all, of the online relationships discussed here are closer to real life relationships then BDSM chat rooms and some are not. Same way as in real life some people have happy loving marriages and some live like room mates, who is to say what make each happy. Some can do the online roleplay...hell all here should be able to, we all have the ability to write and understand the feelings. But...for some that is enough or is safe for them at whatever point they are finding themselves in this life. Some need more, emailed tasks, webcam scenes, mics, to be where they want to be. And again they are happy. And others need it to be their life, all the time everyday, to be happy.
Same way as it can be said that online is not real...ppl online that don't know how real works can say real life is just a face to face roleplay ( i have been told that before). I know both so i do know different, some dont. Opening your real life relationship in these forums is doing a great service to people who chose the online thing, you are showing them what they can have if they want it but ultimately it is their choice to make as to how far they want to delve into all this and i dont think anyone...r/l, o/l, or otherwise should ever be told that what works for them...what gives them the feelings they desire, what makes them feel content and right is wrong or foolish.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Well I am not going anywhere. To me, to leave and start a new group is not the wisest course anyone could follow. This is a community where there is diversity in the kind of members and the experience levels involved. I am sure this subject will come up many times over and over again.

I am strongly opposed to fragmenting the BDSM sections of Literotica into even more smaller groups, where are we going to end only when every member has its own section and clique? I am real life 24/7, skin to skin, whatever you want to call it and I would never ever consider going OL, and still I feel very comfortable at Literotica just as it is now.

Online has been the starting point for many of us, some are very happy to remain online for a variety of reasons. For many it is the only possible outlet for their feelings and yes, there are many in the online community who take it very seriously and do it in a very honourable, honest and open way.

I do feel though that we all have to know what we are good at, online PYL are often very good in communicating over the internet and are very good in stimulating fantasy. We are more into the flesh, are much better and more knowledgeable in ‘hands on’ BDSM.

I do feel it is important that when a fleshy PYL gives advice on online BDSM it is stated that he is more into flesh and of course the reverse is also true. If you are an online PYL than yes, I will correct you if you make a statement that is dangerous in real life.

But it is this unique diversity of BDSM Talk or BDSM Café that gives us our own unique identity and has made me feel proud of being part of our own little community.

Francisco.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I dont know where i found this link (probably on lit)but it is kind of fitting here.
http://www.cuffs.com/stories/discTexts/jonjacobs.htm

Take this link with tons of kilos of salt please, I know Jon Jacobs he is as fake and dangerous as you can ever be.

He is very erudite and very good at convincing people but he is also very very fake.

Francisco.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Take this link with tons of kilos of salt please, I know Jon Jacobs he is as fake and dangerous as you can ever be.

He is very erudite and very good at convincing people but he is also very very fake.

Francisco.

lol wonderful, well editing the post is useless now. Fake or not, i dont think all he had to say was so off base or something you shouldnt at least read.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Well I am not going anywhere. To me, to leave and start a new group is not the wisest course anyone could follow. This is a community where there is diversity in the kind of members and the experience levels involved. I am sure this subject will come up many times over and over again....

Francisco.

It already has come up over and over again in the time I've been here.

This is nothing new.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Esclava may or may not be back, but I will answer her question. No, I don't believe the online thing is confined to the Dom's pleasure, in fact I think it probably means more to needy subs.

I don't believe that that onliners are unbalanced either, but fantasy is fantasy, whether it's shared or not & if I want to read about fantasies I'll go to the stories section.

I lack neither understanding nor tolerance for a practice I don't share, but I am beginning to lose tolerance with the increasing number of in depth & elaborate posts describing it as if it had relevance to real life situations.

I made the suggestion in the thread started by the online Dom that maybe it's time we had another section similar to the Cafe for the onliners to compare notes. This suggestion came from Incubus who no longer bothers to come here any more due to the proliferation of the "talkers" as opposed to the "doers".

He is not alone in that decision for that reason. I know I have brought a few real life people to the board, all who have decided it is based too much in the online realm for them to want to decipher what was based on actual real life knowledge and experience as opposed to an online only view of how a particular scene or act would feel and react.

In some things it has little relevance, but when someone begins to tell another how you wield a bullwhip and how it feels, the dangers etc., or how to do fireplay and how much it does or doesn't hurt etc., based on no real life experience, it can become very dangerous. I have seen this happen here and it is only my knowledge built over a period of time that this person/s has never done any of the discussed things in real life (and they have not shared that information in the post in question) that affords me the luxury of knowing the advice may not be that reliable....those who do not have that knowledge may act on the advice and pay dearly.

As I have said before, there does not have to be a division between the relevance of online as opposed to real life, but there does need to be as in all things associated with the world of BDSM, D/s or whatever label people identify with, to be responsibility in letting others know if they have actual experience or have based their advice or sharing on the imagined and/or read only criteria.

I have had an online Dominant mentor....he is the one who brought me to this point in my life of finding and submitting to Master for which I will always be grateful for....and he remains a good friend to this day. We shared many good times, I learnt a lot from him, gained a lot of support from him in various ways, and yes I looked forward to him popping up onscreen and was excited by the thought constantly, but as we both know it is different from real life experiences where pain is delivered by another hand, not my own, where bodies and minds connect where only minds could online. And yes, as you say incubus_sub', if he had not had his reasons he would not have been online looking for what he could have no other way. IME I have never met someone who is content with online only unless there was a reason why real life was not possible.

That being said, the online fulfils a valid need for those in that postion, and while it is not a matter of claiming one is necessarily better than the other, it has to be recognised they are different and often operate in different realities and criteria. Both sides can at times learn from the other, but there will always be areas where the experiences will differ significantly enough to require acknowledging that difference, especially in areas of safety and major steps such as lifetime contracts etc.

Another point worth remembering is that in an online forum such as this unless we have met others from here in real life, or have some level of proof they are real or who they say they are, how do we know who is really online, r/l, or otherwise. Sometimes it is a mtter of simply taking what you read, digesting it, applying common sense, doing some research from a variety of oither sources, then deciding what is going to work for you and what is not. Our recent troll has been a good example in showing how ready we are to accept what we read on screen as truth when in fact it is only a fictional character designed to amuse themselves.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

Hm.

Well I talk, I think, I write and I do.

I live eat sleep breathe work and fart this stuff. It's my meat and milk. I try and have little hobbies on the side that are not BDSM and sexuality related so I don't go totally off my rocker.

The propensity to pop onto the board doesn't mean someone's having no life.

LOL, somehow I think you would be always interesting whether you were off your rocker or not.

Catalina

 

[Amity]

Deleting, that is all

Deleting, that is all

 

[catalina_francisco]

For those of you who weren't here 2 or 3 years for the last round of this discussion, this is a much more polite version of it. But the same song, nonetheless.

The end result of that was a pretty serious exodus of some very good and enlightened posters, who felt they no longer belonged here. Those people didn't just take a break, they never came back.

I have a feeling that might happen again but on a smaller scale this time.

Sad but true ADR....the place should be big enough for everyone but this seems to be cyclical.....and I love your AV.

Catalina

 

[catalina_francisco]

So would I, but already I am seeing less and less of a few of my favorite posters. I'm sure some will chalk that up to it being the holidays and people being busy, etc.

The funny thing is that those who left the first time, including the moderator, were 24/7 - skin-to-skin practitioners. They felt this place had become too oriented to online D/s folks. They left and started their own message board and it is invitation only to become a member.

This time, I'm hearing and seeing it from those posters who are not in 24/7 relationships. Those who feel that they don't belong here anymore because their style of bdsm is not considered "authentic" enough. Or at least, that's how they feel.

I'm one of those who is not in a round-the-clock bdsm thing. Maybe some don't consider me "authentic" either. I know I live how I live because that is my choice.

People like to feel as though they are part of a community. It's a sad thing when they no longer feel they do. And when they feel their opinions and choices are no longer welcome or considered real.

Personally, I think there is room for everyone here. I'm a mom... I learned early on how to ignore obnoxious behavior and move on to more stimulating and/or entertaining discussions. And of course, we surround ourselves with like minded people. That is obvious by looking at the people we choose to befriend and those we do not. You can call it a circle of friends or you can call it a clique, either way there are several different ones of those here.

Everyone should feel they belong if this is where they want to be expressing themselves. No one should feel less real because, for whatever personal reasons they have, they don't live like I do or like someone else does.

Beautifully said ADR.

Catalina

 

[graceanne]

I'd hate to see people go too. But to tell the truth, at this point I'm more worried about the OL'ers going. And this thread is getting to be a onliners bashing thread. If people are so unhappy with this group having onliners then they should find one that doesn't. I'll miss their posts, but I hate them to be unhappy, especially if they feel that it makes it ok to go around and be rude to someone who disagree with them about what's 'real'.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I respect Onliners and Real Lifers, and both are necessary for our community. Ignoring the differences between the two is not only silly but also extremely dangerous. I think there is a lot of room to improve mutual understanding.

I am sure that there has been no intentional bashing of anyone here, this is a discussion and like in any discussion now and then emotions run high and words are uttered in heat. But we are all adults here and this is a public forum so when you posts here you can expect people to disagree and agree sometimes.

Francisco.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I'd hate to see people go too. But to tell the truth, at this point I'm more worried about the OL'ers going. And this thread is getting to be a onliners bashing thread. If people are so unhappy with this group having onliners then they should find one that doesn't. I'll miss their posts, but I hate them to be unhappy, especially if they feel that it makes it ok to go around and be rude to someone who disagree with them about what's 'real'.

As ADR says, we have been here, done that scene before. It doesn't gain any ground to suggest people go elsewhere, nor does it encourage tolerance. The board is a BDSM board which as stated in the forum guidelines is based on skin to skin BDSM, but does also welcome those who have an interest or online experience.

The basis and main focus though was intended to be realtime BDSM so I am not going to advocate real time players and those with realtime experiences begin leaving. The argument is empty IMO...for instance, as someone who is in a 24/7 relationship, we have had our fair share of criticism and denial of our choice of lifestyle as appropriate and/or authentic. Does that mean we should go elsewhere?(or you graceanne as you also say you are 24/7)....no. We live this lifestyle, it is our choice the same as it is the choice of some to choose to engage in BDSM on a scene by scene basis only, an online relationship, or nothing more than a wished for fantasy.

Reality is, someone here is always at some point going to object in some form to another's choice or preference...if that then means one or the other should leave, we soon arrive at having a board with no members to post, or at the most a board where no-one is willing to risk saying what or how they feel for fear of being told to get lost as they are not welcome.

Catalina

 

[A Desert Rose]

I would never advocate fragmenting this board further. In fact as you might well remember, I was opposed to the creation of the cafe... way back when. But that's history and all things have worked out as they should and seem to be going fine.

As Catalina says... there are guidelines in the sticky. The guidelines are specific, if anyone cares to read them. Those guidelines have been basically ignored in the cafe specifically, in order to allow people to feel at home there and post what they and many others seem to enjoy reading and posting to. Some of those threads have been extremely popular and are well liked by many posters.

If anyone read my post, I specifically said that it's the OL posters who feel the most alienated now. Or at least those are the ones I have been recently hearing from.

But you know, in the end people will stay as long as the entertainment and educational value is here for them. I know I will. I just hate to see some of them go into lurking mode because of fear to post.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I would never advocate fragmenting this board further. In fact as you might well remember, I was opposed to the creation of the cafe... way back when. But that's history and all things have worked out as they should and seem to be going fine.

Yes, those days were horrendous and we fought fragmentation then as it seems we still do. It is a shame this small corner is just a reflection of much of the world's inability to live side by side with others who do not practice their lifestyle to the letter. Is it really that hard to accept we are all different and that diversity is what makes it so interesting and alive?

Catalina

 

[A Desert Rose]

Yes, those days were horrendous and we fought fragmentation then as it seems we still do. It is a shame this small corner is just a reflection of much of the world's inability to live side by side with others who do not practice their lifestyle to the letter. Is it really that hard to accept we are all different and that diversity is what makes it so interesting and alive?

Catalina

Not for me.. I'm still here. ;-D

I accepted the changes. Life goes on and Lit is not my life. I don't see it as an inability to get along. Most of us are still here and so is the cafe. ;-)

 

[catalina_francisco]

Not for me.. I'm still here. ;-D

I accepted the changes. Life goes on and Lit is not my life. I don't see it as an inability to get along. Most of us are still here and so is the cafe. ;-)

LOL, we will survive....we always do.

Catalina

 

[Netzach]

You know what...

this is a forum.

Look back on the history of that word, folks.

Sure, the words have been critical. My doings have been critiqued too. If I left every web forum I was in where I felt less than adored some of the time, or my practices were never trashed by someone (who of course is an unenlightened booger face) then I'd be the wandering Jew of the web.

I've only left one web forum, it was too crowded with bigoted Gorean republicans for me to take it any more. Shit ya not.

 

[CutieMouse]

I've only left one web forum, it was too crowded with bigoted Gorean republicans for me to take it any more. Shit ya not.

I was told the other day that the rude gentleman I went out with last Thursday must have been republican... he probably was now that I think of it....

Thanks for the laugh Netzach.

 

[graceanne]

Well, you all have been here longer. If you say this shall pass, I'll believe you. I just hate for people to be unhappy, is all. I also don't want another split. I think it sounds confusing, and unecessary. I also would never, ever do anything to hurt anyone's feelings. If by suggesting that people go somwhere else, I hurt anyone's feelings, I aplogize. That was not my intention. I can't think of anyone that's posted here that I wouldn't miss seeing around the boards.

 

[Marquis]

Oh I sure can.