Is this service?

[Etoile]

WW Online
I lost 34 lbs that way. Highly recommended. Never been to a WW meeting in my life.

"older and wiser"
I'd just like to mention that these are two separate things. For years now I've seen people here use their age as a reason for their wisdom. Let's bear in mind that one does not necessarily depend on the other...there are wise young people and dopey old people, too.

is it service?
I have to say yes. You're doing what he's asked of you, therefore you are serving him. Is it helpful? Probably not. Was it a good thing for him to ask of you? Maybe, maybe not. Is it something that should be revisited? Probably. But I wouldn't feel any apprehension about "am I being a proper slave by doing this" if I were you. He asked you to do it, you're doing it, even when he's being pissy about it. That's definitely service. Perhaps not beneficial service...but it's service.

substance abuse and addiction
Am I the only person here who's watched Intervention on A&E? Because there are a lot of episodes where the person IS at rock bottom and still can't help themselves. In fact, the whole series is pretty much based around the idea that addicts NEED outside help. I know the "nobody can force anybody to change" line, and sure enough there are plenty of people on that show who refuse to go to treatment or drop out of the program. But the point is that there are a lot of people out there who DO get help because of loved ones, where they wouldn't have done so on their own.

mood swings
Everybody has mood swings. Nobody is 100% in control of themselves at all times. Everyone's entitled to a mood swing now and then. The theory that it marks someone as "unstable" would mean that we're all on very shaky ground.

 

[YourCaptor]

I doubt this will work or that he would do this.

Why wouldn't it work?

When people are sedentary the body does not function properly, it effects everything from brain chemistry to slowing down the healing process. Simple maintenance is not enough for the body, it needs to go though its motions.

He really should try it. I imagine that pumping iron and doing whatever physically exerting activity he likes is a hell of a lot more interesting then weight watchers.

It probably wont result in dropping all the gained weight, but thats not the point. The point is to get all the bodys processes firing.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Hmmm.. what I read there is:
Carbohydrates, more carbohydrates, more carbohydrates and sugar - but self-made. A ryeflour banana muffin is not at all good for someone who needs to reduce weight (the reason bananas taste so good is: sugar...). . Maybe it's great if you are allergic to gluten or dairy products, but that's it. And no, tofu and soya isn't either - it has more calories than a lean steak. And I know what I'm talking about, my girl is vegetarian, too - but I do the cooking here.

If you are in the mood, you can write down how your week looks like regarding meals and I will see if I can make any suggestions how to improve it.

Thankyou, that's very kind.

Breakfast
Shredded wheat or porridge oats with skimmed milk and a little organic maple syrup.
or 2 slices of wholemeal toast with marmite
or a banana

Lunch
Wholewheat tuna pasta
or a wholewheat tuna sandwich with salad and extra light mayo
or a salad with nuts, olives, humous (always home made) and balsamic vinegar
or a can of low fat soup

Typical Dinners
wheat free spaghetti bolognase with vegan soya mince & light sauce
vegetable curry with brown rice
vegan chilli con carne with soy mince and brown rice
baked potato with tuna & sweetcorn (no mayo) or baked beans
roasted balsamic veg with sweet potato
millet with mixed veg & coriander
salad with olives, pine nuts, humous, rye pitta bread and balsamic vinegar
ratatouille with a baked potato
vegan cottage pie
home made bean burger with mixed boiled veg and low fat oven chips

Snacky things
banana, apple, orange, fruit smoothie, handful nut/seed/dry fruit mix (unsalted), humous & crudités, home made sorbet, banana rye muffin, oat cookies (made with apple & cinamon, no added sugar, dairy free), chocolate oat milk.

Like I said before, he does deviate from this a little, especially if there are cakes around at work, he has lunch out with colleagues or whatever. Also, the corner shop is a lure.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

There is a WW Online program, too. No need to visit those meetings.

Thankyou, I shall get him to check it out.

Doesn't make sense. He gained the weight over years and decades. You will not lose weight every day. It's simple. It will go up and down. One day you sweat more because it's hot and you have a bit less, then the opposite way around. Weighting should determine the overall trend, not be used for daily number crunching.

I agree but L cites Tyr51's comment that he can't monitor himself effectively by weighing only once a week. I don't think I'll convince him to change this habit.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

If you're kinda OCD calorie counting is a great outlet, actually.

Very true and once you factor in fat and sugar content he gets really interested. L works very well with accurate, quantifiable data, hence the daily weighing etc. He knows he's going to fluctuate but he still feels compelled to weigh himself daily. One thing he dislikes about my home cooking is that it doesn't come calorie counted. I haven't the first idea how to even estimate.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

is it service?
I have to say yes. You're doing what he's asked of you, therefore you are serving him. Is it helpful? Probably not. Was it a good thing for him to ask of you? Maybe, maybe not. Is it something that should be revisited? Probably. But I wouldn't feel any apprehension about "am I being a proper slave by doing this" if I were you. He asked you to do it, you're doing it, even when he's being pissy about it. That's definitely service. Perhaps not beneficial service...but it's service.

Thankyou, that's pretty much what I have deduced. I am also becoming more aware that it really isn't for me to say how effective the service he has set for me is. It may be more important right now for him to know that I am actively supportive of him and have enough trust in him to do as I'm asked without argument. He does know what he should be doing and eating and I guess having me remind him prevents him from closing his eyes to the calorie content of a king size mars bar and saying 'fuck it.'

I'm not sure - I think that problems can often be solved from inside the dynamic - but that seems like it's what you are already doing ie: "please nag me"

I have some "please nag me" orders, about things, but the communication about how I then respond to the stimulus I myself asked for is in order - I think with enough communication and flexibility, an M/s dynamic can be OK and can stay a touchstone through some problems.

That's kind of what I'm trying to achieve. I don't think it will help anything for me to say 'ok, you've taken your eye off the ball and I feel like your mother right now so I'm going to take my slave hat off until you shape up!' I don't think it's the right move for us. I'm too young to die.

 

[Lynxia]

VelvetDarkness,

Being new here, I don't know you, so I'm sorry if I say something to offend you.

As I read your post, and the replies, I think that the main question that stuck with me was your title question: "Is this service?"

If your Master asks you to take responsibility for him, in any way - such as monitoring his eating habits, weight etc - it seems to me that it must shift the dynamics in your relationship. How can you be submissive and yet control and be responsible for him? Personally, I don't think it's quite fair to ask you to "nag" and monitor him, as it does change the dynamics and must be quite confusing.

How does it feel for you, as a slave/submissive, to have to reassure him, support him, monitor him, nag at him, and thus be someone he leans on? Do you get what you need from him as a Master when he seems unable to be that strong man you love?

No matter how much you love, respect and honour him, there is little you can do to change him, as any behavioural change must be something he wants, and coming from a place of behavioural addiction (longterm anorexia, now recovered), I know how you want to hand over the responsibility for your own actions to someone else, but still not be prepared to do what it takes yourself. Helping someone too much can in fact be a way for them to make you part of the problem, as they don't take responsibility for themselves and the change needed. It can be a losing battle to be there, to be in service, to be supportive to someone who is running himself down with lower and lower self esteem. One concern is also that if your Master continues to feel as bad about himself as he seems to do, that he may lose faith and respect in you when you keep assuring him that he is attractive and that you love him. Low self esteem can become very toxic and destructive, so for your own sake - be clear with your emotional boundaries and what you need, too. Surely there must be room for that in a consensual TPE relationship? And if the dynamics change, then perhaps you need to have a discussion about that, as it will change your roles.

Your concern for and service to your Master is beautiful, but I can understand your question.
~L~

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Why wouldn't it work?

When people are sedentary the body does not function properly, it effects everything from brain chemistry to slowing down the healing process. Simple maintenance is not enough for the body, it needs to go though its motions.

He really should try it. I imagine that pumping iron and doing whatever physically exerting activity he likes is a hell of a lot more interesting then weight watchers.

It probably wont result in dropping all the gained weight, but thats not the point. The point is to get all the bodys processes firing.

I agree but at present L's weight hampers him when it comes to stretching and weightlifting. Because he has been very ill, he has lost muscle tone and whatever he does, he's going to have to ease into it gently. He simply has no strength or stamina right now. He's not simply someone who has gained weight, he has been very unwell for a period of months. He has been convalescing and is basically starting again from scratch when it comes to exercise. It'll be a little while before he can start pushing himself.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

VelvetDarkness,

Being new here, I don't know you, so I'm sorry if I say something to offend you.

As I read your post, and the replies, I think that the main question that stuck with me was your title question: "Is this service?"

If your Master asks you to take responsibility for him, in any way - such as monitoring his eating habits, weight etc - it seems to me that it must shift the dynamics in your relationship. How can you be submissive and yet control and be responsible for him? Personally, I don't think it's quite fair to ask you to "nag" and monitor him, as it does change the dynamics and must be quite confusing.

How does it feel for you, as a slave/submissive, to have to reassure him, support him, monitor him, nag at him, and thus be someone he leans on? Do you get what you need from him as a Master when he seems unable to be that strong man you love?

Obviously, I love it when Master is strong enough to be secure in his power but I knew when I gave myself to him that there would be times when he was no able to be very dominant. He has been very ill and because of that I have been supporting him a lot but that doesn't mean that our dynamic has suffered per se. If a devoted butler nurses Lord Whatsit through a serious illness, does that suddenly make him the one in charge? The power dynamic we share does not require constant reaffirmation and I think that if it did it would be a bad thing. I do not need him to constantly prove to me that he is my Master. It's always there, implicit, in everything we do and say to each other. Similarly, if I was seriously ill, he would care for me in exactly the same way. That would not make him my slave.

Now that Master is getting better from being ill he is able to start addressing issues such as diet and exercise but his self esteem has been shaken by this because he has never been seriously ill before. I'm the one with chronic health problems and allergies. Usually L marches through life without a second thought. He has seen his GP more times in the last 6 months or so than in his entire life until now and that's without hospital appointments and treatments, which he loathes.

So I don't think he's doing badly under the circumstances but this weight issue is starting to demoralise him somewhat.

No matter how much you love, respect and honour him, there is little you can do to change him, as any behavioural change must be something he wants, and coming from a place of behavioural addiction (longterm anorexia, now recovered), I know how you want to hand over the responsibility for your own actions to someone else, but still not be prepared to do what it takes yourself. Helping someone too much can in fact be a way for them to make you part of the problem, as they don't take responsibility for themselves and the change needed. It can be a losing battle to be there, to be in service, to be supportive to someone who is running himself down with lower and lower self esteem. One concern is also that if your Master continues to feel as bad about himself as he seems to do, that he may lose faith and respect in you when you keep assuring him that he is attractive and that you love him. Low self esteem can become very toxic and destructive, so for your own sake - be clear with your emotional boundaries and what you need, too. Surely there must be room for that in a consensual TPE relationship? And if the dynamics change, then perhaps you need to have a discussion about that, as it will change your roles.

Your concern for and service to your Master is beautiful, but I can understand your question.
~L~

I am aware that it's possible for me to become an 'enabler' in this but I am watching both of us closely and I don't think it's the case right now. One reason I posted seeking people's thoughts is that it helps me clarify my own and gives me confidence that, at the very least, I'm not unwittingly making things worse. I am reassured that I'm not actively doing anything detrimental but it is hard to know what to do for the best.

One things that came to me in a pm conversation yesterday is that I have a lack of empathy in this case because I have never had weight issues myself. I have never struggled with portion sizes or been overweight or craved crap all the time. Sometimes I look at him and the bitchy part of me says 'how hard is it not to eat something that your body doesn't even need?' He really is hungry all the time and I just don't understand it. Similarly, I'm sure he looks at me on occasion and thinks 'skinny little bitch, how can she possibly understand what I'm going through? Who is she to think she knows what I should be doing?' and I can understand that as well.

I guess I get annoyed inside sometimes because when I see him eating stuff he shouldn't it just seems childish and stupid to me. He's intelligent enough to know he shouldn't eat it but does so anyway and then he feels bad about it. To me, it seems like a no-brainer but to him, it's a constant daily struggle and there's a part of me that will never 'get' it.

 

[Bandit58]

VelvetDarkness,

Being new here, I don't know you, so I'm sorry if I say something to offend you.

As I read your post, and the replies, I think that the main question that stuck with me was your title question: "Is this service?"

If your Master asks you to take responsibility for him, in any way - such as monitoring his eating habits, weight etc - it seems to me that it must shift the dynamics in your relationship. How can you be submissive and yet control and be responsible for him? Personally, I don't think it's quite fair to ask you to "nag" and monitor him, as it does change the dynamics and must be quite confusing.

How does it feel for you, as a slave/submissive, to have to reassure him, support him, monitor him, nag at him, and thus be someone he leans on? Do you get what you need from him as a Master when he seems unable to be that strong man you love?

No matter how much you love, respect and honour him, there is little you can do to change him, as any behavioural change must be something he wants, and coming from a place of behavioural addiction (longterm anorexia, now recovered), I know how you want to hand over the responsibility for your own actions to someone else, but still not be prepared to do what it takes yourself. Helping someone too much can in fact be a way for them to make you part of the problem, as they don't take responsibility for themselves and the change needed. It can be a losing battle to be there, to be in service, to be supportive to someone who is running himself down with lower and lower self esteem. One concern is also that if your Master continues to feel as bad about himself as he seems to do, that he may lose faith and respect in you when you keep assuring him that he is attractive and that you love him. Low self esteem can become very toxic and destructive, so for your own sake - be clear with your emotional boundaries and what you need, too. Surely there must be room for that in a consensual TPE relationship? And if the dynamics change, then perhaps you need to have a discussion about that, as it will change your roles.

Your concern for and service to your Master is beautiful, but I can understand your question.
~L~

I've read through the whole thread and my answer to Velvet's question would be "Yes".

I come from the perspective of being full time carer to my Sir, who has diabetes, renal failure (He is on haemodialysis) and various other ailments. We have been together for the past 4 1/2years and He was ill when we met.

I am responsible for getting His medications, and I help with dialysis and will be more involved in it in about a month when we go back to doing it at home. I monitor His blood sugars and suggest what insulin dosage may be necessary - more often than not we go with my suggestion. I wake Him to eat if He is not well, if He has hypos I take charge and bring Him back, I have saved His life more than once. BUT I am still His sub, and He is always my Sir who I love deeply. No matter what I do for Him, the dynamic is always there.

My needs are more than met. I have love, caring, affection and intimacy. Plus a lot of laughter

Velvet, I do understand how difficult it must be for you right now. I have no magic answers for you, but from what I've read you are doing a great job and kudos to you for asking the question - I asked it myself more than once and the answer that struck me the most was that if you and He consider it so, then what you are doing is indeed service.

 

[intothewoods]

Thankyou, that's very kind.

Breakfast
Shredded wheat or porridge oats with skimmed milk and a little organic maple syrup.
or 2 slices of wholemeal toast with marmite
or a banana

Lunch
Wholewheat tuna pasta
or a wholewheat tuna sandwich with salad and extra light mayo
or a salad with nuts, olives, humous (always home made) and balsamic vinegar
or a can of low fat soup

Typical Dinners
wheat free spaghetti bolognase with vegan soya mince & light sauce
vegetable curry with brown rice
vegan chilli con carne with soy mince and brown rice
baked potato with tuna & sweetcorn (no mayo) or baked beans
roasted balsamic veg with sweet potato
millet with mixed veg & coriander
salad with olives, pine nuts, humous, rye pitta bread and balsamic vinegar
ratatouille with a baked potato
vegan cottage pie
home made bean burger with mixed boiled veg and low fat oven chips

Snacky things
banana, apple, orange, fruit smoothie, handful nut/seed/dry fruit mix (unsalted), humous & crudités, home made sorbet, banana rye muffin, oat cookies (made with apple & cinamon, no added sugar, dairy free), chocolate oat milk.

Like I said before, he does deviate from this a little, especially if there are cakes around at work, he has lunch out with colleagues or whatever. Also, the corner shop is a lure.

This sounds delicious to me! But your M might really need more protein. This might be nutty, but I'm thinking he might just be craving sugar because he's not getting enough protein.

 

[Sharon_]

"older and wiser"
I'd just like to mention that these are two separate things. For years now I've seen people here use their age as a reason for their wisdom. Let's bear in mind that one does not necessarily depend on the other...there are wise young people and dopey old people, too.

[...]
substance abuse and addiction
Am I the only person here who's watched Intervention on A&E? Because there are a lot of episodes where the person IS at rock bottom and still can't help themselves. In fact, the whole series is pretty much based around the idea that addicts NEED outside help. I know the "nobody can force anybody to change" line, and sure enough there are plenty of people on that show who refuse to go to treatment or drop out of the program. But the point is that there are a lot of people out there who DO get help because of loved ones, where they wouldn't have done so on their own.

mood swings
Everybody has mood swings. Nobody is 100% in control of themselves at all times. Everyone's entitled to a mood swing now and then. The theory that it marks someone as "unstable" would mean that we're all on very shaky ground.

<snipping leaving the parts that seem to pertain to my comments>

~I~ never said "wiser". ~I~ said older, to be precise I said "longer in tooth"....and the reason I mentioned it at all is to provide a point of reference - same reason I mentioned personality type & orientation. It is a fact that older entails having more experiences, usually, that's just a function of living long; and it's experiences that generate wisdom. That's just the way it is. A person can be young and very experienced in certain areas which will generate wisdom in those areas. A person can be very old but too stupid to have learned from past mistakes, so never acquired wisdom.

I happen to have a lot of experience with enabling and addiction. More than I want, but that's life. At her age I was where she is (substituting 'God given right for husband to be head of household' for bdsm stuff). I ~wish~ at that age someone had been as frank (or harsh) with me. I would've still been in denial, I would've still made excuses and enabled but when the bottom fell out, at least their words would've still been in my head to give me a frame of reference to orient myself.

It's also a HUGE mistake to think because you've seen one alcoholic that you'll recognize it when you see it again. Not true. Just as there are many types of cancer, so it is with alcoholics (or even heroin addicts, for that matter - not all heroin addicts are prostitutes and thieves). Some alcoholics are two martinis/beers a night to de-stress. Some are binge on Friday nites. Some are leave it alone for weeks, then drink till they pass out. No matter what kind of cancer one has, no matter what type of alcoholic one is...the disease processes follow the same progression left untreated. Some get there sooner, some later...unless something else kills them first. As Geoff said, the end is it consumes and destroys...and not only the alcoholic, but the family.

A&E is tv. As Geoff also said, a very few recognize they have a problem and seek treatment before it destroys everything and everyone around them. The fact that the addicts on tv still have family & friends holding interventions leads me to think they still haven't reached bottom. Addicts swear they're going to get help - most of the time, it's just another con they're running. 'If you'll only help me, I can get thru this'. It's a ploy. It works because the enabler so desperately wants it to be so.

Mood swings - no, not everyone has mood swings...that's just not so. Many, many people - most I would guess - do not suffer mood swings, they run pretty much on an even keel. Mood swings are not depression; mood swings are not being down because it's the anniversary of a loved one's death, or up because you're getting ready to go on vacation. Mood swings are just that - unstable swinging up and down, often not related or in response to external events. They're volatile and unstable. It's a life, for the partner, of walking on eggshells - never knowing what kind of mood your SO is going to be in and how it's going to effect your day. Not surprisingly, it's also part and parcel of alcoholism. Thanks, but no thanks. More power to those who do it, I kind of admire their patience.

A dear friend of mine's wife suffers from those, God love him...he has more patience than I do. It's a burden for him. It makes his life harder when he has to have a grip because she can't/won't....he has to shoulder all the responsibility because she can't be trusted to behave/respond appropriately. Like having another child, in a way. He can never afford to have a weak moment because he can't rely that she can be his life preserver keeping him afloat when he can't.

I avoid entangling myself with that. Life's hard enough as it is. I need a partner I can rely on, that I can trust will hold me up on those rare occasions when I can't carry myself...just as he can rely on me, and that I'll be there to hold him up. Handing over control of my life (or portions of) to someone who is obviously, demonstrably not in control of themselves seems downright stupid to me. Only a fool would jump in the cab seeing the driver is impaired. Only a fool would drop their kids off at a sitter after witnessing the provider ranting and raving out of control. Love is awesome. Love makes the world go 'round. Sometimes love is not enough.

As always, my opinions. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Recidiva]

There is usually a stage or two in someone's life where they want to know if they're lovable.

Being perfect, being always right, being the best, becomes a burden if you don't know that even when you're flawed, wrong and at your worst, you are deserving of love, care and support.

If a person can't get that certainty, it can become a thought they can't overcome, they get stuck in, and they become that conflict.

They can't accept love and support because they can't give it to themselves, so they think the people that are giving it are deluded.

It's a normal crisis. It's a crisis everyone faces. It's a drama that people act out in different ways over and over until they can come to terms with loving and being loved without judgment. That you are worthy of love just because. For no reason. That in order to be healthy, you have to love yourself in order to have the courage to face the areas where you fail in life.

If you learn to love and support and care under the worst circumstances, that's at least one way that I know this drama can resolve. The question is answered. It doesn't get acted out over and over on a variety of issues.

Otherwise the fear and drama remains and the question always hangs over the heads of those who believe that love has to do with deserving instead of being.

It's difficult for highly judgmental people who believe in standards and rules and quality to believe that love is really just a choice. It isn't earned, it's given. You can't control whether or not someone else loves you because of your attempts at perfection. You can control whether or not you choose to love yourself.

And that turns out to be the key to solving this conflict and moving on. You don't lose your judgment or your standards. You lose the ability to win by being right. But you gain the ability to win even if you're wrong. You don't become mindless or chaotic, although that's another part of trying to resolve this conflict. You can become the drama of being entirely nonjudgmental and always having to love, and never being critical. Which is just the same problem in reverse. Knowing when to judge and when to forgive is what you get from dealing with this issue in yourself and others enough to recognize the symptoms and know it's just part of being human and not some incurable disease.

This is not a problem that can be solved through more and more discipline. This is a problem that is solved by understanding the nature of discipline itself, and how it is not the answer to why or how you are loved or choose to love.

Love is mindless. Being mindless and being flawed is okay, and in fact, is what you need to handle a great number of conflicts and stressors that otherwise might kick your ass day to day.

It's the key to forgiveness and understanding and all the things that an overachiever needs to balance judgment with mercy.

Spare the rod and spoil the child is not the whole truth. Spare the forgiveness and spoil the soul must become part of the practice or all you got ever is rod.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Wow. That was such an amazing and insightful post. It touched me deeply. Thankyou Recidiva

 

[Recidiva]

Wow. That was such an amazing and insightful post. It touched me deeply. Thankyou Recidiva

My pleasure. I'm trying to answer your question in as many layers as possible as they come up.

I wish you all the tools you need to do the right thing for yourself, for him, and for all the other people you meet in your life.

Love and forgiveness, like fire and hammers, are tools that can be misused and hurt people badly enough to be too scared to try them again. But they're the only tools that can be used to do certain things. Practice, practice, practice.

 

[Etoile]

I can't quote because I'm posting from my phone - bear with me.

I know you didn't say wiser. That was actually Velvet, I believe. What I was really aiming to say is that the idea of "I'm older so I know what's better for you" is what gets my goat. And this isn't just you, I've seen it on here for a long time, I don't mean it against you personally...it's just something that irks me. "You're too young to know what's best for you, let me tell you" is another form of it.

Perhaps I am just an optimist where you are a fatalist, but I believe addiction is not a reason to give up on someone.

I think you have a different definition of "mood swing" than some of the rest of us. To me what you're describing is someone who is volatile, but obviously people have mood swings that are not like that. You're assuming his mood swings are more drastic and dangerous than I am. Of course, neither of us knows what they're really like, so suggesting that he's not safe to be with is beyond what you and I can do. Isn't it possible, after all, that Velvet meant something different from what you said?

 

[intothewoods]

I'm not encouraging anyone to stay with someone who's on a downward spiral and refuses to get help for a serious addiction. I mean, of course. That said, I think we tend to, first of all, see addiction in everything, and second, marginalize and isolate anyone who exhibits some addictive behavior. It seems like the "drop that zero and get yourself a hero" speech should be saved for someone who's a real asshole, someone who doesn't take any responsibility for their behavior. I don't think we should jump to put anyone in that category because they overeat or overindulge in booze a few times too many.

 

[Sharon_]

I can't quote because I'm posting from my phone - bear with me.

I know you didn't say wiser. That was actually Velvet, I believe. What I was really aiming to say is that the idea of "I'm older so I know what's better for you" is what gets my goat. And this isn't just you, I've seen it on here for a long time, I don't mean it against you personally...it's just something that irks me. "You're too young to know what's best for you, let me tell you" is another form of it.

Oh, I agree. That's why I specifically said what *I* would/would not do/tolerate and finished with it being my opinion...and that opinion given only after being asked for it. Opinion based on a lot of experience, but opinion none the less.

Perhaps I am just an optimist where you are a fatalist, but I believe addiction is not a reason to give up on someone.

Again, my experience with more than one or two addicts/alcoholics - they say what they need to say to continue. By all means give them a chance, but action ~must~ follow words - Reagan had a policy he *must* have gotten from a 12-step program: Trust, but verify. Nearly all the time, it's just another con.

Not everyone spending an inordinate amount of time in the sun will end up with reptile skin and melanoma, but it occurs often enough to make it a general rule of thumb.

I think you have a different definition of "mood swing" than some of the rest of us. To me what you're describing is someone who is volatile, but obviously people have mood swings that are not like that. You're assuming his mood swings are more drastic and dangerous than I am. Of course, neither of us knows what they're really like, so suggesting that he's not safe to be with is beyond what you and I can do. Isn't it possible, after all, that Velvet meant something different from what you said?

I can only go by what she said. "binge boozing" and hiding it were her words, as were "Yes, he has mood swings but if I was in fear of my life I'd say so.", "He has depression and it manifests itself in negative ways but if he's angry and upset with anyone, it's himself. It is not me and as far as possible he tries not to take what I am convinced is clinical depression and therefore a biochemical problem as well as an emotional one, out on me."

It's the "as far as possible he tries not to take it out on me" that is disquieting....that and another comment about how she's used to dealing with it.

Once in awhile everyone has a bad day and is untowardly terse, but when it goes on for a period of time I think it's abusive and emotionally wearing on the recipient. I watched that silly new show last nite - Borrowed Babies or something, where they take these teenaged couples and give them a real dose of what it's like to raise kids. One of the girls had a full blown snit over really nothing, made a big scene - not surprising, teenager and moody going hand in hand - but she didn't stop until much later, not until the boyfriend coddled and placated and apologized to *her*. Then she was all smiles again - cuz she got her way, and made *him* responsible for and condoning *her* outrageous behavior. Granted, she was a teen girl but I've seen that scenario played out day after day by adults. It's not okay, it's not fair, it's not mature, it's not healthy for either party.

She specifically ~asked~ for everyone's thoughts - but for that, I would've kept mine to myself.

 

[Netzach]

Very true and once you factor in fat and sugar content he gets really interested. L works very well with accurate, quantifiable data, hence the daily weighing etc. He knows he's going to fluctuate but he still feels compelled to weigh himself daily. One thing he dislikes about my home cooking is that it doesn't come calorie counted. I haven't the first idea how to even estimate.

Then start doing it - get the basic charts that tell you - x many in a block of tofu, a small salad with nothing on it but greens, a bowl of strawberries, a BIG bowl of strawberries, etc. Again, if you want to. This shouldn't feel like your job and your fault if it doesn't work, but it's a good skill to have in general for yourself and for anyone you cook for.

A nutritionist, well the one my OA friend used along with her wife, would start him out with a scale with which to weigh his food when about to cook it, and would arm him with the ability to size up calories in most major foods he was eating.

I'd really enlist a nutritionist just even for a couple of appointments, it'll be someone who doesn't have to take the fall, a third party expert.

 

[Netzach]

That may be your reaction or someone else's reaction, but it's not the only reaction possible. For me it's just part of what I do. And it works. If I need to lose weight I decide to lose about a pound a month and then I tend to lose more and problem solved. But I set the goal, make it ridiculously easy to reach, and then I reach it.

Deciding it's indicative of a deeper illness and absolutely must lead to obsession is incorrect.

Which is my point I'm trying to make on this thread.

If even the aspects of healing or personal satisfaction all "mean" something absolute to one person, it does not mean that to another.

This starts to sound like arguments about how masturbation is evil and using your left or right hand mean something in particular. My basic concept is that putting so much pressure on the subject to begin with is part of the problem. Being overweight or out of sorts does not mean run like it's Armageddon.

It's health maintenance. Weighing yourself every day may be prone to obsession. It does not mean it is an obsession.

Everything can be done in a sane manner. Certain methods when done to the extreme are a problem, but the methods themselves in moderation are what need to be done.

Learning moderation is the goal.

And even moderation has to be taken in moderation.

I also weigh myself daily and I think I do best that way, I've never remotely skirted with anorexia or bulimia, and there's no one size to fit everyone, though it sure helps people sell programs to insist there IS.

If I had those types of ED's or tendencies to use not-eating as a soothing behavior, I sure the hell would not weigh myself daily, that makes total sense.

 

[Netzach]

Obviously, I love it when Master is strong enough to be secure in his power but I knew when I gave myself to him that there would be times when he was no able to be very dominant. He has been very ill and because of that I have been supporting him a lot but that doesn't mean that our dynamic has suffered per se. If a devoted butler nurses Lord Whatsit through a serious illness, does that suddenly make him the one in charge? The power dynamic we share does not require constant reaffirmation and I think that if it did it would be a bad thing. I do not need him to constantly prove to me that he is my Master. It's always there, implicit, in everything we do and say to each other. Similarly, if I was seriously ill, he would care for me in exactly the same way. That would not make him my slave.

Now that Master is getting better from being ill he is able to start addressing issues such as diet and exercise but his self esteem has been shaken by this because he has never been seriously ill before. I'm the one with chronic health problems and allergies. Usually L marches through life without a second thought. He has seen his GP more times in the last 6 months or so than in his entire life until now and that's without hospital appointments and treatments, which he loathes.

So I don't think he's doing badly under the circumstances but this weight issue is starting to demoralise him somewhat.



I am aware that it's possible for me to become an 'enabler' in this but I am watching both of us closely and I don't think it's the case right now. One reason I posted seeking people's thoughts is that it helps me clarify my own and gives me confidence that, at the very least, I'm not unwittingly making things worse. I am reassured that I'm not actively doing anything detrimental but it is hard to know what to do for the best.

One things that came to me in a pm conversation yesterday is that I have a lack of empathy in this case because I have never had weight issues myself. I have never struggled with portion sizes or been overweight or craved crap all the time. Sometimes I look at him and the bitchy part of me says 'how hard is it not to eat something that your body doesn't even need?' He really is hungry all the time and I just don't understand it. Similarly, I'm sure he looks at me on occasion and thinks 'skinny little bitch, how can she possibly understand what I'm going through? Who is she to think she knows what I should be doing?' and I can understand that as well.

I guess I get annoyed inside sometimes because when I see him eating stuff he shouldn't it just seems childish and stupid to me. He's intelligent enough to know he shouldn't eat it but does so anyway and then he feels bad about it. To me, it seems like a no-brainer but to him, it's a constant daily struggle and there's a part of me that will never 'get' it.

Are you a maso? I'm honestly not being an ass about this, I forget whether you are or not.

Just think "spanking" or "light but considerable endorphin rush" or any kind of pleasant, superficial, high.

That's what it's like. I'm one of those people for whom a day just isn't a day without cake - and the only thing that convinced me otherwise was getting as sick as I was and the only thing that's making me think otherwise again is weighing what I did before my Year of Clean Eating. Because refusal to engage in your addiction doesn't teach you anything marketable over the long haul. I have to agree with Recidiva again on this insight - the "dry drunk" is still the same person with the same lies and cons only with AA friends to pat their back instead of drinking buddies. Me not ingesting one iota of refined sugar was still me ruled by refined sugar.

It's just not easy to refuse your friends like that. Damn, food is pleasureable. Food is entertainment. Growing up where I did, restaurant name-checking was like liking the coolest bands.

If someone just baked the best vegan cake ever and left it in their kitchen with a note "enjoy!" would you have one slice or the whole thing, chipping away at it the rest of the day, thinking "I should be done, just a little more..."

I think you're one of the minority of people whose gut impulse answer might be the former.

 

[Recidiva]

Are you a maso? I'm honestly not being an ass about this, I forget whether you are or not.

Just think "spanking" or "light but considerable endorphin rush" or any kind of pleasant, superficial, high.

That's what it's like. I'm one of those people for whom a day just isn't a day without cake - and the only thing that convinced me otherwise was getting as sick as I was and the only thing that's making me think otherwise again is weighing what I did before my Year of Clean Eating. Because refusal to engage in your addiction doesn't teach you anything marketable over the long haul. I have to agree with Recidiva again on this insight - the "dry drunk" is still the same person with the same lies and cons only with AA friends to pat their back instead of drinking buddies. Me not ingesting one iota of refined sugar was still me ruled by refined sugar.

It's just not easy to refuse your friends like that. Damn, food is pleasureable. Food is entertainment. Growing up where I did, restaurant name-checking was like liking the coolest bands.

If someone just baked the best vegan cake ever and left it in their kitchen with a note "enjoy!" would you have one slice or the whole thing, chipping away at it the rest of the day, thinking "I should be done, just a little more..."

I think you're one of the minority of people whose gut impulse answer might be the former.

I grew up in a family with alcohol, drug, emotional and food issues. It took me years to detox. I still don't think I'm done, but I'm working on it. I've been on every extreme, completely convinced that THIS...THIS NEW IDEA...will fix everything.

It never does. Turns out a bunch of old and new ideas, combined exactly the way I need them, will work. But I have to figure that out for myself, and I think everyone has to. It's nice if someone who has exactly your temperament, genetics and brain chemistry has written a book, but so far in my case, no. I listened, I tried, but there are...side effects.

I tried vegan, I tried vegetarian, I tried frutarian, I tried macrobiotic, I tried Atkins, I tried...every new thing. Not even for weight issues, but because every system promised a cure for my headaches.

I still have to refine every day, how disciplined and how forgiving I have to be to get through the day comfortably without overindulging or underindulging.

If I screw up on that, then down the road I WILL overindulge and then slam into underindulging and then back again.

The only weight management system that has ever worked for me over a series of years that didn't result in me wanting to murder someone for a steak or a piece of bread or a piece of candy involves a little bit of steak, little bit of bread, little bit of candy, and ensuring that every meal starts with the good stuff and that I eat it not because I like to, but because I have to. Then I can have moderate amounts of what I like so I don't feel completely deprived of all pleasure. I do the basics to guarantee health and then I do some unhealthy stuff for pleasure. I even had to get over an aversion to healthy foods from being forced to eat ONLY healthy foods for years.

I had to give up the idea that I should love doing something I inherently dislike. For all the people that get huge benefits out of the perfect diet and the perfect exercise and the perfect life, I'm not one of them. And I'm of the mind that if I have to eat one more bit of tofu in a life, that someone's gonna die for it. Other people forced me to eat it, I forced myself to eat it. I don't like tofu. End of story. Even the smell now makes me nauseated.

And I still absolutely have to have some ice cream, steak or Hot Tamales somewhere in my diet or I begin to become an extraordinarily bitchy martyr who quickly is having no fun and thinks life is not worth living.

So for me I have to have some permissible safety valves and then I have to choose whether to be in the absolute best person I can be, but a hypercritical raging bitch, or a person having a decent time in my life, feeling free to do everything, but in moderation.

At least in me particularly, extremes of one thing creates cravings and deficiencies.

If you're allowed a little cake you can have it, and you can have that little safety valve. In my case that safety valve would keep me from being driven to locking myself in a room after buying 14 cakes and doing art on the walls in German chocolate and black cherry as an offering to the cake Gods.

That's the hardest part of addiction. Learning to not deprive yourself entirely, but only have...a little. It can be done. And I think ultimately it's the only way to really be a recovered addict and not just someone addicted to not being an addict in any way.

VelvetDarkness, all I can say is that people fed me lots of healthy food. At this stage in my life, I'd rather have some permissible freedoms and if someone I love tries to get me to give up chocolate for carob, butter for margarine and steak for tofu...

No. No way in hell. Mine. My brain. Mine. *growling noises*

 

[Primalex]

Okay, my very humble opinion so far:

First of all, it's a very good plan compared to what other people eat out there. And it looks like a lot of work. I wish I would have the energy to cook like this. And most people will have no problem with eating this - if the dishes come in normal sizes. Overweight people tend to eat more than they should though. You need to replace this additional food with stuff that has nearly no calories though and this includes no carbohydrates!

You replaced fat by carbohydrates. This is better than eating fat - but worse than not eating carbohydrates. Of course you read everywhere that carbohydrates are important, because it makes you feel full longer - but this is an overkill. Where are the fruits and vegetables?

Combine the breakfast with strawberries, pineapples, gooseberries, honeydew melon...(all these also have much less calories than bananas!). The bananas as pure breakfreast are worthless - there you have the lack of carbohydrates again. Combine it if you like. Less syrup, add the banana to the wheat. Voila. Even better if you use other fruits (see down below).

The same is true for lunch. Tuna is a great choice. Wholeweat pasta is a great choice. But without low calories stuff to get the plate full, it's not good enough to reduce weight properly. I have the 50% rule - 50% should consist of vegetables and/or fruits. Then you have spare calories for the sins later the day.

Typical Dinners
wheat free spaghetti bolognase with vegan soya mince & light sauce
vegetable curry with brown rice
vegan chilli con carne with soy mince and brown rice
baked potato with tuna & sweetcorn (no mayo) or baked beans
home made bean burger with mixed boiled veg and low fat oven chips

Of course, preparation and recipes varies, but those above would get the color yellow or red from me for now. Soya has similar calories than ground beef. Again, I can't see much vegetables in there and if so, they seem to play a small role. Carrots and celery are parts of spaghetti bolognase. How much soya is in there in comparison with carrots?

Why beans?

roasted balsamic veg with sweet potato
millet with mixed veg & coriander
salad with olives, pine nuts, humous, rye pitta bread and balsamic vinegar
ratatouille with a baked potato

These look good to me.

My overall recommendation is quite simple:
When you cook, ask yourself: Did I use a can of vegetables for this meal? If not, how can I integrate it? If yes, can I add more or will it ruin the meal? For tuna pasta, you can use peas for example. If the recipes do have this already and just the short name didn't show it: fine, then you are on the right track.

One last thing is: What does he drink most of the time?


Regarding snacks (bad = not daily):
banana - bad -> apples, strawberries, honeydew melons, blackberries, pineapples, oranges.. nearly everything is better than bananas... sad but true
orange - good
apple - good
fruit smoothie - really bad
handful nut/seed/dry fruit mix (unsalted) - bad
humous & crudités - depending on the dip
home made sorbet - good
banana rye muffin - bad
oat cookies - bad
chocolate oat milk - bad

Edit:
But snacks are most likely not the problem, if they are really just snacks. I would even say: make the other dishes with less calories and then add an evil chocolate bar on purpose. This is often more satisfying than bordering on the calories threshold and denying every pleasure.

 

[Netzach]

I would be a shit vegan. I will say that ditching grain carbs and getting all carbs from fruit and veg did wonders for my health in every possible way. The protein in my case was meat because I was going after a digestive issue, if your digestion is normal and you can use soy and beans more you have tons of options. If I did have to go vegan I would be eating giant portions of cooked veggies, a litany of veggie curries with 1/3 the rice that people usually pad them out with, or none. Aloo Gobhi that forgot the Aloo. Things like that.

In other words, fruit smoothie is FINE if you have no bread at lunch. Or rice at dinner. Or oat product.

It stopped working purely because I got well enough to want to *go out* again, and eat the fun stuff again. The fun stuff being anything other than salad and burger sans bun, because grain and sugar is in every single dish anyone makes for other people to eat.

Now I'm trying to find that middle path - I still eat at home in a fashion where a tuna pasta salad is transformed into a tuna olive oil lemon juice over frozen peas salad with no pain and suffering.

Oh, there's also a product which isn't bad compared to wheat pasta which is pasta made from lentil flour - has more protein, get more mileage out of it.

 

[Netzach]

Edit:
But snacks are most likely not the problem, if they are really just snacks. I would even say: make the other dishes with less calories and then add an evil chocolate bar on purpose. This is often more satisfying than bordering on the calories threshold and denying every pleasure.

This does work. Make it the darkest damn chocolate you can find and you'll find even the worst sugar junkie like me able to just have a square or two.