Phoenix Stone
Literotica Guru
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Hi Pure, missed ya around here!
Thank you bb and Pure for info.
Thank you bb and Pure for info.
La Cosa Nostra (This Thing of Ours)
- Thread starter rosco rathbone
- Start date
Phoenix Stone
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Netzach said:
I like the rhymy bit. Gonna finish it? A cunt to be blunt, i shall not deny... I'm thinking something with 'making you cry' might suit.
Netzach said:
True nuff. Now we need one for bondage, and d/s, w/o either. Somethng in Ms. perhaps, from the feminist sub? Something for the Hemp crowd on other uses for rope? Cant even imagine a SF Bay Area 'mainstream' alternative mag/rag publishing something like this. They would get SO flamed.
RR what was the reader response?
Not usually sure of things but I'd bet my car that the overwhelming local response would be condemnation and outrage mostly along the lines of 'abuse victims who don't know they are victims,' people who treat themselves using the totally wrong techniques, people who 'give comfort to the enemy' by supporting through their actions, the notion that 'all women want it,' a la rape fantasists argument. I can almost guarentee that there wouldn't be more than one or two responses in even tepid support, and that those would be defensive and apologetic.
Gonna check out how the local bdsm community is doing in choice advocacy.
rosco rathbone
1. f3e5 2. g4??
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Marquis said:
She's the best.
Pure
Fiel a Verdad
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Netzach said:
straight-girl-non-heteronormative
(and applied it to some awakenings, I gather.)
Goddamn I wish I knew how to use that adjective in a sentence.
But then again, who would understand me?
PS: Let me try:
My SO was on angel dust, I guess, and began a string of straight-girl-heteronormative ravings, which only ceased with the fervent application of my cock to her tonsils.
straight-girl-non-heteronormative
(and applied it to some awakenings, I gather.)
Goddamn I wish I knew how to use that adjective in a sentence.
But then again, who would understand me?
PS: Let me try:
My SO was on angel dust, I guess, and began a string of straight-girl-heteronormative ravings, which only ceased with the fervent application of my cock to her tonsils.
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RavenSpirit2k4
Domina della Ombra
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Phoenix Stone said:
This is the crux of the matter for me. The lady is far more of a masochist than I'll ever be, nor would I want a sub or slave who is quite that masochistic.
But the difference between wanting to get your eye blacked and fully consenting, and getting it blacked unexpectedly because you didn't have dinner ready on time (or whatever his excuse is tonight), is stark and absolutely huge to me. I've seen that up close and personal. I never want to see it again.
These situations may look similar on the surface, but they're not. Phoenix Stone hit the nail on the head exactly: That such things not be emotionally or physically coerced. Coercion, not just non-consent, are what make true abuse exactly that.
It reaffirms to me what I am. I won't do anything to anyone that they don't consent to, nor would I want to. There's no fun in that for me. It wouldn't make me powerful to beat someone against their will; anyone can slip someone drugs that knock them out and then torture them when they wake up chained down. Seriously - anyone can do that to anyone. Pointless.
She wrote that she can leave. Abusers don't allow their victims to leave.
RavenSpirit2k4
Domina della Ombra
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Netzach said:
Strangely, I remember from when I was 4 fairly well, but the years from I was about 8 through 15 seem like a blur. I guess I'm weird.
Netzach
>semiotics?
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Phoenix Stone said:
Condemnation and abuse is so 1990.
When I tell people more about me these days, when SM comes up in polite conversation, I get more "wow, really, how?" than "No, fuck, gross" as a reponse.
I was watching some braindead reality date show a few weeks ago and they sent the couple to a prodomme to teach her to spank her new dude. This was presented as a fun and saucy thing to do on a first date, have some prodomme teach you to spank and berate.
While it's a lot lighter than the content of the article, we're not scaring savvy hip folks anymore. We are so fucking in for a couple more years at least.
Pure
Fiel a Verdad
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Pagan S, said,
But the difference between wanting to get your eye blacked and fully consenting, and getting it blacked unexpectedly because you didn't have dinner ready on time (or whatever his excuse is tonight), is stark and absolutely huge to me. I've seen that up close and personal. I never want to see it again.
These situations may look similar on the surface, but they're not. Phoenix Stone hit the nail on the head exactly: That such things not be emotionally or physically coerced. Coercion, not just non-consent, are what make true abuse exactly that.
Without denying what experience may be spoken of, the point is not well put. PS seems to be saying that nonconsent plus coercion is what makes abuse.
Coercion is just force, physical or otherwise. It's disapproved of, and illegal, when applied without consent (except to kids).
It reaffirms to me what I am. I won't do anything to anyone that they don't consent to, nor would I want to. There's no fun in that for me. It wouldn't make me powerful to beat someone against their will; anyone can slip someone drugs that knock them out and then torture them when they wake up chained down. Seriously - anyone can do that to anyone. Pointless.
OK, "there's no fun, etc", but if you have an abused person, their will may not be a problem. They figure they deserve it.
She wrote that she can leave. Abusers don't allow their victims to leave.
While this is true of a certain crude character who imprisons his wife (as I've seen in some documentaries), it doesn't cover a wide range of cases where the abused party is a professional, out in the world, who returns home every night.
In simple terms, the content of 'abuse' and SM may NOT look that different, but depend on the somewhat obscure and metaphysical concept: Abuse is infliction of pain, harm, distress, etc., which is ultimately unwelcome.
Legal SM means that, at least in the larger picture, there is implicit or constructive consent to such acts-in-context (which have an erotic character to one or both parties) ; or, at bare minimum, there is an unwillingness to lay charges (and there is no basis for more serious related charges, e.g., relating to maiming or murder).
While the above points are concise, the issues are quite complex.
But the difference between wanting to get your eye blacked and fully consenting, and getting it blacked unexpectedly because you didn't have dinner ready on time (or whatever his excuse is tonight), is stark and absolutely huge to me. I've seen that up close and personal. I never want to see it again.
These situations may look similar on the surface, but they're not. Phoenix Stone hit the nail on the head exactly: That such things not be emotionally or physically coerced. Coercion, not just non-consent, are what make true abuse exactly that.
Without denying what experience may be spoken of, the point is not well put. PS seems to be saying that nonconsent plus coercion is what makes abuse.
Coercion is just force, physical or otherwise. It's disapproved of, and illegal, when applied without consent (except to kids).
It reaffirms to me what I am. I won't do anything to anyone that they don't consent to, nor would I want to. There's no fun in that for me. It wouldn't make me powerful to beat someone against their will; anyone can slip someone drugs that knock them out and then torture them when they wake up chained down. Seriously - anyone can do that to anyone. Pointless.
OK, "there's no fun, etc", but if you have an abused person, their will may not be a problem. They figure they deserve it.
She wrote that she can leave. Abusers don't allow their victims to leave.
While this is true of a certain crude character who imprisons his wife (as I've seen in some documentaries), it doesn't cover a wide range of cases where the abused party is a professional, out in the world, who returns home every night.
In simple terms, the content of 'abuse' and SM may NOT look that different, but depend on the somewhat obscure and metaphysical concept: Abuse is infliction of pain, harm, distress, etc., which is ultimately unwelcome.
Legal SM means that, at least in the larger picture, there is implicit or constructive consent to such acts-in-context (which have an erotic character to one or both parties) ; or, at bare minimum, there is an unwillingness to lay charges (and there is no basis for more serious related charges, e.g., relating to maiming or murder).
While the above points are concise, the issues are quite complex.
Marquis
Jack Dawkins
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Indeed. To complicate matters more, I often wonder how far apart feeling like one wants something and one deserves something really are.
In the D/s relationship I was involved in, our "sessions" seemed to be particularly spiced up when there was some motivation behind it. I would make up ridiculously strict and arbitrary rules which she would invariably break, resulting in the vengeful abuse and rape of her body. However, I think it was the concept that she was my whore, and thus deserved to be used and punished that really gave her a kick out of it. Likewise, it always seemed a foregone conclusion that a man would always WANT a slut slave, but I took extra pleasure in the feeling that these really were our roles, and that I actually deserved everything she was giving to me.
OK, there are lots of big differences between this scenario and that of an abused wife. But I ask you this, take a woman who puts up with abuse because she thinks she deserves it, then take away the abuse. Would she say she's not getting what she deserves? I wonder if she'd get a little hollow feeling in the pit of her gut and wonder why her man won't beat her when she deserves it.
In the D/s relationship I was involved in, our "sessions" seemed to be particularly spiced up when there was some motivation behind it. I would make up ridiculously strict and arbitrary rules which she would invariably break, resulting in the vengeful abuse and rape of her body. However, I think it was the concept that she was my whore, and thus deserved to be used and punished that really gave her a kick out of it. Likewise, it always seemed a foregone conclusion that a man would always WANT a slut slave, but I took extra pleasure in the feeling that these really were our roles, and that I actually deserved everything she was giving to me.
OK, there are lots of big differences between this scenario and that of an abused wife. But I ask you this, take a woman who puts up with abuse because she thinks she deserves it, then take away the abuse. Would she say she's not getting what she deserves? I wonder if she'd get a little hollow feeling in the pit of her gut and wonder why her man won't beat her when she deserves it.
Pure
Fiel a Verdad
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these things are seldom said, marquis, but leaving aside mayhem, forcible confinement, and murder, there is a lot of common ground, as you say, defined in terms of "I deserve this."
"I deserve this" is more or less equivalent to implicit consent, so the common ground of abuse and SM events (with the above exeptions) is consensual.
The line: "I would make up ridiculously strict and arbitrary rules which she would invariably break, resulting in the vengeful abuse and rape of her body." is a fine one.
Over in another thread is the debate on 'deserved' or 'undeserved' punishment, essentially the question of whether, for no good reason the top can do nasties to the bottom.
So: Does the bottom, in my terms 'ultimately welcome' those things?
Test: Look at the foot prints. Her tracks. If they always lead back to you, that indicates 'feel it's deserved' or 'welcome' or 'let's get on with it.' If they lead out the door, no turning back, then your brand of nasties ain't her cuppa.
"I deserve this" is more or less equivalent to implicit consent, so the common ground of abuse and SM events (with the above exeptions) is consensual.
The line: "I would make up ridiculously strict and arbitrary rules which she would invariably break, resulting in the vengeful abuse and rape of her body." is a fine one.
Over in another thread is the debate on 'deserved' or 'undeserved' punishment, essentially the question of whether, for no good reason the top can do nasties to the bottom.
So: Does the bottom, in my terms 'ultimately welcome' those things?
Test: Look at the foot prints. Her tracks. If they always lead back to you, that indicates 'feel it's deserved' or 'welcome' or 'let's get on with it.' If they lead out the door, no turning back, then your brand of nasties ain't her cuppa.
rosco rathbone
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Some choice reponses to the Donna Larsen piece:
the clueless goon
This is to Donna Larsen ("Apply Fist Here," 6/30): Listen real close. I was a "George." No safe words. If sub did not like it, she left. Same way for 30 years. I had one lady after another for 20 years straight. I had one sub; we went to the extreme. Weekly sessions pretty much without missing a week. No contracts, nothing in writing. She now has permanent damage and was in hospital for about a month, five years ago. I have learned that what I did for 30 years was just abuse. Period, that's it. I have since met and learned from true BDSM people what submissive is, what being a dom really is. Donna, join some BDSM groups; go to a meeting and learn.
Steve Loon, Manhattan
the (wheeze*hack*cough) "European-Style Dominate"
This is Master R writing, from La Domaine Esemar, the oldest S&M training chateau in the U.S. I just read Donna Larsen's piece on her black-eyed desires ("Apply Fist Here," 6/30). I would like to thank you for running the article. It was a refreshing change to see a well-thought-out piece of introspective thought published without the usual prejudice toward our sexuality.
Master R, Address Withheld
The Professional Nice Guy/PC White Knight
Shame on you for having published Donna Larsen's article "Apply Fist Here" (6/30). Am I to assume that such horseshit is what passes now for a memoir of sorts of an alternate lifestyle? Since when did being fucking nuts become an "alternate lifestyle"?
In her article, Larsen states, "As much as some feminists bandy about the evil of men, finding one who will actually punch you in the face is harder than they imagine." Really? Go tell that to Hedda Nussbaum (whose assailant, the convicted child-murderer Joel Steinberg, was released from prison last week) or any of the thousands of other women who are victims each year of spousal or domestic abuse.
Believe me, if Larsen wants someone to punch her in the face, I'd be willing to bet that she could find enough bad men to form a line around the block to beat, first, a path to her door and second, her. Do not tell me that in our land of plenty, a bad man is hard to find, or that malice doesn't live here anymore, because I simply will not believe it. Bad men are easy enough to find. Perhaps Larsen is just looking for hate in all the wrong places.
Here is what I do understand. I understand that an article provocatively entitled "Go Fuck Yourself" could have some redeeming social value if written, say, by a man entreating others to practice yoga daily. If, however, it were nothing more, say, than the (not particularly insightful) musings of an internet porn junkie, it would be the same sort of pandering to prurience that the publication of Donna Larsen's dark fantasies about being given a shiner constitutes. I would have thought you'd have been able to recognize such a distinction. I see I was mistaken.
What Larsen needs is not someone to punch her in the face. What she needs is for someone to knock some sense into her, and make her realize that her masochistic walks on the very wild side are not the forays of someone who has chosen to make misunderstood lifestyle choices that prudes like me could not possibly begin to comprehend. Rather, they are the compulsive symptoms of a mental illness that should be treated and cured, not exploited by New York Press. That Larsen, insofar as she authored the article, wishes to be complicit in the exploitation of her mental illness is unfortunate, if not entirely unexpected. That you allowed her to be by publishing her article is disgraceful.
Congratulations! You've succeeded in giving responsible journalism a black eye.
Matt Penn, Manhattan
The Ding-a-Ling!!!!
just got through reading your feature story (Donna Larsen, "Apply Fist Here," 6/30), and I have to say I am completely disgusted! The woman in the article needs extensive counseling. I was in an abusive relationship for five years and I did receive a black eye, and I will tell you and her, it was not pleasant. This woman is so lost she doesn't know right from wrong or what it's like to be in a healthy, loving relationship. For you to print this is wrong. Abuse is not love; abuse is abuse—period! I was too stupid and naive at the time to get out of my relationship, but I will tell you and her one thing, no man—and I mean no man—will ever abuse me again. I pray this woman gets the counseling she needs, and I also pray she finds real love and happiness as I did.
Brenda Lancour, Vermont
Bitter Ol' Mr. Seen-It-All
Here's my take on Donna Larsen ("Apply Fist Here," 6/30): She's bored (and boring), emotionally and intellectually bankrupt, has nothing to do in her life, isn't getting the attention she craves and her writing career is going nowhere fast. Then she gets the greatest idea she's ever had: to make up the sickest, vilest, ugliest, most frighteningly repulsive story she can imagine, one that will provoke the most extreme reaction possible from the reader. I've run across some brilliant put-ons in my day, but this one wins first prize.
How she must be laughing her head off at all the mail she'll probably get from those who read that piece and take her seriously.
C.J. Gelfand, Manhattan
the clueless goon
This is to Donna Larsen ("Apply Fist Here," 6/30): Listen real close. I was a "George." No safe words. If sub did not like it, she left. Same way for 30 years. I had one lady after another for 20 years straight. I had one sub; we went to the extreme. Weekly sessions pretty much without missing a week. No contracts, nothing in writing. She now has permanent damage and was in hospital for about a month, five years ago. I have learned that what I did for 30 years was just abuse. Period, that's it. I have since met and learned from true BDSM people what submissive is, what being a dom really is. Donna, join some BDSM groups; go to a meeting and learn.
Steve Loon, Manhattan
the (wheeze*hack*cough) "European-Style Dominate"
This is Master R writing, from La Domaine Esemar, the oldest S&M training chateau in the U.S. I just read Donna Larsen's piece on her black-eyed desires ("Apply Fist Here," 6/30). I would like to thank you for running the article. It was a refreshing change to see a well-thought-out piece of introspective thought published without the usual prejudice toward our sexuality.
Master R, Address Withheld
The Professional Nice Guy/PC White Knight
Shame on you for having published Donna Larsen's article "Apply Fist Here" (6/30). Am I to assume that such horseshit is what passes now for a memoir of sorts of an alternate lifestyle? Since when did being fucking nuts become an "alternate lifestyle"?
In her article, Larsen states, "As much as some feminists bandy about the evil of men, finding one who will actually punch you in the face is harder than they imagine." Really? Go tell that to Hedda Nussbaum (whose assailant, the convicted child-murderer Joel Steinberg, was released from prison last week) or any of the thousands of other women who are victims each year of spousal or domestic abuse.
Believe me, if Larsen wants someone to punch her in the face, I'd be willing to bet that she could find enough bad men to form a line around the block to beat, first, a path to her door and second, her. Do not tell me that in our land of plenty, a bad man is hard to find, or that malice doesn't live here anymore, because I simply will not believe it. Bad men are easy enough to find. Perhaps Larsen is just looking for hate in all the wrong places.
Here is what I do understand. I understand that an article provocatively entitled "Go Fuck Yourself" could have some redeeming social value if written, say, by a man entreating others to practice yoga daily. If, however, it were nothing more, say, than the (not particularly insightful) musings of an internet porn junkie, it would be the same sort of pandering to prurience that the publication of Donna Larsen's dark fantasies about being given a shiner constitutes. I would have thought you'd have been able to recognize such a distinction. I see I was mistaken.
What Larsen needs is not someone to punch her in the face. What she needs is for someone to knock some sense into her, and make her realize that her masochistic walks on the very wild side are not the forays of someone who has chosen to make misunderstood lifestyle choices that prudes like me could not possibly begin to comprehend. Rather, they are the compulsive symptoms of a mental illness that should be treated and cured, not exploited by New York Press. That Larsen, insofar as she authored the article, wishes to be complicit in the exploitation of her mental illness is unfortunate, if not entirely unexpected. That you allowed her to be by publishing her article is disgraceful.
Congratulations! You've succeeded in giving responsible journalism a black eye.
Matt Penn, Manhattan
The Ding-a-Ling!!!!
just got through reading your feature story (Donna Larsen, "Apply Fist Here," 6/30), and I have to say I am completely disgusted! The woman in the article needs extensive counseling. I was in an abusive relationship for five years and I did receive a black eye, and I will tell you and her, it was not pleasant. This woman is so lost she doesn't know right from wrong or what it's like to be in a healthy, loving relationship. For you to print this is wrong. Abuse is not love; abuse is abuse—period! I was too stupid and naive at the time to get out of my relationship, but I will tell you and her one thing, no man—and I mean no man—will ever abuse me again. I pray this woman gets the counseling she needs, and I also pray she finds real love and happiness as I did.
Brenda Lancour, Vermont
Bitter Ol' Mr. Seen-It-All
Here's my take on Donna Larsen ("Apply Fist Here," 6/30): She's bored (and boring), emotionally and intellectually bankrupt, has nothing to do in her life, isn't getting the attention she craves and her writing career is going nowhere fast. Then she gets the greatest idea she's ever had: to make up the sickest, vilest, ugliest, most frighteningly repulsive story she can imagine, one that will provoke the most extreme reaction possible from the reader. I've run across some brilliant put-ons in my day, but this one wins first prize.
How she must be laughing her head off at all the mail she'll probably get from those who read that piece and take her seriously.
C.J. Gelfand, Manhattan
Kajira Callista
Empty
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typical *yawn*
rosco rathbone
1. f3e5 2. g4??
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Netzach said:
You gave me a frisson when you used my alternate name!
rosco rathbone
1. f3e5 2. g4??
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Netzach said:
That's funny...reminds me of how I used to masturbate pre-15 or 16 yrs old. Laid two pillows end to end and straddled them, lying down, then fucked them. I'd always reach around the pillow representing the thorax and squeeze handfuls of it which in my mind were the "ass cheeks".
The interesting thing is that the only sex position I realy enjoy is a version of this, except with the passive partner face down. I may well have "imprinted" myself, in early jacking days, with a preference for straddling the fuck object as opposed to lying between the thighs as in missionary or parallel with them as in doggy and others.
I left so much seed on those pillowcases. And yes, I suffered rug burn quite often. We didn't have your classy 350 thread count Egyptian cotton shit back in the 1970s.
bridgeburner
threadkiller
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- Dec 5, 2001
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- 2,712
Amazing how many people will yak away in righteous indignation while the point goes whizzing over their pointy little heads.
-B
-B
bridgeburner
threadkiller
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- Dec 5, 2001
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- 2,712
I do get overloaded on the navel-gazing "Why am I the way I am?" stuff. I really just want to read the sex.
-B
-B
AngelicAssassin
Something Wicked
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- Sep 19, 2001
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Drum Beat
Now tell me what you do with her hands, and we may be psychic blood brothers ...
Not at all Gaston ... it keeps the object immovable, pun intended, from the waist down for a good irresistable force, read jack hammer. On top of that, pun intended as well, i enjoy ramming my lower belly into that tail. Makes such a nice smacking sound. If you get playful, you can mix up the pace to produce a good percussion section.rosco rathbone said:
Now tell me what you do with her hands, and we may be psychic blood brothers ...
rosco rathbone
1. f3e5 2. g4??
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Re: Drum Beat
I'm a big motherfucker and her hands usually just sort of flail and clutch ineffectually about, looking for something to hold onto. However, I DO enjoy one particular bondage thingey which is to cuff both wrists together tightly behind the back and then run a chain from the wrist restraints through a loop in the back of the neck collar, pull it tight and secure it. I do this on the rare occasions when I feel all formal and all last-european-chateau-of-dominance.
AngelicAssassin said:Not at all Gaston ... it keeps the object immovable, pun intended, from the waist down for a good irresistable force, read jack hammer. On top of that, pun intended as well, i enjoy ramming my lower belly into that tail. Makes such a nice smacking sound. If you get playful, you can mix up the pace to produce a good percussion section.
Now tell me what you do with her hands, and we may be psychic blood brothers ...
I'm a big motherfucker and her hands usually just sort of flail and clutch ineffectually about, looking for something to hold onto. However, I DO enjoy one particular bondage thingey which is to cuff both wrists together tightly behind the back and then run a chain from the wrist restraints through a loop in the back of the neck collar, pull it tight and secure it. I do this on the rare occasions when I feel all formal and all last-european-chateau-of-dominance.
rosco rathbone
1. f3e5 2. g4??
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Netzach said:
One of my top heroes.
Pure
Fiel a Verdad
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Nathan G,
Thanks for the material. Some url's would be nice.
Here's the one for Larsen's article:
http://www.nypress.com/17/26/news&columns/DonnaLarsen.cfm
Here's the one for the letters of this week on Larsen:
http://www.nypress.com/17/27/mail/the mail.cfm
I agree with bb; the article was not comprehensible to the those into the dogmas and slogans of so-called bdsm. The alleged Euro-master said too little to tell where he was at.
Notice that the most common tactic (e.g., of Loon and Penn) was precisely that used against the SM folks in the years 1850-1960: attacks on 'mental health.' Ironic. The new authorities remind me of the Puritans of New England: accused of sin and defiling the body politic, they fled. In Mass, they began accusing the dissenters (Hutchinson) of sin and subversion, and hanging them, as they had been hanged!
In re reading her history I don't see 'mental illness,' though the comparison with Dahmer is intriguing. What one sees is 'compulsion', something virtually never mentioned on these boards (where it's always cerebral questions: I've found a guy who does X, and I like Y, do you think it would work?)
Does anyone know what the fuck 'mental health' is?
Thanks for the material. Some url's would be nice.
Here's the one for Larsen's article:
http://www.nypress.com/17/26/news&columns/DonnaLarsen.cfm
Here's the one for the letters of this week on Larsen:
http://www.nypress.com/17/27/mail/the mail.cfm
I agree with bb; the article was not comprehensible to the those into the dogmas and slogans of so-called bdsm. The alleged Euro-master said too little to tell where he was at.
Notice that the most common tactic (e.g., of Loon and Penn) was precisely that used against the SM folks in the years 1850-1960: attacks on 'mental health.' Ironic. The new authorities remind me of the Puritans of New England: accused of sin and defiling the body politic, they fled. In Mass, they began accusing the dissenters (Hutchinson) of sin and subversion, and hanging them, as they had been hanged!
In re reading her history I don't see 'mental illness,' though the comparison with Dahmer is intriguing. What one sees is 'compulsion', something virtually never mentioned on these boards (where it's always cerebral questions: I've found a guy who does X, and I like Y, do you think it would work?)
Does anyone know what the fuck 'mental health' is?
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